How to become Outcome Independent using a Stoic trick

December 27, 2014
42 upvotes

A common question we get here is how to be outcome independent about wanting sex from your wife. If her main power has been closing her legs, and you came here trying to figure out how to make her open them, and then, the advice you get is “It doesn’t matter if she opens them”, it would seem like this community is useless. This is not true.

With this post I will explain how Outcome Independence works, and how to use it to get what you want.


I will use Stoic philosophy to explain Outcome Independence. Stoicism is Greco-Roman philosophy with the goal of accepting reality as the key to inner peace. This allows you to become a clear thinker so you can optimize your energy to virtuous causes that you can contribute to. Essentially, Stoicism is a philosophy of maintaining Frame. There are many aspects of it that apply to this, but for now, I’ll focus now on how to become Outcome Independent.

When confronted with a problem, a Stoic would ask if it is something outside your control, or in your control. If the problem is outside your control, then a Stoic concludes that since there is nothing you can do about it, so you shouldn’t worry. Accept that, and move on to other things. There is no point in wasting energy if you can’t affect the outcome. This is the reason, for example, I don’t even worry about the possibility of being struck by a meteorite as I type this. Yeah, it can happen, but there is nothing I can do about it, so why bother? On the other hand, if something is under your control, then, the stoic would say there is no reason to worry either because you can manage the issue! I don’t worry about breathing right now because breathing is right now fully under my control.

That is all there is to staying calm when facing problems: if something is outside your control, don’t waste emotional energy on it. If something is inside your control, plan what you will do about it, work hard at it, but don't worry more. So far, this is all very obvious, so if this was what Zeno, Cicero, Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius talked about, what is the big fuss?

Well, the fuss is that there are some problems that are not fully under our control, or fully out of control. One such problem is having sex with our wives. Clearly part of it is under our control, but she has a lot of power over the whole thing as well. This is why we worry so much about such problems: we can’t put it in the category of “don’t worry, I got it” nor in the category of “don’t worry, there is nothing I can do about”. It is a partial control problem, and we feel invested because we try to do well with what is under our control, but then we get frustrated for what isn't, try to things under our control that are ineffectual or backfire because we don't accept we don't have full control and often beg her in desperation. These partial control problems are the ones that make us waste energy, lose frame, and lose perspective. They lead to frustration and even resentment.

The Stoics noticed that there is one power that you have to conquer all these problems. This post is about that power. This is power nobody can ever take away from you. This power is the key to having Frame, Outcome Independence, passing all the shit tests, and getting all the sex you want.


"Man is disturbed not by things, but by the views he takes of them." - Epictetus

We have the power to redefine problems. Others might define problems for us, but we should always reject that, and instead define the problem in terms of what is under our control, and what isn’t. The way to always have Outcome Independence is that we have to redefine the problem in a way that we do not depend on others or circumstances to obtain them. Why? Because others are not under our control. So instead we change our perception of the problem such that it is all under our influence. This is Outcome Independence: we define the problem such that the other person has zero power over affecting its outcome. We are not subject to anyone in this way.

To make it more concrete, I’ll go now to the reason most find this subreddit: husbands wanting more/better sex from their wives. Here lies the problem. The problem isn't the wife closing her legs. The problem is how the husband defined the issue! The husband has NO power over this as defined, the wife has all the power. She can close her legs, there is nothing he can do about that. So the husband worries and becomes resentful because he can’t control her. The Stoics would tell the husband to accept he can’t control her and stop begging her. Instead, the stoic husband must redefine the problem into something that is under his control. Decide you will work hard to become the man women want to have sex with. For example, workout, improve your assertiveness and expand your social circles. This is all 100% under the husbands control. Eat better, dress better, become the best version of you. This is all under the husbands control. Why? Because by focusing on all that, the husband doesn’t have to worry about what is outside his control. But also, this redefinition makes it more likely to make him happier because he will become more attractive, which increases the likelihood of having sex either with the wife, or with anyone else.

The Stoics would advise /r/marriedredpill: Become Outcome Independent by focusing on self improvement, which is all under your control. Read MMSLP and have a Man Action Plan of self improvement. Don’t worry about your wife's actions, she isn’t under your control. This is a form of dread, but notice how powerful it is: there is nothing the wife can do to stop you from getting to your goal now of becoming a better man. You defined the problem now so she has no power over you, but you seem more powerful to her. You changed the power dynamics only because you redefined the issue. This sense of power comes from your OI, and it is incredibly attractive in itself! Nobody likes someone that begs for stuff, but everyone loves someone that is driven to success and want to be part of his life. Note that OI frees you from resentment because she can’t block your way to your goals anymore. This has a side effect that you also become happier with her, which also improves the relationship. And if she comes around and starts giving you head, great. But if she doesn’t, then you are ready to Next her for someone else. Independent of what she decides to do, you get the Outcome that you wanted. You don't demand she desires you, you just become a desirable man independent of her opinion of you.

This is the ultimate way to demonstrate Frame: you are the only person that defines the problems in your life. You do so in such a way you that the burden of overcoming them becomes all yours. You don't blame others, you don't beg to others. But you put all your energy on solving that problem you defined, and waste none in worrying about what is not under your control. Most people can’t do this. And those that do it become leaders, because others sense how they will get to the goal, and try to join them to be part of the ride. And all comes from a very simple mind hack that some dead greeks came up with. Don’t say you want more sex from your wife. Say you want to become the man women want to have sex with. This way the outcome if fully under your control!


tl;dr - Redefine problems always such that you fully control their outcome. This places the burden of overcoming them fully on you, but also, frees you from having to beg others to do what you want. This is Outcome Independence.

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