TLDR: I have implemented various components of the red pill praxeology throughout my 25+ year LTR/marriage; but in a highly incongruent and non-oak manner that has proved unfulfilling. Ultimately, went betmax to the point of considering chemical self-castration before discovering the red pill. Now on a purposeful journey;
destination wifes' ultimate role in it unknown.
Facts and bona fide
I and wife (both 47) have been married for 22 years after 2 years cohabitation and 2 years LTR in college. We are both engineers and well employed. We have two children ages 13 and 16. I am Caucasian. She is north Asian, and immigrated to USA in middle school. My wife’s parents and sister have lived with us for the last 15 years. I discovered the red pill on 9/14/15; and immediately started choking the thing down. I have read NMMNG, WISNIFG, MMSLF (twice), MAP, TRM (twice + outlined), Models, and all other “TRP 101” sidebar excluding books listed in “TRP Sidebar”. I have also read top the 100+ post on MRP, AskMRP, and TRP (>50 top). I have lifted on/off my entire life; but not heavy until swallowing pill (….I know….ignorant).
I have many questions; which I will mostly address in future post. The purposes of this post are to:
• Introduce myself and situation to provide context for further inquiry. I have fully accepted that my marriage problems are of my own making, that a woman takes the shape of her vessel; and that I have been a drunk (actually high) captain for >15 years. This is a wall of text; but I hope not a victim puke. Feel free to flog if too much puke is visible.
• While neither my wife nor I are snowflakes; the overall expression of our current marital relationship is unusual when compared to the 100s of post I have read. While all of the red pill praxeology is applicable; I would like your input on my situation and my MAP.
- My 20+ year marriage demonstrates how to fuckup a lot of red pill concepts; and the consequences of negotiating a lot of sex with little organic desire. Don’t do it this way…..
Me Before Marriage
From the age of 15 to 23 I had sex with seventeen different women and dated anther dozen-plus, practicing a combination of serial monogamy and plate spinning. Women were HB6-8 with the occasional HB8+ (sorry but no HB9/10 using this honest scale http://www.realmendrinkwhiskey.com/how-to-rate-girls/). My “cold calling”/bar game was atrocious as I am naturally introverted (strongly INTJ on Myers-Brigg type indicator); but my inside classroom/hobbies/circle friends game was solid. In these first 8 years, I never had fewer than three plates spinning and outside of backwoods man trips never went more than 1-3 days between getting fucked/sucked. In terms of the LTRs excluding my wife, in ¾ cases I was the dumpee / not the dumper. In red pill hindsight, the being dumped LTRs were all due to a combination of oneitis/nice guy smothering behavior on my part combined with hypergamy on their part. The lone one I had to put down was just bat shit crazy (stripper…..). Sounds ridiculous in hindsight, but I had a strange combination of actual abundance and serial oneitis. My last LTR; my wife….I can honestly say I approached in a very red pill fashion. I was not aware of my own internal change at the time; but at that point in my life, I had finally just come to conclude “fuck these bitches, I am going to do my thing, and if they want to come along for the ride so be it”. I was in excellent shape, had very interesting jobs, lots of cool hobbies, and was extremely driven to rise from very humble beginning. I rode a motorcycle and had a “rebel/bad boy” reputation.
With Wife – Part 1
Ms. Persaeus and I met in a college TA (teaching assistant) session. Skipping the porno description, within a month of meeting I was into the best she had ever given (nothing off the table). Shortly thereafter I found out she had a LTR of six years with a pre-med student that originated in high school (guess I was Chad in hindsight…..and not the first time this had happened to me). She dumped him within two months of hooking up with me and had zero remorse (AWALT).
The relationship was openly open-ended on my end only for the first year. She maintained I was N=2, and I have never heard anything that cast doubt on this assertion although (maybe double….who knows or cares at this point). She professed her love first; and I was very much dominate in the relationship. I was very confident in picking her as wife material with zero red flags other than our meeting which I rationalized up to her boyfriend being both lame and a jerk (classic nice guy in hindsight). Solid family and background with very little drama. A major factor in picking her was that I found (still do) her to be the most emotionally stable, rational, and independent woman I had ever met. Not saying she was some snow flake; but everything is on a scale and she is on the non-needy end of it.
Upon graduation, we found jobs in the same large company and moved in together in a pretty rural area. As I mentioned above, in college our sex life was HOT…HOT….HOT. After moving in together, anal was suddenly off the table (“hurts too much”). We married two years later (1993) and the honeymoon was the last blowjob I would see for another 15 years. Aside from a smaller menu, our sex life was frequent but not particularly memorable (I don’t remember it being an issue). I would say it was on a very slow decline reflecting my alpha decline until we started trying to conceive at which time there was significant two year jump (97’-99’) in frequency/intensity. I was doing some things right and lot of things wrong. I was killing the career. I still had many interesting/manly hobbies away from my wife; and I would say my frame was in my head and not hers. I was sort of (not) passing shit test; but unfortunately relying almost entirely on nuclear weapons and was unaware of/not passing comfort test. Arguments typically went through an exhaustive DEER process with me ultimately nuking the whole thing from orbit. I also physically let myself go in this period, gained 20 lbs fat and stopped exercising/lifting aside from a life-long dedication to long-distance hiking. She on the other hand looked as good the day I impregnated her as when we met.
I learned in 1998 that she was spending a lot of time with a co-worker and rumors of a relationship got back to me. For the first time, I went straight to an intermittent diary she had kept. In this diary she clearly laid out my emotional inadequacies and how her co-worker met these needs. She described how he gave her the TinglesTM. She also went on and on how this was all wrong, and she needed to switch jobs so as to not be around co-worker. There was never any admission of a physical relationship. This emotional affair lasted 2+ years during which I was closely following her activities in the last 6 months. I never found evidence of a physical affair. During this six months I put my balls and frame squarely in her hands in a bid to win her back. Through some combination of this and getting her pregnant the affair came to an end. Before you ask; for my own sanity I now assume she fucked him, and yes I am covertly submitting paternity test on both kids (both look like mine for what that’s worth). However IMO, she was there for the taking but the co-worker (20 years older) was just too much of a bitch (and married) to pounce. Up until four months ago, she was not aware I knew about this emotional affair. I have forgiven her largely because of AWALT and I completely brought it on myself. However, I have not been able to forget it and it has played havoc with my frame.
With Wife – Part 2
Our first child was born in 2000. In 1999 and 2000, my job required travel ~26 weeks each year. Due to some combination of being a drunk captain and resentment over the affair, I was often gone hunting/fishing or otherwise non-attentive father for first several years. This “abandonment” has been a fixation of hers ever since. I had also retaken up a serious marijuana smoking habit in 1998 that I had laid to rest 10 years earlier. This habit never interfered with work; but was serious. Typically getting high 3-5 nights a week M-F and all weekend long. Wife and family are extremely naive in this regard and I am highly functional with a mild buzz; and have never known about my drug use.
Wife’s parents moved in year-2001 primarily so she could return to work; and we could avoid having our children raised by strangers. Her younger sister moved in a year later after washing out hard from a LTR+startup business. The in-law package was also sold to me based on the premise of being able to continue with my hobbies. Of course, per Bilfrault’s Law this was rapidly forgotten and I was constantly accused of being a poor father for exercising the agreement.
Our second child was born in 2003. We also moved into very large-new house constructed for the now seven of us to live in. From 2001 on; I was steadily deleting my old life, becoming a more involved father, and moving into my wife’s frame. By end-2004, sex was down 2-4 times a month with most of that occurring during ovulation week in spite of the fact that my initiation never dropped to less than >10 times per week (giving up is not my thing). My OI sucked with lots of whining, pleading, and occasional yelling. I did often withdraw both emotionally and physically in response to the hard no. In 2005, I started keeping detailed records on her cycle, our sex life (initiation, yes, no, quality), and the amount of time the wife and I each spent with the kids. Lo and behold; I was 2:1 on her taking care of kids by this point. We argued at least monthly about the lack of sex with her reason always ending up as some variant of me being a poor father; and her being stressed/tired out over the combination of work+kids. I just continued my slide into overweight drunken captain relinquishing more and more control outside of the kids; which I continue to this day to own.
With Wife – Part 3
In the summer of 2008 the blowjob suddenly reappeared and sexual activity started to slowly pickup to around 3 per week by summer 2009. With my detailed records and red pill hindsight, the reason is clear. By this time, she was such a bitch that I started taking family vacations (i.e. kids and I) without her. One of my best friends, with kids, had divorced the previous fall and now he and I were executing lots of good times with our combined five kids. Her hamster was figuring out I could run the big show without her. Then again….maybe she was getting tapped by Chad while I was gone…..fuck I really don’t know.
In the summer of 2009 the shit really hit the fan in a good way. I started a KETO diet as New Year’s resolution and began lifting again…..sex is picking up even more. Then in August the wife and I had the following paraphrased conversation. The kids were at my mom’s this week; and everything was going well between us that week. Wife: “Oh we will move here and do blah blah blah when our kids are grown up”. Me: “I am not really sure all that will happen. Given the way you treat me and the quality of our sex life; I plan on divorcing you when the kids get older. Not sure when; but I am pretty damn sure I can do a lot better.”
Her: silence followed by rapidly changing the subject to some banal shit. I had been thinking this for years. I had no intention of saying it at the moment; and was surprised myself when the words rolled out of my mouth ice cold with zero emotion. I left two days later for a week-long dads+kids boating trip with my buddy. When I returned, the hamster had replaced my wife. The bitch and constant shit test were gone. Sex was now every weekday and 2-4 times a day on the weekend. Blowjobs were weekly and she was often initiating. We were having sex in all the various rooms of our giant house for the first time since it was built (a six year ago promise finally delivered). None of this was duty or starfish as she was full bore into it. I actually turned her down twice over the next year as she was just wearing me out. This would be the best sex of our entire relationship, surpassing the college years.
The super high intensity sex lasted for ~14 months; and then steadily dropped off to around four times per week by early 2013 (quality was maintained throughout the drop off though). The saddest thing is I was completely unaware of why these changes had actually occurred. In discussion with my friends, consensus was the “old wives tale” about a woman going through one last libido explosion around 40 before hitting menopause. Fucking ugh….wrong answer. Note during this time in no way did I start passing the slowly creeping back in shit test or earn back the helm. I continued to smoke pot all the time; and my weight started to move back up. In 2013, the starfish reappeared and it all started rapidly sliding back down the hill to around 3 per week. 3 per week might sound ok until you consider this was almost all around ovulation, with remainder of the month being sex every 5-7 days. Blowjobs getting real rare; but not non-existent. Zero initiation from her. I had a real opportunity for a major reset and blew it.
As both the sex and her interest in spending time with me in general dropped again, I began to suspect an affair for no other reason than her apathy. For the last three years I have monitored her cell phone, computer, and location with a variety of GPS tools. I have found nothing indicating an affair. In fact, I would say this activity has been a disaster for my frame and my paranoia has exacerbated my beta mindset. My wife is much focused on my health, and jokingly (but not really…..) states this is so I can live a long time and earn lots of money. She has stated plans of retiring in 10 years to pursue philanthropic work while I continue to earn. I made it clear in early 2014 that not having sex at least every other day was killing me (stress). Summer 2014 I received a promotion to a level few obtain in our corporation (still killing the job); and started KETO diet and lifting again. Sex started improving again but nothing like before as there was still a lot of starfish and “duty” feel to it.
Finding the Red Pill
By spring 2015 I was down to less than 20% body fat from >30%. I had a skiing accident in May that destroyed my shoulder; and put the weight lifting on hiatus although I continued cardio. In August I had surgery to rebuild the shoulder. As has been documented here repeatedly, my post-surgery physically weakened state brought on a drought in the bedroom and non-stop shit test. I was on narcotic painkillers that were interfering with sleep badly. The wife took a business trip which in my altered state seemed suspicious. When she returned home late at night I was in bed crying (fucking cringe); and I accused her of cheating on me (she was not). I stopped taking the painkillers the next day and just endured it; but with better sleep. Over the next week; I unleashed the mother of all beta-victim pukes on her. This included finally confronting her over her emotional (at minimum) affair 16 years ago with co-worker. At first, she said he was just a friend and more of a “father figure” (hah….). I then confronted her with her diary and fact that no one wants to fuck their “father”. She just kept insisting “nothing happened”. The only two things I learned in these pukes was “she just stopped caring about the relationship in 2006 because I just kept hurting/disappointing her”; and although “she loved me, she was not in love with me” (ugh). We discussed the possibility of counseling for the first time ever; but decided against it (thank god).
The following week feeling like I would never be satisfied in my marriage and the stress would kill me, I started researching medication to reduce my libido. Surprisingly, there is nothing that is also not highly psychoactive. My research took me to this website http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2007/09/10/seeking-ways-to/ (aka dead bedrooms). Comments lead me to NMMNG. A NMMNG blog lead me to MRP. Reading NMMNG is like a biography of my relationships with women. In contrast, none of NMMNG applies to my relations in work or my family.
Following is a description of my current relationship with wife:
• Shit test and compliance were daily/hourly before taking pill; but have slowed down significantly since. I have implemented STFU and just ignoring many compliance test with a look of “yea…right”. I am working into A&A and amused mastery; but I am not quick witted so this needs some work.
• Up until taking red pill; I cannot remember the last time there was anything like a comfort test (because she has “checked out”). Think I passed the two that have occurred in last two months.
• She shows no interest in spending any time with me at all. I have to initiate any interaction; and often have to plead or badger to get time. Since taking pill I have stopped the pleading; and now just command the time. If rejected then I try IDGAF but it is an act…… We seem to enjoy each other’s company when together; but I am clearly the last priority in her life.
• Sex is 4-5 times a week outside of shark week. Here is the problem though, sex only occurs between the hours of 3 and 7 am in the morning and in our bed. This has been the case since the fall off in 2013. Sex at night (before going to bed) occurs less than a dozen times per year; and only during ovulation. Sex during the day or outside of our bed has not occurred in many years now. IMO, the wife has to be unconscious or semi-conscious for me to successfully initiate.
• Sex was about 25-50% starfish before taking pill; and is now down to less than 10%. When it is on; it is often quite good. I have always been dominant with a lot of throwing her around and caveman pounding. In the last year (before red pill); I started introducing a lot more dominance such as restraining and choking along with derogatory word play. Since red pill, I have went all in on this with tying her up, spanking her ass, calling her a slut, race play, etc. She absolutely loves this stuff with moaning, “fuck me harder”, and multiple orgasms largely independent of her cycle.
• On the other hand, she refuses to look me in the eye during sex. She refuses to kiss me during sex. Blowjobs are rare, only during ovulation after I eat her out, only if I jump up and shove my dick in her mouth, and never to completion. I have cum in her mouth once since we have been married.
• Implementing Athol Kay’s 10 second kiss during the day has been like pulling teeth….but slow progress is being made.
Shit I am owning:
• Diet and exercise. I am down to college-sophomore weight (14% body fat using “Navy” calculator); going to gym 4-6 times per week and really adding iron each week. On machines since surgery recovery, but planning on going back to free weights in February. It is worth noting that wife followed suit on my weight loss six months after I started, and is now down to pre-pregnancy weight (no time in gym though).
• I stopped smoking pot all time back in April 2015 primarily because it interfered with diet and was starting to impact my straight-cognitive abilities. Still hit it once in a while with my buddies; but zero when around wife or family.
• I cut porn from 1-2 per day to 1-2 per month in October. She was unhappy with my porn obsession; and knows I am off of it.
• I have bought completely new wardrobe and had clothes tailored to fit in October. Since I have always dressed like a slob; this was a major change that wife and everyone around me has noticed. I switched to contacts from glasses which I have worn since childhood. Removed some of the grey from my hair, and overall improvement to grooming. My overall appearance has changed so much that folks I do not see every day (including relatives); do not actually recognize me. I have been getting attention from random women like never before in my life.
• I have stopped all complaining or showing signs of any physical or mental weakness to wife.
• I have killed the covert contracts. I no longer do anything with an expectation of sex. Either I want to or should be doing something; or I just don’t do it.
• I am faking OI when rejected for sex or companionship about 90%. This was a drastic change to my previous behavior.
• I have been building my abundance mentality by interacting with women at any opportunity. I have also spent a lot of time on dating websites, and researching the scene. This has helped my frame because it obvious given the field and the competition; I could be into all kinds of pussy within days/weeks of divorce.
• I resumed control finances in November; and have made significant improvements to our already positive cash flow since. I have been fixing things around the house; and have taken on some big jobs that I would have previously contracted out. The finance coup brought on the only argument I have engaged in since taking the pill. However, last week she was complimenting me on how much more positive cash flow has been since I took over.
• I have been taking every available opportunity to engage socially with other folks in the presence of the wife. I have not been practicing any active dread in front of wife. However, I am getting plenty of (new) attention from the sport-moms, her friends, and sisters. Major IOIs. She has said nothing indicating she notices this…..but I think she is just maintaining frame. However, it is worth noting that sex after these types of interactions is always kicked up a notch.
• I have been re-engaging in old hobbies and with friends. Rejoined poker club and biking/paddling club. Basically, I have been working towards being the funny/cocky guy she was attracted to way back in the day. I was invited to a weekly trivia night at a local bar by some hot/female 20-something co-workers; and have been going every week for last six weeks. This appears to be inspiring some dread in the wife; and inspired the first comfort test in forever.
• I have consulted with two different divorce lawyers; and confirmed I would not be on the hook for either her family living with us or any alimony (our incomes are 60/40, but she has identical credentials and work experience/opportunities as I do).
Shit I am not owning:
• Shit test and compliance test. I still have a long way to go here. I feel like a deer in the headlights. Shit test have dropped big time since taking pill; but compliance test continues and I continue to fail. Half the time I just comply out of reflex; and the other half I don’t want to endure shit test for not complying. I need to move beyond STFU.
• Rollo says whomever needs the other the most is at risk for being used and taken advantage of….. I feel like shit admitting it, but at this point I always feel like I need/want her more than she does me. No doubt she is aware of this fact. It has not always been this way, but at this point my hamster runs laps on hers. Her frame is rock solid compared to mine at this point; and this is my main problem.
• During my brief angrier phase, I was actively withdrawing attention in particular around rejection associated with 10 second kiss. I have since backed off the withdrawal, not wanting to go Rambo, working on my IDGAF, and realizing I am not ready for anything resembling a main event.
What do I want…..?
I fucking want it all. I want a wife that is DTF whenever and wherever, and is enthusiastic about it more often than not. I want random blowjobs. I want a woman that obviously wants to be around me.
When do I want it…?
I am five years out from my youngest starting college; and I have no intent of missing any of my kids’ lives between now and then. After that and short of getting what I want/need; divorce is definitely an option with little downside and a lot of upside. Having already seen two divorce lawyers, I will continue to interview two more a year to both bone up and taint the pool. Having already fucked this up; I am trying to take a patient (not easy) and methodical approach to implementing MRP. Basically, I plan on not moving to dread level 8 for the first year and not making ultimatums for two years (24 months of MRP and years of marriage). After that….I will start looking outside of the marriage for my needs until I can leave for good.
What is my question…?
I know I need to continue increasing my SMV. I would say from an outsider perspective, we are probably equal now and I can surpass her. From her (that actually matters) perspective, it is obviously not high enough and I am quite truthfully unsure whether I can move it very much at this point. I know I need to improve my frame/shit/compliance/comfort test. Based on my reading of MRP; I am unsure of how I should handle the rigidity of our sex life. I am working on all day flirting and KINO; and I do initiate at night and during day on weekends to no avail. Should I be withdrawing attention on these hard No’s? I have considered stopping initiating in the morning; and seeing who breaks first (I wouldn’t bet on me……). Any advice on these questions or my general predicament is appreciated.
[EDIT] Formatting was a disaster. My apologies for the wall of text induced headaches.