Cassie Jaye's Statement About the Smear Campaign By David Futrelle

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If you don't mind sharing, I would like to know more about what you got out of futrelle's writings. Pick a typical article of his that you might have liked a few months ago and post a link.

Roughly speaking, what did you like about it? What was he like at his best?

I am guessing that you felt like the MRM was attacking feminism, or women, with manufactured/cherry-picked statistics and carefully constructed, but ultimately far-fetched, arguments.

Not having time to do the research to debunk the writings of the MRM yourself, you looked to David to do that and summarize the results.

That's how most people function. We subscribe to different experts, but we rely on them to do most of the legwork for us.

I am not asking to pick a fight with you. I genuinely want to understand why feminists feel so threatened by the MRM that they would accept the analyses of Furtelle for some time before having him turn on someone you respected.

I know the MRM has its crazies, and its unfair venom directed toward women, but it also has some brilliant, fair minded people and obviously I have joined it because of my respect for their work.

If you'd rather not post publically, please PM me.

[–]Babsnj 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think I probably represent the typical feminist who believes that women should be empowered. I do not hate men. I thought feminism was for gender equality but I'm starting to reexamine that. As far as David Futrelle, I took the word of my fellow feminists who I considered more educated in gender politics. I heard in the media that the MRM are a hate group. To be blunt, I was just accepting what I heard. And yes, I'm starting to realize how dumb this all sounds. I am very interested in seeing this documentary. When this whole thing erupted with David Futrelle, I was shocked. And at first I forgot Cassie Jaye was also the director of Daddy I Do, which I saw at a screening sponsored by Planned Parenthood a few years back. She was also there for a Q&A. She came across very genuine and intelligent, and I had a lot of respect for her. So when David started writing these articles about her (a few of my friends told me about them), I started googling her name and saw all the drama surrounding the kickstarter campaign. What David is doing is disgusting. And I am telling my friends this too. However, many of them don't want to hear it.

[–]SilencingNarrative 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I would also have called myself feminist 13 or so years ago before I saw a male relative of mine falsely accused of domestic violence and viciously separated from his daughter. She will be turning 18 soon and he can't wait to re-establish contact with her. His wife slapped herself in the face long enough to cause swelling and called the police then accused him of having attacked her. She was holding the bag of ice on the wrong side of her face (not the side with the swelling), which was in the police report, but they arrested him anyway, absent any witnesses who could confirm or deny her story.

I helped him draft letters to the judge and got to see first hand how strong the demonization of men is in culture and law.

The more I read about how the family court operates, the more I realized that men had issues that feminist activists and other civil rights oriented movements (like the ACLU) should have been addressing but instead were contributing to by demonizing men.

Cassie's documentary is going up against a lot of powerful forces who are heavily invested in the idea that men don't have issues that need serious action and, if anything, men are causing most of the issues society faces and need to be further marginalized to allieviate that.

I think there is a serious possibility that the kickstarter administrators are going to be approached to withhold the money her campaign raised, on the logic that the MRM is a hate group and that providing them a platform would violate the terms and conditions for kickstarter.

We will see what happens. I wish her the best of luck but she is far from out of the woods.

[–]tallwheel[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]_desa 27 points28 points29 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You appear to be right:

Ms.Jaye from the comments on Kickstarter:

"I thought carefully before using the word 'misogynistic' in my statement. The definition of misogynistic is "one who hates or mistrusts women", and the mistrust part is the part I'm emphasizing. Futrelle's writings about me suggest that he does not trust that I, as a women, can see MRAs for what they truly are. He's suggesting that I do not have the intelligence or capability to discern between facts and falsehoods. Based on his articles about me, it seems that his views are misogynistic and feminists should recognize that."

The "misogyny" word is thrown around with ridiculous abandon. But Futrelle is one man who deserves the label. He is a woman-hater who thinks females are incompetent imbeciles in need of rescuing by white knights. I have it on good authority that Futrelle is currently riding a white steed -- sword in one hand, KFC bucket in the other -- to rescue m'lady Cassie from her own supposed stupidity.

I will say this: it will be a huge let down if Cassie decides to go the "both sides are equally right and equally wrong" route. Feminists have institutional power, MRA's do not. Feminists rely on feelz, MRA's rely on facts. The truth is not always in the middle of two extremes.

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Futrelle’s entire argument for his accusation about her award boils down to “people are so stupid that when presented with things of different but all distinguishable sizes the bigger thing makes the smaller things invisible.” To bolster his argument, he cited the first site he found that said anything derogatory about the competition, a site without any credentials which would make its statement authoritative, and most of his audience swallowed the claim without question. The accusation that the Cannes Independent festival is somehow shady hasn't even been genuinely put forth - it's just a hairball hacked up by a blogger who can't even be troubled to read past the first thing he finds that looks vaguely like ammo if not examined too closely - much less proved enough to merit a "that doesn't mean" statement in support of it.

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[+]chocoboat -12 points-11 points-10 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Also... Futrelle has a good point. Cassie Jaye won an award at the Cannes Independent Film Festival. This event, CIFF, is completely unrelated to the actual famous and prestigious awards given out at the official Cannes Film Festival, other than the fact that they both take places in the city of Cannes.

The CIFF is a scammy knockoff of the real thing, existing only for the purpose of tricking people into thinking someone won an award at the real Cannes Film Festival.

She uses this graphic in a movie trailer to promote herself. The intent seems pretty clear to me that it is an attempt to trick people.

While it's true that she did win a real award at some event in Cannes (which appears to no longer exist), and the text on her website is accurate (she never forgets to use the word independent), it's still misleading. Futrelle accurately points out that people reporting on Jaye's film fell for the trick and wrote that she was a winner at the real Cannes Film Festival.

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[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, because it's true.

Prove it! Don't just throw false accusations around.

Many people in this sub will

I don't care what "many people" do. I asked you if you think I was doing that and your response was "yes". But you have no evidence for that. Presumably you're just as shoddy and dishonest when it comes to your conclusions about "many people" so your credibility is converging on zero.

But because this is a decent person who has shown sympathy for men's issues, people will overlook and even defend this bit of nonsense.

I won't entertain any more of your wild accusations from your big buddy Futrelle without some actual evidence.

That's not what circular reasoning is.

It absolutely is circular reasoning. I demonstrated why your "proof" for your case was actually contradicting your case and you responded with a claim that presumed the truth of your case. I.e. you presumed the conclusion in the reasoning to support it.

[–]chocoboat -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Prove it! Don't just throw false accusations around.

I explained my reasoning in the very next sentence. I don't know what evidence you're expecting me to present... some kind of records of people's personal thoughts?

I asked you if you think I was doing that and your response was "yes". But you have no evidence for that.

You're right, I can't supply hard evidence to conclusively prove it in a court of law. Is that what you wanted to hear?

But that doesn't mean I can't spot identity politics when I see it. People in this subreddit (understandably) enjoy finding flaws in feminist bullshit and exposing their hypocrisy, and there are some who nitpick and criticize even the smallest things.

But suddenly, someone's fooling people into believing she won an award at the real Cannes Film Festival and this is somehow beyond criticism? Gee, I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that she has made some pro-MRA comments?

This is the same group of MRAs who bashed the hell out of a very fair and pro-quality speech by Emma Watson, proclaiming her to be an ignorant female supremacist (among other things), just because the event she spoke at has a very stupid name (HeForShe). She didn't say anything derogatory towards men and even talked about how men's issues matter, but she got bashed for it.

But then here's Cassie Jaye with an obvious attempt to trick people... and there's not a negative word to be said. Not only that, people are defending it. And the one and only reason for this is "she's on our side".

your big buddy Futrelle

LOL, right. I disagree with you, so I must be part of the enemy faction. That right there is identity politics in a nutshell. Why in the hell would you think I'm a friend of Futrelle?

You love to employ the same identity politics as SJWs and feminists. "If you don't have the same opinion as me, you're my enemy." "If you don't think the wage gap is real, you hate women." "If you think it's possible for men to face sexism and discrimination, you're a racist male supremacist."

How are you going to call it a wild accusation when I say you're engaging in identity politics bullshit, and then accuse me of being an ally of Manboobz because I don't have the same opinions as you?

It absolutely is circular reasoning.

Read the link please.

Circular reasoning is not what you call it when I point out the examples of "whoever I like is always right about everything, whoever disagrees with me on anything is an terrible person" identity politics that people here are engaging in.

[–]AloysiusC 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I explained my reasoning in the very next sentence.

You ascribed an assertion to me even though I never said anything of the kind. It's on you to find examples of me saying what you claimed I'm saying. If I did, it's easy enough for you to find. If I didn't then you need to take back your accusation and apologize.

You're right, I can't supply hard evidence to conclusively prove it in a court of law. Is that what you wanted to hear?

No. Just find a comment I made that justifies your accusation.

someone's fooling people into believing she won an award at the real Cannes Film Festival and this is somehow beyond criticism?

The problem I have with you isn't that you're saying something forbidden or anything. The problem I have is that what you're saying is FALSE. And your "evidence" for your claim, as I said, points toward it being false. And instead of retracting your claim or even bloody responding to it, you just throw accusations at me.

This is the same group of MRAs who bashed the hell out of a very fair and pro-quality speech by Emma Watson,

You mean the "she for he"? Lol. I'm sure that's totally fair and pro-equality to feminists.

But then here's Cassie Jaye with an obvious attempt to trick people

Just repeating your unproven accusation doesn't make it any less false. In fact it's libel.

I disagree with you, so I must be part of the enemy faction.

No, because your behavior matches theirs and just so happens to agree with their view. What a coincidence.

That right there is identity politics in a nutshell.

You are also just as hypocritical as they are. Need I remind you that it is YOU who is ascribing opinions and claiming to "KNOW" what people think, based entirely on identity.

You love to employ the same identity politics as SJWs and feminists.

Not in the least but I'm not surprised that the difference escapes your one-dimensional observational capacity. Your opinion is not why I think you're one of of them. We have disagreed many times before so that alone proves you wrong (yet again). I liken you to them because your behavior matches theirs.

Circular reasoning is not what you call it when I point out the examples of "whoever I like is always right about everything, whoever disagrees with me on anything is an terrible person" identity politics that people here are engaging in.

Your first "mistake" here is that you didn't point out such examples at all. And the other is that you're trying to substitute something else for what I was talking about. I showed you quite clearly how your reasoning contained the conclusion. Now, the fact that the reasoning itself is a mess and full of incoherent babble, may cover up the circularity of it. But all one has to do is take a close look and there it is (emphasis mine):

you'd be laughing and mocking the attempt to trick people

There you go. You're presuming the conclusion (that she's tricking people) to be true. Therefore the premise contains the conclusion. Hence it's circular.

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Title	Cassie Jaye's Statement About the Smear Campaign By David Futrelle
Author	tallwheel
Upvotes	116
Comments	88
Date	November 4, 2015 1:39 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3rfnpt/cassie_jayes_statement_about_the_smear_campaign/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/cassie-jayes-statement-about-the-smear-campaign-by.967992 https://theredarchive.com/post/967992