How to build boundaries during your transition

February 13, 2015
30 upvotes

Several people have been discussing about boundaries. The book NMMNG discusses how important it is to have them, and how very beta men lack them, but doesn't explain very well what they are and how to defend them.

Boundaries are what is important to you that you can defend. Boundaries encompass the areas of your life saying “this is my shit here”. By “my shit here”, I mean that this is stuff that is important to you and that you have the power and means to defend. If you can’t defend the boundary, you don’t have it. If you bitch but don’t defend the boundary, you don’t have a boundary.

Analogy "Ukraine": Ukraine couldn’t defend Crimea from Russian-backed forces. Russia took over the peninsula. Although Ukraine bitches and cries that this isn’t fair, for all intents and purposes in the ground, Russia has Crimea inside its boundaries, and Ukraine doesn’t. Is it fair? Who cares. What matters is that Ukraine couldn’t defend this boundary, so it lost the boundary. Ukraine bitching to the international community hasn’t done much to change the boundary because everyone knows Russia has the power to defend this boundary, and Ukraine didn’t.

It is similar with you. To understand your boundaries, you have to self examine, swallowing your ego, and really understand what you control, and what you don’t. Accept this, and from there, plan creatively on all ways you can defend the territory you want. And then consistently carry out the plan automatically. And if you can’t defend with actions a boundary, accept you don’t have the boundary, and change it to something you can defend. An example of a boundary you can’t defend: “My wife must respect me”. Why? Because as this is, you give her ALL the power to her over the boundary. An example of a boundary you can defend: “If wife is disrespectful, I’ll leave.”

Analogy "The Sign": Putting up a “Trespassers will be shot” sign is not defending a boundary. Defending it is shooting trespassers, or at least, shooting a warning shot or calling the police. Whatever action works. The sign in itself doesn’t defend the boundary, only actions do.

Boundaries are for you to decide. You can be flexible, but this must come from you, not in reaction to others. Remember, you chose the boundaries, but if people test them, always trigger automatic defenses. It is ok to plan an escalating way to defend the boundary, and try one thing after the other. But you must defend it.

Analogy "The King's Castle Alpha": You are a king in your castle. Your castle has strong walls, with trained archers. The entrance gate is well guarded. It is fine to let a harem in through the gate for your pleasures. Make sure they don’t carry weapons. Yet if women assassins try to run towards the castle castle walls in the middle of the night, your archer must shoot them. No questions asked, no nicely saying “please, go to the front gate and act sexily”. There is no time for the archers to ask you if you want these hot assassins scaling the walls, they must act automatically.

When you start enforcing boundaries, your wife might be upset and act up more. This is very frustrating. Just accept that it is your own fault: you gave her this territory because you didn’t defend it. Now you want it and she had internalized it was hers. It isn’t her fault, it is yours for not defending the terrain. It sucks for you, for her and for the relationship that you weren’t consistently defending it. So now you all pay the price of your irresponsibility. Be patient with her, blame yourself. Plan ahead escalating ways to defend the boundary, such that you find out what is the minimum level that will get her to back off. There is no point in overdoing it, after all, you don’t want to be an asshole, you just want to act in ways that defend the boundary with the least cost to everyone. Of course, this will mean doing things she doesn’t like, but don’t over do it to punish her.

Boundaries are what make people respect you. It makes women feel you are strong, reliable, and have integrity. Many of us, when married, start giving in our boundaries thinking that is what our wives want. I certainly did this when our son was born. This is terrible for us, for them, and for the relationship. Often, it leads to resentment on our part because of covert contracts that say that they have to respect our boundaries, and when enough resentment builds up, we have a victim puke. Bitching to your wife about how she is not respecting your boundary signals to her you don’t have a boundary, and only reinforces bad behavior. It is then your fault, not hers. Acting to defend the boundary with behaviors (not words) is the way to communicate the boundary in a way she understands it.

This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of boundaries. Our boundaries are for us to respect. Since we respect them so much, we defend them. Women understand boundaries because we defend them. If we don’t defend them, they think we don’t respect the boundary, so they trample it, often without knowing. It is our responsibility, not that of our wives, to have strong boundaries. Especially, when you start putting up boundaries, wife will test and test and test. Don’t get angry at her, this is how she understands the boundary is important for you. Defend the boundary consistently if you want her to get it. Bitching to your wife about how she has to respect your boundary is weak and useless, and is just you blaming others for your failure.

Analogy "The King's Castle Beta ": The archers in the castle of the Beta King see assassins coming in to scale the wall and start shooting arrows to drive them away. The assassins wait just outside the range of the arrows, frustrated. The assassins start taunting the Beta King calling him a faggot, because they can't do anything more. The beta king orders the archers to stop shooting, and gets on his beautiful horse, leaves the castle, and goes to talk to the assassins to try to convince them he is not a faggot. The king shows his nice horse and shiny sword as proof that he isn’t a faggot, but a bad ass, from a line of bad asses. The assassins kill him for being a fucking idiot and in the chaos take the castle.

This is what happens when you argue with your wife. You lose frame and perspective and do stupid shit that doesn't benefit you in any way. You are leaving your boundaries to exposed terrain, only because of your weak ego. Instead of arguing about your ego, become strong with frame so you don't feel insecure. Instead of focusing on her attacks, focus on your boundaries and defend them consistently.


Example in my marriage:

My wife used to make a false accusation that used to really get to me. I wanted her to stop it. When she used to say it, I would act all hurt, and argue with her to stop it, and she would just take more stabs at me. For days I would bitch about how she can’t do it. She never changed. If anything, she did it more. I kept talking about my boundary, but I wasn’t defending it, so I signal to her with actions that this territory was not worth defending for me. My words didn’t matter, if anything, they made me look even weaker. I was the king outside the boundaries, being stabbed by assassins, stupidly trying to convince them that they must stop because I am the king.

After failing at stopping her false accusation, I felt a lot of resentment, which only made me weaker. It was only when I planned an action to my responses to her that I made progress. I decided that if she said this, I would say “I’m not going to continue this conversation.” If bad behavior continued, I would escalate level of defenses. For me, this was just leaving the room to do something productive for me, or depending on the gravity of the situation, leave the house to workout, meditate, walk or get a beer.

The first few times I did this, she went nuts. She was used to me not having this boundary, so she was trying to see if she could scare me into backing off. It was afraid, I admit. But I had planned ahead my defenses, and decided I must carry them out regardless. So I ended up leaving the house for a few hours. First few times I felt a lot of guilt. But since I had planned ahead my defenses, I knew that I wasn’t being a hot head, I had planned rationally this. With time, it got easier to defend the boundaries. Heck, most times it feels really good now. She wants to piss me off? Ha, she lost, I’m not going to engage, and I have time for myself. She lost because she wanted me to react, I win because I get good time for myself.

I didn’t even have to explain why I was defending this, she knew what she did. There is no point in telling the assassin that the archers and walls mean a boundary. Only actions matter.

Now, she stopped with the false accusation. Last time she say it, I just did simple warning, and she stopped! She went away, and then apologized for what she said. Amazing. I didn't threaten, I just told her to stop, and since I had defended the boundary with actions consistently, I trained her I was serious so she responded well to my reminder of my actions. Pavlov's dog shit. Before she never stopped when I asked her, and she never apologized. But since I acted consistently, I trained her that this was serious. This is respect.


Key points:

Boundaries are the territory you can and want to defend. If you don’t defend it, it is your own fucking fault, not the fault of your wife. If you can’t defend it, then you must accept it and change your boundaries. Being a bitch about it only make things worse. Be strategic and realistic. As you start tp have boundaries, you will rock the boat, because you are taking stuff she understood you had given her. Don’t feel resentment, but instead, be understanding that it was your weakness that made things harder for everyone. Yet, consistently defend the boundaries with action (not words) as it is the only way to make her understand. Being consistent is good for you and for her and the relationship in the long term, although it might seem like it adds conflict in the short term.

Boundaries are for YOU to respect and defend. It is hard at first, but if you defend them consistently, your wife will respect you more in the end.


Gold? Thanks stranger!

TheRedArchive is an archive of Red Pill content, including various subreddits and blogs. This post has been archived from the subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill.

/r/MarriedRedPill archive

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

Post Information
Similar Posts
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post and advice, especially for those who are trying to establish their territory in the relationship. Three points really stuck out to me.

You can be flexible, but this must come from you, not in reaction to others.

Too often men are avoiding conflict. They will tailor their response and boundaries to avoid any sort of disagreement or conflict of any source. This is completely unacceptable.

We all would love it if things just worked out the way they are supposed to, but that's not how life works. Choosing the path of least resistance is unmanly and is not going to lead to you achieving your full potential as a man.

There is no shortcut to any place worth going. You must not only establish your boundaries without fear of confrontation, but more importantly, like /u/ strategos_autokrator said, "you must defend it."

It isn’t her fault, it is yours for not defending the terrain.

There have been too many people bitching about their wives being bitches and completely ruthless when it comes to leading the relationship or 'driving the ship'.

My immediate response is stop being completely weaksauce and blaming your wife for your mediocre performance as a husband!! but alas, this would not be productive.

So, I will put it like this.

How would you feel as a man, if your job was to be the woman in the relationship? If you were in the role of wife, I bet you would build some serious fucking resentment and just become a shell of a man.

This is what you're doing to your wife

She does not want to be wearing the pants. Guys come here and talk about how they "Know they've been a beta fuck and not filled their role" and seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that by taking this path of weakness for so long, their wives have been forced into that 'Alpha' role. They have every right to be fucking intolerable, they've been forced to play 'Man' for however many months/years their husband was off in IDon'tLikeTheHardPath land.

Take a BIG bite of humble pie and accept that it is entirely your fault and that you can only redeem your position through action. You can talk all day and Post on TRP and MRP, but without action, words are just words.

The king shows his nice horse and sword as proof of how he isn’t a faggot, but a bad ass. The assassins kill him for being a fucking idiot

This is fucking hilarious.

[–]RBuddDwyer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Too often men are avoiding conflict. They will tailor their response and boundaries to avoid any sort of disagreement or conflict of any source. This is completely unacceptable.

You must embrace the conflict. It is your birthright as a man to confront and do battle with whatever stands between you and your goal. She cannot win. She is the submissive sex. You must stand your ground and fight until she submits to you.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

stop being completely weaksauce and blaming your wife for your mediocre performance as a husband!!

MRP in one sentence.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Too often men are avoiding conflict. They will tailor their response and boundaries to avoid any sort of disagreement or conflict of any source. This is completely unacceptable.

This is a very important point. It is very easy to hamster away our boundaries. The tell-tale sign of this is that it builds resentment. This resentment comes from us blaming others for our decision to not defend our boundaries. Is it stressful to defend boundaries at the beginning? Sure. But that is what you must do. Don't chicken out and blame others if you don't do it.

Besides, if we do it consistently, I promise it gets easier with time. You respect yourself more, and your wife respects you more.

My wife fought fiercely many of the boundary, threatening separation. I stayed strong and didn't give in. Now, her hamster has convinced her that some of those were her idea all along. She fought for days against them, and now she rationalize that it was her idea all along. I know better than to engage the hamster, so I just thank the hamster for convincing my wife so strongly of my boundaries, that she agrees she wanted them as well.

[–]LifeChoiceReflector-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the advice. How do I respond when she asks why I'm suddenly setting these boundaries when I had never set such things in many years? Do I owe her an explanation? If so, what?

[–]LaV-Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am still pretty new to MRP, so others may correct me on this, but... My marriage had gotten to the point where it was just tollerable periods between fights. Pre-RP I had identified that she had very little respect for me. I had stated as much several times. After implementing RP she actually asked about it in a round about way. I told her that she did not respect me and I had blamed her for it, when in fact her not respecting me was actually my fault and something I needed to fix; thus the changes.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You do owe her an explanation of sorts. She isn't some chick, this is your wife of x amount of years. Flipping a switch and saying I'm running the show now isn't going to fly.

Start taking action for your self-improvement. Start lifting, reading, building, getting a hobby, etc. When she questions or challenges you on these changes, you stand your ground. "I lift because there is no reason to suffer preventable health complications and i want to look good naked and at the beach."

Similar answer for each endeavor.

When she drops the shit tests, and she will - respond accordingly.

Do not back down. She wants to see if these changes are just a fad or if you have really taken charge of your life.

The takeaway, explain that you're sick of what you've become and have decided to take action. Or, say nothing at all and when she crosses the line swiftly let her know that it won't be tolerated, ever again.

You know your woman, so proceed on the best manner for your situation. But do not retreat and do not give up the campaign of becoming your Family's Alpha.

[–]LifeChoiceReflector-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you!

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are for your well being. Acknowledge it is hard for her, but this is something you need.

Never say a boundary is for her. That is a lie. Boundaries are what you can enforce to satisfy your needs.

Example: "Why do you go to the gym so much now? We hardly watch TV together."

Bad reason: "Because you are bitchy and I want to teach you to respect me."

Good Reason: "Because I like going to the gym, it is important to me. I also want to budget more quality time together as well."

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How do I respond when she asks why I'm suddenly setting these boundaries when I had never set such things in many years? Do I owe her an explanation? If so, what?

You don't owe her an answer.

For you, specifically, I would answer "Because I've finally realized how much of a nagging, nosy bitch you are. This is me being tired about it." Very nuclear. Say it. Mean it. Get ready for fall out.

This answer is specifically for you because your wife sounds like a pain in the ass from what you've described. (This facet is very much your fault, btw, but I don't think it'd hurt to call her out on it even with it being your fault. I mean, you're trying to change after all, right? So why not give her a kick in the ass to do the same?)

[–]RBuddDwyer1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

A train of thought that I had earlier this morning is the relationship between shit tests and boundaries. We all know what a standard shit test is, what it consists of, and why she does it. But one thing I recent noticed is very similar to a shit test, but does not fit the exact definition. After reading this post, I realized that what my wife does a lot of the time are not shit tests in the traditional sense of the word, but are more like boundary tests. An example: in my worse days (which are only less than a year ago, actually) my wife would constantly ask me what I was doing on my phone. Literally if I was on the phone for more than a few seconds, she would ask me what I was doing. I eventually got fed up with it, and after I unplugged, I set that as a boundary. I would no longer tell her what I was doing on my phone. (Especially nowadays that the answer is, "reading Chateau Heartiste.") Ever since I set that boundary, it has been a flurry of confrontations about what exactly I am doing on the phone. They all look a lot like shit tests, but they don't fit into exactly the same mold. Agree and Amplify, along with the other techniques seem to work, but the whole thing still does not fit into a standard shit test.

Edit: more thoughts on her deliberate testing of boundaries. As a woman, she craves to submit to a dominant man. When she tests the boundaries, she may be subconsciously seeking an opportunity for you to express your masculine dominance so she can submit to it.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is very insightful. I've been thinking a lot about this too. When you lead, you have to have very strong boundaries, as they give structure to those that follow you. Shit tests might be an evolutionary adaptation for women to understand these boundaries so they trust you to lead. Some are stupid just seeing if they can get to you, some are challenging your needs and terrain more overtly, but either way, they are trying to make sense of your boundaries so they themselves feel structure in their lives.

[–]RBuddDwyer1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The first time she invokes a "boundary test" (to use your motif from the original post) is not really a test, since she is just discovering the newly-established boundary. But after that initial crossing, she will try to test it again. That is when it becomes like a shit test. She could be doing it because she wants to fight for the territoryv back. She could also be doing it because she is mad about the change in the status quo, and is behaving like the bratty teenager she really is. She cold also just be subconsciously seeking a dose of your masculine power. In the end, you handle a "boundary test" the same way you would a regular shit test: agree and amplify, amused mastery, reframe, or give her a controlled dose of pure masculine anger, strength, and power if the situation calls for it. Whatever you do, don't tell her about it or talk to her about it. Just enforce the boundary and put her back in her place.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm thinking a lot about this now, maybe we can have a thread discussing connections between boundary tests and shit tests.

I grew up in a rural area with a lot of stray dogs. They usually worked in packs, and it was clear which one was the alpha dog. The others will follow, but often, some of the secondary more powerful dogs would growl and test the alpha dog. The alpha dog always have to defend the boundary quickly, a quick snarl, but not waste time on the secondary dog, and keep doing what he wanted to do. I understand now that this is the burden of leadership. Following makes people uneasy because it joining a vision. They must constantly test to see two things: if you are strong enough to lead, and if you are focused on your vision. The way to respond is that you must succeed at both always.

Spending too much time showing off you are strong is reactionary and distracts you from your vision. This is what happens when we focus on "winning" fights against our wives. The key is to have enforce boundaries effectively, consistently and efficiently as the means to show you are strong, and never let anyone distract you from your vision. The classic tactics of Shit Tests work because you have such strong boundaries that you can actually have fun while enforcing them. This is a little flair to say "You won't get to me, you won't move me, you won't make me lose vision" in a very efficient way that women understand. It works only if you aren't butt hurt from the boundary test and the shit test.

However, I realize that I (and many others new here) focused too much at the beginning on shit tests without having good boundaries. This always backfires, as without boundaries, the "agree and amplify", "amused mastery" etc comes off snappy and sarcastic, and is reactionary. This always signals to your wife that you aren't strong AND that you lack vision, because you waste energy on her crap.

[–]jamoni22 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy Link

"Following makes people uneasy because it joining a vision. They must constantly test to see two things: if you are strong enough to lead, and if you are focused on your vision. The way to respond is that you must succeed at both always. " HOLY SHIT. You just connected a whole lot of dots for me, brother. This is why engaging her bullshit is a fail, because you are spending so much time and energy on little BS that you are not focusing on the mission. And it's why pure asshole mode fails. I'm spending all the energy on the mission, with no care for my team. Thank you.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. The thing is people do understand when you are mission-focused and they respect you a lot. They feel your drive, and are drawn to it because they want to share in your victory. This is what inspires them to follow, that sense that if they try to block your way, you just leave them behind because it isn't worth it for your mission.

[–]intellectual_zombie1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The assassins kill him for being a fucking idiot and in the chaos take the castle.

I almost spit my breakfast all over my monitor... Thanks for the laugh bro.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Promise me every time your wife tests your boundaries, remember that line, laugh inside, and use that to maintain frame.

[–]intellectual_zombie0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I will. I was just about to post a meaningful reply, which is that this post is super informative and I applaud you for explaining this so thoroughly.

I do have a question: if I were to leave the house because of something she's doing, such as in your example, what do I say when she asks where I'm going, what I'm doing, etc.? Can I just say "I'm taking myself out of this situation?" It occurred to me that leaving the house in certain situations can probably come off as very butthurt, so since I'm doing everything I can to avoid that, I'm interested to know what you think.

Thanks again!

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

what do I say when she asks where I'm going,

You don't have to answer her if you don't want to. You don't have to justify yourself at all. Depending on the level of Dread you want to achieve, you might do more or less information.

What I do is I'm honest but discreet. I just say "I'm going for a walk" and nothing more because I don't know where I'm going or for how long. Othertimes just to signal she won't get to me, I say "Well, I'm going to do ERRAND now", like her stupid shit doesn't affect my plans, I'm productive. Other times I've said "I'm going to leave now as this is unproductive for me.". Sometimes I come home with gifts for myself. If i'm having a good time, i stay longer, I don't need to report to her. But I don't do it to punish her. I do it because it is what i want to be happy.

The key is to not focus on HER, don't say "I leave because you hurt me", but on YOURSELF "i leave because i want to leave". This is much more powerful.

can probably come off as very butthurt

Why do you care what she thinks? You don't need her approval, like the king doesn't need the approval of the assassins. Staying because you worry what she thinks is like the beta king trying to convince the assassins he isn't a faggot. Showing you do what is best for you without caring of her judgement is Frame. Maintain frame.

It is always better to leave when wife wants to fight than to engage her. Don't fight the hamster, let the hamster run on its own. Remember, when she engages you in the fight she WANTS your attention. Deny her that and do something good for yourself.

Come home happy, like you had a good time. The first few times it is very weird, but you will train yourself to like it, and not worry. When you come home really happy from the time you spent, she will internalize you are not butt hurt, you are just strong and don't have time for stupid shit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You don't have to justify yourself at all.

Key point here.

You ain't no one's bitch.

You want to choose when you justify yourself.

Failing to justify yourself may have consequences, but you're already free to choose whether or not you can accept those.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want to add that if you struggle with this point, I recommend you read WISNIG. It really helped me overcome this.

[–]RBuddDwyer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Setting boundaries happens because you allow yourself to set them. You have to truly believe that you have the right to set those boundaries. You have to set them because you want to set them. Set those boundaries because you have earned it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

High value men know what they expect out of life. Low value men don't.

[–]BourneRedPill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

fantastic post!!!

One of my biggest obstacles is this and I haven't been able to find any reading about in the sub. Even in the NMMNG as you mention, it doesn't go about re-establishing your boundaries.

Please cross-post this in the main Red Pill sub, more people should read this and contribute to the discussion

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I might clean it up then. Boundaries are so basic that I often think most people will think it is obvious or too basic. Yet those of us that were very beta blue and transition in the relationship often do it because of lack of boundaries.

[–]jcrpta0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fantastic advice.

But one question: My wife has developed an extremely effective way to fuck with my ability to enforce any sort of boundary.

How?

Simple.

Everything I have tried has worked just once. After that, she'll reframe it in a way to make me (at least in her mind) the pathetic beta.

Leave the room? I'm "flouncing off".

Silence? Did that this week; her boredom threshold is sufficiently high as to be able to cope quite happily. I kept it up for three days and achieved damn all.

Lose my temper? Works a treat, but it's hardly "keeping frame", is it? Not to mention it's exhausting to have to lose my temper just to see my wife show her good side.

About the thing left I can think of is cut off her Internet. (Which won't be terribly effective as she has a pretty good 3G data plan that includes tethering).

Obviously I could go completely nuclear (as in: fit a lock on the bedroom door and force her into the spare room) but I want to reserve that for when I make an ultimatum.

I am really short of ideas that don't involve going completely nuclear, and any suggestions would be gratefully received!

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why do you care what she thinks? She reframes it, don't give in to her frame. Maintain frame.

She sounds like the assassins taunting the king. Stay strong with your boundaries and don't be the beta king!

I am really short of ideas that don't involve going completely nuclear, and any suggestions would be gratefully received!

Have you read NMMNG? Losing your temper often comes off like a victim puke, and it hurts you long term. Have you read WISNIFG? It is the manual for how to handle these things and not give in to her frame.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit... do you have nothing going for you?

Lets reframe that, where are you adding value to your wife's life? From what I see, you're not actually adding value anywhere so why should she give a shit?

[–]Redneck0010 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Great post! And very timely.

I have an issue I could use some counsel:

My wife and I go to dinner at a local restaurant on Friday nights. My wife works in the fundraising business, and there's an older guy, ~70, (let's call him Ray) that likes to come up and hug and kiss my wife. I'm uncomfortable with this.

A few weeks ago, Ray came up and did his usual. Since I've been reading TRP, I figured this was an excellent time to set boundaries. I told Ray (with a smile, to try to keep it light and to maintain frame) that he needs to stop touching my woman. Ray gave me a dirty look, but stopped. Then walked off.

Later that evening, I was coming back from the bathroom and Ray was setting at a table of another young couple. I gave Ray the bro nod. Ray leaned in and said, "You need to keep up with your wife." I laughed and walked off, because I'm not going to argue with an old man. So obviously drawing boundaries with Ray chapped his hide.

But I had planned ahead my defenses, and decided I must carry them out regardless.

Its Friday night, and I suspect Ray may be there and test boundaries again. My plan, if he does, is to pull him aside (so as not make a scene) and say:

"Ray, apparently I was not clear last time, so that's my fault. I accept responsibility for that. I want to make sure you understand that my family is off limits to your hands."

Any thoughts or ideas on how best to handle the old bastard?

[–]RBuddDwyer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I told Ray (with a smile, to try to keep it light and to maintain frame) that he needs to stop touching my woman.

That sounds like Mate Guarding to me. The guy is 70, do you think he'll really do something with your wife? If she doesn't like it, let her handle it herself or ask you for help.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much. The OP of this comment chain seems like he has issues with jealousy. The reality is that this is not OP's problem. This is the wife's problem. And OP's problem is the wife's lack of initiative.

I'd imagine the wife is saying he's a creepy to spare OP's feeling, but is in reality flattered. Why else would she continue putting up with it?

It's like chicks saying "I don't have sex on the first date." Talk is cheap.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

"Ray, apparently I was not clear last time, so that's my fault. I accept responsibility for that. I want to make sure you understand that my family is off limits to your hands."

You already communicated the boundary. Talking again won't work. He knows the boundary, so if he tries to kiss her, it is because he wants to see if you act or not, to see if you respect it or not. You must act.

How does your wife feel about the old man and what you told him? Depending on this, I can think of several possibilities that include her or not.

[–]Redneck001-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

She considers him a creepy old man. And we didn't discuss what happened, other than her saying "he's a creepy old man." But he's a donor and she's in the fundraising business. My wife doesn't know about his later comment.

Great point! I have established the boundary, and he obviously took exception to it. So telling him again is pointless. I'm just not sure how to enforce this on a 70 year old man.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If she is creeped out, then she can help you with this. This is called "unifying boundaries". You together have a common boundary, so you collaborate. For example, you sit in a booth, and she is farther from him. When he comes, she gives a half smile and a lame wave, and clings to you instead of rising to the kiss. If he comes close, you stand up, shake his hand firmly, and gently use your body to block your wife, look him in the eye, and release the handshake as you say bye to him.

If he still wants to reach, your wife can say hi but squirm into you more, and you can use your hand on his shoulder to stop him gently, and tell him again "Good seeing you Ray".

If you are half blocking her with your body and he still reaches, all you have to do is block more and again, grab him on the shoulder candidly but firmly, repeat your previous warning with as few words as possible (less is better) and start to walk him to his table. You are younger, he will be intimidated if you do this all from frame. Think of yourself as a strong male nurse handling a decrepit old man that misbehaves.

All these things (your body language, hers, you words, her, your eye contact, her lack off, your firm tone, etc) together give a very powerful and coherent message.

[–]Redneck001-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This, I like!

Thanks, bro, I'm ready for the Rayster tonight if he tries to test. Its good to have a plan.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Good luck. And if you get your wife along this, it can be a fun little "together" adrenaline rush that can get her excited.

When my wife doesn't want to deal with someone, i tell her the plan. I stay cool and carry through, and she always is happier for it, and very grateful. I think this is a great area to show leadership, make her feel safe, and be a man. Also, there is something about shared secret plans well-executed that brings you closer and is a big turn on.

[–]Redneck0010 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Its Friday, and we'll be going to dinner tonight. Thanks for the advice. Just to update you:

Last Friday, I talked to my wife about "Ray", and how he and I may have unfinished business. That her interactions with men are her business, but that "Ray" set off my sixth sense. My wife always reminds me that my daughter and I have a sixth sense, where if something's not right about somebody, we pick up on it right away. Not with a lot of folks we meet, just a few select ones. There's likely some evolution stuff there, but I ain't Darwin, so whatever. She also said that Ray has groped her before and she was uncomfortable with the guy. I said again that her and Ray's issues were hers to address, but Ray and I likely have some unfinished business. She said, "Man stuff, huh? Do what you gotta do."

We go to dinner and I look around the restaurant. No Ray, but then again I'm terrible with remembering faces (names I can remember, faces not so much). We have dinner with some friends, have a good time. I still don't see Ray.

As we get ready to leave, my wife is looking at me. I wink. She says "good job." I'm confused. "What?" She says, "your friend has been sitting 10 feet from you all night, and made no eye contact or approach toward our table." So Ray respected the boundary, and my clueless ass didn't even know it.

I likely didn't handle this the right way initially, but once I drew a line with Ray, I had to see it through. Its been a learning experience and I appreciate your advice with it. Thanks, bro.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whatever you did it worked.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post.

Acting to defend the boundary with behaviors (not words) is the way to communicate the boundary in a way she understands it.

Communicating only with words is the least effective way of getting the message across. 70% of communication is non-verbal.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

70% of communication is non-verbal.

Yeah. I started to study bouncers because they are the ultimate boundary defenses. They have to protect everyone in the establishment and ensure they have a good time, and defuse anything that threatens that. They deal with crazy drunk people all the time.

A good bouncer can't just go beating up everyone, it is bad for business, but they need to be very good communications. They don't really argue or explain, they talk very little, but they talk with their bodies, tone, everything. What they say is short, concrete, and clear. If people argue, they just repeat it and escalate the message in other ways. Even if the music is too loud, it doesn't matter, somehow the message of the bouncer still comes through. Most drunks just leave because of this strong coherent message. Even if the bouncer ends up pushing or throwing out the drunk, it is part of the same coherent persistent message, a natural extension of escalating the defenses, and never out of anger.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is a great post, and one I definitely needed to read. I will admit (after having read this) that I'm not very good at enforcing my boundaries, for the reasons you mention - I too often try to use words instead of actions to enforce my boundaries.

However, there is one place in our relationship where lately I've been very good (and consistent) about enforcing my boundaries, but I have a question about the result. Specifically, my wife has this nasty habit of rejecting sex in a very bitchy way, and then justifying that bitchiness by trying to shame me for wanting sex. Lately (for the past few months), when she does it, I've been telling her that her behavior is toxic to the relationship and then leaving the house. To be clear, if she's nice when she rejects (or at least not bitchy), I have no issue and there are no consequences for her.

Well, the problem is that she refuses to believe that I am leaving the house for any reason other than because she rejected me for sex. So, not only is she refusing to draw the connection between the consequences and her bitchy behavior, but she's also viewing my behavior as a lack of OI on my part - she sees my leaving the house as punishment for her rejection (rather than the bitchy behavior).

Consequently, I've seen a noticeable hit in her attraction to me (as evidenced by more rejections, less initiation on her part, etc.).

Thoughts?

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

when she does it, I've been telling her that her behavior is toxic to the relationship

This is the problem. She is bitchy because it gets you to lose frame.

When she rejects you, act like you don't care. Don't talk, don't explain what it means. Go out, do dread, improve SMV, go to the gym, have a beer and flirt a bit, have fun at it. Have so much fun that you start to convince yourself you don't need sex from her. Until you believe this in your core, she will keep behaving that bitchy way because it gets you to lose frame and acting butthurt, and she knows it, so she is less attracted to you because she has that power over you.

Well, the problem is that she refuses to believe that I am leaving the house for any reason other than because she rejected me for sex.

How do you know this. Do you read her mind? Why do you care what her hamster hamsters? What does it matter? Do you argue with her about the meaning of you leaving? That is hamster-hamster communication, it only breeds more hamsters. Her words or thoughts don't matter, only her actions.

While you worry about this, indeed, you are not Outcome Independent. Women smell that far away. Once you believe it yourself, you won't care what she might think, and only then, she will internalize it. I wrote a whole post about how to get into this mindset. See here to read the Stoic trick.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is the problem. She is bitchy because it gets you to lose frame. When she rejects you, act like you don't care.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I understand you on this. Can you expand. In your OP, you mentioned:

My wife used to make a false accusation that used to really get to me. I wanted her to stop it.

So how is my situation (my wife's bitchy during a rejection, I tell her she's crossed a boundary and walk away), different from your situation (your wife makes a false accusation, you tell her you won't tolerate it and walk away).

Honestly, I'm pretty OI to the rejection. It's the bitchiness I can't stand. She does it with more than just rejections of sexual initiations, but it's the rejection of sex where the actions become problematic for the reasons I mentioned previously....

How do you know this. Do you read her mind? Why do you care what her hamster hamsters? What does it matter? Do you argue with her about the meaning of you leaving?

I know this because that's what she tells me. I come home and she starts railing into me for 'ignoring her just because she rejected me for sex'. I don't argue with her. My response is usually something like, "You will believe what you want to believe."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know this because that's what she tells me. I come home and she starts railing into me for 'ignoring her just because she rejected me for sex'. I don't argue with her. My response is usually something like, "You will believe what you want to believe."

  1. Just because she hamsters really hard doesn't mean it's happening. She probably tells you all sorts of crap that she THINKS she believes.

  2. Your response is the response of a guy who's been defeated. The classic TV dad/yes ma'am hybrid. You send the message that you don't disagree with your wife -- hence your wife is right. Get confrontational. Show her that you have balls.

"You're goddamn right. The rejection of sex and your shitty attitude."

"This is absurd. I'm not going to have this bullshit conversation. It's just a continuation of your shitty attitude."

"Your shitty attitude is unattractive."

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

my wife's bitchy during a rejection, I tell her she's crossed a boundary and walk away

What do you mean by "bitchy"? Can you be more concrete? If you want to correct behavior on her, that is one thing, if you want to defend a boundary, that is different. They can be used together, but I mixing them up back fires. Mixing up can be identified by frustrating that you enforce your boundary yet she doesn't change her behavior. Well, you don't control her behavior, so that isn't a boundary. What matters for boundaries is you do what is good for you, and that is a victory.

You are focusing on her not understanding what you want to change in her, which means, this is not a boundary, it is behavioral change. It is different.

So how is my situation (my wife's bitchy during a rejection, I tell her she's crossed a boundary and walk away), different from your situation (your wife makes a false accusation, you tell her you won't tolerate it and walk away)

That when I do it, wife still said as well that I left for the wrong reasons, yet I don't care. That is hamster. What matters to me isn't that she connects the dots and changes her behavior, but that I enforce things such that her bad behavior doesn't affect me. Because her goal is to affect me, she learns that it doesn't work. It doesn't matter to me at all what reason she hamsters, what matters is to do it consistently so she learn bad behavior won't work on getting at me.

It is the same as training a dog. A dog might not understand your reasons, but what matters is that the dog pairs behaviors.

[–]wendy-fly0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was wonderful and useful in many areas of life. Thank you for taking the time to write it all out.

Boundaries make me feel safe in myself. I know he won't tolerate something so I am held to that higher standard. Being a crazy woman doesn't feel good even to the woman, boundaries help us stay calm because we know we can't go there so we just don't.

[–]AnalLeak0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Awesome post man it totally explains why there is so much backlash when manning up and reclaiming yur nuts

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Remember, they didn't take away our nuts, WE GAVE THEM AWAY. It is our own fault, and now we must pay a high price for reclaiming them. It is hard for you and for her, so be patient.

[–]BluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Everybody should read Tzun Tzu, the Art of War to understand this awesome analogy even better. There is an entire chapter on the types of ground. He identifies fighting ground and death ground. You don't fight on death ground but only where it is to your advantage to fight.

The Crimean example is a good one but one could argue that was Russian territory from the beginning. This is why Ukraine did not fight over it and why they are willing to fight over the Russian areas of Western Ukraine because they are more mixed ethnicity.

So the lesson is don't set your boundaries over areas where it is difficult or even impossible to defend- but once you do set your boundaries, you are throwing down the gauntlet and announcing that you are willing to fight to the death to defend them.

Set reasonable and very clear boundaries and defend them at all costs.

TLDR: High Fences make good neighbors Wives.

[–]strategos_autokrator[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

one could argue that was Russian territory from the beginning.

I agree with you. Ukraine claimed it was their boundary, but it wasn't because they had no power over it. This includes local support and military might, all of that. It is why I chose the example, as it is the same when we set up wrong boundaries we don't control.

A wrong boundary is: "My wife must stop yelling" because we have way to control her. A good boundary is "When wife yells, I'll leave and go to the bar" because we have control over things.

Another pair: Wrong: "Wife must have sex with me" Good: "I'm going to satisfy my sexual needs because it is important for me. If wife doesn't want to be part of that, she misses out on me."

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2021. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter