Men who say they are "happy" to be circumcised sound exactly like the women who say they are happy to be circumcised. So why the double standard? Either it's ok for both genders or it's not okay at all.

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How would you feel about FGM if it were practiced in the US in a clean clinical setting by competent physicians? What if it were just a little trimming of the labia and clitoral hood, not complete removal of either, except in the case of complications, which would happen from time to time, of course. Would you be on the fence about that?

[+]NoobSailboat444 -6 points-5 points-4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I'm making this up, but even the slightest modification to a woman like that has more complications to circumcision. I do have this profound sadness when just thinking about FGM, so I'm trying to let that not get in the way of rationality. I don't have any proof right now, but I would bet that's the case.

Now, some women get work done on themselves because there are parts that are very loose that they want to remove. Every one is different. It doesn't make sense for someone to manually manipulate it on behalf of someone else though.

What I mean by on the fence is that your argument is correct about genial mutilation, but I just don't care that much and I realize it isn't that big of a deal, and I don't think you need to make circumcision that big of a deal in order to argue against it. If you just stick to liberal principles then you should be against involuntary circumcision and mutilation in general. Comparing it to FGM doesn't do anything, and it just becomes a battle of opposing statistics.

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[–]Consilio_et_Animis 13 points14 points15 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It's nothing like FGM...

Sure 😉 Thanks Daddy! "LOL":

Male circumcision causes terrible damage to the male penis, and psychological problems that can last a lifetime. It's no surprise circumcision for purely "medical" reasons in confined to the USA and a few other countries.

In western Europe there is now a growing movement to outlaw it as genital mutilation, on a par with FGM.

Note: The vast majority of these links from reputable scientific journals, with peer-reviewed research.

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well!

Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf

http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection:

http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death):

http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

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I did. Did you read the paper? It's actually really interesting.

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[+]GanjaBunny points 7 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

The purpose of female genital mutilation is to take away her ability to orgasm and feel pleasure. It cuts off her clitoris and inner labia. The female equivalent of male circumcision would only be to cut off her inner labia. The male equivalent of FGM would be to cut off the foreskin AND glans.

[–]POSVT 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Hey now, I said in a previous comment that male circumcision should only be done if the male chooses to when he's old enough. I'm not arguing for circumcision at birth, I'm just saying that male circumcision and FGM are different

[–]NoobSailboat444 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]GanjaBunny points 7 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Just pointing out here that it's not the same. The purpose of female genital mutilation is to take away her ability to orgasm and feel pleasure. It cuts off her clitoris and inner labia. The female equivalent of male circumcision would only be to cut off her inner labia. The male equivalent of FGM would be to cut off the foreskin AND glans.

Circumcision shouldn't be forced but it is needed for medical reasons and that's for the male to decide when he's old enough.

FGM should NEVER be done. It's sole purpose is to remove sexual pleasure.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]GanjaBunny points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

But it's actually needed in some medical cases, like if the foreskin is really tight or pain during sex. There's absolutely no reason to cut off the clitoris unless there's cancer or an untreatable infection

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Foreskin is excess skin? Why is it only circumcised men who say this? It isn't excess skin!

In a typical infant boy, the foreskin is a double-sided sleeve of skin and soft mucosal tissue that completely encloses the glans (the head of the penis). It is actually physically bonded to the infant's glans. This skin contains thousands of blood vessels and specialized nerves. In an adult, it would grow to cover 12-15 square inches. Circumcision removes this part of the penis. The operator forces a metal clamp inside the foreskin, and tears the skin away from the glans. The operator then slices the foreskin down past the glans and cuts the foreskin off. The entire procedure is excruciatingly painful. Infant circumcision is performed without adequate anesthesia, since anesthetizing such a young infant can be very dangerous. Partial or complete amputation of the penis sometimes occurs. Some children even die from the trauma, hemorrhage, or other complications.

Immediately after circumcision, a child is at risk for infection and hemorrhage. The loss of the protective foreskin places him at risk for complications including meatitis (inflammation and ulceration of the urinary meatus), meatal stenosis (constriction of the meatus, resulting in blocked urinary flow and potential infection), preputial stenosis (scarring that constricts the glans), and buried penis (entrapment of the penis by scar tissue). Together, these conditions, which are almost unheard of in non-circumcised males, affect up to 20% of circumcised males and may require additional surgery.

A circumcised male may also experience chafing and abrasion of the exposed glans against clothing, painful erections due to the tightened skin, scarring, and desensitization that can severely reduce enjoyment of sexual activity. A circumcised penis may be significantly smaller than it would otherwise have been. For more information, see the Circumcision Information Resource Center, under "Complications of circumcision."

What is the value of the foreskin?

The foreskin has protective, sensory, biomechanical, and immunological functions. Throughout life, the outer part of the foreskin protects the sensitive inner part of the foreskin and the glans from injury, abrasion, chafing, and infection. The foreskin keeps its mucosal tissue and the glans soft and moist so that it maintains sensitivity. During sexual activity, the foreskin glides up and down over the glans, providing sensation from thousands of specialized nerve endings in the inner foreskin. Parts of the foreskin, including the frenulum (a narrow membrane on the underside of the foreskin) and the ridged band (the edge of the foreskin, between the inner and outer skin), are particularly important in sexual function. See the Circumcision Information Resource Center, under "Foreskin sexual function." Circumcision removes most of the inner and outer foreskin, and destroys these functions.

The foreskin secretes immunological substances that fight infection, called lysozymes, and also produces natural lubricants, reducing the need for artificial lubricants during sex. The presence of the foreskin can enhance the sexual experience for both partners. Polls of women who had experienced both circumcised and uncircumcised partners indicated a strong preference for the latter, with longer duration of coitus and higher rate of orgasm cited as the main reasons (for example, see "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner").

Isn't female circumcision worse than male circumcision?

Female circumcision is typically viewed by people in the U.S. as more horrific than male circumcision because it is usually done under unhygienic conditions rather than in a hospital, and because one form of female circumcision, infibulation, is particularly severe. However, both male and female circumcisions remove functional, normal tissue, cause extreme pain, permanently disfigure the genitals, and permanently damage the sexual response. And in most cultures where female circumcision is performed, male circumcision is also performed with equally unhygienic instruments. Regardless of the child's gender, when done to infants or children, unnecessary genital surgeries violate human rights because they are amputations performed without medical need, and thus cannot have legitimate proxy consent.

The World Health Organization recognizes three types of female circumcision. Type I removes the clitoral hood and/or the clitoral tip. Type II removes the clitoral hood, clitoris, and part or all of the labia. Type III, also known as infibulation or pharaonic circumcision, involves removal of all external female genitalia and suturing of the vaginal opening.

Male circumcision can be compared to type I or II female circumcision. Although the glans is not harmed at the time of circumcision, the loss of protective structures causes it to dry out and lose sensitivity over time. It is also important to note that most of the nerves and pleasure receptors present in the clitoris are, in the male, present in the foreskin and its associated structure, the frenulum. Removal of these nerves constitutes a loss that can be most adequately compared to a partial clitoridectomy.

... You were saying again...?