LOL: Feminist Organizes 'No Bra Day' to Teach Men 'Not to Sexualise Women's Bodies'

I mean, he could be pointing out how those girls are holding society back by holding to stereotypic interests instead of generating a discussion about societal expectations of clothing and how to address that in society appropriately.

I am only half in jest, not because the comment isn't sexist to a significant degree, but because you are only going to see what you want.

Just screaming "you shouldn't be able to tell me what to wear" isn't a valid viewpoint. Of course people are told what is appropriate to wear within a given context. Everybody is told what is appropriate clothing and suffer social and authority consequence if they don't comply. If you believe that should change, this isn't the way to generate productive conversation.

There's a good argument that women's breasts don't have to be sexualised. Like say some areas of Africa where women don't cover their breasts and presumably, it's less of a cause for arousal. That's a cultural phenomena, sure. It is the culture we have in North America though, and you won't change culture by simply loudly proclaiming that it shouldn't be so. Culture doesn't shift that quickly. If you want to be in a different culture, move. Or accept that you have to work with what you have got.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I mean, he could be pointing out how those girls are holding society back by holding to stereotypic interests instead of generating a discussion about societal expectations of clothing and how to address that in society appropriately.

"All women talk about is clothes because that's all that matters to them" is not sexist? Hmm. What if I say "all men care about is pussy and booze"? Is that sexist?

Just screaming "you shouldn't be able to tell me what to wear" isn't a valid viewpoint. Of course people are told what is appropriate to wear within a given context. Everybody is told what is appropriate clothing and suffer social and authority consequence if they don't comply. If you believe that should change, this isn't the way to generate productive conversation.

Considering this made national news, I'd say it's a great way to generate productive conversation. After all, the girl's efforts were so strong that people all over the country, yourself included, are talking about it.

There's a good argument that women's breasts don't have to be sexualised. Like say some areas of Africa where women don't cover their breasts and presumably, it's less of a cause for arousal. That's a cultural phenomena, sure. It is the culture we have in North America though, and you won't change culture by simply loudly proclaiming that it shouldn't be so. Culture doesn't shift that quickly. If you want to be in a different culture, move. Or accept that you have to work with what you have got.

That's how I feel about men who are upset about unfair child custody courts. In America, women are seen as deserving of their children in custody cases after a divorce. If you want to be in a different culture, move! There are plenty of countries where child custody is automatically given to the father. If you don't want to move, accept that you have to work with what you have got.

[–]Arby01 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

am only half in jest, not because the comment isn't sexist to a significant degree

to which you respond:

is not sexist?

You aren't too good at reading comprehension? Or perhaps are too rushed and emotional to grasp the point. More likely, you have decided in advance that there are no valid arguments against your viewpoint and don't even stop to think.

I'd say it's a great way to generate productive conversation.

Conversation, yes. Productive? I doubt it. It's a tempest in a teapot. It gets feminists stirred up, but it doesn't discuss the situation rationally at all. It's all "you can't tell me what to wear" without discussing the understandable need to have socially acceptable dress codes. Unless you believe people should be able to wear whatever they want in whatever circumstances (safety gear not included). If that's what you believe, you are an idiot and deserve to have your food served by a scruffy overweight waiter wearing nothing but a banana hammock.

That's how I feel about men who are upset about unfair child custody courts.

Nice. Let's turn "she shouldn't have any expectations about adhering to social norms" Into "You shouldn't expect to have any rights but you will go to jail for your responsibilities" and that's the same thing. Especially when that situation was created by advocacy in the first place.

I would also say that we have been working with it - bringing legal challenges, proposals to changes to law, etc.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You aren't too good at reading comprehension? Or perhaps are too rushed and emotional to grasp the point. More likely, you have decided in advance that there are no valid arguments against your viewpoint and don't even stop to think.

What are you talking about? Yes, he is objectively sexist. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from?

Conversation, yes. Productive? I doubt it. It's a tempest in a teapot. It gets feminists stirred up,

No no no buddy. It gets men and men's rights activists stirred up. Look at the lot of you, throwing fits of anger because this girl organized a no-bra day. She has done absolutely nothing wrong, yet men get incredibly upset and offended by such a small thing.

It's all "you can't tell me what to wear" without discussing the understandable need to have socially acceptable dress codes.

Why is not wearing a bra socially acceptable for men but not for women?

Unless you believe people should be able to wear whatever they want in whatever circumstances (safety gear not included). If that's what you believe, you are an idiot and deserve to have your food served by a scruffy overweight waiter wearing nothing but a banana hammock.

I believe men and women should be held to similar dress codes. Isn't this subreddit supposed to be about equality?

Nice. Let's turn "she shouldn't have any expectations about adhering to social norms" Into "You shouldn't expect to have any rights but you will go to jail for your responsibilities" and that's the same thing. Especially when that situation was created by advocacy in the first place.

Wait, so if a woman doesn't like certain social norms, she should quit complaining leave the country because nothing's going to change, but if a man doesn't like certain social norms, that's totally valid? Hm, sounds like sexism to me.

[–]Arby01 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What are you talking about? Yes, he is objectively sexist. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from?

I clearly stated that I agreed the statement was sexist. You responded with some poorly worded statement in which you rhetorically asked "is not sexist?". Clearly you didn't get what I stated the first time and was too lazy to go back and re-read what was written or couldn't comprehend it the second time.

You are once again playing stupid, this time to avoid discussion AND continue your complaining. You're acting like a child with their fingers in their ears saying "I can't hear you".

No no no buddy. It gets men and men's rights activists stirred up.

Lol. Keep living in your dreamland and imagining that all the written articles aren't by feminists.

Why is not wearing a bra socially acceptable for men but not for women?

Of course women don't need to wear bras. In combination with certain other clothing, in certain situations, bras are necessary, or other clothing is necessary. If a woman doesn't want to wear a bra then she doesn't have to. Depending on the setting she is in, that may necessitate a change of top. Which is a choice that was provided to the girl in question according to the article.

I believe men and women should be held to similar dress codes. Isn't this subreddit supposed to be about equality?

Sure. Similar. In school that is at least moderately conservative in most places. Clearly she was not dressed to that standard in the belief of the people responsible for keeping that dress code followed. What part of that have you missed or do you have data about male students at the school dressing inappropriately?

Wait, ... sounds like sexism to me.

You are comparing not conforming to a (perhaps informal) dress code which all students which attend that school have to follow to the government enforced separation of children from their parents.

Good on ya. You go with that argument.

Arguing that women shouldn't have to follow the dress code isn't looking for equality. It's looking for more privilege. Somehow we have landed in a place where because the body is female, society is not supposed to make any comment about appropriateness of the choices. That's hypocritical absurdity.

Last note, you have responded to the last couple of comments in bad faith, ignoring the rational argument and pretending that i have gone off on tangents and trying to deflect and disown your own statements when they were indefensible. You are welcome to continue, I will not. You are simply looking like an idiot at this point, and I am no longer willing to provide you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't one.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol. Keep living in your dreamland and imagining that all the written articles aren't by feminists.

Lol what? Look around you in this thread. Look at the article that has been linked to in this very post. It's men who are most up-in-arms about this and who are the most upset and offended by a girl organizing a no-bra day.

Of course women don't need to wear bras. In combination with certain other clothing, in certain situations, bras are necessary, or other clothing is necessary. If a woman doesn't want to wear a bra then she doesn't have to. Depending on the setting she is in, that may necessitate a change of top. Which is a choice that was provided to the girl in question according to the article.

Why? Are men forced to change their clothes if they're not wearing a bra?

Sure. Similar. In school that is at least moderately conservative in most places. Clearly she was not dressed to that standard in the belief of the people responsible for keeping that dress code followed. What part of that have you missed or do you have data about male students at the school dressing inappropriately?

Because I never said that people should be able to wear whatever they want in any circumstances. I'm honestly not sure where you're getting all this.

Arguing that women shouldn't have to follow the dress code isn't looking for equality. It's looking for more privilege. Somehow we have landed in a place where because the body is female, society is not supposed to make any comment about appropriateness of the choices. That's hypocritical absurdity.

Where did I say that women shouldn't have to follow a dress code? I'm saying that they shouldn't be discriminated against. If men don't have to wear bras, women shouldn't have to either. Once again, you are making things up. I never said that I believe that anyone should wear whatever they want in any situation. I never said that women shouldn't have to follow any dress code. You are very literally making things up. Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

Last note, you have responded to the last couple of comments in bad faith, ignoring the rational argument and pretending that i have gone off on tangents and trying to deflect and disown your own statements when they were indefensible. You are welcome to continue, I will not. You are simply looking like an idiot at this point, and I am no longer willing to provide you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't one.

So you're saying I'm the idiot when you are very literally making things up out of thin air and claiming I said things that I didn't? Uhh okay buddy. Lmao.

[–]Arby01 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

who are the most upset and offended by a girl organizing a no-bra day.

Actually the article was sarcasm saying that 'no bra day' was probably the worst way to make the point. Realistically speaking, outside of professional environments (including school) most guys have zero problem with women not wearing bras. You, again, don't read very well. Nobody was upset or offended about it. Think it's a little absurd and amusing, sure.

The argument comes when people say that asking her to change her shirt was wrong. That's "I demand to be allowed to wear whatever I want regardless of circumstances".

Which brings us to:

Because I never said that people should be able to wear whatever they want in any circumstances. I'm honestly not sure where you're getting all this.

Yeah, you are arguing for that. You are trying to pretend the student wasn't offered the choice to change shirts and was forced to wear a bra. She choose to wear a bra instead of changing shirts. That's arguing she should be able to wear what she wants in any circumstance.

Where did I say that women shouldn't have to follow a dress code?

See above.

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

So you're saying I'm the idiot when you are very literally making things up out of thin air and claiming I said things that I didn't? Uhh okay buddy. Lmao.

Annnddd ..... right back to elementary school. Good for you.

lol. Have a great life.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually the article was sarcasm saying that 'no bra day' was probably the worst way to make the point. Realistically speaking, outside of professional environments (including school) most guys have zero problem with women not wearing bras. You, again, don't read very well. Nobody was upset or offended about it. Think it's a little absurd and amusing, sure.

Yes they do. Look at all the men in this thread; they are completely and totally up in arms about this. Seriously dude, take a look around you.

The argument comes when people say that asking her to change her shirt was wrong. That's "I demand to be allowed to wear whatever I want regardless of circumstances".

LOL what? You're right, those two sentences literally mean the exact same thing. hahaha what the fuck

Yeah, you are arguing for that. You are trying to pretend the student wasn't offered the choice to change shirts and was forced to wear a bra. She choose to wear a bra instead of changing shirts. That's arguing she should be able to wear what she wants in any circumstance.

She shouldn't have to be asked to wear a bra for any reason. If you wouldn't ask that of a man, you shouldn't ask that of a woman. Equality, right? That's what this sub is about, right?

See above.

Oh, I saw my post. And I said none of the things you claim. You are literally, once again, making things up.

lol. Have a great life.

Sorry you got frustrated...?

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[–]dalef77 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Women's breasts shouldn't be seen as sexual.

What someone thinks in their own mind is their business. Some people are attracted to strong upper arms. Others look at well-defined abs favorably. Others find long legs attractive.

However, institutions have a right to have a dress code. For example, some stores have a sign in their windows stating, "No shirt, no shoes, no service." Some companies may require their employees to wear a suit and tie. McDonald's workers and police officers have to wear a certain uniform as specified by their respective organizations.

Preference for clothing style is not a protected class, like race, religion, and sex are. In addition, the teenager in this case is free to wear her preferred style of dress at home, walking around town, etc. providing her parents agree.

Males in many public schools have dress code requirements, also. For example, in some schools in my area, male students are prohibited from wearing "muscle shirts."

Personally, I do not have an issue with a female student not wanting to wear a bra. Some studies have suggested that wearing bras for extended periods of time are not healthy for breasts. Some schools place too much emphasis on dress codes when they should be spending a greater amount of time on more important matters.

However, if a student chooses to dress immodestly and if this student believes that someone else is spending too much time looking at him/her, then he/she has no right to claim that he/she is being sexually harassed if someone examines him/her with their eyes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]dalef77 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

"...the dress code did not have anything stating that women have to wear a bra."

On page 92 of the "Helena High School Student/Parent Handbook: 2015-2016," - http://helenaschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/8.11.15-2015-2016-Handbooks-HHS.pdf - it states:

"Students' dress and grooming must not disrupt the educational process, interfere with the maintenance of a positive teaching/learning climate, or compromise reasonable standards of health, safety, and decency."

"Students are to avoid styles of dress and grooming which distract attention from the orderly pursuit of knowledge, disrupt the educational process..."

Furthermore, on page 93, the handbook states:

"Students shall wear appropriate clothing, which is not of a distractive nature. Overly revealing apparel including, but not limited to, bare midriffs, low and revealing necklines, mesh tops, low riding pants, shirts without sides, and dresses or tops which were intended, as undergarments shall not be worn in school."

However, you are correct that the school's dress code did not specifically mention that bras were required attire. Nevertheless, it can be surmised that if the student wore a different top that did not make it obvious that she was not wearing a bra, then the lack of bra would not have been an issue.

This school's dress codes, like many other school's dress codes, leave a great deal up to school officials' interpretation. The female administrator's reasoning in this matter may have been that the student's clothing was disrupting the educational process, interfering with the maintenance of a positive teaching/learning climate, compromising reasonable standards of decency, and/or distracting attention from the orderly pursuit of knowledge."

Of course, whether a student not wearing a bra would do any of the aforementioned is up for debate. However, school administrators are often provided latitude on interpreting official written policy and the official written policy regarding student dress at this school does provide the ability for officials to make subjective decisions. For example, the dress code does not specifically prohibit males from wearing speedos to class, nor does it prohibit the wearing of wet t-shirts for both sexes, but I would expect most school administrators to oppose these clothing choices.

The student handbook describes the purpose of the school's dress code, as I quoted above. Besides for not distracting others, especially around teenagers, both male and female, who are infused with copious amounts of hormones new to them, schools probably do not want to have to deal with complaints of alleged sexual harassment in the form of students claiming others were staring at them due to their clothing choices.

Furthermore, where is anyone claiming that someone is spending too much time looking at him/her?

This is a direct quote from the article:

“If my boobs make you uncomfortable, then why are you looking at me in that way?"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

However, you are correct that the school's dress code did not specifically mention that bras were required attire. Nevertheless, it can be surmised that if the student wore a different top that did not make it obvious that she was not wearing a bra, then the lack of bra would not have been an issue.

Why should she have to wear a bra for any reason?

Of course, whether a student not wearing a bra would do any of the aforementioned is up for debate. However, school administrators are often provided latitude on interpreting official written policy and the official written policy regarding student dress at this school does provide the ability for officials to make subjective decisions. For example, the dress code does not specifically prohibit males from wearing speedos to class, nor does it prohibit the wearing of wet t-shirts for both sexes, but I would expect most school administrators to oppose these clothing choices.

They can interpret the policy whatever way they want - just don't get surprised when they get called out for interpreting the policy in a sexist way.

The student handbook describes the purpose of the school's dress code, as I quoted above. Besides for not distracting others, especially around teenagers, both male and female, who are infused with copious amounts of hormones new to them, schools probably do not want to have to deal with complaints of alleged sexual harassment in the form of students claiming others were staring at them due to their clothing choices.

There was no problem with the girl being sexually harassed for not wearing a bra. In fact, the fact that the school chose to react this way generated a massive amount of negative press, far far more than if they just let the girl go braless.

[–]dalef77 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why should she have to wear a bra for any reason?

Here is an example of a woman, Kim Kardashian in this case, wearing a t-shirt without a bra - https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2a/71/e8/2a71e861407fdfd466fcfd493d628665.jpg .

Do you believe that this is appropriate attire for a school?

There was no problem with the girl being sexually harassed for not wearing a bra.

You are correct that she was not being sexually harassed, nor should she be. However, the school has an interest to take reasonable measures to prevent sexual harassment or the appearance of sexual harassment.

For example, if a teenage girl were to wear the attire that I linked above, do you think the school administrators want to hear the complaints:

"John from Geometry class was staring at my breasts."

or

"Mr. Smith was looking at me and I did not feel comfortable."

As I stated in a previous comment, if the teenager chose to wear a top that did not make it clear that she was not wearing a bra, then it would not have been an issue.

From the article:

"By Juvik’s (the teen's) own admission, she and her friends often go to school bra-less, but she was only addressed by administration this one time."

There may have been more to this issue than simply not wearing a bra. She and her friends in the past may have been wearing a top in which her breasts may not have been visible. It is unclear, but there is the possibility that her top was partially translucent in the incident in which the administration objected. A thin shirt can become partially translucent under certain conditions, such as being exposed to moisture, which may occur when a person is sweating.

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Why should she have to

That's a different conversation. I pointed out that she wasn't "unfairly discriminated against for not wearing a bra", she was addressed for inappropriate choice of attire. You responded with a non-sequiter about "reading the article". When I pointed out that that the article agreed with what I said, you have changed your argument.

If you want to argue that women shouldn't have to cover her nipples or wear a bra, then lets have that conversation. It's a different conversation though.

Men don't have to cover their nipples or wear a bra.

Really? Is that so?

How many boys are shirtless in school during class? Are you sure that they don't get called to the principal's office and told to cover up? Or perhaps they don't get the dignity of private upbraiding and get publicly told to get a shirt on or face significantly more serious punishment immediately? You hold a point of view that is completely wrong. Boys would be subject to more censure, not less for the same offense.

How about in the wider realm of social interaction. Do men get away with wearing less clothes in public than women in general? Let's see, work environments? Nope, women have significantly more and skimpier clothing choices. Social events? Nope, again women have more and skimpier clothing choices.

SO, really, you are picking on that men can go shirtless in hot weather at the beach, or on the side of the road, so to speak.

You know what? Women already have this right in many states and provinces. Socially, women are likely to experience greater censure for that behaviour sure. That's a societal inequality that is worth addressing. Someone being socially ostracized and shamed for exercising a right that we recognize as valid should be addressed.

That isn't what happened in this case though. She was dressed inappropriately for the environment she was in and already had greater leeway of acceptable clothing than the males in the same environment.

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[–]hork23 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Is facial hair considered indecent? Can beards be sexually stimulated? You already knew the answer so why did you draw that particular comparison? Ah, it's because you wanted to be dishonest. If it's all about attraction then we ought to cover feet and hands because people get off on those too. We don't because of more reasons than just the category of sexual characteristics.

One example being the likelihood of people being sexually stimulated by beards and feet is rather small so we generally don't have a problem with those things being shown. A woman flashes her tits, what's the thing most people think of? A man flashes his beard... is that even a thing?

I mentioned breasts specifically because most men and women consider them sexual in nature which is why they are put into a separate category, just as butts generally are.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Is facial hair considered indecent? Can beards be sexually stimulated?

Can male nipples be sexually stimulated? Absolutely. So why shouldn't men have to wear bras too?

You already knew the answer so why did you draw that particular comparison? Ah, it's because you wanted to be dishonest. If it's all about attraction then we ought to cover feet and hands because people get off on those too. We don't because of more reasons than just the category of sexual characteristics.

You yourself said that because breasts are sexual because they're secondary sex characteristics. Do you also admit that men's facial hair is sexual because it's a secondary sex characteristic?

One example being the likelihood of people being sexually stimulated by beards and feet is rather small so we generally don't have a problem with those things being shown. A woman flashes her tits, what's the thing most people think of? A man flashes his beard... is that even a thing?

No one here is flashing their tits. Are you confused about what article you're reading?

[–]hork23 -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"So why shouldn't men have to wear bras too?"

I already answered that, "I mentioned breasts specifically because most men and women consider them sexual in nature which is why they are put into a separate category." In which breasts refer specifically towards those owned by women. I know I didn't spell that out but it looks like my assumptions of your intelligence were wrong or that you are trying to be obtuse on purpose.

"You yourself said that because breasts are sexual because they're secondary sex characteristics."

They are not sexualized because they are secondary sex characteristics, stop putting words in my mouth. They are sexualized and secondary sex characteristics.

"Do you also admit that men's facial hair is sexual because it's a secondary sex characteristic?"

I already answered this question, "A woman flashes her tits, what's the thing most people think of? A man flashes his beard... is that even a thing?" Considering this to be a troll attempt or just incompetence, not sure which yet.

"No one here is flashing their tits."

I made a hypothetical scenario, which ought to be obvious by my next example of flashing one's beard but again my message is lost due to your stupidity or disingenuous argumentation.

"Are you confused about what article you're reading?"

Are your comments quoted directly from the article? I'd guess not, so I'm reading what you yourself are writing which also means I'm responding that. If I wanted to respond to things said in the article then I'd quote the article and make a statement in this post while not putting my statement in response to yours which might cause confusion to those with deficient I.Q. or less than honest intentions. It seems I have failed though to make myself clear to what or who I am responding to but let me correct this.

Dear /u/VodkaKitty,

I find your attempts of discussion in this thread to be amusing for its lack of arguing in good faith. I have seen a few similar scenarios of like-minded people, many of which has the individual throwing out one topic after another (a distraction technique usually called red herrings or such) and never able to stay focused on what people are trying to say especially when the statement said is particularly apt and resulted in refuting the statement which provoked the response. In essence, I am suggesting that you might be what is colloquially called a 'troll', those who engage dishonestly with the intent to provoke, not for meaningful discussion. I say this because you have failed several times at basic reading comprehension, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt concerning a lack of education or intelligence (though my earlier statements before this formal letter mocks you in that possibility) to sufficiently comprehend my statements or ask for clarification if you do not understand. I am unwilling to engage further as I find no benefit from it and I hope that you do understand my sentiments.

Yours Truly,

/u/Hork23

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Title	LOL: Feminist Organizes 'No Bra Day' to Teach Men 'Not to Sexualise Women's Bodies'
Author	EricAllonde
Upvotes	31
Comments	79
Date	June 22, 2016 3:28 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4p8nck/lol_feminist_organizes_no_bra_day_to_teach_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/lol-feminist-organizes-no-bra-day-to-teach-men-not.946901 https://theredarchive.com/post/946901