Weak Frame Is My Biggest Problem

January 11, 2016
36 upvotes

TLDR: I have implemented various components of the red pill praxeology throughout my 25+ year LTR/marriage; but in a highly incongruent and non-oak manner that has proved unfulfilling. Ultimately, went betmax to the point of considering chemical self-castration before discovering the red pill. Now on a purposeful journey; destination wifes' ultimate role in it unknown.

 

Facts and bona fide

I and wife (both 47) have been married for 22 years after 2 years cohabitation and 2 years LTR in college. We are both engineers and well employed. We have two children ages 13 and 16. I am Caucasian. She is north Asian, and immigrated to USA in middle school. My wife’s parents and sister have lived with us for the last 15 years. I discovered the red pill on 9/14/15; and immediately started choking the thing down. I have read NMMNG, WISNIFG, MMSLF (twice), MAP, TRM (twice + outlined), Models, and all other “TRP 101” sidebar excluding books listed in “TRP Sidebar”. I have also read top the 100+ post on MRP, AskMRP, and TRP (>50 top). I have lifted on/off my entire life; but not heavy until swallowing pill (….I know….ignorant).

 

Post Purpose

I have many questions; which I will mostly address in future post. The purposes of this post are to:

• Introduce myself and situation to provide context for further inquiry. I have fully accepted that my marriage problems are of my own making, that a woman takes the shape of her vessel; and that I have been a drunk (actually high) captain for >15 years. This is a wall of text; but I hope not a victim puke. Feel free to flog if too much puke is visible.

• While neither my wife nor I are snowflakes; the overall expression of our current marital relationship is unusual when compared to the 100s of post I have read. While all of the red pill praxeology is applicable; I would like your input on my situation and my MAP.

  • My 20+ year marriage demonstrates how to fuckup a lot of red pill concepts; and the consequences of negotiating a lot of sex with little organic desire. Don’t do it this way…..

 

Me Before Marriage

From the age of 15 to 23 I had sex with seventeen different women and dated anther dozen-plus, practicing a combination of serial monogamy and plate spinning. Women were HB6-8 with the occasional HB8+ (sorry but no HB9/10 using this honest scale http://www.realmendrinkwhiskey.com/how-to-rate-girls/). My “cold calling”/bar game was atrocious as I am naturally introverted (strongly INTJ on Myers-Brigg type indicator); but my inside classroom/hobbies/circle friends game was solid. In these first 8 years, I never had fewer than three plates spinning and outside of backwoods man trips never went more than 1-3 days between getting fucked/sucked. In terms of the LTRs excluding my wife, in ¾ cases I was the dumpee / not the dumper. In red pill hindsight, the being dumped LTRs were all due to a combination of oneitis/nice guy smothering behavior on my part combined with hypergamy on their part. The lone one I had to put down was just bat shit crazy (stripper…..). Sounds ridiculous in hindsight, but I had a strange combination of actual abundance and serial oneitis. My last LTR; my wife….I can honestly say I approached in a very red pill fashion. I was not aware of my own internal change at the time; but at that point in my life, I had finally just come to conclude “fuck these bitches, I am going to do my thing, and if they want to come along for the ride so be it”. I was in excellent shape, had very interesting jobs, lots of cool hobbies, and was extremely driven to rise from very humble beginning. I rode a motorcycle and had a “rebel/bad boy” reputation.

 

With Wife – Part 1

Ms. Persaeus and I met in a college TA (teaching assistant) session. Skipping the porno description, within a month of meeting I was into the best she had ever given (nothing off the table). Shortly thereafter I found out she had a LTR of six years with a pre-med student that originated in high school (guess I was Chad in hindsight…..and not the first time this had happened to me). She dumped him within two months of hooking up with me and had zero remorse (AWALT).

The relationship was openly open-ended on my end only for the first year. She maintained I was N=2, and I have never heard anything that cast doubt on this assertion although (maybe double….who knows or cares at this point). She professed her love first; and I was very much dominate in the relationship. I was very confident in picking her as wife material with zero red flags other than our meeting which I rationalized up to her boyfriend being both lame and a jerk (classic nice guy in hindsight). Solid family and background with very little drama. A major factor in picking her was that I found (still do) her to be the most emotionally stable, rational, and independent woman I had ever met. Not saying she was some snow flake; but everything is on a scale and she is on the non-needy end of it.

Upon graduation, we found jobs in the same large company and moved in together in a pretty rural area. As I mentioned above, in college our sex life was HOT…HOT….HOT. After moving in together, anal was suddenly off the table (“hurts too much”). We married two years later (1993) and the honeymoon was the last blowjob I would see for another 15 years. Aside from a smaller menu, our sex life was frequent but not particularly memorable (I don’t remember it being an issue). I would say it was on a very slow decline reflecting my alpha decline until we started trying to conceive at which time there was significant two year jump (97’-99’) in frequency/intensity. I was doing some things right and lot of things wrong. I was killing the career. I still had many interesting/manly hobbies away from my wife; and I would say my frame was in my head and not hers. I was sort of (not) passing shit test; but unfortunately relying almost entirely on nuclear weapons and was unaware of/not passing comfort test. Arguments typically went through an exhaustive DEER process with me ultimately nuking the whole thing from orbit. I also physically let myself go in this period, gained 20 lbs fat and stopped exercising/lifting aside from a life-long dedication to long-distance hiking. She on the other hand looked as good the day I impregnated her as when we met.

I learned in 1998 that she was spending a lot of time with a co-worker and rumors of a relationship got back to me. For the first time, I went straight to an intermittent diary she had kept. In this diary she clearly laid out my emotional inadequacies and how her co-worker met these needs. She described how he gave her the TinglesTM. She also went on and on how this was all wrong, and she needed to switch jobs so as to not be around co-worker. There was never any admission of a physical relationship. This emotional affair lasted 2+ years during which I was closely following her activities in the last 6 months. I never found evidence of a physical affair. During this six months I put my balls and frame squarely in her hands in a bid to win her back. Through some combination of this and getting her pregnant the affair came to an end. Before you ask; for my own sanity I now assume she fucked him, and yes I am covertly submitting paternity test on both kids (both look like mine for what that’s worth). However IMO, she was there for the taking but the co-worker (20 years older) was just too much of a bitch (and married) to pounce. Up until four months ago, she was not aware I knew about this emotional affair. I have forgiven her largely because of AWALT and I completely brought it on myself. However, I have not been able to forget it and it has played havoc with my frame.

 

With Wife – Part 2

Our first child was born in 2000. In 1999 and 2000, my job required travel ~26 weeks each year. Due to some combination of being a drunk captain and resentment over the affair, I was often gone hunting/fishing or otherwise non-attentive father for first several years. This “abandonment” has been a fixation of hers ever since. I had also retaken up a serious marijuana smoking habit in 1998 that I had laid to rest 10 years earlier. This habit never interfered with work; but was serious. Typically getting high 3-5 nights a week M-F and all weekend long. Wife and family are extremely naive in this regard and I am highly functional with a mild buzz; and have never known about my drug use.

Wife’s parents moved in year-2001 primarily so she could return to work; and we could avoid having our children raised by strangers. Her younger sister moved in a year later after washing out hard from a LTR+startup business. The in-law package was also sold to me based on the premise of being able to continue with my hobbies. Of course, per Bilfrault’s Law this was rapidly forgotten and I was constantly accused of being a poor father for exercising the agreement.

Our second child was born in 2003. We also moved into very large-new house constructed for the now seven of us to live in. From 2001 on; I was steadily deleting my old life, becoming a more involved father, and moving into my wife’s frame. By end-2004, sex was down 2-4 times a month with most of that occurring during ovulation week in spite of the fact that my initiation never dropped to less than >10 times per week (giving up is not my thing). My OI sucked with lots of whining, pleading, and occasional yelling. I did often withdraw both emotionally and physically in response to the hard no. In 2005, I started keeping detailed records on her cycle, our sex life (initiation, yes, no, quality), and the amount of time the wife and I each spent with the kids. Lo and behold; I was 2:1 on her taking care of kids by this point. We argued at least monthly about the lack of sex with her reason always ending up as some variant of me being a poor father; and her being stressed/tired out over the combination of work+kids. I just continued my slide into overweight drunken captain relinquishing more and more control outside of the kids; which I continue to this day to own.

 

With Wife – Part 3

In the summer of 2008 the blowjob suddenly reappeared and sexual activity started to slowly pickup to around 3 per week by summer 2009. With my detailed records and red pill hindsight, the reason is clear. By this time, she was such a bitch that I started taking family vacations (i.e. kids and I) without her. One of my best friends, with kids, had divorced the previous fall and now he and I were executing lots of good times with our combined five kids. Her hamster was figuring out I could run the big show without her. Then again….maybe she was getting tapped by Chad while I was gone…..fuck I really don’t know.

In the summer of 2009 the shit really hit the fan in a good way. I started a KETO diet as New Year’s resolution and began lifting again…..sex is picking up even more. Then in August the wife and I had the following paraphrased conversation. The kids were at my mom’s this week; and everything was going well between us that week. Wife: “Oh we will move here and do blah blah blah when our kids are grown up”. Me: “I am not really sure all that will happen. Given the way you treat me and the quality of our sex life; I plan on divorcing you when the kids get older. Not sure when; but I am pretty damn sure I can do a lot better.”

Her: silence followed by rapidly changing the subject to some banal shit. I had been thinking this for years. I had no intention of saying it at the moment; and was surprised myself when the words rolled out of my mouth ice cold with zero emotion. I left two days later for a week-long dads+kids boating trip with my buddy. When I returned, the hamster had replaced my wife. The bitch and constant shit test were gone. Sex was now every weekday and 2-4 times a day on the weekend. Blowjobs were weekly and she was often initiating. We were having sex in all the various rooms of our giant house for the first time since it was built (a six year ago promise finally delivered). None of this was duty or starfish as she was full bore into it. I actually turned her down twice over the next year as she was just wearing me out. This would be the best sex of our entire relationship, surpassing the college years.

The super high intensity sex lasted for ~14 months; and then steadily dropped off to around four times per week by early 2013 (quality was maintained throughout the drop off though). The saddest thing is I was completely unaware of why these changes had actually occurred. In discussion with my friends, consensus was the “old wives tale” about a woman going through one last libido explosion around 40 before hitting menopause. Fucking ugh….wrong answer. Note during this time in no way did I start passing the slowly creeping back in shit test or earn back the helm. I continued to smoke pot all the time; and my weight started to move back up. In 2013, the starfish reappeared and it all started rapidly sliding back down the hill to around 3 per week. 3 per week might sound ok until you consider this was almost all around ovulation, with remainder of the month being sex every 5-7 days. Blowjobs getting real rare; but not non-existent. Zero initiation from her. I had a real opportunity for a major reset and blew it.

As both the sex and her interest in spending time with me in general dropped again, I began to suspect an affair for no other reason than her apathy. For the last three years I have monitored her cell phone, computer, and location with a variety of GPS tools. I have found nothing indicating an affair. In fact, I would say this activity has been a disaster for my frame and my paranoia has exacerbated my beta mindset. My wife is much focused on my health, and jokingly (but not really…..) states this is so I can live a long time and earn lots of money. She has stated plans of retiring in 10 years to pursue philanthropic work while I continue to earn. I made it clear in early 2014 that not having sex at least every other day was killing me (stress). Summer 2014 I received a promotion to a level few obtain in our corporation (still killing the job); and started KETO diet and lifting again. Sex started improving again but nothing like before as there was still a lot of starfish and “duty” feel to it.

 

Finding the Red Pill

By spring 2015 I was down to less than 20% body fat from >30%. I had a skiing accident in May that destroyed my shoulder; and put the weight lifting on hiatus although I continued cardio. In August I had surgery to rebuild the shoulder. As has been documented here repeatedly, my post-surgery physically weakened state brought on a drought in the bedroom and non-stop shit test. I was on narcotic painkillers that were interfering with sleep badly. The wife took a business trip which in my altered state seemed suspicious. When she returned home late at night I was in bed crying (fucking cringe); and I accused her of cheating on me (she was not). I stopped taking the painkillers the next day and just endured it; but with better sleep. Over the next week; I unleashed the mother of all beta-victim pukes on her. This included finally confronting her over her emotional (at minimum) affair 16 years ago with co-worker. At first, she said he was just a friend and more of a “father figure” (hah….). I then confronted her with her diary and fact that no one wants to fuck their “father”. She just kept insisting “nothing happened”. The only two things I learned in these pukes was “she just stopped caring about the relationship in 2006 because I just kept hurting/disappointing her”; and although “she loved me, she was not in love with me” (ugh). We discussed the possibility of counseling for the first time ever; but decided against it (thank god).

The following week feeling like I would never be satisfied in my marriage and the stress would kill me, I started researching medication to reduce my libido. Surprisingly, there is nothing that is also not highly psychoactive. My research took me to this website http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2007/09/10/seeking-ways-to/ (aka dead bedrooms). Comments lead me to NMMNG. A NMMNG blog lead me to MRP. Reading NMMNG is like a biography of my relationships with women. In contrast, none of NMMNG applies to my relations in work or my family.

 

Following is a description of my current relationship with wife:

• Shit test and compliance were daily/hourly before taking pill; but have slowed down significantly since. I have implemented STFU and just ignoring many compliance test with a look of “yea…right”. I am working into A&A and amused mastery; but I am not quick witted so this needs some work.

• Up until taking red pill; I cannot remember the last time there was anything like a comfort test (because she has “checked out”). Think I passed the two that have occurred in last two months.

• She shows no interest in spending any time with me at all. I have to initiate any interaction; and often have to plead or badger to get time. Since taking pill I have stopped the pleading; and now just command the time. If rejected then I try IDGAF but it is an act…… We seem to enjoy each other’s company when together; but I am clearly the last priority in her life.

• Sex is 4-5 times a week outside of shark week. Here is the problem though, sex only occurs between the hours of 3 and 7 am in the morning and in our bed. This has been the case since the fall off in 2013. Sex at night (before going to bed) occurs less than a dozen times per year; and only during ovulation. Sex during the day or outside of our bed has not occurred in many years now. IMO, the wife has to be unconscious or semi-conscious for me to successfully initiate.

• Sex was about 25-50% starfish before taking pill; and is now down to less than 10%. When it is on; it is often quite good. I have always been dominant with a lot of throwing her around and caveman pounding. In the last year (before red pill); I started introducing a lot more dominance such as restraining and choking along with derogatory word play. Since red pill, I have went all in on this with tying her up, spanking her ass, calling her a slut, race play, etc. She absolutely loves this stuff with moaning, “fuck me harder”, and multiple orgasms largely independent of her cycle.

• On the other hand, she refuses to look me in the eye during sex. She refuses to kiss me during sex. Blowjobs are rare, only during ovulation after I eat her out, only if I jump up and shove my dick in her mouth, and never to completion. I have cum in her mouth once since we have been married.

• Implementing Athol Kay’s 10 second kiss during the day has been like pulling teeth….but slow progress is being made.

 

Shit I am owning:

• Diet and exercise. I am down to college-sophomore weight (14% body fat using “Navy” calculator); going to gym 4-6 times per week and really adding iron each week. On machines since surgery recovery, but planning on going back to free weights in February. It is worth noting that wife followed suit on my weight loss six months after I started, and is now down to pre-pregnancy weight (no time in gym though).

• I stopped smoking pot all time back in April 2015 primarily because it interfered with diet and was starting to impact my straight-cognitive abilities. Still hit it once in a while with my buddies; but zero when around wife or family.

• I cut porn from 1-2 per day to 1-2 per month in October. She was unhappy with my porn obsession; and knows I am off of it.

• I have bought completely new wardrobe and had clothes tailored to fit in October. Since I have always dressed like a slob; this was a major change that wife and everyone around me has noticed. I switched to contacts from glasses which I have worn since childhood. Removed some of the grey from my hair, and overall improvement to grooming. My overall appearance has changed so much that folks I do not see every day (including relatives); do not actually recognize me. I have been getting attention from random women like never before in my life.

• I have stopped all complaining or showing signs of any physical or mental weakness to wife.

• I have killed the covert contracts. I no longer do anything with an expectation of sex. Either I want to or should be doing something; or I just don’t do it.

• I am faking OI when rejected for sex or companionship about 90%. This was a drastic change to my previous behavior.

• I have been building my abundance mentality by interacting with women at any opportunity. I have also spent a lot of time on dating websites, and researching the scene. This has helped my frame because it obvious given the field and the competition; I could be into all kinds of pussy within days/weeks of divorce.

• I resumed control finances in November; and have made significant improvements to our already positive cash flow since. I have been fixing things around the house; and have taken on some big jobs that I would have previously contracted out. The finance coup brought on the only argument I have engaged in since taking the pill. However, last week she was complimenting me on how much more positive cash flow has been since I took over.

• I have been taking every available opportunity to engage socially with other folks in the presence of the wife. I have not been practicing any active dread in front of wife. However, I am getting plenty of (new) attention from the sport-moms, her friends, and sisters. Major IOIs. She has said nothing indicating she notices this…..but I think she is just maintaining frame. However, it is worth noting that sex after these types of interactions is always kicked up a notch.

• I have been re-engaging in old hobbies and with friends. Rejoined poker club and biking/paddling club. Basically, I have been working towards being the funny/cocky guy she was attracted to way back in the day. I was invited to a weekly trivia night at a local bar by some hot/female 20-something co-workers; and have been going every week for last six weeks. This appears to be inspiring some dread in the wife; and inspired the first comfort test in forever.

• I have consulted with two different divorce lawyers; and confirmed I would not be on the hook for either her family living with us or any alimony (our incomes are 60/40, but she has identical credentials and work experience/opportunities as I do).

 

Shit I am not owning:

• Shit test and compliance test. I still have a long way to go here. I feel like a deer in the headlights. Shit test have dropped big time since taking pill; but compliance test continues and I continue to fail. Half the time I just comply out of reflex; and the other half I don’t want to endure shit test for not complying. I need to move beyond STFU.

• Rollo says whomever needs the other the most is at risk for being used and taken advantage of….. I feel like shit admitting it, but at this point I always feel like I need/want her more than she does me. No doubt she is aware of this fact. It has not always been this way, but at this point my hamster runs laps on hers. Her frame is rock solid compared to mine at this point; and this is my main problem.

• During my brief angrier phase, I was actively withdrawing attention in particular around rejection associated with 10 second kiss. I have since backed off the withdrawal, not wanting to go Rambo, working on my IDGAF, and realizing I am not ready for anything resembling a main event.

 

What do I want…..?

I fucking want it all. I want a wife that is DTF whenever and wherever, and is enthusiastic about it more often than not. I want random blowjobs. I want a woman that obviously wants to be around me.

 

When do I want it…?

I am five years out from my youngest starting college; and I have no intent of missing any of my kids’ lives between now and then. After that and short of getting what I want/need; divorce is definitely an option with little downside and a lot of upside. Having already seen two divorce lawyers, I will continue to interview two more a year to both bone up and taint the pool. Having already fucked this up; I am trying to take a patient (not easy) and methodical approach to implementing MRP. Basically, I plan on not moving to dread level 8 for the first year and not making ultimatums for two years (24 months of MRP and years of marriage). After that….I will start looking outside of the marriage for my needs until I can leave for good.

 

What is my question…?

I know I need to continue increasing my SMV. I would say from an outsider perspective, we are probably equal now and I can surpass her. From her (that actually matters) perspective, it is obviously not high enough and I am quite truthfully unsure whether I can move it very much at this point. I know I need to improve my frame/shit/compliance/comfort test. Based on my reading of MRP; I am unsure of how I should handle the rigidity of our sex life. I am working on all day flirting and KINO; and I do initiate at night and during day on weekends to no avail. Should I be withdrawing attention on these hard No’s? I have considered stopping initiating in the morning; and seeing who breaks first (I wouldn’t bet on me……). Any advice on these questions or my general predicament is appreciated.

 

[EDIT] Formatting was a disaster. My apologies for the wall of text induced headaches.

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Post Information
Title Weak Frame Is My Biggest Problem
Author Persaeus
Upvotes 36
Comments 67
Date January 11, 2016 10:00 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MarriedRedPill
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/weak-frame-is-my-biggest-problem.200486
https://theredarchive.com/post/200486
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/40j5i1/weak_frame_is_my_biggest_problem/
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Comments

[–]IASGame17 points18 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Weak frame is everybody's problem.

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]IASGame0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Frame is the cornerstone but it is hard to give advice to strengthen it. Each man needs to have his own Frame, so the Experts here can't build the Frame for me and I can't build it for you.

My advice here is to be observant and learn. Don't let your ego get in the way of the process. You need to get yourself into a position where you are the Prize, and you deeply believe it.

In my case, a major way I break Frame is getting enmeshed (involved) in "logical" arguments with my wife (I think I'm very logical). For this reason, the book WISNIFG was very helpful for me.

I also care too much about her (in the sense that if she e.g. verbally "attacks" me I do GAF, when I probably shouldn't).

I'm getting better, but I'm not there yet (and I don't mean this in the sense that the journey never ends, I mean that I'm not even good at it yet).

[–]innominating10 points11 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

First, that is some fucking saga. Second, SSRIs will lower you libido, if that is a direction you want to take.

Now, my take. Your wife resents you. She is fucking you a lot right now, not the way you want, but a lot. She is doing so because she wants you to provide for her and her family for all the livelong days, and you told her that you were out if she doesn't. She resents you.

To complicate the matter, she thinks you can't live without sex and she can live without sex. She is in control of the sex, so she is in control of the relationship.

However, the real problem I saw in that wall of text is that you are desperately and constantly seeking your wife's validation. Stop wanting her to want you. Stop looking to her like a mommy, waiting her to tell you good job. Find some other way to validate your ego. Find a way to stop giving a fuck.

Also, there is no reason to slow dread down, just because you think you >already fucked this up.

Yes, you have fucked some serious shit up, but she has been AWALT over and over again. Go back to dread level four and and progress normally.

[–]Persaeus[S] 4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

First and last saga.... Yea I checked into the SSRIs. No thanks to that early and slow death of all that is me. So I guess if apathy is the opposite of love, than resentment is a couple levels worse or is it not? Agreed on validation seeking, but I am struggling with:

Stop wanting her to want you.

Desire cannot be negotiated, but aren't "desire" and "want" synonymous?

[–]neocelt4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

"Find some other way to validate your ego" What he said .

Why do you want the affection of someone who doesn't wants yours?

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No masochism....self destructive streak (i.e. risk taking) yea. Correct on diversion; but diversion with a puss will not correct underlying problem.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In my MRP view, the problem mostly lies with me. Probably end up in same place with new/different woman if I don't get my shit together first. Might as well try first with the one that already has her hand in my fat stacks.

[–]neocelt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I rea somewhere on r/seduction that oneitis is just a temporary yearning for intimacy. NMMNG says that best thing you can do for your relationship is have guy friends. its satisfies the need for intimacy , thus giving you perspective on your relationship, letting you want her instead of needing her.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you are thinking the SSRI route, I can suggest piracetams, they are online, focus medication, and tend to be a very very weak version of. Won't affect your stroke number, and you don't get the same head cloudiness. 5 800mg tabs a day is a good dosage. I don't see the need to go that route though

As for your question, want is higher brain, desire is lizard brain. Try changing your mindset. Instead of wanting 'that' girl, how about just wanting to be awesome, and being open to 'a' girl.

Have your divorce lawyers talked about infidelity in a legal sense? If it has no bearing, then I would suggest putting it on the table. If you're on the fence about checking-out already, might as well own it.

[–]Persaeus[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I live in a no fault state. Not making any decisions on infidelity at this point; but it is on the table few years from now. As one commenter pointed out, 264 month marriage and 4 months RP. Need to give me some time to be awesomer in her eyes.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Need to give me some time to be awesomer in her eyes.

you are your one and only judge

[–]innominating0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't recommend the SSRI route. In retrospect, 10 years of SSRIs was a long and level descent to Beta for me.

So I guess if apathy is the opposite of love, than resentment is a couple levels worse or is it not?

Love is just a is a reflection of biochemical responses caused and experienced between two humans. Apathy is a total lack of biochemical response. Resentment is a strong biochemical response. What is "worse" depends on what you want. If you want her as a wife, you are better with resentment.s

Desire cannot be negotiated, but aren't "desire" and "want" synonymous?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the subject of this sentence is: "aren't we all trying to make women desire us, so isn't ok that I want my wife to want me?"

You are missing the fucking point. Stop wanting her to desire you, because that will make her want you. This is a basic tenant of MRP and the reading. Get busy. Make yourself happy without validation from her, and she will begin to validate you. That is why you lift, get hobbies, etc., and do it for yourself, not for her.

Read The Way of the Superior Man, if you haven't already. Be a man going his own way and truly believe that she is lucky to get to come along for the ride, and then the will desire you.

[–] points points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep...totally agree

[–]JDRoedell4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm probably too new give much advice but I would kill for sex 3-4 times a week.

[–]mrpCamper0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

3 times a week is a good goal when starting out coming from near dead bedroom. Personally, I find this to be about what I want/need. Roughly ever other night and both weekend nights get you there. Getting there was not as hard as I expected but certainly not instantaneous. Good Luck bro.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm a once every 3 days kind of guy, except leg day. I'm starfish on leg day, and being the initiator, kind of removes the option for me.

[–]Redpilllife790 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree. 3-4 times a week would be awesome. More is always wanted of course but if I was getting quality sex 3-4 times a week would really make me feel great.

[–]JamesSkepp2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

tl/dr

Formatting is your friend, so is being succinct.

Frame doesn't come from "wanting frame". It comes from practice. The more you are tested, even if broken, the better.

[–]Persaeus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Formatting did not turn out the way I intended. Thanks for advice on frame.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to echo the OP in thanking you for the comment on frame coming from practice. Very succint and helpful.

[–]jacktenofhearts4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

OK, so, number one, I am fucking infuriated with the shitty formatting in this post. Everyone here knows I literally get me fucking nuts off at parsing everyone's victim puke's and you had a fucking treasure trove of puke I would normally enjoy sifting through, and you fucking can't seem to remember that starting a new line break in Reddit means hitting the enter key twice. So, seriously, go fuck yourself and this unreadable piece of shit.

In the summer of 2009 the shit really hit the fan in a good way. I started a KETO diet as New Year’s resolution and began lifting again…..sex is picking up even more. Then in August the wife and I had the following paraphrased conversation. The kids were at my mom’s this week; and everything was going well between us that week. Wife: “Oh we will move here and do blah blah blah when our kids are grown up”. Me: “I am not really sure all that will happen. Given the way you treat me and the quality of our sex life; I plan on divorcing you when the kids get older. Not sure when; but I am pretty damn sure I can do a lot better.” Her: silence followed by rapidly changing the subject to some banal shit. I had been thinking this for years. I had no intention of saying it at the moment; and was surprised myself when the words rolled out of my mouth ice cold with zero emotion. I left two days later for a week-long dads+kids boating trip with my buddy. When I returned, the hamster had replaced my wife.

Regardless, of my complaint, I did try and sort through this and your answer is right here.

This was your fucking frame, dipshit. In your mind, you were so despondent about your marriage that you started coming to terms with its demise, much like a loved one with a terminal form of cancer. You saw it lying in the hospital bed, veins shoved with fluid ounces of morphine, and still writhing and pain and on the razor's edge of death. And you thought, Well, this is probably going to happen. Death is in the future. I should probably come to terms with it.

This is your frame. This is a fucking rock-solid amazing stoic frame that all of us are, essentially, in pursuit of.

This one thing could all end. I don't want it too, but it could. So be it. What happens if that one thing ends? It'll just be life, minus that one thing. So it'll still be life, however shortened. I can live with life.

THAT IS YOUR FRAME!

DIPSHIT!

But.

BUT.

You lost that.

I feel like shit admitting it, but at this point I always feel like I need/want her more than she does me. No doubt she is aware of this fact. It has not always been this way, but at this point my hamster runs laps on hers. Her frame is rock solid compared to mine at this point; and this is my main problem.

Through some accidental measures, and then some deliberate measures, the patient is still alive. The doctors declared remission. A few years pass, and your loved one sees the doctors again and they have some bad news. The cancer may have returned.

What are you thinking now?

How could this one thing end? I don't like it but I don't want it to end. But it could get better. It got better before. Wouldn't it be great if it just got better? But what if it doesn't get any better? What if it gets worse, and then ends? I hate the idea this is not getting better, because that may mean it's getting worse. And if it gets worse it'll end. I don't want it to end! How could it end! They just coughed, does that mean it's ending!?

The Red Pill gave you a prescriptive solution to your problems. It gave you objective, deconstructed advice on what to do. You recognize some similarities with your behavior in 2009 to 20wheneverthefuckandfuckyoufornotusingparagraphs. But this advice, while more effective, gives you a self-awareness. And this self-awareness, paradoxically speaking, prevents you from expressing the same stoicism.

So on the same vein of the analogy I've been using, a few years ago my wife had a loved one -- an uncle -- who had early stage lung cancer, and we were all aboard the Thoughts and Prayers train. We fucking Thought and Prayered that shit so fucking hard. But if we were honest with ourselves, we knew it was all kind of pointless. This person was probably going to die. You can't Thought and Prayer cancer away, right? But we all had this sort of zen positivity to it. Dear Lord, please do not take this man from our lives before his time...

Yet while recognizing that, as an 82 year old smoker, it was, probably, his time.

Now, her uncle lived. He's still alive. His qualify of life is actually pretty good too. But I think, if he ended up back in the hospital, let's say the doctor says, You know, those Thoughts and Prayers really helped last time. Keep doing that.

There is no fucking "zen positivity this time." If this uncle's health got worse, my wife would whirl on me and say, "why the fuck aren't you being more positive! Which... isn't very positive. Our self-awareness for what was effective, would prevent us from doing the same thing with equal effectiveness.

Hopefully you should see the analogy here. And if you don't, fuck you, because it was still more comprehensive than your poorly formatted wall of text.

I am sure you have been told many times in your life, "you may be overthinking this." In fact, your marijuana habit may have been helpful because it prevents you from overthinking things, which means you're actually more mentally functional in some ways. Your hamster calms the fuck down, since it's feeling nice and good and high and eating a bag of Doritos. Thoughts and Prayers come easy.

But as you've realized, depressants make you less mentally functional in other ways, namely making you a lethargic fatass. Which would subjectively help you maintain this frame, but objectively make you less attractive to your wife.

Man, lose-lose, right?

So you're going to need to find a way to get to that zen, or dare I say high, state of mind without that substance. I don't know what that is. My gut read, based on your (FUCKING MOSTLY INCOMPREHENSIBLE) text is something like meditation or yoga. Zen the fuck out. Or maybe just some form of mental exposure exercises. Literally imagine, in the most painstaking ways possible, how your divorce could unfold. Imagine the fucking crushed heartbreak from your children, and then realize... you'll live. They'll live. Everyone will fucking live, this is hardly the worst outcome in your life, and it's a picnic compared to Stage Whateverthefuck Lung Cancer. And that attitude, paradoxically, will mean nothing has to (figuratively) die, even your marriage.

So that's your homework. Find some mental exercises to replace the stoic state of mind that marijuana accidentally gave you. Or, as alternative homework, re-format your godawful excuse for a Reddit post into something I can actually read. To be honest, the mediation shit is probably easier, so I would recommend that. But you could click "Edit" and then hit the "enter" button a few more times too.

[–]Redneck0011 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Normally like your posts and perspective. But goddamn! Got it the first time you went full Grammar Nazi.

I post regularly, and I don't know all the markdown tricks. Not everyone writes 8,000 word and 20 minute reads on Reddit.

Check yourself, dude.

FWIW, imo OP ia almost there, if he can get out of his own head. Loved the cold "this shit ain't gonna last" talk. I see many parallels with OP. We're about the same age, we're had similar experiences in marriage. And we like our chiba.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

chiba

What is chiba

[–]Redneck0010 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

From your OP, you're quite familiar with it.

I fight a daily battle to prevent early onset glaucoma.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was your fucking frame, dipshit. In your mind, you were so despondent about your marriage that you started coming to terms with its demise.

 

This is still my frame. As you suggested, I have already thought through what life would be like after divorce (a lot). Except for the pain inflicted on my children it mostly looks like a real opportunity to restart my life with the hindsight and wisdom I did not have in my youth; and without the baggage I have wrought. I am of a divorced family myself (age 11); and not only did I totally get over that shit quickly, I can see in hindsight it was significant net improvement. Assuming I cannot unfuck this marriage, my MAP has me serving papers January 2021 which affords my youngest 8 months to recover before starting college. All that being said, life would be much better if I could reset my marriage and unearth the fun/carefree woman I married. So I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how to improve the relationship; and in the moment (i.e. now) need her attention more than she needs mine. I am capable of very high levels of cognitive dissonance, which is great for engineering/problem solving; but makes for one hell of a hamster. Female validation is clearly my central issue; and I will work on this.

Yeah I understand your analogy and don’t think awareness of the solution (Zen positivity) will be a problem.

Your description of why I smoked marijuana is dead on; and something I have been consciously aware of since high school. I have used it to slow down my otherwise racing mind; and chill. I have also used it to “see” the solution to a great many problems (technical and otherwise) as it shuts down the hamster herd. Part of the reason I stopped is because in last few years it sometimes had the opposite affect and essentially brought on panic attacks.

Part 1 of homework (formatting) complete. Will work on Part 2....Zen to replace the marijuana.

[–]fiddel_fabulous2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey congrats on the first wall if text I actually read through. I think you're kicking ass with a solid mrp base in place.

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Really appreciate the advise. Yes, I am "intense" in the way you describe; but maybe not as much as your thinking (I have known and worked with a few of the people you are talking about).

In the pre-kid years I had problems disengaging from work (a sometimes very adversarial environment); and would often here "I don't want that guy from work" kinda stuff. After kids, I got a lot better at letting work go and have not heard the "work guy" comment from wife for long time.

Yes, I have a great time with kids (now teenagers) and am leading the family on anything/most everything that is fun in our family. Cracking jokes and making kids laugh all the time. Wife's sense of humor and fun is not her strong point (not just my view but my external-family view as well). She has enjoyed my humor in last year; and especially since swallowing pill than in past (progress!!).

We have always "got along on on a day to day basis", and have never been at each others throat for more than a day or two in a row. I was not gaming my wife pre-pill. I have been over the last three month; and she has been receptive to it. Overall, since I started MRP we have been getting along better OUTSIDE of bedroom then I can remember (pre-kids....maybe even pre-marriage). I know it is any oxymoron, but yes I became aware of my solipsistic worldview at the age of ~30. My wife views me as self-centered (true) and selfish (not true). I know this because she switched from covert to overt communication years ago.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Can you suggest literature on "emotional push/pull"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the professors reading list, the titles of the helpful books will be obvious

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Pick a target, any goal, that has absolutely nothing to do with her. Then march off and do what it takes to reach it.

As these goals become more significant, so will your determination to reach them with or without her. The leader says "We are going that way" - and then he leads.

Set goals for every area of life - physical, spiritual, financial - and attack them ruthlessly no matter what anyone says or what trouble comes your way.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, see reply to MRPguy below.

[–]marxistbacon 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy Link

This was a great breakdown. You obviously have dissected and learned from your past with a RP lens quite thoroughly. What I read is that of the three human aspects (those being mind, body, spirit), you have the mind part and body part well in hand. Meaning that your book knowledge and analytical skills are great and you've used them to drive your body where you want, in diet and fitness. But everything you describe in your "shit I'm not owning" paragraph, which is where the real meat lies, is your spirit. The funny thing is that, like another commenter pointed out, you're great at living in your head in an analytic way. I get this - in a lot of ways your background has a lot of parallels to my own life - age, kids, career, marital shutdowns. But you totally suck at internalizing the emotional, non-analytical side of the "spirit" you need to cultivate. Call it attitude, call it frame, call it life outlook, call it emotional resiliency or inflappability. You're great at addressing the analytic side - you recognize various defects, then identify the canonical response (e.g. IDGAF after rejection) but you can't actually implement the IDGAF. So yeah, I agree with your assessment that frame is your weakest problem. And as long as that part stays weak, you can gain all the SMV you want, but the weakest link in the chain will still limit your success.

So the question is really, how do you develop your strength in that emotional side? That strength that tells you at a deep gut visceral level that you have your shit together and you don't need to feel like the deer in the headlights when she starts grilling you on this, that, or the other. I'll venture a guess that your own insecurities and unease when facing down a shit test (or any negative emotional) are tainting your overall view of your relationship. In your "what do I want" section - perhaps you're even using the "sex quality/frequency metric" as a way of disguising this dissatisfaction and putting it all on her: "she doesn't give me XYZ sex, therefore I'm not content in this relationship" rather than just admitting that "I'm uncomfortable with handling conflict, and there's a lot of conflict in this relationship, therefore I'm nto content in this relationship", which would put it on you. But I'm just speculating here.

Anyways, back to the emotional/frame-building thing. The trouble is, it's hard to convince your "emotional side" (for want of a better term) by logic, when your subconscious is screaming "deer in the headlights" at full volume in the background. Some guys seem to be able to do it, but it took me a longer time before I felt like I was on the right track. Some of the stuff that worked for me in no particular order: Really reflecting on my own self worth, almost to the point of meditation or "visualization" before going to bed/waking up. Meditating and reflecting on accepting the separateness of any two people, no need to feel guilty for wanting what you want, no needs to smooth the other's feelings or be upset just because they're upset. If you came from a place where NMMNG resonated, this may be hard. Affirmations, mantras, whatever you want to call them, reflecting on these things. Even self-hypnosis helped for a while to rebuild these concepts. Facing down conflict head on to gain experience in learning to harness my temper, anger, and develop more of a "distance" that allowed me to respond to her tantrums, accusations, and other BS without getting so drawn into the emotional side. I've been through a lot of down-and-dirty vocal fights and in a ways it's burned out my over-responsive centers, leaving me calmer. But that only happens after you dissect and look at how you fucked up and got drawn into bad answers, escalations, etc. Not suggesting you get into fights, but just relaying that they're not always 100% downside.

You describe yourself as "not quick witted" (when you talked about dealing with shit tests), which sounds in general like BS characterization given the amount of reflection and understanding you show in your breakdown. More likely, you go searching for an answer or response in your head because you don't have that emotional centre, that sense of self worth and independence from which a solid answer would immediately flow. IMHO developing this would be the best return on investment, rather than hammering solely on the kino/sex life/ dread aspects.

Anyways, good luck.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

"I'm uncomfortable with handling conflict, and there's a lot of conflict in this relationship, therefore I'm not content in this relationship"

This is dead on.....funny thing is it only applies to wife. I eat conflict at work or with family for breakfast and DGAF. Thanks for ideas on improving self worth.

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks. I think my abundance mentality is fine. Never been hard for me to get women pre-marriage; and I have had to resist affairs in my marriage twice. My problem (a long standing one in RP hindsight) is my validation seeking from LTR-women. Hence the need to seek validation elsewhere or arrive at it internally. I am curious as to what you mean by "staying power"?

[–]MRPguy0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Now on a purposeful journey; destination unknown.

Shit, that's your first paragraph, your TL;DR. Good luck on a purposeful journey to an unknown destination. You'd better get that worked out or you are in for a world of hurt.

You talk about weak frame, shit tests, divorce lawyers (2!), you needing her and her not wanting you...figure out what YOU want, throw everything else by the wayside and be a MASCULINE MAN working directly towards that goal. Nothing will get in your way, nothing will sidetrack you, you want your goal with a passion and will maul anything that stands between you and your goal.

So what is your goal?

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Only part of destination that is unknown is whether wife will be on the journey. I have many goals (physical, spiritual, financial...not going for another wall of text on these) all of which are nicely on track with the exception of my relationship with wife. Not saying it all smooth as glass, but 80/20 yes. However, your and other reply point that I am subjugating my goals to being wanted by wife is true and a problem. I see the pattern in the advise, and will heed it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

whether wife will be on the journey

not your problem. you just need her to be a pleasant roommate until the kids move out (your words)

[–]enfier0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Frame boils down to simply having your emotions, words and actions all pointing in the same direction - the direction you want. When those things match up and it's generally positive, people will be able to trust you.

The Dalai Lama has frame for days. Frame doesn't mean that you have to be aggressive or not have any consideration for the needs and want for others. It means you aren't easily swayed from your good mood and direction in life.

The life you've described is pretty much the opposite of frame. You'll have to find ways to be happy that aren't dependent on your wife and learn to treat the obstacles in your path as the speed bumps they are.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your explanation of frame is simple and understandable. This helps.

[–]TrimHer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey-quality post. Reminded me to review compliance tests.

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Never been accused of lacking internal confidence, so that part of my frame is OK. Thanks for input on compliance test. I get that making it fun while passing is key. Still working out how to make it fun....would not say sense of humor is her strong suit (being kind).

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I like your thinking here and find it useful. Wife may be essentially mirroring my anxiety relative to relationship. All about maintaining that IDGAF Zen Happy deep down.

[–] points points | Copy Link

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I cannot reconcile them. The physical (confident), mental (very confident), and spiritual (not confident) is where I am it. Life of faking it to make it quite well; but it breaks down with meeting new people in unfamiliar environments (type of social anxiety disorder) and LTR (validation).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I took it as him having humility... Not a bad thing, we can all see how ego can fuck up a MAP.

Being the engineer type, I can see him detaching from this emotionally, and getting the job done, it's that last vestige of disney he has to shake out, and I think he'll do fine

[–]druganswer 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Apologies for this getting a bit off track in the middle and pertaining more to OP than you, but kind of going all over the place

I'm not accusing him of having weak frame; I was sort of offering that up as a self test.

I admittedly skimmed the first time I read this but took some more time to read into it now. I still think confidence is a huge thing that he thinks he has, but does not. There are lines where I'm like BOO YAH you got it! and then a few lines later:

In fact, I would say this activity has been a disaster for my frame and my paranoia has exacerbated my beta mindset. My wife is much focused on my health, and jokingly (but not really…..) states this is so I can live a long time and earn lots of money. She has stated plans of retiring in 10 years to pursue philanthropic work while I continue to earn. I made it clear in early 2014 that not having sex at least every other day was killing me (stress).

3 years of constant snooping, talking about lack of sex stressing him out, etc.

That being before RP... but then again:

If rejected then I try IDGAF but it is an act…… We seem to enjoy each other’s company when together; but I am clearly the last priority in her life.

Abundance mentality and internal confidence would make this not an act. I would suggest going out to places where IOIs are common to obtain a real "if she doesn't value my time, someone will" feeling.

On the other hand, she refuses to look me in the eye during sex. She refuses to kiss me during sex.

Any of the older guys have theories on this? This and the only having sex middle of the night to me is a HUGE red flag.

I have been building my abundance mentality by interacting with women at any opportunity. I have also spent a lot of time on dating websites, and researching the scene. This has helped my frame because it obvious given the field and the competition; I could be into all kinds of pussy within days/weeks of divorce.

OP.. My personal opinion only: Get off the dating websites. I got on some just to "test the waters" and it immensely fucked with my frame. I felt like a "bad guy" for being on them, but I never actually used them to test the waters.. It was just validation craving... I put that shit to rest and my frame seriously took a turn for the better.

Basically, I have been working towards being the funny/cocky guy she was attracted to way back in the day.

You covered this in your owning shit, but your life is revolving around her... work on being the guy you want to be. When you look in the mirror think about yourself, not how your wife might perceive you.... This is a huge crack in your frame and will cause problems until you are working on yourself and for yourself. You say you can get another woman quick but it doesn't sound like you are even somewhat open to the idea. You need to realize the life without the wife won't suck, but will have a ton of new opportunities you have been missing out on. You haven't been single in X amount of years... it wouldn't kill you to be single at all, you have so many new experiences to look forward to.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree about getting off the dating websites for a variety of reasons including it will not really build confidence.

Since getting below 15% BF, lifting, and dressing/grooming well; it has been a virtual sea of IOI. A real hypergamous eye opener to say the least. Spent last week on a bros ski trip with lots of hot tub time with ladies. Most serious IOI was from the married ones with kids/husband skiing. Actively working the game and getting traction.

I completely realize life w/o wife will not suck. Got of a lot of good advice on patching the cracks in my frame. Thanks for all the help brothers.

[–]skyscan10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Would some of the more experienced among us comment on whether monk mode would help OP.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

he's had 15 year of monk mode, with intermittent breaks from it.

[–]BluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you are having sex multiple times a week then skip ahead to the sex manuals. There are a lot of them. Study sex. Learn how to fuck in different ways and STUDY The Sex God Method

Also work on being a more positive, uplifting, emotionally stable presence. Do you bring the good times with your family?

Many of the tactics on MRP are for a sexually withdrawing wife. If you have demanded it OR ELSE (aka Level 10 Dread) and you are getting it before she is attracted to you this can set up a toxic problem. See /u/Archwinger epic post Every Unhappy wife is a rape victim

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have read many manuals and studied the subject extensively,,,kinda goes with the obsession. I have not read SGM; but am intrigued and will. Worth noting, based on my experience with other women and wife, IMO this is the least of my problems.

I bring just about all the good times there are to my family. Wife is not known for being fun. She once told me she viewed herself more as the "governess" as opposed to the "mom". But yes, I agree and am working on being more positive and uplifting.

I have read /u/Archwinger epic post; and agree that starfish can equate to rape. While I cannot say this hasn't occurred; it is rate and zero since taking RP. It was zero when I kicked the dread up to level 10 six years ago. Quite honestly, I am quite sure she does not even remember the OR ELSE conversation. Her hamster ate it (AWALT).

I reformatted my initial disaster if you care to have another look. Really enjoy your youtube videos.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

My post was labelled NSFW....which I have not seen. Curious as to why.....WTF?

[–]BluepillProfessor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not Safe For Work.

We are talking about sex, rape, Sex God Method, etc.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

For the most part, I get the impression this is more for you to collect your thoughts, than it is for us to read. with that assumption, I'm thinking aloud here:

Me: “I am not really sure all that will happen. Given the way you treat me and the quality of our sex life; I plan on divorcing you when the kids get older. Not sure when; but I am pretty damn sure I can do a lot better.”

I like this, in the whole post, it's the one true moment of honesty. I see a lot of win/complacent/loss cycles going on, not capitalizing on successes seems to be a theme.

I cut porn from 1-2 per day to 1-2 per month in October. She was unhappy with my porn obsession; and knows I am off of it.

Girls are mad about anything that de weaponizes sex. I don't know if OP is 'doing it for her' but I hope not. The hunger that comes from being a little pent up can work for you, but at the same time, sometimes one just needs to get some sleep.

• I have stopped all complaining or showing signs of any physical or mental weakness to wife.

I've always been a little conflicted here. I'm a big fan of guys having a place to be vulnerable, but I also know that at your home, with the loved one you 'lead' is 100% not the place to do this. If you don't have a friend that you can be weak in front of, and not bite you in the ass, then you don't have a friend. They are hard to find, and if this is a sticking point, I suggest most men work on it. Best thing that worked for mine (I have 2) is to put them in a situation where they could ruin your life (or you theirs) and you don't. Preferrably the latter, since it's easier to have someone trust you when they have seen it happen, and are more willing/obligated to respond in kind. It's why the military is great for that. After a deployment or two, pretty much every guy had their 'ship wife'. really makes me sad that the old places men used to group together kept getting invaded by harpies... the enlightenment coffee houses sounded like a great place to be.

I resumed control finances in November; and have made significant improvements to our already positive cash flow since. I have been fixing things around the house; and have taken on some big jobs that I would have previously contracted out. The finance coup brought on the only argument I have engaged in since taking the pill. However, last week she was complimenting me on how much more positive cash flow has been since I took over.

Bringing success to the family, kicking and screaming. For me, this was huge in finding out exactly how much you have to ignore what your woman says. They have no idea what they want, how to do it, or where to start. They fight constantly for any amount of stoicism with finances, and I pretty much had to put the relationship on the chopping block to make a point. Lots of happiness after the fact though. Kicking and screaming

we are probably equal now and I can surpass her.

I fucking hate when people assess their SMV. It's not for you to assess, it's for each individual girl, and it's a subjective measure. You could be a greek god, with a wallet of steel, and 20 year olds think of you as the great 10/10 silverback. But your wife at home knows you as the former pothead that never earned enough for 'her lifestyle' and guess what, you're forever a 4/10. Hence, dread. When those other girls are treating you like a 10, then it forces her to form a consensus and up your number, but it really involved no change on your part, just her subjective impressions.

Rule of thumb for me:You don't know your SMV, and it's largely a baby who doesn't want a ball until another baby wants it, then it's the favourite toy.

Having already seen two divorce lawyers, I will continue to interview two more a year to both bone up and taint the pool

Someone with law or a divorce under their belt will have to confirm. I remember seeing talk in TRP about this, and how it's not looked favourably by judges. the example used was neighbours sorting out a property dispute

not making ultimatums for two years

Don't make them. If you have to ask, the answer is no. I know the professor is a living example of it working, but if it takes a 'fuck me or fuck you' and there isn't a compelling reason to stay in the first place (e.g. kids in college) why waste your time on having to scare the shit out of an old lady to fuck you? she had 2 years to see the writing on the wall, that was your ultimatum.


for OP

I don't think you need any serious advice, you know what you have to do, you've assessed it pretty well (anal in fact) And the SMV thing is already there, you're being social, fit, and generally awesome... the rest is just a networking thing. As for the hard no's...

I'm with /u/ultimateCAD and what he will probably say here. Hard no = out of the house for 2 hours, next one? 2 days etc etc. Personally my last field report was along the same lines, but more of a long con. I just take away the carrot. If I'm not getting sex on the regular, I basically have a roommate, and treat her as such. My roommate doesn't get backrubs, affection, and attention normally, just logistics. I also take the mindset that it's already dead, which frees me to do me. It's worked rather well. You'll have to ask CAD for how his plays out generally, but I suspect the same.

Or the professor. His FR had his wife shut him down HARD a few times, had one of those honest moments of brutal reflection (I believe he referenced a saggy old pussy) I wouldn't be surprised if your wife responded well to a 'kick to the head'. she seems to have done that before, and the only issue comes up when she gets complacent.

[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I cut the porn entirely for me; and not for her. Would have never thought it, but this had made me feel much better and hungrier. It has also freed up >hour per day for more productive ventures.

I have several bros I can talk to about anything....so I am good there. Am on the hunt for more to hang with as some are long distance, and everyone is busy. More bros is part of MAP.

Agree completely on self-assessment of SMV; especially in regards to how wife sees mine. Was basing mine on random IOI data; but yea I get it. This is pointless circle jerk thinking.

Ultimately, think the figurative kick to the head will be required. However, being RP aware now and having plenty of time I want to see what can be accomplished with a softer touch. The ball is definitely moving in my direction now; but I will continue to build out on the hobbies.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Simplify. As in simplify the problems so what you're trying to solve is focused.

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes she is Korean-Am (emigrated at 11). We went to a 40 M+ state school so quantity/quality of women was not an issue (55/45 W/M ratio). Yes she still has the body of a 30 year old after two kids; and is prettier than most of the 35 year old other socccer/swim/xzy moms we hang with (lucky me....NOT....that was my plan). If she lifted (cardio only) it could be <25. Of course, this all means I have to keep my SMV up or my shit gets weak fast.

Assuming you are Korean? Interested in your perspective.

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[–]Persaeus[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

To answer your questions. FIL is pretty blue pill; especially in comparison to uncles (MIL brothers who fit your RP description to a "T"). MIL is EXTREMELY strong willed and orders him around a lot; and he takes it although I know he resents it. On the other hand, when his foot comes down she falls into line immediately and she does wait on him hand and foot.

 

She has four sisters with her square in the middle. Her parents completely supported the marriage; although their were several grillings before I got final "approval". There were already mixed marriages in both immediate and extended family. All the SIL were supportive too.

 

PreMed BF was Chinese. I have never seen anything akin to a self-esteem issue from her....which is really amazing compared to any other woman I have known. It pretty much takes an earthquake for her to loose her frame (has happened 4 times in 25+ years; and I was in oak-mode for 3/4). That being said; IMO deep down she wants my leadership. In RP hindsight; I can see how so many of the shit test over the years were actually appeals for me to step up.

 

With her parents living with us, we are clearly in for the end-game of taking care of them. The two younger SIL (one lives with us) are WGOTW; and my two BIL are both lot older and not very healthy. Wife and 4 SIL all have this dream of living together with us after their husbands are dead. Sure this is no surprise to you, but where as most women are kids>husband, she is family>kids>husband. I have had lot difficulty with this concept in past; and RP had helped me accept this. In my BP days, I was supportive of this dream. I am a lot less supportive of it now. Obviously; I am not arguing, DEER, or making any ultimatums until a decision actually needs to be made.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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