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Why you shouldn't care if you wife doesn't apologize

December 11, 2014

This is a counter point of view to this post about how it is important to make your wife apologize. Disclosure: Making her apologize was one of my biggest hang-ups. Because of this, I've worked very hard on this topic. My post here is to challenge myself to clarify my own views.

Expecting apologies from your wife is beta.

Here are some reasons:

  • Expecting an apology signals to her that she has power to hurt you. Even if she apologizes, you just taught her the bad behavior gets to you. She will only do it more. It also signals that you are offended by her behavior. Taking offense is a way to say that your self-image can be affected by her actions. This is losing frame.

  • Expecting an apology gives her more power over you. If she withholds the apology, this is power to fuck with your head and emotions, it gives her more bargaining power. Why give her power to keep the fight going?

  • Expecting apologies is manipulative and unassertive. It signals that there is a secret contract between you and her: If she doesn't restitute your self image, you will be a dick to her, all wrapped in expectations of guilt and secret debts to each other. It presumes you are the judge of her actions. That even if she just made a mistake, she has to somehow ask for forgiveness from being a bad person and hurting you, that you hold this against her. This is resentment; resentment is beta. Also, it mixes up two problems: the real concrete problem at hand, and the problem of your fragile ego. The book "When I say no, I feel guilty" dedicates the first few chapters analyzing precisely how this mindset is manipulative. I defer to that book for more details on this point.

  • Expecting apologies is a waste of energy, it is increasing the dimensions of the conflict. Conflict only makes the ship run less efficiently. This new area of conflict now adds nothing to solving the problem at hand, only to your fragile ego that has a secret contract with this apology. She is your FO, and you are working together on getting the boat to where you want to go. All that matters is that behavior is corrected.

  • Captains don't ask for apologies from their crew. They only care about making things work in the ship. When someone fucks up, the Captain corrects what can be corrected, disciplines, and even, owns up himself because he delegated on someone that shouldn't have been entrusted with this important thing. But the captain never expects or cares for an apology, because this is giving his crew power over himself. A Captain's ego and authority cannot depend on what others say or don't say.

What is the point of an apology?

Apologies are for the Giver of the apology, not for the Receiver. The Giver fucked up, and they recognize that part of their responsibility is taking ownership of the consequences of their mistakes. So they apologize, owning up to their mistake, making amends, and proposing what they will do in the future so this doesn't repeat itself. Why? Because they want to get to the task at hand quickly, and admitting mistakes is the first step towards correcting them. That is all. Any more expectations is a secret contract, and manipulative.

Apologies are not for the Receiver. Even if the apology isn't accepted by the receiver, the giver already gained more self-respect and improved on his/her mistakes by just apologizing. The receiver gains nothing from the apology, unless the receiver has a fragile ego that depends on the apology to feel like he is better than the Giver.

How to apologize like a man?

You just say you made a mistake, say what you will do as reparation, and what you will do to not do it again. Period. You move on, work on concrete things, even if the receiver still feels resentment. You don't ask them to accept the apology. That is a hidden contract, a guilt debt. Resentment is their choice, accept it, plan how to deal with it, and stop worrying about it.

A man doesn't need other people's judgement to understand his mistakes. This process of owning up to our mistakes IS keeping frame and being a man. Having a fragile ego that won't accept mistakes is beta.

But also, don't apologize only because she wants to hear you apologize. That is her problem with her weak ego. Separate the problem of her ego from the problem at hand, and deal only with the problem at hand. True apologies should only come from your judgment of yourself, irrelevant of the judgment of others.

How to accept an apology like a man?

After I started doing all this, and stopped expecting apologies from my wife, she started to apologize. That was the most surprising thing of this process. So, now that you accept that you don't gain anything from her apologies, and you don't even expect them, how do you handle them gracefully when you start getting them?

This is what I've been doing lately. When she says she is sorry for what she did, I say "I appreciate you bringing this up. Now, what are you going to do about [concrete issue]?" First, I'm grateful to the apology, but show that the apology isn't the point. Concrete action on the important concrete issue is what matters. The problem wasn't that she should feel bad for fucking up, or she should apologize for hurting me. The only problem is that we must troubleshoot things to improve to get towards my goal. By doing this, I show that the apology isn't important to my ego, that there is no resentment, that my ego doesn't care. Also, I show this doesn't erase the mistakes and problems, that we must address them. If she doesn't change stuff towards that, then I will change stuff towards addressing the problem. Sometimes, this includes withdrawing responsibilities I had previously placed on her. Not because she is bad, not because I'm punishing her, but because I need this shit to get done, and this way isn't working.

Also, this lead to even more apologies from my wife, with less drama and fights. Why? Because she learned I don't need to 'prove' that she was wrong. I only care about getting the stuff that I need done, and as long as we figure out the best way towards that, we are good. Now it is easier for her to apologize because she doesn't have to fix up my hurt ego anymore. By focusing on getting to my goals, my goals became her goals.

What to do when she doesn't apologize?

Don't care about it, but do take action to solve the issue without her. Remember, the apology is only needed if your ego is hurt. The solution to a hurt ego is: work harder to having a strong frame such that she can't hurt your ego and stop needing apologies.

However, this doesn't mean ignore the problem. Assume that the problem will happen again because she didn't propose how to address it. And then, do everything in your power to make sure the problem doesn't happen again. This means withdrawing responsibility you had given her, and it might mean more work for you. Don't grow resentment only to hide you are a lazy fuck. Just do everything in your power to address the problem, and don't blame her for the problem. Blame the problem, and deal with the problem. This shows her she has no power over you, and that you are focused on the goal.

Sometimes these actions might upset her, because she prefered the old way where she had power over this stupid crap. Don't fall for the fight, stay focused on solving the problem. She fights, focus on concrete problem, and solving it. Own up to the new dynamics to cut through bullshit: "I understand you don't like this, but I need to fix [concrete problem], so this is what I will do about it." Sometimes I add: "Since you don't like it, what do you propose you want to do about [concrete problem]?" and often she actually owns up to her actions, or we have a concrete adult discussion about solving the problem. If she says what she thinks I should do, I just say again that I recognize she doesn't like what I'm doing, but I'll keep doing it because it is the way I can solve [concrete problem]. That if she doesn't like my solution, she has to propose what she can do to cooperate. I don't tell her how to change, I'm not asking her to change at all! But I'm open to her suggestions on how she can help me solve this problem. If your wife gets to this point, do negotiate. But don't negotiate to feel like you 'won', or to 'prove' she is wrong. Negotiate to solve the concrete problem; remember that problem is not your hurt ego.

Another way to put this is to never act as if she is the problem. Focus on the concrete problem yourself, and this is the most convincing way to make her become part of the solution to the problem. If she doesn't, you are demonstrating you don't need her! When she does offer to own up, then (intermittently) reward good behavior.

TL;DR Having resentment towards your wife because she isn't apologizing is losing frame and giving her power over you. Captains fix problems to get the ship where he needs it to go. Focus on problem solving, even if it means accepting you can't count on her for solving the problem. By doing this, it is more likely she will try to change to be part of the solution to the problem.

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[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link


You want her to follow your authority. Actions that show it speak more powerfully than words. Words only stroke your ego.

If she is stubborn and wrong and this affects you reaching your goals, withdraw responsibility from her, plan without her, And let her mistakes teach her she was wrong. The captain doesn't say I told you so.

[–]ecofriendlythrowawayMarried5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was an excellent read, /u/strategos_autokrator. Thanks for taking the time and effort into typing this up.

[–]nopbeentheredonethatMarried4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I really like your point of view on this subject. Fixing what's not working is a lot more important than an ego boost.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me the realization was that someone told me I needed an apology for my ego, but I needed to correct the problem to have a happy marriage. These are different things altogether. By separating them, I focused first on correcting the problems in the marriage, thinking I was postponing the ego problem for the future. The more I worked on stuff, the lesser and lesser the ego problem became, until I didn't need an apology anymore. I even felt sheepish for asking for one so insistently, when it wasn't really important at all.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

When she says she is sorry for what she did, I say "I appreciate you bringing this up. Now, what are you going to do about [concrete issue]?"

I'm glad you addressed this. Lately, TRP has been working really well for me, she is submitting to me, asking my opinion on everything that I am concerned with, and apologizes in an adorable, child-like way that really tells me she wants my approval.

Sometimes though, I don't want or need her to apologize.

[FR] For example, she had planned on cleaning our refrigerator over the weekend so when we went shopping on Wednesday (yesterday) it would be clean for all the new groceries. I didn't know that she had those intentions. Well, she ended up not getting around to it because she works really hard in other areas of the house (laundry, meals, kids, etc.). As I was putting the groceries away last night, she came to me and apologized for not cleaning the fridge. Because I didn't even know she was planning on it, I just told her, "You're fine, you're really fine. Its going to be ok, and we'll clean it out another time." I just didn't know how to handle such an apology.

All that to say, your comment that I quoted above helped me.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad it could help others. Writing this certainly helped me clarify my own ideas about this issues, which was one of my biggest weaknesses.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

apologizes in an adorable, child-like way that really tells me she wants my approval.

Check to be sure she is not reading about girl-game. It is guy crack and it really works for them although lots of girls default to this when they encounter a man the perceive as Alpha. Gratz.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Can you expand on how to account for girl-game?

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope, I go with it and turn into butter. I would give her the world when she acts like that and she knows it. She can suck me in like a fucking Greek Siren.

Girl game is her being sweet, submissive, and pleasant. The Natural is a type of (female) seducer who acts like that, plus they have this I am a helpless little girl please save me with your masculine power- a motif that is Kryptonite to most guys.

[–]alphabeta49MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn. Another layer to TRP.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It all makes sense now. Years ago when I was a young buck I was seduced by a couger doing the very same. She was older but she had mad girl game.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never heard of a Captain demanding an apology.

[–]newlifeasredpill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Solid post. Agree with you 100 percent

I dont need my four year old daughter to give me a half hearted "sorry!" And I dont need her mother to do either. I am still in charge either way.

Also..wives WILL apologize when they feel they have disappointed a man they badly need and respect.

If you really want her to apologize for things then lift weights, dress well, hold frame, and show her that other women want to be in her place as your first mate.

She WILL apologize if she is afraid of falling out of favor with THAT man.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Precisely. Communicate you will get what you want no matter what. She will apologize because you inspire her to want to be part of that!

[–]dizipleUnplugging1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I hope this post gets stickied or ends up in a 'best of mrp' thing. A lot of husbands finding mrp will probably be invested in 'apology demanding mode' as they rediscover their power.

Another thing I like about the post is its stoic nature.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Stoicism taught me many good tactics on how to keep frame. Before I found TRP, I found some helpful books on the stoicism that were crucial for me to learn how become like an oak. If this is of interest, I can write my own tactics that I learned from stoicism as applied to my marriage.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is the kind of stuff I wish I had read a long time ago. Feeling butt-hurt about shit and expecting apologies as reparations has been a stumbling block of mine that I'm only now realizing. The captain/first-mate dynamic makes so much sense. Men care about function and don't waste their time on emotional shit.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I wrote this post because this was my issue as well. I wrote as a way to admit my own ignorance and feeling butt-hurt to myself, in order to understand how to get over it. Writing this post was me just trying to organize my ideas to get my head straight. It fucking helped.

The transition while in marriage is fucking hard. I wish there was more written about that, and how hard it is, about the resentment stage, and how to overcome it, all that. But too many people here focus on bravado and can't even admit to themselves their mistakes.

All I'm saying is we can all contribute more here by just owning up to our mistakes and being honest about them. We learn more from that than from the success stories.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I wholeheartedly agree. I've adopted the fail fast and fail often mantra in my own life (from the world of start-ups in business). Examining and analyzing failure is the best way to learn in my opinion. And then, make changes! It's hard though for most of us to want to do this and be willing to shed light on what we might be doing wrong.

I'm not in a marriage, but the resentment is still there. And transitioning to a RP mindset is "fucking hard." I think the process of swallowing TRP is about going through the 'stages of grief' in some ways. There's all of it. Anger, despair, bargaining, all the way to acceptance.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And transitioning to a RP mindset is "fucking hard."

I recommend you do it now. Because it is fucking HARDER in a marriage. The plate is just too expensive, so it is much much much much more costly to next. Also, once you are married, you are locked in, and have agreed to certain terms. Renegotiating the terms is REALLY hard, because you undersold yourself already, and she bought you, so she sees no point in paying more now.

I do like the 'stages of grief' analogy. However, the order doesn't seem the same. I think bargaining happens a lot at the beginning (beta pukes trying to make the women change). Anger comes when you just have resentment that they did this to you, when in reality, you did this to yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, change is in the works. Pill fucking swallowed.

[–]phoenix_mdMarried Man -MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Wow strategos, I've had a lot of downvotes and dissenting replies in my time but this is my first counter-POST (is this the opposite of Giving Gold???). You have obviously spent a lot of time considering this matter. Thank you for the many good thoughts. Just as I take no offense at your thoughtful response I hope you can appreciate my reply as simply continuing our vigorous discussion.

You start off by saying that to expect an apology is beta. Yes and no. An apology should be anticipated, but a Captain does not ask or depend on apologies because he is Outcome Independent. The same can be said about sex.

An apology doesn't affect the Captain, but it does show you how she views you. It is a litmus test as to whether she sees you as a captain, or is just tolerating your unsuccessful attempts to rule over her.

This is why I believe it is healthy for a husband to demand an apology at least once in his Beta -> Alpha transition. It will of course cause a huge confrontation, but in the end, once she submits and willingly offers her apology, she is essentially crowning you the king.

The same is true for any leadership role. For example the only house rule we have for our children is that they must obey us. If they don't, then they are placed in time out until they can sincerely say with a smile "My job is to obey". Many many times we've had a child kicking, screaming, lashing out at everyone around them as they throw a monumental fit. But we wait them out. The moment they calm and control themselves enough to say our statement, they are like a new person. They truly turn from demon to angel. They are happy, content, and ready to obey any new order at the drop of a dime.

It would be much easier to allow them to just casually disobey from time to time. But every time we let our children disobey it takes roughly 5-10x more effort to have them obey again because our dominance is eroded. The same is true for any leader (eg. a boss, a coach, a president, etc). So every misstep must be dealt with, and over time there becomes less missteps. This is the essence of maintaining frame.

Anyone can say I'm wrong or off track, but I have already proven that I am right, at least for my marriage. In the past my wife NEVER apologized, yet since the time in my transition where I demanded an apology, held my ground, and she finally apologized, she has been like a new person. Just like my children, her attitude did a 180 and she nestled into her new submissive role. As I've posted before, I have had little to no fitness tests, she submits to everything I do and provides all the sex I ever wanted.

So in summary, show me a husband who's wife does not apologize to him (without him asking), and I'll show you a man who is not Captain of his home.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

is this the opposite of Giving Gold???

I think this is much better than Gold. Your post inspired me to think about my own views, organize them and contribute. I'm very grateful for it, your post had a lot of value to me.

We agree in the practical aspects of this. You got what you wanted, so your actions worked. This is indisputable. My post is only about TRP theory. All the things I write are about attacking my own mistakes expecting apologies. I do welcome more of your opposing comments, as it sharpens my own views. For me, this is just an exercise for me to kill my own need for apologies. With that out of the way, let's continue this discussion.

My perspective is that I will lead towards my goals. There are two ways to become that leader: to Rise Above so others will follow (RA), or to make others Submit Below you (SB). I think that these are not mutually exclusive techniques. However, I don't know what is the optimal balance between them with my wife. I welcome views on this subject, as it interest me very much.

Right now, I'm planting myself firmly on the purist camp of Rising Above. This means that I will lead independently of what my wife thinks or does. My goal is not to make her submit. This is a form of ONEitis, that I need her to submit to me so I can be the man I want to be. If she submits, then I can lead her, but making her submit isn't my goal. It is only one of the many ways to accomplish it. An alternative is separation, with all the costs that implies. I accept those costs, and account for them, and keep RA.

The reason why I think RA works better than SB is that pushing for submission gives her power. Since in our relationship she liked this power more than she liked me, this was counterproductive. RA gives her no power at all. Yet it pulls her into wanting to follow my lead. I think RA might take longer than SB, but ultimately, it is more robust and powerful.

I don't see the distinction you draw between "anticipating and demanding" apologies versus "needing and expecting" apologies. This smells like hamster. Before, I used to tell myself I was demanding apologies like a man. Now I admit that these were my victim pukes [See NMMNG].

I disagree with your statement that apologies are a good test that show she accepts your leadership. Apologies are a terrible way to demonstrate how she views you. Here are some arguments to support that apologies are useless tests:

  • Show me a ship where the the captain demands apologies, and I'll show you a ship that is inefficient. The problem isn't the sailors and officers, is the captain's leadership! The captain is responsible for the ship no matter what happens or who screws up. Blaming others for that is weak and a waste of time. Captains only care about getting shit done. He disciplines, and finds someone that can do the job. Test irrelevant.

  • People can apologize out of strategic convenience without real submission. Apologies can come out of fear, without any respect. Fake submission fuels resentment, resentment erodes respect. An apology can come only from a calculation that stroking my ego is a cheap way to keep me happy. Even children figure this out very early on. Test results faked.

  • If I accidentally bumped into an old lady in the bus, I apologize to her. Nobody in the bus will conclude that I'm submitting to her in any way. Test wrong.

  • Women love babbling words about feelings, who hurt whom. This will be the main motivator behind the apology. Women are also known for demanding apologies. When they do, we call them shit-tests. I realize now that when I did this same thing to her, I was also shit-testing her. Accepting this now is very hard for me because it shows how low I had fallen. And all throughout, I was signaling her I shit-test just like a woman, as if she was the man. Test sends wrong message.

  • I much rather have her do things that contribute to my goals, than have her say words that make me feel good about myself. Which is a better test of submission: an apology for not being a nice wife because she isn't giving me blow jobs, or giving me blow jobs? Once I saw it this way I realized that the apology was completely irrelevant to me. Test meaningless.

I used to focus on demanding apologies all the time. I now think this was just my hamster blaming her for my own lack of leadership. I have now imposed the following test on myself. It is a brutal test because it true, harsh and unforgiving. The test eats the hamster in one bite. I admit I still fail at it. I must work harder on this, but I'm happy to say that I'm failing it less and less. I will continue to impose this test on myself mercilessly to kill that hamster that makes me want these apologies.

Brutal Test of Strategos' Frame: After she apologizes, I check how I feel. If I feel better about myself, then I conclude I lost frame because my self-image depended on getting this apology. I wrote this down as a reminder to myself, so I don't hamster out of the inescapable conclusion of the test.

[–]sir_wankalot_here1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The simplest explanation of why an appology is BS. What is the motive behind the person appologizing ? It is to avoid punishment.

Remember when you where a kid and the teacher caught you doing something wrong. So you attempt an appology to try and play on the teacher's emotions. If you see that it is working you follow it up with some BS excuse.

In SE Asia empty meaningless appologies complete with crocodile tears are common. Usually the moment the person start with this crap, I tell them to shut the fuck up, I don't want to hear about it. I then tell them that it better not happen again or I will take corrective actions.

In the past I used to fall for these BS appologies. All that happens is they think you are stupid and weak.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Apologies are bullshit, and asking for apologies is a shit-test. One shits, the other tests the shit. Shit science.

The reason I didn't understand that was because my ego needed outside validation.

[–]sir_wankalot_here2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I am a more practicsl type guy as opposed to a theory type guy. SE Asians are experts on playing on people's egos. But then I realized an appology like that was happening every week and nothing was changing. So I run along the principal if something is not working, try something new. So somehow by accident I figured out if the moment they started to appologize I told them I didn't want to hear their stupid appology, and it better not happen again things changed for a longer period of time.

But then came the ultimate test. The guy did it again, I fired him on the spot. Tje rest of the workers then started to beg me to take the guy back, he has a family to feed and that sort of nonsense. I told them he was warned, he failed to correct himself and he is fired. I then told them to get back to work, and if another person brings up the subject I will fire them also. Everyone got really quiet then later I over heard them chattering among themselves don't piss off the boss.

So it wasn't until I read the other guys comments about appologies that I saw the ego thing. To be honest I didn't really have a theory, I just know this is what works. Now I can see that the guys where suckering me by playing my ego.

Probably it seems like I am being an asshole. I am only an asshole if people don't get shit done. If my guys have problems or a legitimate excuse, I do what ever I can to help them.

I like SE Asia, but it can be a harsh place. That is why I keep large dogs and I sleep with a shotgun close by. Again the shotgun and dogs are not because I am scared. The opposite holds true, I am not scared because I have a shotgun and large dogs 😃

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You had clear vision, and had clear consequences for those that got in the way. This is leadership. Who cares what they think. With this actions, you made your vision more clear to them, and the consequences of getting on the way as well. This is your goal as a leader. Your goal isn't to be a nice guy to them.

[–]phoenix_mdMarried Man -MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well written strategos (and I enjoy your attention to proper reddit formatting as well).

I'm don't think I've been clear. I endorse nearly all that you are saying. My hangup is your seemingly complete dismissal of apologies from your wife.

My original post was meant to express and try to explore the distinct phenomenon of wives refusal to apologize to their husband. Until that post I had thought it was just a weird oddity of women but I came to realize it is a direct reflection of their leadership in the marriage. If she consciously or unconsciously sees herself as the leader, then she will naturally be very resistant to apologizing (this is true of any leader). The situation flips once the husband becomes the Captain.

Practical application: If you're wondering whether your friend is a natural alpha husband or is suffering a miserable sex life because his wife dominates him at home, just ask him if he gets frustrated that his wife never apologizes to him. You'll know if he's Captain by his answer.

My post above describes one technique to firmly establish leadership in your home. It may not be for everyone, but it worked very well for me.

I completely agree that demanding apologizes once your leadership is well established is counter-productive. Your main post does a good job explaining why.

Again, thank you for the vigorous discussion. Bro hug

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

ask him if he gets frustrated that his wife never apologizes to him. You'll know if he's Captain by his answer.

This is a great way to put it! I will follow that if he answers he gets frustrated, the key is for HIM to change to become the captain, not to blame her for his frustrations.

[–]sir_wankalot_here1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Actions speak louder then words. Unfortunately for most people words speak louder then actions. An appology unless it is followed by some sort of action in my books is meaningless.

When someone fucks up, the Captain corrects what can be corrected, disciplines, and even, owns up HIMSELF because he delegated on or trusted someone that shouldn't have been entrusted with this important thing for himself.

I sometimes have a problem with this one. So someone is working for me, and they stole things. Obviously people should not steal, but what part did I play in this ? Did I have proper checks and balances in place to ensure theft would not take place ?

It is human nature (and dog nature also) that if people (and dogs) think they can get away with something they will do it. One of my guys is a good worker, but I know if he thinks he can get away with it he will steal from me. Now that I am more practical, I ensure that he only does things where there is a limited opportunity for theft, and I make a point of showing him I am taking a good inventory.

Most of my problems happened because I thought I was smarter then I really am. And because of my ego. There is a difference between being confident and over confident 😃 I learned that one the hard way many times 😃

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So someone is working for me, and they stole things. Obviously people should not steal, but what part did I play in this ?

You trusted someone you couldn't trust. You aren't perfect. Your checks and balances have limitations. Improve what can be improved. Listen to improvements others suggests, and if they contribute to your goal, incorporate them. Accept what cannot be changed. No system is perfect, sometimes you have to accept some amount of stealing. And fire the guys that aren't willing to work within your system.

Your solution to only assigning him to certain tasks is a great solution to this problem. You made sure he was able to work for you in a satisfactory manner given his limitations. This is leadership.

Captains would leave sailors stranded if they didn't follow the rules or mutinied. The cost to the captain is less hands on deck, and more work for everyone. The captain assumes responsibility for making a bad hiring decision, and then deals with the reality at hand the best he can.

[–]sir_wankalot_here0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No system is perfect, sometimes you have to accept some amount of stealing.

I am pragamatic now days. As a rule of thumb if they steal 10% of their salary, I view it as a perk of their job. I pretend they are not stealing from me, they pretend that they are honest 😃

In the 3rd world, food is mainly bought in traditional markets. So if you send someone to buy food, they will use preferred venders which gives them a kick back. The ony way to avoid that is if I buy myself. There is no way to avoid this.

So I have a couple people I know will not take a bigger kickback then 5-10%. Every once in a while they will get smart and try and take 10-20%. So usually I make some comment about how come when I went to the market the next day the price was 10% less. They then make up some story about how there was a shortage of pigs that day or some nonsense. I usually make a sarcastic comment about temporary price flutuations 😃

Kick backs are a given in the 3rd world, it is part of the culture 😃 So if someone is buying something from me for someone else, I usually give him 5-10% more which he keeps.

Captains would leave sailors stranded if they didn't follow the rules or mutinied. The cost to the captain is less hands on deck, and more work for everyone.

The biggest expense is training new people, even for menial jobs it takes atleast a month till they fit in the scheme of things.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Great job owning up to the cost/benefits/risk and accounting for them. This is leadership.

[–]sir_wankalot_here0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is a learning process, and I just have been around a lot longer to learn.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being a leader is that continuous learning process.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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