Despite my disagreement with much of the anti-feminist narrative in this subreddit. This shit is absolutely abominable and I'm absolutely dumbstruck that people are okay with this obscene double standard.
That said, I don't think the solution lies in giving men the right to veto a pregnancy. There is no ethical way to do that. I think the solution is in opting out. If one opts out, they are under no obligation to support the child. Additionally, they forfeit any parental rights.
Never might be a strong word. The concept of the family as it stands has not been around forever and certainly will not be around forever. It won't be an eternity before technology is better at parenting than humans and the concept of the family as we know it dissolves.
Giving the option to opt out places the burden on society and punishes the child.
And it's terrible that some women would be so selfish and irresponsible as to force a child into existence under those circumstances, but we cannot hold the position that a woman's choices and actions matter and simultaneously hold a man responsible for mitigating the harms her choices and actions cause.
In any case, I don't think women would continue abusing children like you fear if the current economic incentives to do so are removed.
And it's terrible that some women would be so selfish and irresponsible as to force a child into existence under those circumstances
So how are you going to justify anti-abortion laws? And then are you really going to force a woman to have an abortion at the same time? You do realize this could all be prevented by the man taking precaution, right? Wear condoms with a spermicide to significantly reduce the chance or get a vasectomy to almost eliminate the chance.
we cannot hold the position that a woman's choices and actions matter and simultaneously hold a man responsible for mitigating the harms her choices and actions cause.
There's nothing wrong with holding them both responsible for their choices and actions.
In any case, I don't think women would continue abusing children like you fear if the current economic incentives to do so are removed.
If you think there's an economic incentive for a woman to mother a child alone, you are seriously mistaken.
So how are you going to justify anti-abortion laws?
I'm not.
And then are you really going to force a woman to have an abortion at the same time?
No.
You do realize this could all be prevented by the man taking precaution, right?
Yes. Could all be prevented by the woman taking precaution, too. Most likely, I expect people will continue to take these precautions.
And since women will no longer be able to control men's bodies, there will be no further reason for feminists to fight against technologies that would expand contraceptive options for men (e.g., gossypol, RISUG/vasalgel), some of which may also improve or expand contraceptive options for women.
There's nothing wrong with holding them both responsible for their choices and actions.
I do acknowledge that taking a step backwardstowards gender equality is a possibility and thus reduce women's rights to be equal to men's. I'd rather movement be towards gender equal reproductive rights.
If you think there's an economic incentive for a woman to mother a child alone, you are seriously mistaken.
Eh? Why would a woman choose "to mother a child alone" when the state will happily assist her in violating a man's reproductive rights for cash and prizes?
Remove those incentives, and you'd probably see fewer unwanted children being born (and fewer unwanted pregnancies, too, I'magine).
Yes. Could all be prevented by the woman taking precaution, too.
Birth control is only so effective. If takes multiple forms of protection to reduce the chance to practically zero.
And since women will no longer be able to control men's bodies, there will be no further reason for feminists to fight against technologies that would expand contraceptive options for men (e.g., gossypol, RISUG/vasalgel), some of which may also improve or expand contraceptive options for women.
Feminists aren't trying to prevent though technologies. If you want to find out who is attacking those technologies, the largest anti-contraceptive groups are religious organizations and conservatives.
I do acknowledge that taking a step backwards towards gender equality is a possibility and thus reduce women's rights to be equal to men's.
You're arguing that we take a step back to give men control of women instead of neither controlling the other.
Why would a woman choose "to mother a child alone" when the state will happily assist her in violating a man's reproductive rights for cash and prizes?
Unless she took the semen from the condom and impregnated herself, it's not violating the man's reproductive rights.
Remove those incentives, and you'd probably see fewer unwanted children being born (and fewer unwanted pregnancies, too, I'magine).
Except you won't because it's not a financial benefit. The only way to reduce the number of unwanted children and pregnancies is to stop letting religious organizations and conservatives pollute our politics and minds into believing sex education, contraceptives, and abortions should be illegal.
If you want to find out who is attacking those technologies, the largest anti-contraceptive groups are religious organizations and conservatives.
Since "pro-life" and "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights substantially align in the case of controlling men's bodies, various possibilities for male contraception are going to be largely excluded from the discussion unless you find a space where non-feminist and anti-feminist approaches to gender equality are represented.
But I do agree if you're only familiar with the limited perspective of the feminist approach, it might seem as you describe.
You're arguing that we take a step back to give men control of women instead of neither controlling the other.
No. I'm acknowledging that a step backwards towards gender equality is a real risk if "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights continues.
I'm arguing instead for gender equal reproductive rights with, as you say, "neither controlling the other".
Except you won't because it's not a financial benefit.
Can you explain what distinction you're making between "removing financial incentives" and "not a financial benefit"? Because it sounds like your saying what would happen wouldn't happen because what would happen would happen.
The only way to reduce the number of unwanted children and pregnancies is to stop letting religious organizations and conservatives pollute our politics and minds into believing sex education, contraceptives, and abortions should be illegal.
Ending "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights would do a great deal to undercut the power "pro-life" people have to take that opposition and apply it gender equally.
I'm just going to quickly end your concerns by answering this with a yes.
You're concerns go away if you simply answer that question with a yes.
Women most certainly should be able to do this. In that case, should the father make the same choice, the child would be put up for adoption. If not, the father gets custody.
it’s completely unworkable.
You know relinquishing custody already exists as a female right don't you? Not all adoptions are orphans. Women can forfeit parental rights. You seem to be implying they can't which is confusing me.
Should a woman have the right to a paper abortion, unilaterally foisting the entire financial responsibility onto the father if he wanted the child?
Yes, I believe that. I can't see a single reason why that should not be the case.
but I don’t believe it would be beneficial to society to allow a parent to unilaterally sever their responsibility, in either direction.
Women already have that right, and I don't see that being taken away. I don't even know how that would be enforceable. Even if you attempted it, you'd just have people doing drastic things to get rid of their children. If a mother couldn't give up a child legally, they would likely abandon them in less responsible ways or even kill them.
My question is, should the reverse be acceptable as well? Should a woman have the right to a paper abortion, unilaterally foisting the entire financial responsibility onto the father if he wanted the child?
Yes. And this is an outcome that is not currently possible under "pro-life" and "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights. A woman stuck in such a situation might have an abortion she would not freely choose because that is currently the only way for her to avoid being forced to use her body to support an unwanted child for 18+ years.
Ideally both people involve have gotten on the same page and clearly understand each other's intentions before they have sex. Especially cautious people can have whatever opt-in or opt-out paperwork completed and signed at this point.
But assuming they don't talk at all beforehand, contraception fails or is not used, and a pregnancy results.
The woman may choose to abort, adopt, or abandon an unwanted child just as she can do now (actually somewhat more above-board since some states technically require the consent of both parents, but this is feasibly overcome with a bit of secrecy and fraud.) If she would choose to keep the child, that's also an option.
The man may also choose to adopt or abandon an unwanted child. If he would choose to keep the child, that is also an option.
In the case where both desire to keep the child, they can raise it together as a family, do some kinda 50:50 two-single-parents thing, etc.
If one desires to keep the child and the other does not, then the consenting parent would have sole custody and responsibility.
If the child is unwanted by both parents, it would be put up for adoption and/or remain a ward of the state.
Since only the woman would be the one solely responsible to gestate/abort the fetus, she still has the option to terminate or continue an unwanted pregnancy regardless of whether the father would consent to parenthood.
OP you seem to be answering questions and I see a significant issue with the premise of this picture. It presents 3 situations:
Abortion
Adoption agency
Safe haven
The abortion one everyone understands and is well politicised, there is a biological difference between men and women. A woman can abort against the will of the father.
However the other two - this picture implies that a woman can put a child up for adoption or in a safe haven against the will of the father. That's just not true?
The laws seem equal there. Only if both parties consent can that a child be handed over to other parties.
I'm all for ensuring equal treatment, but some areas are more grey rather than black and white. This is one of those. Men and women can both take steps to reduce the chances of conception. If a child is actually produced and delivered, unless both agree to adoption, both are responsible for the child. Whether they consented to reproduce or not.
You skipped and glossed over the main point of OP. You go right on to say "but when a baby is born", while ignoring that one party has no say in it, while the other has complete autonomy to choose if she wants to give birth and be a parent. The male is forced to choose before they have sex if he is willing to consent to sex, and 18 years of financial burden/being a parent, while for the female she has options from choosing to not give birth and abort, addoption, leaving the baby at a friestation etc.
The rights before birth should be the same, so both parties have time to think if they want a child. Each knows the others thoughts, and can make a decision knowing how the next 18 years will work out. Isn't that win win? Equal rights etc?
I agree with all of what you said, you are just discussing something pretty different than OP. OP is specifically talking about what is being consented to when two consenting adults have sex, and how it is pretty unequal in nature.
A drunk couple have a one night stand, and accidentally get pregnant. The woman has weeks to decide if she wants the responsibility, burden, joy whatever of raising a child, while the mans choice is being a parent ended at conception. I'm not saying he has a right to say what happens to the womans body, or should be able to control that.
He should have the right to choose in that same time frame to not be a parent or financially responsible. Both parties have the choice to be or not be a parent.
[–]red_philosopher 482 points483 points484 points (11 children) | Copy Link
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[+]Gadaeus11 points [recovered] (152 children) | Copy Link
Despite my disagreement with much of the anti-feminist narrative in this subreddit. This shit is absolutely abominable and I'm absolutely dumbstruck that people are okay with this obscene double standard.
That said, I don't think the solution lies in giving men the right to veto a pregnancy. There is no ethical way to do that. I think the solution is in opting out. If one opts out, they are under no obligation to support the child. Additionally, they forfeit any parental rights.
[–]EricAllonde[S] 95 points96 points97 points (3 children) | Copy Link
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[+]Gadaeus11 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Never might be a strong word. The concept of the family as it stands has not been around forever and certainly will not be around forever. It won't be an eternity before technology is better at parenting than humans and the concept of the family as we know it dissolves.
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[+]Gadaeus11 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Really? I've never heard of that. If that is the case that seems like a pretty clear cut case of misandry.
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[+]AEHIILRS1 points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
And it's terrible that some women would be so selfish and irresponsible as to force a child into existence under those circumstances, but we cannot hold the position that a woman's choices and actions matter and simultaneously hold a man responsible for mitigating the harms her choices and actions cause.
In any case, I don't think women would continue abusing children like you fear if the current economic incentives to do so are removed.
[+]Pake10001 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
So how are you going to justify anti-abortion laws? And then are you really going to force a woman to have an abortion at the same time? You do realize this could all be prevented by the man taking precaution, right? Wear condoms with a spermicide to significantly reduce the chance or get a vasectomy to almost eliminate the chance.
There's nothing wrong with holding them both responsible for their choices and actions.
If you think there's an economic incentive for a woman to mother a child alone, you are seriously mistaken.
[+]AEHIILRS1 points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
I'm not.
No.
Yes. Could all be prevented by the woman taking precaution, too.
Most likely, I expect people will continue to take these precautions.
And since women will no longer be able to control men's bodies, there will be no further reason for feminists to fight against technologies that would expand contraceptive options for men (e.g., gossypol, RISUG/vasalgel), some of which may also improve or expand contraceptive options for women.
I do acknowledge that taking a step backwards towards gender equality is a possibility and thus reduce women's rights to be equal to men's. I'd rather movement be towards gender equal reproductive rights.
Eh? Why would a woman choose "to mother a child alone" when the state will happily assist her in violating a man's reproductive rights for cash and prizes?
Remove those incentives, and you'd probably see fewer unwanted children being born (and fewer unwanted pregnancies, too, I'magine).
[+]Pake10001 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Birth control is only so effective. If takes multiple forms of protection to reduce the chance to practically zero.
Feminists aren't trying to prevent though technologies. If you want to find out who is attacking those technologies, the largest anti-contraceptive groups are religious organizations and conservatives.
You're arguing that we take a step back to give men control of women instead of neither controlling the other.
Unless she took the semen from the condom and impregnated herself, it's not violating the man's reproductive rights.
Except you won't because it's not a financial benefit. The only way to reduce the number of unwanted children and pregnancies is to stop letting religious organizations and conservatives pollute our politics and minds into believing sex education, contraceptives, and abortions should be illegal.
[+]AEHIILRS1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Is there a point to this thread of conversation?
https://youtu.be/JymN5yu-K_o
Since "pro-life" and "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights substantially align in the case of controlling men's bodies, various possibilities for male contraception are going to be largely excluded from the discussion unless you find a space where non-feminist and anti-feminist approaches to gender equality are represented.
But I do agree if you're only familiar with the limited perspective of the feminist approach, it might seem as you describe.
No. I'm acknowledging that a step backwards towards gender equality is a real risk if "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights continues.
I'm arguing instead for gender equal reproductive rights with, as you say, "neither controlling the other".
Can you explain what distinction you're making between "removing financial incentives" and "not a financial benefit"? Because it sounds like your saying what would happen wouldn't happen because what would happen would happen.
Ending "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights would do a great deal to undercut the power "pro-life" people have to take that opposition and apply it gender equally.
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[+]Gadaeus11 points [recovered] (77 children) | Copy Link
I'm just going to quickly end your concerns by answering this with a yes.
You're concerns go away if you simply answer that question with a yes.
Women most certainly should be able to do this. In that case, should the father make the same choice, the child would be put up for adoption. If not, the father gets custody.
You know relinquishing custody already exists as a female right don't you? Not all adoptions are orphans. Women can forfeit parental rights. You seem to be implying they can't which is confusing me.
[+]j1mb0 -14 points-13 points-12 points (76 children) | Copy Link
[+]Gadaeus11 points [recovered] (42 children) | Copy Link
Yes, I believe that. I can't see a single reason why that should not be the case.
Women already have that right, and I don't see that being taken away. I don't even know how that would be enforceable. Even if you attempted it, you'd just have people doing drastic things to get rid of their children. If a mother couldn't give up a child legally, they would likely abandon them in less responsible ways or even kill them.
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[+]AEHIILRS1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Yes. And this is an outcome that is not currently possible under "pro-life" and "pro-choice" opposition to reproductive rights. A woman stuck in such a situation might have an abortion she would not freely choose because that is currently the only way for her to avoid being forced to use her body to support an unwanted child for 18+ years.
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[+]AEHIILRS1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Ideally both people involve have gotten on the same page and clearly understand each other's intentions before they have sex. Especially cautious people can have whatever opt-in or opt-out paperwork completed and signed at this point.
But assuming they don't talk at all beforehand, contraception fails or is not used, and a pregnancy results.
The woman may choose to abort, adopt, or abandon an unwanted child just as she can do now (actually somewhat more above-board since some states technically require the consent of both parents, but this is feasibly overcome with a bit of secrecy and fraud.) If she would choose to keep the child, that's also an option.
The man may also choose to adopt or abandon an unwanted child. If he would choose to keep the child, that is also an option.
In the case where both desire to keep the child, they can raise it together as a family, do some kinda 50:50 two-single-parents thing, etc.
If one desires to keep the child and the other does not, then the consenting parent would have sole custody and responsibility.
If the child is unwanted by both parents, it would be put up for adoption and/or remain a ward of the state.
Since only the woman would be the one solely responsible to gestate/abort the fetus, she still has the option to terminate or continue an unwanted pregnancy regardless of whether the father would consent to parenthood.
[–]j1mb0 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
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[+]DelayedNeutron1 points [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link
But women can?
[–]scyth3s 4 points5 points6 points (10 children) | Copy Link
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[+]DelayedNeutron1 points [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link
You realize people can be sarcastic, right?
[–]scyth3s 3 points4 points5 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[+]DelayedNeutron1 points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
Says the snarky smartass that didn't answer the question he was asked either.
[–]scyth3s 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+]DelayedNeutron1 points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
You much smart.
Me no can compete.
Fuck off.
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[+]DelayedNeutron1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Men kill themselves at twice the rate of women as a baseline.
Your point?
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[+]ky301 points [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link
Huh... I always thought this was a thing but I've had a vasectomy since my early 20's so I never looked into it
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[+]elnormous1 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
Not OP, but yes, no difference in sensation
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[+]ky301 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Everything is the exact same, my semen is just a little more clear instead of cloudy due to absence of sperm cells
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OP you seem to be answering questions and I see a significant issue with the premise of this picture. It presents 3 situations:
The abortion one everyone understands and is well politicised, there is a biological difference between men and women. A woman can abort against the will of the father.
However the other two - this picture implies that a woman can put a child up for adoption or in a safe haven against the will of the father. That's just not true?
The laws seem equal there. Only if both parties consent can that a child be handed over to other parties.
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Oh God a liberal trying to use snowflake is just so cringy stop
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I'm all for ensuring equal treatment, but some areas are more grey rather than black and white. This is one of those. Men and women can both take steps to reduce the chances of conception. If a child is actually produced and delivered, unless both agree to adoption, both are responsible for the child. Whether they consented to reproduce or not.
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Sure, I'll ask the one question that is always ignored: why should my tax dollars have to pay to support your kid?
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You mean... Like women do? Why don't you answer the simple question of why you don't want equal rights for men
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The same argument is made why women don't need abortions just dont have sex you idiot
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You skipped and glossed over the main point of OP. You go right on to say "but when a baby is born", while ignoring that one party has no say in it, while the other has complete autonomy to choose if she wants to give birth and be a parent. The male is forced to choose before they have sex if he is willing to consent to sex, and 18 years of financial burden/being a parent, while for the female she has options from choosing to not give birth and abort, addoption, leaving the baby at a friestation etc.
The rights before birth should be the same, so both parties have time to think if they want a child. Each knows the others thoughts, and can make a decision knowing how the next 18 years will work out. Isn't that win win? Equal rights etc?
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I agree with all of what you said, you are just discussing something pretty different than OP. OP is specifically talking about what is being consented to when two consenting adults have sex, and how it is pretty unequal in nature.
A drunk couple have a one night stand, and accidentally get pregnant. The woman has weeks to decide if she wants the responsibility, burden, joy whatever of raising a child, while the mans choice is being a parent ended at conception. I'm not saying he has a right to say what happens to the womans body, or should be able to control that.
He should have the right to choose in that same time frame to not be a parent or financially responsible. Both parties have the choice to be or not be a parent.
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No Condoms exist for a reason
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