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Owning Your Desires Without Negotiating Hers

November 25, 2017
96 upvotes

Sexual needs are healthy, normal and valid. Don't let anyone (especially your wife) try to convince you otherwise or invalidate those needs. She may say things like; “Again? What’s wrong with you?”, or "I just have a low libido," or "no married people have sex that much." My wife has a good friend who is basically sexually retired at 38 years old. A few times in the past, my wife has made comparisons to this couple and how often they do (or don’t) have sex. I sarcastically just say, "and he seems like a happily married guy." (This guy has made several comments in my presence that him and his wife are not on good terms). She'll still dismiss this but deep down she realizes the subcommunication from me which says, "That might be ok for them... Not for me. You can do what you want but MY wife/girlfriend won't be like that."

You need to own and be unapologetic for your desires as a man. NEVER hide them, make light of them or act like you were "just joking," in the face of a rejection. /u/GargantuaBlarg29 has a good post on this. This is why weak and indirect initiations don't work. If rejected, and you will be sometimes , don't dwell on it in her presence. Quickly move on to something else you'd rather be doing. I've gotten to the point where I also usually withdraw from unenthusiastic sex from the wife. She gets a few points for at least acknowledging this is a need for me and trying but I just don't do duty sex, conciliatory BJs or any of that garbage anymore. My time is better spent on something else. You have to make that call yourself though. If you just discovered this magical fucking place and are basically her man-servant, for the love of God don’t walk away from starfish. I digress.

If after you've put in the work and become a man worthy of female desire, and optimized your sexual strategy to suit you (for once in your life), you should have no apprehension about making it clear that a healthy sex life is going to be a part of your relationship with some woman. It is better to communicate this through actions but some women won't get it through their female entitled heads this way or may just be "checked out” and you may have to be more direct about it.

Back to the core concepts:

Don't Try to Negotiate Desire

This is a foundational concept of Red Pill and was really hammered out by Rollo Tomassi. You see it manifested in advice here all the time. Now, for a new man here, I can see how sometimes advice given out can seem to be incongruent. For example, take these common responses/advice given on this sub regarding negotiating desire, all have a common theme of STFU and action over words:

Advice Type 1;

"That's a covert contract - you shouldn’t be doing any of this for sex...”

“No chore play”

"STFU about your feelings or talking about what you want or think you deserve - she doesn't care."

"Acta Non Verba" (don't talk to/at her about what you expect/deserve/require in your marriage). Sort of goes with STFU, doesn’t it.

Advice Type 2 comes in the form of being congruent and avoiding the covert contract;

"Stop expecting her to just know what you want."

"Be congruent with your actions, words and frame."

"Lead her" - In everyday interaction (respect, general behavior, being fun)... With what you expect from a good FO (good roommate stuff)... and in the bedroom.

List one should be your Default operating strategy. However, if she shuts you down for the third time in a row, there's nothing wrong with being direct and clear (in actions and sometimes words) about your desires as a man. This effectively kills the covert contracts cold. That's when advice to lead her out of “the maze” (source: Jack10) and owning your desires comes into play. This advice is usually handed out like this and has the common theme of being direct, leading and owning your masculinity. Another disclaimer for new men here; as BPP suggests , you have to work up to this level of owning your wants overtly. If you haven't passed Dread Level 0 (stop being a pussy), then don't delve into this yet.

Know what you value and know how to act congruently with that while simultaneously not expecting anything from your wife. She technically doesn’t owe you anything, nor do you owe her anything (this is true OI).

Whether you’re getting consistent pussy or not isn’t the issue or focus of this post. Remember that MRP saves the man and empowers him, but makes no promises about the woman following or the marriage thriving. Being open about your desires (with the wife and yourself) is the only way to own your desire without covert contracts. I remember one time about a year ago, I made it clear with my hands, eyes and proximity that I wanted to fuck. She said, “jeez, again? You’re horny all the time.” I said, “lucky you... you’ve got yourself a real man with a real sex drive.” Just be honest about it.

Here’s the key to this concept: You don’t actually have to be getting consistent sex to successfully pull this off. Read that sentence a few times. It doesn’t matter if your sexual advances are being rejected (to a point), it matters that you aren’t negotiating, pleading, bribing or “trading” to get her desire. Is she still not consistently putting out (i.e. less “yes” and more “not tonight”)? Well, then have a plan for that, one that fits into your larger sexual strategy. Have a plan, phased if you must, but have a plan to get your desire, that you’ve owned, fulfilled one way or another. But in the meantime, whatever you do, don’t negotiate it.

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Post Information
Title Owning Your Desires Without Negotiating Hers
Author JDRoedell
Upvotes 96
Comments 23
Date November 25, 2017 7:06 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/owning-your-desires-without-negotiating-hers.198307
https://theredarchive.com/post/198307
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/7fh7rv/owning_your_desires_without_negotiating_hers/
Comments

[–]matrixtospartanatLVMRP APPROVED19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This should be mandatory reading for every noob motherfucker that comes here whining about sex.

Great fucking post.

[–]10001000010 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There has been a noticeable upswing of quality posts recently. This is another good one.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Man. A lot of posts and ideas coming to a head again.

Premises:

1) This post, do not negotiate desire.

2) A recent TRP post summed up: It's either Hell Yes, or no (caveat the comments...waiting for hell yes rejects a lot of maybes turning into yes).

3) Some guy boulder acne tile setter's thoughts on who is training who?

Subject: A woman who has responded and shown the potential for most acts of a sexual enthusiastic woman but never all at once, never without reservation, and never without provocation.

Scenario: I tell her I want a BJ, with her topless. Get some gripe about it: "Ugh I don't feel like that." And shortly after "Well it's not happening topless." It did anyway. Push through that LMR. But I still felt kind of unsatisfied. Mostly because of premise 2...it wasn't a hell yes. Which leads to premise 3, is my acceptance of a BJ after a non-hell yes training her to know that behavior is okay...and training me to either accept a non-hell yes? If I accept a non-hell yes is that premise 1, negotiation of a BJ? In other words I'll accept one as long as I let her bitch about it?

[–]SgtSilverBack3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

In your scenario I believe it is a bit of HER scenario 1. She is used to beta you and she hasn't learned to be an Alpha's chick. There are women that don't default to pornstar and need to learn/ be led to that.

Most scenario 2 situations wouldn't get a BJ anyway and def not after stating NO. They would increase resistance and shame harder.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Need to learn / be lead to that.

True. She's a stubborn learner.

Related story: I had my dog in classes recently where the trainer said "he knows that he's doing wrong, don't settle and allow it or reinforce it, but correct it." Almost like my dog was testing me to see what it could train me to get away with. Of course if I simply get angry with it, it'll comply out of fear and not out of want.

[–]SgtSilverBack4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My point being women have a beta version as well, we're society has trained them how to act. They think it's appropriate. You could do everything right and she is beta-ing harder thinking it's what she should do. Yes, leadership is the answer. Theory of it may improve which tools you use.

Much like men that beta harder thinking it's the right thing to do. Women do as well and it leads them to fighting being a proper fuck toy. This is what confused me most about all the harpy women. Regardless of attraction, and speaking purely from a manipulative standpoint, if they fucked a man correctly, he would happily be a work slave to give her what she wants.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True this. Mrs. Monkee had an epiphany several years ago. She decided that trading blow jobs for chores is much less effective than becoming a blow job queen and using them to train the husband.

Sadly, I was too beta to take advantage of the situation. Fuck (former) me.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You point out an important dynamic. I would still say that you can and should push through LMR without negotiating her desire, or as you say “training her to think it’s ok with you to have to wade through that LMR”... to a point. The acceptable level of LMR and the level of things the man is doing to get past it will depend on that man and that woman. This idea could probably be a post all on its own.

Sometime I’m up for a challenge and if it’s sort of playful, then there’s nothing wrong with a little LMR. If she’s genuinely annoyed or really obviously not DTF (with legit reasons or not), then that’s where I personally draw the line and will probably go something else.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe a combination of the two then.

She grunts at the suggestion

"Cmon baby you know that's not attractive." (In an AM way, not a butthurt way). Then bring her close and continue escalation.

[–]BobbyPeruMRP Approved5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Now this is a man who has read the sidebar.

Great post.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Owning your desire is healthy and alpha. When I first started out in the manosphere I did a lot of pick up. I read all the material, did daygame, nightgame, online dating and I treated it almost like a full time job. I learned very early on that you need to own your sexuality and act like a fucking man. Women can smell weakness, they can also smell desire. If you feel like a hungry wolf then you act like that and own it. Say dirty shit then tell her it is her fault, or just initiate when you are feeling it and act out your thoughts.

As for the guys who are still getting rejected, there is two possibilities. A) there is something off about you, meaning you are lacking in appearance, vision or attitude. B) it is something wrong with her. Maybe she has her own mental issues, maybe she can’t see the new you because the old you is stuck in her head, maybe you are not as compatible as you thought you would be when you first got with her. If it is B) then you need to have a very hard think about your situation. You may not wish to burn down your marriage for whatever reason, but if you are not getting at home, you should get it elsewhere.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good summary of the key points here. You bring up another important thing that I neglected.... There are two possible reasons you are getting more “no’s” than “hell yes’s.” The A and B. You first become a man who owns his desires, appearance and mission. If after that she still doesn’t follow or become the woman you know you’re worthy of, well then you have some decisions to make. Is it because of “B?” Thats when you decide what your threshold for getting what you want is. Those decisions are outside the scope of my post but important to understand.

[–]TA_AR 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Wish this worked for a wife that is dealing with supressed childhood sexual trauma. I'm hoping it will get back to what it was like before the panic attacks and flashbacks started.

I'm always walking a fine line of getting my needs met and causing her a lot of discomfort.

What really pisses me off though is that she equates masterbation with cheating.

My life really sucks right now to be honest. I love her but resentment is getting hard to contain

[–]snatch_haggisCaptain Awesome's Understudy3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

supressed childhood sexual trauma

There are psych docs who want to dig at all those scars and scrape 'em loose til they bleed, but there are also lots of others who will say to leave it alone and let it heal.

I had a fucked up childhood. My wife had a fucked up childhood. Hell, nearly everybody I know had a fucked up childhood. And I'm talking pretty horrific shit, in several cases.

Eventually you gotta decide whether you're gonna let the past own you, or if you're gonna own it, and move on.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not to belittle the effects of legit childhood sexual trauma, because the fallout is real and bad, but this;

What really pisses me off though is that she equates masterbation with cheating.

... tells me that her expectation of your relationship dynamics is way out of whack. She may have her own issues but she doesn’t seem to respect your needs. Just as you said, “the fine line of getting your needs met,” is where the issue lies.

I’m no expert but her issues sound like they require professional help. And you should lead her to seek that.

[–]redsprinklersystem1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not to deny her trauma (that shit must be a real mindfuck) but how come you say "get back to what it was like before the panic attacks and flashbacks started".

Was she being a good slut just to lock you down (and now has a good excuse to deny you) or did something else trigger her to bring this up?

 

EDIT: Oh and the masturbation = cheating thing is totally fucked. If she doesn't want to drain your balls and presumably doesn't want another woman to do it, then what the fuck does she expect?

[–]TA_AR 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Sex was good before the panic / anxiety / flashbacks started.

[–]redsprinklersystem0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but I'm curious what the trigger was that changed things. Did something happen to bring them on, or was she just burying that shit when she felt the desire/need to fuck you good?

[–]epistemic_humility0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Great post. Dealing with this now. Main plate gone LTR has stopped with the daily putting out and I'm having to initiate more and deal with angry rejections. Conversations where she only ever sees her side and expects me to hone my sexual appitite or something. When I tell her that I've got needs and such to break the covert contract she gets mad or sad and guilts or tantrums and walks away.. Fucking stupid. Like I'm in trouble or something for wanting sex.

Also she has endometriosis, not 100% how often it's causing pain or she just uses it as a thing but sometimes it's a reason for rejections.

How can I reset this? Do I need to pull back harshly or keep initiating and just work on shunting off rejection better? Improving many other aspects of life to instill some dread too.

What even is a healthy sex life? I'm trying to get at it at least once a day. Is that libido odd because she makes it seem like I'm an objectifying sex fiend at times.

Note I don't take the rejections well at this point. It's become a bit of problem. But I'm trying to just phase from rejection into something new without dwelling too hard in the moment. Meditation is helping.

[–]JDRoedellMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Conversations where she only ever sees her side and expects me to hone my sexual appitite or something.

This is her trying to tell you how she thinks you should feel and act. Just AM this.

When I tell her that I've got needs and such to break the covert contract she gets mad or sad and guilts or tantrums and walks away..

This is where you have to internalize that her feelings are her problems, not yours. She gets angry because your a healthy man who wants to fuck? Tough shit. Do you get mad at her for getting a little moody that time of the month? I hope not. When you are owning your desire you need to say it in the same tone that you would if you said, “man, am I hungry.” Just matter of fact, not butthurt but also without a hint of apologetic undertone.

How can I reset this? Do I need to pull back harshly or keep initiating and just work on shunting off rejection better?

This is different for every man and relationship. Personally, if I was getting it anywhere near once a day, I’d be a kept man. It sounds like you’re just starting an LTR so it’s different for than many of the guys here who have been married for years. By even committing to an LTR you’ve immediately taken away some of her desire to give up the frequent pussy. It’s almost inevitable, but it is manageable. That’s one of the reasons many guys here (who unplugged while married) would not recommend getting married. You have to make that call for yourself though.

If you haven’t read the sidebar, you need to. I’m sensing maybe you haven’t read it all.

[–]epistemic_humility1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the insight man! Good point on stating the desire firmly and on ignoring her emotions at least the trivial explosive ones.

I've been on trp for a few years, just dipping into trp hardmode with an Ltr. So far it's had rough spots but I'm learning a ton. I'll hit up this subs specific sidebar as well.

Starting to regularly lift again to up some dread and stay in the game in cas I have to bounce out of this. Not trying to have an ltr fail while I'm out of shape haha.

Seriously though, thanks for reading my words. Trp is a lonely game, it's rare to compare notes.

[–]snatch_haggisCaptain Awesome's Understudy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also she has endometriosis, not 100% how often it's causing pain or she just uses it as a thing but sometimes it's a reason for rejections.

My wife has endo, and there's some pain, sure, but it's tied to cycle and it shouldn't be a reason more than a few days a month. If the pain is all the time, it needs checked out by a decent OB.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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