I got it done for medical reasons. Life is so much better now, for reasons I won't subject you to. There was some loss of sensation, nothing very bad, but I do last longer now which is bonus!
I tend to agree with the research done by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here are the benefits that they list:
A markedly lower risk of acquiring HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
A significantly lower risk of acquiring a number of other sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including genital herpes (HSV), human papilloma virus (HPV), and syphilis.
A slightly lower risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs). A circumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 1,000 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life; an uncircumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 100 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life.
A lower risk of getting cancer of the penis. However, this type of cancer is very rare in all males.
Prevention of foreskin infections.
Prevention of phimosis, a condition in uncircumcised males that makes foreskin retraction impossible.
That's an interesting read, thank you for posting. I feel the main takeaway from it was that because the AAP gets most of their research from studies done in Africa, it cannot translate directly to western countries. It also makes the claim that the AAP has a cultural bias. I agree with both of those assertions.
I believe that the source you posted also has a cultural bias. At the end of the day, it feels like everyone just wants to justify what their (or their partner's) penis looks like already haha.
I feel that while you cannot directly translate studies done in Africa to western societies, the correlation between circumcised penises and lower STD rates is still powerful enough for me to believe that a circumcised penis is less likely contract some STDs in unsanitary conditions. I obviously agree that education and condom use is the best way to prevent STDs, but I still view this correlation as a benefit of circumcised penises.
You and several others have mentioned that European countries have lower STD rates than the US. I believe this is a case where correlation does not mean causation. There are many differences between public health, public education, and influence of religion between the US and other countries, and all of these contribute to the difference. I don't believe you can definitively say that circumcision has anything to do with this difference.
You noticed that I use language like "I believe". This is because I recognize that I have a bias and I do not want to definitively say that my beliefs are facts. I do not think you can say that "circumcision is wrong" as a fact either. I have only ever known my own circumcised penis, and have not seen any harmful effects from it. Given all the facts you've presented, I am still happy that my parents decided to have me circumcised at a time when I would not remember the procedure.
What do you believe is the World Health Organization's incentive for taking the stance that circumcision lowers heterosexually contracted HIV rates by 60%? I personally believe they feel like there is enough evidence to suggest that it is one of multiple means to lower HIV rates and not some scheme to profit off of people in Africa. I'm sure if you promote non-circumcision the millions who will die will take solace in knowing billions have been okay though. That's just common sense /s
Circumcision requires the use of anesthesia. Here is the AAP's recommendation for reducing the pain suffered by the infants:
"Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with newborn circumcision; thus, adequate analgesia should be provided whenever newborn circumcision is performed.
Nonpharmacologic techniques (eg, positioning, sucrose pacifiers) alone are insufficient to prevent procedural and postprocedural pain and are not recommended as the sole method of analgesia. They should be used only as analgesic adjuncts to improve infant comfort during circumcision.
If used, topical creams may cause a higher incidence of skin irritation in low birth weight infants, compared with infants of normal weight; penile nerve block techniques should therefore be chosen for this group of newborns."
Personally, I'm happy that my parents decided to circumcise me when I was a baby. The procedure sounds painful when done in adulthood so it's unlikely I would have gotten it done if they had chosen to let me decide. But now I have a penis that I love, a slightly reduced risk of STDs, and no memory of a painful recovery. In my mind, it was the best case scenario.
I've been both cut and uncut as an adult. Would be nice if they gave you a choice, but you're not a human rights violation. Not much difference, for me at least, except that it got rid of a problem I had.
While I agree it should be a man's right to make the choice, I think this topic goes a bit off the rails into the realm of 'sexual abuse' and 'mutilation.' I personally think that's extremely hyperbolic.
As for the decreased sensitivity, this is just one of those historical 'facts' that gets thrown around to fit a narrative, there are innumerable peer reviewed studies that have been conducted, and found no such evidence. Here is just one, but a simple google search will bring up numerous.
Male circumcision does not appear to adversely affect penile sexual function/sensitivity or sexual satisfaction
I see the discussions below regarding the AAP below, and attempts to discredit them as a legitimate scientific organization, and twisting their articles to make it seem as though they have an agenda. This is the same dangerous thought process that creates climate change deniers and antivaccers. While I agree that it should be a mans right to choose, I think it is in everyone's best interest to protest in a more logical manner than the aforementioned.
I edited my comment to reflect my views on it, if you hadn't read that yet. First of all, banned is pretty strong, especially in a forum that is meant to promote choice, and equal rights. There are cultural and religious reasons people do so, and they should have that right. Additionally, in regards to a bris and a rabi using his teeth. This is a very very small sect of Hasidic jews that still practice this, if that is your issue... you should take it up with them (approximately 1.7% of the US, most of which do not circumcise this way). I don't have an issue with it if it is done in a sterile, clinical environment.. and the man is old enough to make that decision.
I'll refer to the core of my argument - from the beginning, I have had the stance that nothing should be done to a person that cannot decide for themselves. So if we're talking about all procedures, sure... If you're an adult and want to saw your legs off, go for it.. Although I would question your sanity and decision making skills.
I don't have an issue with it if it is done in a sterile, clinical environment.. and the man is old enough to make that decision. Beyond that, what business is it of ours to tell other people what their penis should look like?
I am against circumcision of a child - this has been my point the whole time, I am against banning circumcision as a medical procedure as a whole, however.
I meant in the sense of the overall long term impact, not the procedure itself. I know it's an unpopular opinion on this sub to not have an entirely hyperbolic stance on circumcision, so I was prepared for the downvote train (see below where the conversation turns to tearing limbs off of infants).
It's not - here are some quick searches, I'm sure they'll be outright ignored or considered not valid, but here we go. And although anecdotal, I should mention I'm a circumcised adult, and I noticed absolutely 0, zip, not even a little bit of reduced sensitivity
Tactile thresholds at the foreskin (intact men) were significantly lower (more sensitive) than all [other] genital testing sites” including the sites in circumcised men (emphasis added).
Morris and Krieger reported that the “higher-quality” studies revealed no significant differences in sexual function (e.g., sexual sensation, erectile function, premature ejaculation, ejaculatory latency, and sexual pleasure) as a function of circumcision status. In contrast, 10 of the 13 studies deemed “lower-quality” by the rating scale employed showed sexual functioning impairment based on circumcision status in one or more of the same domains. Morris and Krieger do not report the results of this review collapsed across study quality. The conclusion they draw ... does not necessarily line up with the information presented in their review, which is mixed. However, it is important to note that their article is a review of the literature and not a meta-analysis, thus, no statistical analyses of the data have been performed; instead, the article presents the authors’ interpretation of trends.
I should mention I'm a circumcised adult
Are you a circumcised adult, or were you circumcised as an adult? That's a pretty huge difference.
As an adult - and fair enough, like I said it was a quick search - the information is there if you want to find it. Honestly, you'll find it for both sides, and it will always end in a stalemate, which is why this discussion keeps coming up over and over again. My contention is mostly how it is discussed, as in previous statements - no one even considers alternative viewpoints (especially on this thread). There can be no grey area, it is either severe sexual abuse and mutilation, or you're written off as brainwashed by society. It's a bit obnoxious, there are some quality posts on this sub, but this is the one topic that gets out of hand
Nobody is trying to change minds? This entire thread is talking in circles, everyone agrees routine circumcision is inappropriate. Yet people argue that I shouldn't be able to make that decision for myself as an adult? Absurd
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Tmomp 35 points36 points37 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]HeForeverBleeds 32 points33 points34 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]ayumuuu 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]HeForeverBleeds 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]plerpy_ 7 points8 points9 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Muesli_nom 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]plerpy_ -4 points-3 points-2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]HotDealsInTexas 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Muesli_nom 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 5 points6 points7 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]plerpy_ 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points (71 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoyalBucks 1 point2 points3 points (70 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoyalBucks 7 points8 points9 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Atheist101 6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]johnnie-fuckwit points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I got it done for medical reasons. Life is so much better now, for reasons I won't subject you to. There was some loss of sensation, nothing very bad, but I do last longer now which is bonus!
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Rubychan11 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WigglingCaboose 5 points6 points7 points (62 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (61 children) | Copy Link
I'm also glad that I got circumcised. I didn't choose it, but I'm happy my parents did. I believe that the benefits outweigh the risks.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points (57 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (55 children) | Copy Link
I tend to agree with the research done by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Here are the benefits that they list:
A markedly lower risk of acquiring HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
A significantly lower risk of acquiring a number of other sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including genital herpes (HSV), human papilloma virus (HPV), and syphilis.
A slightly lower risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs). A circumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 1,000 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life; an uncircumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 100 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life.
A lower risk of getting cancer of the penis. However, this type of cancer is very rare in all males.
Prevention of foreskin infections.
Prevention of phimosis, a condition in uncircumcised males that makes foreskin retraction impossible.
Easier genital hygiene.
Source: https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/newborn-male-circumcision.aspx
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WigglingCaboose 11 points12 points13 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Dembara 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Erudite_Delirium 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
That's an interesting read, thank you for posting. I feel the main takeaway from it was that because the AAP gets most of their research from studies done in Africa, it cannot translate directly to western countries. It also makes the claim that the AAP has a cultural bias. I agree with both of those assertions.
I believe that the source you posted also has a cultural bias. At the end of the day, it feels like everyone just wants to justify what their (or their partner's) penis looks like already haha.
I feel that while you cannot directly translate studies done in Africa to western societies, the correlation between circumcised penises and lower STD rates is still powerful enough for me to believe that a circumcised penis is less likely contract some STDs in unsanitary conditions. I obviously agree that education and condom use is the best way to prevent STDs, but I still view this correlation as a benefit of circumcised penises.
You and several others have mentioned that European countries have lower STD rates than the US. I believe this is a case where correlation does not mean causation. There are many differences between public health, public education, and influence of religion between the US and other countries, and all of these contribute to the difference. I don't believe you can definitively say that circumcision has anything to do with this difference.
You noticed that I use language like "I believe". This is because I recognize that I have a bias and I do not want to definitively say that my beliefs are facts. I do not think you can say that "circumcision is wrong" as a fact either. I have only ever known my own circumcised penis, and have not seen any harmful effects from it. Given all the facts you've presented, I am still happy that my parents decided to have me circumcised at a time when I would not remember the procedure.
[–]Dembara 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 13 points14 points15 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]rg57 6 points7 points8 points (23 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (22 children) | Copy Link
What do you believe is the World Health Organization's incentive for taking the stance that circumcision lowers heterosexually contracted HIV rates by 60%? I personally believe they feel like there is enough evidence to suggest that it is one of multiple means to lower HIV rates and not some scheme to profit off of people in Africa. I'm sure if you promote non-circumcision the millions who will die will take solace in knowing billions have been okay though. That's just common sense /s
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (21 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (20 children) | Copy Link
There are no health benefits of female circumcision. Why make that comparison?
[–]naicore 1 point2 points3 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link
You're 4x less likely to develop complications from the surgery as an infant. Source: http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision
[–]throwaway0583249 2 points3 points4 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
I do not believe the AAP has been discredited outside of your echo chamber. They have released a response to the backlash of their stance I think is worth reading: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/18/medethics-2013-101456.extract
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Circumcision requires the use of anesthesia. Here is the AAP's recommendation for reducing the pain suffered by the infants:
"Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with newborn circumcision; thus, adequate analgesia should be provided whenever newborn circumcision is performed.
Nonpharmacologic techniques (eg, positioning, sucrose pacifiers) alone are insufficient to prevent procedural and postprocedural pain and are not recommended as the sole method of analgesia. They should be used only as analgesic adjuncts to improve infant comfort during circumcision.
If used, topical creams may cause a higher incidence of skin irritation in low birth weight infants, compared with infants of normal weight; penile nerve block techniques should therefore be chosen for this group of newborns."
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
Personally, I'm happy that my parents decided to circumcise me when I was a baby. The procedure sounds painful when done in adulthood so it's unlikely I would have gotten it done if they had chosen to let me decide. But now I have a penis that I love, a slightly reduced risk of STDs, and no memory of a painful recovery. In my mind, it was the best case scenario.
[–]Deipnoseophist 5 points6 points7 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]smokeybehr -28 points-27 points-26 points (54 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 38 points39 points40 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Oberyn_Reed 28 points29 points30 points (52 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 13 points14 points15 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]FinalMantasyX -20 points-19 points-18 points (50 children) | Copy Link
[–]WigglingCaboose 11 points12 points13 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[+]FinalMantasyX -10 points-9 points-8 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mac4491 11 points12 points13 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[+]FinalMantasyX -7 points-6 points-5 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Thinkmoreaboutit 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Yndrd1984 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Yndrd1984 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mac4491 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 20 points21 points22 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 10 points11 points12 points (21 children) | Copy Link
[+]FinalMantasyX -6 points-5 points-4 points (20 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 12 points13 points14 points (19 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -5 points-4 points-3 points (18 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 12 points13 points14 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mac4491 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -2 points-1 points0 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 13 points14 points15 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]johnnie-fuckwit points [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link
I've been both cut and uncut as an adult. Would be nice if they gave you a choice, but you're not a human rights violation. Not much difference, for me at least, except that it got rid of a problem I had.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[+]johnnie-fuckwit points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
Might have been huh? Might have been a secret portal to Hogwarts too.
[–]belle_bella 10 points11 points12 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinalMantasyX -4 points-3 points-2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Consilio_et_Animis 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]belle_bella 9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bestnamesweretaken -4 points-3 points-2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]bestnamesweretaken -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Gunter101 -5 points-4 points-3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]TastesLikeBerning points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
I have posted several sources on that subject. You haven't looked at any of them. Aaand yet another https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man response from you.
[–]HelperBot_ 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (31 children) | Copy Link
While I agree it should be a man's right to make the choice, I think this topic goes a bit off the rails into the realm of 'sexual abuse' and 'mutilation.' I personally think that's extremely hyperbolic.
As for the decreased sensitivity, this is just one of those historical 'facts' that gets thrown around to fit a narrative, there are innumerable peer reviewed studies that have been conducted, and found no such evidence. Here is just one, but a simple google search will bring up numerous.
Full article
I see the discussions below regarding the AAP below, and attempts to discredit them as a legitimate scientific organization, and twisting their articles to make it seem as though they have an agenda. This is the same dangerous thought process that creates climate change deniers and antivaccers. While I agree that it should be a mans right to choose, I think it is in everyone's best interest to protest in a more logical manner than the aforementioned.
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link
I edited my comment to reflect my views on it, if you hadn't read that yet. First of all, banned is pretty strong, especially in a forum that is meant to promote choice, and equal rights. There are cultural and religious reasons people do so, and they should have that right. Additionally, in regards to a bris and a rabi using his teeth. This is a very very small sect of Hasidic jews that still practice this, if that is your issue... you should take it up with them (approximately 1.7% of the US, most of which do not circumcise this way). I don't have an issue with it if it is done in a sterile, clinical environment.. and the man is old enough to make that decision.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link
Sigh.. this is the off the deep end I was talking about, I guess we're talking about sawing limbs off of babies now.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link
I'll refer to the core of my argument - from the beginning, I have had the stance that nothing should be done to a person that cannot decide for themselves. So if we're talking about all procedures, sure... If you're an adult and want to saw your legs off, go for it.. Although I would question your sanity and decision making skills.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
I am against circumcision of a child - this has been my point the whole time, I am against banning circumcision as a medical procedure as a whole, however.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]rodrigogirao 4 points5 points6 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link
I meant in the sense of the overall long term impact, not the procedure itself. I know it's an unpopular opinion on this sub to not have an entirely hyperbolic stance on circumcision, so I was prepared for the downvote train (see below where the conversation turns to tearing limbs off of infants).
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link
It's not - here are some quick searches, I'm sure they'll be outright ignored or considered not valid, but here we go. And although anecdotal, I should mention I'm a circumcised adult, and I noticed absolutely 0, zip, not even a little bit of reduced sensitivity
Here
Here
Here
Here
Here
Here
[–]rodrigogirao 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]DuckHorseDuck points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
Two of your sources are Brian Morris, a circumcision enthusiast and fetishist who has supported making circumcision mandatory.
Two more are from the Bossio study, which found exactly what /u/MenDeserveRights said and an earlier study found: that circumcision removes the most sensitive part of the penis. Quoting from the study:
Bossio has also done a review of Circumcision studies, in which she criticizes Morris' review:
Are you a circumcised adult, or were you circumcised as an adult? That's a pretty huge difference.
[+]dranic points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
As an adult - and fair enough, like I said it was a quick search - the information is there if you want to find it. Honestly, you'll find it for both sides, and it will always end in a stalemate, which is why this discussion keeps coming up over and over again. My contention is mostly how it is discussed, as in previous statements - no one even considers alternative viewpoints (especially on this thread). There can be no grey area, it is either severe sexual abuse and mutilation, or you're written off as brainwashed by society. It's a bit obnoxious, there are some quality posts on this sub, but this is the one topic that gets out of hand
[–]Deipnoseophist 4 points5 points6 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+]dranic points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
Nobody is trying to change minds? This entire thread is talking in circles, everyone agrees routine circumcision is inappropriate. Yet people argue that I shouldn't be able to make that decision for myself as an adult? Absurd
[–]Deipnoseophist 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]rodrigogirao 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Deipnoseophist 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link