I shared about men's rights concerns with a feminist and she said the problems men face are consequences of male patriarchy and men's fault anyway.

wdhohl · 2020-01-05T02:32:58+00:00

Ask to focus on solutions rather than fault.

QueenNayru · 2020-01-05T03:09:44+00:00

"So what is feminism stance on current family court laws/ what is feminism doing to fight for equality in family court laws?" <- legit responce

"Oh nothing? So feminism isn't actually doing anything to fight patriarchy eh?" <- less often used, but highly rewarding follow up lol

GingerRazz · 2020-01-05T04:04:13+00:00

Tell them they are victim blaming. Blaming men for being the victims because men are victimizers is simple victim blaming. It's not right.

If you ever want to convince someone they are in the wrong, you need to argue within their ideological framework. They understand victim blaming and overuse the term. This is a blatant exammple of something they will use on the most flimsy way, so give it to them where it fits, and see if they can work through it.

filosophicalaardvark · 2020-01-05T02:12:50+00:00

I don't argue with idiots, so I wouldn't say anything at all

Dunkolunko · 2020-01-05T04:25:23+00:00

Just tell her that "the patriarchy" had men as getting default custody, and feminists got it changed to the women, so her theory about sexist caregiver assumptions is full of shit.

Also if the patriarchy is designed to give power to and benefit men, wouldn't they just give men unilateral choice over what happened? Why would alimony and child support exist? Wouldn't the man just get to choose?

ShawshankRetention · 2020-01-05T05:33:02+00:00

"Patriarchy is just a minsandrist conspiracy theory, do you also believe that jews run the world like antisemites ?"

1LegendaryWombat · 2020-01-05T05:36:11+00:00

My response would be "How so?" As by definition, a patriarchy would favor men over women, always, right? But society has never really done that, although you can make a solid case for china and a few other countries.

And if it did favor men, then why would they ignore men's problems as fellow men?

Generally what is described as a patriarchy is actually an oligarchy, which aside from communist countries(and sometimes even then) would cover nigh every society that has ever been.

I'd also point out the many, many times, women just holler, and society changes. In the UK, all men wanted to vote, they campaigned for it, protested, the army was used to suppress it, people died, but eventually they succeeded. Women wanted it? They got it. Remarkably little effort involved.

Even in the Us, women campaigned for the vote, most of the resistance they got was from other women, who didn't want to be lumped into the draft and whatnot. And these weren't peaceful campaigners, they committed actual arson(not just bra burning, actual building burning), massive amounts of vandalism and more. And those women didn't actually achieve anything, it was a small group working with politicians who essentially said 'give us the vote, we'll vote for you' who got that shit done.

When it comes to crime, there is no excuse for the disparity. Us stats in particular, the gender gap is a 60% increase in being charged and convicted, where the race divide between white and black is only 19-20%, and practically disappears when you compare white and black women. This is consistent in almost every country.

And this 'nurturer' argument is bullshit. Mothers are 70% of the killer of their own children(particularly boys) and are the majority of perpetrators of raping men and boys outside of prison, but they avoid the same punishments, sometimes getting no punishments at all in first world countries like Canada. Women are generally speaking more nurturing to their children, there is something of a bond that establishes during pregnancy, although not all women feel it, thats for sure. But there are reasons why children without one parent do worse in almost every area of life. both role models and what they bring to the table are important. We KNOW this, we have numbers, stats, figures out the wazoo, but nobody does shit about it.

As to the why, thats very easily found to, people have less empathy for men overall. Part of this stems back to when we were cavemen and everything killed us. In order for the tribe to survive, you needed to protect the women. A tribe with five women and ten men would generally survive and expand worse and slower than a tribe with ten women and five men, since one man can father many children. In the modern era, this doesn't make any sense, as women ask to be treated equally, but do not reciprocate. There have been more than a few studies that show women can be just as, if not more, psychopathic than men, depending on if they get rewarded or if there are no consequences. Theres even a study recently that people who identify as feminists are much more likely to sacrifice men, when thats already a default

But when all is said and done, if thats what they truly believe, odds are you won't persuade them otherwise. They go to the 'it is known, kahleesi' school of justification. They actually know nothing, and you can dismantle everything they throw at you with all the facts in the world, it will just make them angry, thanks to cognitive dissonance. The conflict in their own minds making them just hate you rather than considering anything you have presented.

problem_redditor · 2020-01-05T08:21:45+00:00

For example when I mentioned men don't get equal custody rights frequently, she said the patriarchy set up the courts to favor women as nurturers so it's men's fault to begin with. What would you say to this sort of rebuttal?

I would tell her that she's full of shit.

Under the old system it actually used to be that paternal custody of children after divorce was the default presumption because only the husband would be held responsible for the support of the child.

But during the late nineteenth century early feminists like Caroline Norton (a British woman who lost custody of her children after she left her husband) lobbied to have this changed and got the Tender Years Doctrine to happen, and it was presumed that the mother should have custody of the child after divorce. You know what didn't change? The husband was still held financially responsible for the child, even when he lost custody.

And although it was eventually replaced with the "best interests of the child" standard, the remnants of these laws are still very influential today. The fact that judges, and society at large, assume that mothers should get custody is largely because of this. Some lawyers have even argued that the tender years doctrine never really went away, but is still enforced (in practice), even if the laws might have changed.

And these circumstances did not come about because of “men” or “the patriarchy", they came about because of early feminists who lobbied for blatantly sexist laws which disproportionately benefited women. They asked for all the rights of men (child custody) while holding men to the obligations that traditionally went hand-in-hand with those rights (responsibility for the child's support), and they got it.

loofah_ · 2020-01-05T03:13:51+00:00

Since women were home raising the men who caused these problems we are facing today. Because you know the patriarchy and all that keeping them out of the military, workforce and voting booths all those years. They cant exactly wash their hands of the result of their parenting.

A few generations after Family Court start automatically giving sole custody to fathers they can blame us for that too. Until then tell her to have a coke and a smile and enjoy reaping what her gender has sown.

mikesteane · 2020-01-05T08:27:58+00:00

I'd give her a cat.

xNOM · 2020-01-05T13:52:06+00:00

Stop talking to feminists. They are cult members. The Jehovah's witnesses have a more cogent picture of the world than they do.

iainmf · 2020-01-05T09:19:57+00:00

This is actually really good because the feminist is admitting there is a problem that needs addressing.

You should ask them about what their solutions to it should be. And be sure to ask about government and institutional solutions to this problem.

NerdGuyLol · 2020-01-05T11:47:48+00:00

Syrians suffer to the hands of other Syrians on the ongoing civil war. Does that mean we shouldn't help Syria?

Jackson2615 · 2020-01-05T04:43:05+00:00

I'd say … " can you give me an answer that you actually thought of yourself" ...………..

Ask her for the proof/ evidence to support her claims.

Oncefa2 · 2020-01-05T16:06:02+00:00

For example when I mentioned men don't get equal custody rights frequently, she said the patriarchy set up the courts to favor women as nurturers so it's men's fault to begin with.

This isn't even remotely true. One of the first campaigns of the women's movement was child custody reform known as the tender years doctrine, which basically gave women custody and made men pay for it. This happened before temperance and before suffrage. These laws have changed over the years, but many people argue that the law is still de facto in favor of the tender years doctrine. And modern day feminist lobbying groups defend our current child custody laws.

thrway_1000 · 2020-01-05T18:02:10+00:00

Patriarchy is just a conspiracy theory - like the Illuminati.

coolysean · 2020-01-05T20:16:21+00:00

How about presenting them with the facts that in some states a mother can put her kid up for adoption without being a resident of that state without any consent from the BIOLOGICAL FATHER. Up until a little while ago this was absolutely LEGAL in Utah. Here is another example of how men and their rights as the biological father are non existent in certain states. Hell the adoption agency in the second source have a book and information on dealing with birth fathers that "Throw a wrench in the Adoption" Makes me sick to think about this.

ausgamer529 · 2020-01-06T02:24:53+00:00

How is being genitally mutilated at birth a man's fault?

Equality4all123 · 2020-01-06T04:28:44+00:00

I would respond "yes, how do you solve the problem?"

EvilLothar · 2020-01-06T16:13:12+00:00

"But I thought that patriarchy is set up by men to benefit men?"

2020-01-08T05:22:49+00:00

Feminists try to deny the fact they are anti-male by saying they are anti patriarchy.

You see, the fact that patriarchy is named after males is just as much of a coincidence as their movement for “equality for everyone” is named after women. When they talk about smashing the patriarchy, they aren’t talking about smashing men. They are talking about smashing an incredibly complex web of social cause and effect that victimises men too.

So if someone says to you something like “men cause their own problems” or “men are responsible for X” there are two explanations. Either they are not a feminist because they don’t understand the most central and basic core ideology of feminism. Or feminism is about hating and blaming men with continual vague academic rationals as camouflage.

I’ll let you decide which is the case.

Oncefa2 · 2020-01-05T03:47:00+00:00

Look the problem is that it’s mostly male judges, making decisions that go against male interests. Feminists have a hard time wrapping their head about the concept of males not being a monolith, and if they do, they seem to enjoy the fact that their “oppressors” are also hurting others within that same class.

The second point is that there are piles of feminist literature precisely outlining the effect of gender expectations, giving a fitting explanation of everything you just described and more. Like the gender expectation of being nurturing; it’s the same thing that gives the women custody in court, prompts endless questions about a female professional‘s kids and makes women a less likely to be hired when the employer knows they have a child-wish. Whether it is true is another issue, but you‘re not suprising her with “new knowledge” in this case.

As for rebuttal, the question of fault is rather pointless. And for “men don’t get equal custody rights frequently” why do you think it’s happening? Because to me it seems very likely that there are a bunch of judges believing in traditional family roles who let their bias influence their rulings. That doesn’t really rebuts her argument.

iainmf · 2020-01-05T09:46:51+00:00

Don't craft some fake rebuttal. Realize that you're wrong and start seeing reality for what it is.