Is there anyway we could just focus on issues and not say anything about feminism?

KurtWagnersBamfSmoke · 2021-10-07T11:27:56+00:00

For some feminism IS the issue. We don't hate women at all, plenty have sisters, aunts, moms, daughters and friends, that we love dearly. But it's the ideals, policies, and practices, that are the problem.

dingoperson2 · 2021-10-07T08:23:29+00:00

Part of the reason people are against the MRM it's seen as anti-woman because somehow in the hive mind of society being anti-feminist equates to anti-woman

Gee, I wonder what movement this has roots in:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/23879.Andrea_Dworkin

“Antifeminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defense of woman hating.”

I completely agree that we should focus on making things better for men. Feminism is however not the only thing, but a mountain-range, standing in the way.

Edit: But I also agree with OP's edit. Pointing out the inhumanity of feminists historically, and the psychopathy of modern feminists praising and hailing them, can only produce so much. We do need to point out ways in which men are doing badly, deserve help, and are disadvantaged in practice and in law.

dungeonmonkey69 · 2021-10-07T12:10:31+00:00

Maybe because modern feminism is a key issue?..

someone_butnoone · 2021-10-07T10:09:06+00:00

Yes, issues, where the very root lies in feminism

Input_output_error · 2021-10-07T09:00:31+00:00

I see many posts on here just ranting about feminism and how it's causing problems for society instead of coming up with actual ways to get our issues seen and understood. Part of the reason people are against the MRM it's seen as anti-woman because somehow in the hive mind of society being anti-feminist equates to anti-woman

You have answered your own question here, i believe it is just that you do not like the answer. It is fairly simple even, the issue we have is that society equates anti-feminism with anti-women.

If we just focused mostly on the issues and not always who might be to blame we might be able to get more listening to us.

The issue here is feminism, most of the problems men face are either directly caused by feminism or feminism is holding everyone back from fixing the problem. How would you suggest to address something like male victims of domestic violence without addressing things like the Duluth model (feminist in origin) or the complete lack of male domestic violence shelters? You know that the main reason for not having male shelters for domestic violence victims is because feminism is opposed to them, right?

This isn't r/MensLib there really is no need to cater to feminist doctrine or appease their religion in any way. If feminist are allowed to complain about their perceived pAtRiaRchY then it should be okay for us to complain about the very real cancer that is feminism.

Zipdox · 2021-10-07T15:24:38+00:00

Misandry is an issue.

oafsalot · 2021-10-07T11:18:02+00:00

Nope, because feminism is one of the issues. It's a zero sum game, as long as feminism has the resources of society, and the ear of the media, they won't give it up. And they have to give it up to make it equal. So no, feminism is using more than it's fair share and has to hand some over.

Angryasfk · 2021-10-07T10:18:14+00:00

It is essential that the “hive mind” stop equating “feminism” and “women”. Pandering to the lie that they’re one and the same simply reinforces this lie. Furthermore feminists are actively opposing pretty much of the positive moves on the issues you speak of: either direct opposition, or merely asserting that it’s a case of “patriarchy hurts men too” and that the solution is to “dismantle the patriarchy”, which in practice means putting whatever campaign they’ve got ahead of dealing with this issues. The idea is that once all the feminist campaigns succeed, the “men’s issue” will automatically be resolved. This is a fundamental problem. Until feminism is seen not as a movement for “equality” but merely a movement to boost women, no headway will be made. Exposing feminism is fundamental.

EmirikolWoker · 2021-10-07T08:29:47+00:00

The foundational principles of all flavours of feminism (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for it to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Egalitarian values, and mens' rights advocacy in particular, is innately anti-feminist.

TrilIias · 2021-10-07T11:16:04+00:00

No, part of the reason people are against the MRM is they immediately think "Why do we need a men's rights movement, men already have all the rights." The reason people think this is because feminism has very deliberately told them this. It's the essential belief of feminism. How do you get rid of the key idea of feminism without attacking feminists? If you just try to go about it by correcting feminists and telling people that feminism is just fine but men do not, in fact, enjoy an excess of human rights, then you will confuse people, and even if you aren't trying to start an argument with feminists, when they see you tearing their ideology apart, they'll certainly start the argument with you. So now you're on the defensive trying to convince people that feminism is good and correct, while the feminists with more influence than you are telling those same people that you're a backwards idiot. It's guaranteed to fail.

I'd also point out that many people have tried to address men's issues under the heading of feminism. This includes Warren Farrell, and a gay man who recently posted here about his significant involvement in feminist organizations. It never goes well. Even if you aren't hostile to feminism, feminism is hostile to men's rights.

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2021-10-07T14:17:24+00:00

"Let's be nice to feminists!" is not a men's rights issue.

If YOU want to discuss something that IS a men's right issue, please do! Take your own advice and focus on the issue, not attempting to tone police other MRAs.

yoitsericc · 2021-10-07T15:13:49+00:00

It's almost like every time a man discusses a serious issue, he gets called a misogynist and told he needs to be a feminist and support women because their issues are worse.

Selfmade_3127 · 2021-10-07T09:10:23+00:00

so what if the issues are caused by feminism / gynocentrism?

DestructionDestroyer · 2021-10-07T13:56:34+00:00

No. There isn't a way. It'd be like the Civil Rights movement of the 1950's trying to "just focus on issues and not say anything about the KKK".

boy_named_su · 2021-10-07T13:01:55+00:00

Army Private: is there any way we can focus on our army's issues and not say anything about the enemy?

HenryCGk · 2021-10-07T14:58:03+00:00

I don't know why fire departments and so opposed to people having campfires in the woods can't they just put out Forrest fires with out getting upset when you tip a hot barbecue in to dry leaves.

hottake_toothache · 2021-10-07T15:33:13+00:00

You mean we should not mention the socially dominant philosophy that wants to crush the men's movement? Yeah, that sounds like a terrible idea.

program_mer · 2021-10-07T13:16:04+00:00

No respect for people who support feminism.. it's a cult and should be eradicated...

magicalecazam · 2021-10-07T15:52:12+00:00

Zelda: "Can we just focus on running a kingdom and not worry about Ganon? Let's just ignore the primordial evil that exists to kill us. Anything else would just be petty at this point."

That's what you sound like. It doesn't matter if you're not at war with them. They're at war with you.

PeteyMax · 2021-10-07T16:07:54+00:00

No. In several jurisdictions, legislation was tabled that would have made equal-shared-parenting the default in the event of a divorce. In every case, these efforts by father's groups and men's rights activists were scuttle by the National Association of Women. This is certainly not the only time feminists have opposed MRAs. When I was volunteering for CAFE, feminist-identifying, neo-Marxist groups deliberately disrupted our meetings, pulled fire alarms and barricaded the doors. Does it seem wise or prudent to avoid talking about those who directly oppose us, sometimes with violence?

Iceman_Hottie · 2021-10-07T10:29:19+00:00

Feminism is the thing most dirrecly responsible for or preventing from tackling men's rights issues.

I point out where I can that the issues that feminism created have their roots in the creation of the political left-wing philosophy and romantic philosophy. Flaws at their cores that ensure that everything derived from it such as feminism will invariably lead to horrible outcomes.

Most people do not fully understand the positions of various philosophical schools or their histories. Most people don't know that classical liberalism has evolved from stoicism and is in fundamental opposition to left-wing ideology. Most people forget that that nazis were left-wing and it is a form of socialism (feminism is also based on socialism) according to Hitler. Most people don't know that the core of left-wing ideology is opposition to right-wing ideology, and has no virtues, as having virtues is a right-wing position. Most people don't know that the right-wing position on hierarchy is contingent obligations, I. E. To take up this position you have to do x, also known as fulfilling a role (sometimes enforced by assassination). Most people don't realise that right-wing philosophy is a very long process and is illsuited to deal with large and rapid changes, such as navigating crisis situations. The list goes on.

All of this can get very complex an can get easily overwhelming, so most people focus on the easier and most dirrecly harmful bit that is feminism.

TAMU_TIX_Throwaway · 2021-10-07T15:13:01+00:00

It would be great if we could just focus mainly on our issues and think of ways to actually get things done.

What is stopping you? You would be surprised how much a single person can get done if they have the willpower. I personally have several federal legal procedures I have kicked off across the country through OCR. It is emotional labor and mentally tiring.

OCR is a government agency, things move slow. They can't pick up every case, some that you file will be dropped, even if you are right. This means I do as much work as I can for them without getting in their way. In one filing I went through 50 or so companies and listed recent government contracts and/or DUNS ID's to help OCR determine juristictions. This went as far as looking up parent companies funding as it might also guide juristictions. Took a whole afternoon and I did it before filing.

I check in on all aspects of the cases every couple months, this means checking what the group I filed against is doing and filing updates to OCR as needed. In doing this I check the group itself, official social media accounts, personal social media accounts, sometimes social media of members/employees. In one instance this resulted in me catching one group in what I allege is a violation of a previous civil rights resolution they agreed to.

I have filed FOIA requests and developed detailed documentation to the point that I have an organized file directory for all my cases including timelines and tagging.

Total cost to me so far is a couple grand to my private / personal civil rights attorney (not OCR) that I keep on retainer. You don't need an attorney to get most of this stuff done. I have skin in the game for a big case I am a complaintant in and needed the attorney as a "cya" because I need good council for how to navigate that one.

I've also talked to Mike Perry on a few occasions to learn about his experiences and if what I was going through with these agencies was normal or not.

These things aren't instant. It takes years of smaller cases setting a theme. Getting agencies to make rulings and show direction of things. Put the pressure on and make some small steps toward goals. Everything counts, even if it's a failure or a rejection.

__pulsar · 2021-10-07T17:41:36+00:00

If we just focused mostly on the issues and not always who might be to blame we might be able to get more listening to us.

This would be true if we were dealing with people who operate in good faith, but we are not.

They've been lying about the men's rights movement from day one.

No matter what we say or do, they will smear us as evil misogynists.

ZangryGrapes · 2021-10-07T17:54:03+00:00

Yet when we see people ranting about men, it is somehow not a problem?

TracyMorganFreeman · 2021-10-08T06:38:41+00:00

>think of ways to actually get things done

When feminist activism is literally an obstacle to this, discussing feminism is part of the conversation.

EviessVeralan · 2021-10-07T19:36:36+00:00

Is there anyway we could just focus on issues and not say anything about feminism?

Part of the reason people are against the MRM it's seen as anti-woman because somehow in the hive mind of society being anti-feminist equates to anti-woman

You cant solve a problem without acknowledging why said problem exists. You can't combat inequality while ignoring the biggest threat to equality in western culture. Feminists have had the opportunity to actually support equality and have repeatedly ignored it.

The modern feminist movement is a female supremacy movement. This is why they brand disagreement with being anti woman, its all about power. They give zero fucks about actual equality.

Attempting to ignore the feminist lynch mob in some kind of attempt to be nice to them will only end in feminism continuing to gain power until mens rights are non existent. Feminists arent our friends theyre our adversaries.

rezz_blastin29 · 2021-10-07T12:04:04+00:00

Something tells me OP is an infiltrator.

Mythandros · 2021-10-07T15:45:03+00:00

No.

Feminism is the single biggest barrier to equal rights that we face. It deserves the ridicule and insults thrown its way, and a lot more.

Stop concern trolling.

Tmomp · 2021-10-07T11:45:42+00:00

The irony of the title doing what it suggests not to.

dontpet · 2021-10-07T17:11:10+00:00

I doubt what you want can be created on a sub like this. Even if there were only 10% of the current references to feminism on this sub it would be seen in the same light.

I see this space as a highly effective way to learn about men's issues as it currently is. I don't know of anywhere better. I get the facts as well as the real stories of men. So useful.

I think that gynocentrism as well as misandry are the main issues for us to overcome as a society. Caring and affection for men is very much missing, and that allows so much harm to be done to us.

I've put some energy into International Men's Day for that reason. It doesn't seem to get a lot of traction though, even on this sub.

g1455ofwater · 2021-10-07T20:04:42+00:00

Feminism is a major issue, quit trying to appease abusers. Appeasing abusers is why we are in the situation we are in.

If you want to focus on other things great, go for it. This is not a job, other people can behave as they want. You don't have the right to tell abused people how the want to work through their abuse.

Why don't you lecture those that aren't involved in Men's Rights? Why don't you ask them why they aren't involved?

rabel111 · 2021-10-07T23:09:16+00:00

Given most women do not associate with feminism, it's unlikely that your statement is true.

The more likely reason MRA forums like r/MensRights have a poor public image is the mis-information published about MRAs by the media and feminist academics.

Turning a blind eye to those who publically and viciously lobby against you due to your sex and political beliefs, achieves nothing other than the empowerment of those who hate you. Calling out misandry and discrimination aganst men and boys is an important and necessary response to those who hate males and masculinity.

I don't hate feminists, but I don't fear feminists either, and will call them out when they actively support misandry, hate speech and violence towards men and boys.

GynocentrismCanSMyD · 2021-10-08T00:06:41+00:00

Not really, feminism (and the gynocentrism driving it) is literally the number one issue facing men today.

ImplodedPotatoSalad · 2021-10-13T23:29:19+00:00

So, feminism is not an issue? The same feminism that is the cause of i.e. the duluth model? The aame feminism that spawned such scum as valerie solanas and her ilk?

You really think, OP, that feminism is not a problem?

I sense a troll, or a feminist...

YoDaddy1069 · 2021-10-07T19:44:25+00:00

Completely agree with you. I hate when guys turn this movement into an anti-feminist/anti-SJW reactionary movement. Most of feminism is about nothing more than reacting to very trivial things, and I see guys on this subreddit literally complain about that, and then show the same exact behavior themselves.

I made a post one time talking about this and I didn’t get nearly as much support as I was hoping. The biggest things I care about are specific policies that are biased against men. Title IX, affirmative action, alimony and child support laws are the 4 biggest policies that bother me that need change NOW!!! I wish we as a movement could be more organized so that we can reform these policies. I’m almost tempted to get my own sub-movement within Men’s rights of guys that exclusively focus on systemic issues causes directly by these oppressive laws

hehimCA · 2021-10-07T14:19:34+00:00

I hear what you are saying. While yes feminism is a huge issue, we need to dedicate energy to building our own organizations, media, with goals. Simply pointing out the problems of feminism, while valid, doesn’t get us that far.

Speak at local meetings to recognize international men’s day in your district. Work to create commissions for boys and men. Grow a mustache for Movember. In other words even in small ways start to be proactive, and also look to organize for bigger changes.

WeaknessTechnical654 · 2021-10-08T04:18:33+00:00

Good post. I feel like more and more of this sub is just whining about radical feminists. They act as if radical feminists are the majority of the populace or something.

fitterofpipe · 2021-10-07T16:08:20+00:00

So what’s wrong with feminism I’m new here

MrElderwood · 2021-10-07T15:21:29+00:00

Given how effective feminisms channels of communication have become, and the positive changes they have enabled for women, it's difficult not to use them as a comparative counter-point. However, I do see what you are getting at.

Nihi1986 · 2021-10-07T17:37:50+00:00

I get your point and I also think it'd be beneficial for men's rights if it wasn't seen the way it is and associated with the ideas it is, but let's be honest, men's rights issues have most of the roots in greedy modern feminism and it's simply impossible to ignore it.

That shouldn't stop anyone from supporting women and their real issues which actually exist or from being a (traditional) feminist if he wants. However, make no mistake, you can't apply 'positive discrimination' in favour of women and give them more power than men are given and expect equality and no negative consequences for men.

Feminism has to be toned down, we all know it, and feminists know that we know it, we are always going to be targeted no matter how we express ourselves because the core of modern feminism isn't 'equality'. The core of more traditional feminism wasn't even equality but many of the demands were more than fair and reasonable. What we have nowadays is straight up toxic and evil for both men and women and, honestly, many women are aware and actually speak against it, facing some consequences too, not the kind of consequences a man would face but still...

Modern feminism has to be fought, at this point there's no other way.

fuckea6969 · 2021-10-07T20:37:58+00:00

Part of the reason people are against the MRM it's seen as anti-woman because somehow in the hive mind of society being anti-feminist equates to anti-woman

how is it mens fault that most of society is sexist against men and thinks feminism means equal rights only for women you said it yourself

Abstract_Knight · 2021-10-07T23:14:09+00:00

Screw you, feminism ignores (and sometimes even supports) almost always, a lot of primitive things that benefits them, such as danger jobs, the mental health of the men, and also the reason cuz there's men on the top is cuz there's a lot more on the bottom. Also the most feminist country, Spain is full of misandry everywhere.

We need the media and governments to pay attention attention to our problems, but a lot of times when this happens a bunch of feminists appears and starts to say "mEn iS pRiViLeGeD".

I don't wanna see feminism as an enemy, because is not; but on the practice, feminism use to take the solving of the men problems as an attack. Also, they are always saying they are going to fix our problems, but they end just getting a lot of power and saying "now the men should be like this".

RottenPeach6 · 2021-10-08T02:53:39+00:00

Modern feminism is one of the issues

Otherwise_Ad_266 · 2021-10-08T02:59:57+00:00

That's like saying can we focus on issues but not say anything about war. Feminism wouldn't be a thing if society didn't MAKE it a thing. Women are paid less for the same job...but why ya know? I don't get it, as a man. Help

DavidByron2 · 2021-10-08T18:30:41+00:00

No.

Right now both sides look like they are siblings fighting

That's the optimal outcome for us right now.

Your suggesting we stop successfully making feminism look bad which would leave only this happening:

our issues won't be listened to as they will just see it as whining and reactionary

ReasonableSignature7 · 2021-10-08T18:36:14+00:00

Attacking women/feminists just makes it easy to dismiss legit grievances as men feeling threatened by strong women. Which is a damn shame because there are many genuine issues that affect men. Different to those affecting women.

Sticking to the point about the issue would achieve a lot more. Feminism was initially dismissed as man-hating craziness!

DoMi8910 · 2021-10-09T19:03:31+00:00

This is what MR should be.

Stoicism1981 · 2021-10-07T12:56:04+00:00

I guess some feminists aren’t anti men they genuinely want equality to both genders such as those live in countries like India or Middle East.

Same to guys. I believe many guys here are genuinely trying to voice the unfair treatments to men. Some just got their ego bruised badly by a feminist ball crusher so they just want to bash feminists for revenge. Let it out pal, that’s okay but I know what you are doing haha..

I take people by individual. I wouldn’t just judge someone if she says “ I am a feminist “ I’d listen to her views and opinions first, get to know her background before I make up my mind..

Ye, I totally agree with your post 😊👍

EnvironmentalWar4627 · 2021-10-07T11:11:55+00:00

If this sub had less hate for feminism, the movement would grow VERY rapidly. Everyone agrees men have disadvantages in society so it would be easy for everyone to get on board.

But when most people identify as feminist or see the posts about how women rape victims are probably lying, they just dismiss the entire group as sexist.

It would be incredibly beneficial to men for this group to grow, but attacking feminism and casting doubt on women that say they were raped seems to be a greater priority to some people.

It's frustrating because I think mens issues need to be discussed but not just by angry men. By society as a whole.

Punder_man · 2021-10-07T08:11:16+00:00

Nope. Too many people on this sub dislike women and think all feminism is the new age woke feminism. They think the patriarchy doesn't exist and that the definition of that word means it helps/supports men. Too many people here don't understand the definition of toxic masculinity, know the history of feminist movements in history, understand the society is and has been male dominated (and why thats bad for all genders), and comprehend that men's rights start with getting rid of all gender stereotypes so both sexes have the same rights.

The other day, the top post here was about how women don't like short guys. Thats it. When I said I don't like tall girls, and that this isn't a men's right or even a gender issue, someone said I must be short. In another post where I called for equality, someone said I must be a woman studying for a liberal arts degree.

80% of the people on this sub are sexist and offensive. They don't want men's rights, they want to bash things they dislike and attribute that to women.

Mods need to fucking clean this sub up. Insults should not be tolerated when discussion or questions are in good faith. All posts here need to pertain to mens rights.

S4njay · 2021-10-07T11:20:26+00:00

finally someone with sense here

Big_Homie_Mozi · 2021-10-07T14:35:06+00:00

I’m with OP. Some of the shit said here could easily be misconstrued or purposefully taken out of concept, and some of it is just straight up not right and not only perpetuates what we’re fighting against, but also embodies it.

If you’re aware your opponent likes to gaslight you, why the fuck do you keep the gas supply going? To fan the righteous flame?

Oppression like this thrives on the kind of reactions it gets here. Realizing you’ve been victimized is a shock to some people. Some realize what’s happened and take the steps they need to so they can stop being victimized, because they realize that if they want change then being in a place of strength is the best way to get it. While others wear the victim label as if it gives them agency.

This is not us saying to feel like a victim is invalid. It’s totally valid. But to wear it like an angry mask because if feels right is taking the easy route. And like OP said its not how we’re going to get heard.

WabashSon · 2021-10-07T14:19:48+00:00

This is the way.

SPAGHEEEETTI · 2021-10-07T16:20:41+00:00

No way, they hate women, why would they stop?

Title	Is there anyway we could just focus on issues and not say anything about feminism?
Author	shadowguyver
Upvotes	413
Comments	212
Date	October 7, 2021 7:50 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q3444d/is_there_anyway_we_could_just_focus_on_issues_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-there-anyway-we-could-just-focus-on-issues-and.1076935 https://theredarchive.com/post/1076935

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