Misogyny, racism, gatekeeping and hypocrisy have no place in the men's movement

rainbow_bro_bot · 2021-11-10T15:53:00+00:00

The problem I have with the word "misogyny" is it's over-used so much and the meaning is diluted so much it's used by many feminists to basically refer to anything they don't like or if someone has an opinion they don't agree with.

I've been called "misogynist" (and a range of other abusive insults) because my views include circumcision on baby/young boys should be banned unless for medical reasons, and that sex work/prostitution should be decriminalised as opposed to made illegal or partly illegal. Even though I've put my views across appropriately and backed them up with sources feminists would just reply with name-calling.

It depends on the person of course but sometimes debating with feminists just isn't possible. If you don't have the same opinion as they do that automatically makes you a "incel small-penis neanderthal misogynist" or whatever the latest insult is.

Via-18263859 · 2021-11-10T13:38:10+00:00

You can’t police movements, you can only fork them.

sneedchuckfuck · 2021-11-10T14:55:10+00:00

It's a losing battle. When you talk about the misogynists, you will give feminists the ammunition to say "I told you so" and that will be the only thing they will focus on as far as the general idea of men's rights is concerned. Who are you trying to convince here? The feminists? Why would they suddenly give up the idea of patriarchy theory now, just because you want to do something about the misogynists? People have already taken sides. You need to understand that this movement does not exist in a vacuum, and trying to appeal to feminists will never work, you will just end up with another menslib. Besides, if feminists can pull the "<person in a position of power who makes me look bad> is not a real feminist!" card successfully, then there's no reason why we should care about the random men not in a position of power who make MRAs look bad.

tenchineuro · 2021-11-10T15:38:15+00:00

Most of the server is hidden behind a paywall (I don't have a problem with this by the way) but I'm but a poor uni student, so I didn't pay it. I wanted to eventually, but, after what happened I don't think I will (Insert Captain America meme here)

So it's an open free channel and anyone can join, and you assume that everything said there is representative of the MRM?

EviessVeralan · 2021-11-10T16:10:56+00:00

Youre a moderator for r/fragilestraightreddit who are you to lecture anyone about bigotry?

ImperfectDivinity · 2021-11-10T15:19:49+00:00

Nah, I’m good dawg.

philhalo66 · 2021-11-10T15:08:42+00:00

this post reads like "someone was mean to me therefor your group has a problem now fix it you (insert buzzword here)"

i been in this sub for about 2 years and change and the only people i seen doing any of those things is fake mra's (usually feminists coming in to smear our names). check the post history of the ones doing what you claim and im sure you'll see some very clear patterns

typhonblue · 2021-11-10T15:16:39+00:00

The primary reason that you should not police the movement like this is because this is a false accusation. I witnessed this all go down because I am the owner of the server.

One user said women didn't have evolutionary pressure to love men(which is allowed because I promote free speech, I later told him that his statement wasn't accurate.)

Jackie called him and another female user who agreed with him "mentally disabled." The other user called her a foid. She called her an incel and we were off to the races.

This was a case of mutual combat in an area of the server designated PvP. Jackie then played the victim of an exchange of insults she instigated with another female user. I told her this. She is now characterizing me as "defending misogyny."

JackieNaper1907 · 2021-11-10T16:43:31+00:00

i agree that hating on women is bad but you know, is literally impossible to be a white supremacist and an mra, how can you be an ''white supremacist'' as an mra when 90% of males are ''people of color'', but let's face it, the word ''misogyny'' is overused, no one here will be allowed to advocate for violence but some saying ''women are not capable of loving men'' may not necessarily hate women, you made some good points any way, either way is kinda crazy seeing a woman making comments about women like that.

-HawasKaPujari- · 2021-11-10T14:21:10+00:00

You don't get to police the MRM. If you found the comments by few MRAs on discord to be racists then call out them on their racism. Don't tell/"request" other people to behave in certain way just because you don't like it. There is a reason why, MRAs (at-least the majority of them) counter feminism with accurate history and sound reasoning and NOT crying and whining.

Nobody owes anybody anything.

daft_boy_dim · 2021-11-10T13:15:07+00:00

Can we get Tldr please?

throwawayincelacc · 2021-11-10T14:46:47+00:00

These things have no place in the men's movement, and if I'm being honest, they are actually ruining the men's movement.

this is one of the goals of feminism. To constantly attack and beat down men until the point where they lash back. Since they control the media they just cut out all the proof of them pushing men to this point and only show men actually retaliating.

JackieNaper1907 · 2021-11-10T17:27:41+00:00

[permanently deleted]

No-Feedback7437 · 2021-11-10T13:23:01+00:00

I believe that is a assumption that the feminists narrative that they want everyone to believe

typhonblue · 2021-11-10T14:32:34+00:00

You were throwing things around like this:

"I don't give a fuck retard"

In a fight you started by calling two people "mentally disabled". In a channel specifically created for fights. With a known FEMALE troll.

jasonhoblin · 2021-11-10T15:05:13+00:00

"we must do what we can to ensure that this movement remains woman, POC, and LGBT friendly"

No! If women and LGBT are your cause, cool go do that. Fuck you for coming into a movement and saying it should be about something else. Co-opting other causes for their own gain is what feminists do. Not here.

This post is bullshit; a distraction from the topic and a solicitation to a forum. If you want to help men, then do it; stop talking about it.

The-Prim-Reaper · 2021-11-10T19:03:24+00:00

Full disclosure, I'm trying to manage some emotions here around all of this. I don't really expect you to know about it all, but many of the Badgers have been through some serious shit in the last little while, serious family losses and lots of very trying stress. So that being said, I have to be honest when I say I am not happy to see them (especially Alison) now have to deal with a public dragging of their names through the mud because of an incident in a specifically labeled "anything goes" shit flinging thread where everyone is allowed to say whatever stupid shit comes to mind without consequence. Alison and the other badgers are dear friends of mine and I care about them a lot. To say nothing of the fact that technically I am still a Honey Badger too and this therefore implicates me. So yeah, I'm feeling some things that are not good right now, especially considering I also woke up with a sore throat and nearly had a fainting spell due to low blood pressure because of pregnancy hormones. So I am managing some STUFF right now and I'm trying VERY hard so please keep that in mind.

I think this is a REALLY unfair categorization of everything that went down. Now, did Luga say some things that were a bit embarrassing and cringy? She sure did. She has been a self-avowed woman hater for some time now and she has not been shy about this fact. I've even tried to gently challenge her about it when she was on my server for a while. But ultimately she is the way that she is and she never made it a serious concern, so I just let sleeping dogs lie on that one. Sometimes you just have to accept that some people are going to believe things that you don't agree with--even things that you think are reprehensible--and you won't be able to change that. I deal with that with people on the men's issues side of the spectrum, and I deal with that with people on the women's issues side of the spectrum, and all the social justice stuff in between. If I spent my time trying to change the minds of every extremist out there, I would never actually accomplish anything because I'd be using all my energy for change that will never happen. You have to learn how to pick your battles.

ESPECIALLY considering this was all going down in the ONE thread in the entirety of the massive HBR server where they specify that absolutely anything goes without consequence. If Luga was saying this kind of thing outside of this one unmoderated area, she would be told to take it to quarantine or would face consequences. In the reasonable discussion areas, people are expected to keep things relatively, well, reasonable. This is not to say that things don't get heated sometimes, but not nearly to the uncontrolled extent you see in quarantine. Going to the shit fight area and expecting everyone to cater to your sensibilities is like walking into a bullfighting ring wearing a red dress and then complaining about getting charged. Especially when you also start waving your hands around and shouting at it to keep away from you - that's not the way things work in that particular area.

But that being said, BECAUSE this was that kind of area, you can't reasonably go in here and act like this is a true representation of the men's rights movement. This is where everyone goes to behave badly. Because sometimes people just need to say some stupid shit and hey, not everyone uses livejournal. I dunno what to say. But Alison mentioned like 3 or 4 times in the times I was reading the thread (I didn't get through all of it, it was a nearly 12 hour long saga) that it was an unmoderated thread and even she threw pot shots at Luga too.

So going on reddit and posting all of this stuff and ACTING like it is a representation of how the MRM is or even just how HBR is, I'm not a fan of that. That's not fair at all. Just like it's not fair to read the SCUM manifesto and act like just because someone calls themselves a feminist they MUST also agree with that. Alison and the other HBR members (myself included) have worked our honourary bags off for positive change for men, and this really comes across like you dismissing all of that work because one or a couple people were mean to you in a thread specifically designated for exactly that kind of thing. ESPECIALLY when it wasn't even the leaders of the group who were saying the problematic things. And again, the reason Alison wasn't calling it out was because it was the quarantine thread, not because she agreed with it.

Now, you know me, I have made videos challenging what I see as unproductive behaviour in my own movement as well as the other side, and I pride myself in trying to be a moderate voice. But what I DON'T do is tone police or say that the movement is tainted because of the odd person who says some unpleasant things. I also don't hold a prescriptive approach as to how men should or should not behave. Not in order to be happy, not in order to have a successful movement, nothing. I don't think that's my place to do that. Realistically I don't think it's anyone's place to do that. Because 1. what works for some people won't work for others, 2. it assumes that all people work the same way and they don't, and 3. you're more likely to turn people off by telling them how they ought to be rather than trying to understand and work with how they ARE.

Anyway, this has turned into quite the long rant and I'm sorry about that, but I couldn't not say something about all this. I do believe that you want to be able to help people, but respectfully I think you need to work on your boundaries between yourself/your own values and ideals and what you expect from other people. Because that's not always going to be aligned, and if you come into a situation where that's the case and your immediate reaction is to get defensive, things aren't going to work out well.

Panderjit_SinghVV · 2021-11-10T16:06:33+00:00

Incredible.

No gate-keeping but also no (what you consider) ‘misogyny’, and no (what you consider) racism.

The inconsistency is so stark you must be a feminist.

Disastrous-Pace-1929 · 2021-11-10T14:14:31+00:00

If there is one thing that the mens movement can learn from feminism it's not to get bogged down in self diagnosis mode. Feminism doesn't put much effort into policing their more extreme elements and though it's a point of much criticism, it hasn't harmed them overall.

People who are more concerned with 'how the MRM looks' won't accomplish much.

baaddoggie · 2021-11-10T11:57:18+00:00

I’m sorry, but all I hear is ‘I got yelled at online, please follow me’

Rol9x · 2021-11-10T14:11:16+00:00

I always wanted a woman to tell me what the men's movement is all about... Just like the saudis sent a man to the women rights conference.

Danube27 · 2021-11-10T12:19:26+00:00

The reality is that you will get people like that no matter what. People with radical opinions can only see things their way and they will appropriate legitimate movements for themselves, oftentimes without realising that they are a minority in their radical view.

I would just like to end on a positive note. 99% of the people I have met on the MRM have been lovely, supportive, people.

I'd say that's more like 90%. But it's fine. It's natural that not everybody will properly understand what's good for the MRM. Also natural for some simple-minded people to want to turn a debate into a battle. What's important is to not let this movement turn into what mainline feminism has become. Certainly it'd be a shame for the men's rights movement to figuratively end up going long enough to see itself become the villain.

SageBus · 2021-11-10T16:18:53+00:00

Although you raise a few good points, I'm pretty sure you are gatekeeping the movement, my friend.

As for the selfpromotion of your discord, I couldn't care less.

strobro · 2021-11-10T17:55:42+00:00

Woman joins mens' community, makes everything about her and her feelings

azazelcrowley · 2021-11-10T17:55:54+00:00

Prioritizing men being able to express themselves openly takes precedence in a mens movement over policing for misogyny, or you end up with somewhere like Menslib that has banned discussion on several mens issues and does things like invite feminists to tell their user base that if they claim to be abused men they are lying misogynists who hit their wives while simultaneously having a hair-trigger about misogyny and banning men from their reddit for the slightest of infractions due to their paranoic view that "Misogyny has no place here" and making that a value of theirs as opposed to "This is a mens space, first and foremost, and anything that runs counter to that goal must be made secondary to making all men welcome.".

So long as you can see that something is a legitimate expression of a mans perspective, even if you think it is misogynist, you can point it out if it's worth doing so, but it must be allowed here. The alternative is to allow misandrists to stifle discussion through acting in bad faith. Men should not have to second guess themselves and try and make their speech palatable to women in a mens space. This is seperate from acknowledging that more official and public facing representations of the MRM do need to control for that kind of thing.

alway122 · 2021-11-10T15:30:49+00:00

Women coming into men's groups to explain why men's groups need to join the same hegemonic mass as all of the other groups that despise men's rights lmao

If anything, men's rights groups need to establish an intersectionality with pro-life/white/middle class groups. The criticisms made against men by feminism and white people by racism advocates is the same and equally hollow.

SharkSpider · 2021-11-10T14:50:16+00:00

Feminists don't police misandry and man hating within their own movement because they've realized that it's pointless. It makes you look inward to fight about ideological purity rather than outwards to fight for equal rights and to solve actual injustices.

Someone coming here and saying some borderline misogynist shit doesn't cause harm. Unequal rights under the law causes harm. What would you rather spend your time on? Anyone who says you need to address the former before the latter is concern trolling.

167167167abc · 2021-11-10T14:55:09+00:00

Also why the fuck are you promoting your shit here? You as a female shouldn't fight against anything. You better help other men who have already fought against them or may be you can fight against the feminists. There were many women who are anti-feminists. There is even a group called "Women against feminism"

magicalecazam · 2021-11-10T16:17:17+00:00

Aww, look at the little narcissist addicted to the red dots on her phone.

ChrisKolumb · 2021-11-10T16:47:28+00:00

My only question is how much of snowflake you need to be to first lose against troll shitposter at discord server and then crawl back at reddit to create post specifically for whining? That's just i dunno funkopop level of being extremely sensitive. Go back into your safe space.

Doormau5 · 2021-11-10T16:51:39+00:00

This whole post smells like some self-promoting bullshit

imjusthereforresearc · 2021-11-10T12:43:53+00:00

You make reasonable points but I'm not sure I agree.

I am for whatever makes the movement grow. I've tried your way before and it hasn't worked. It could be that the well is permanently poisoned there.

So maybe other strategies are needed.

BladeRunner1998 · 2021-11-10T17:00:29+00:00

You're a trojan horse

OGMol3m4n · 2021-11-10T17:12:20+00:00

OP is a narcissist.

AppleJuicePro · 2021-11-10T18:08:28+00:00

Hang in there.

I'm not entirely convinced the future of the MRM depends on having more women involved but it's good to have strong voices of either sex so I hope you stick around.

I admit I was overly harsh on women in previous comments in the past but it's obvious sliding towards overt misogyny is not going to help the men's movement and those working within it.

Thank you for your efforts, and try to ignore the trolls.

McFeely_Smackup · 2021-11-11T02:14:34+00:00

Seems like an ironic bit of Gatekeeping

167167167abc · 2021-11-10T14:47:48+00:00

I disagree with everything you said.

Misogyny doesn't make men look bad. Who said that it makes men look bad? And who view that as bad? Women? Do you really think men give a bat shit about what women think in 2021? Nobody can make men look bad now. Men have started not caring about how they are viewed by other members of the society.

This is why feminists can't win men anymore.

Let me give you an idea. Do you know why feminism grew and had an impact? It's because men didn't really give a fuck about its growth in the early 60s. It's not because women are powerful that it grew. Now, men don't give a crap about them. Hell, men are not even marrying now and women are panicking now.

Women are actually incapable of love that men think what love is. Most probably, the guy didn't know English well and may wanted to tell this to you and that's right and it doesn't matter if you disagree because why would anyone believe you. People should believe science and this is scientific.

And, I don't understand why he would tell you that you're gatekeeping and shit and that means he is yet to grow a pair of balls because no woman can control the manosphere anymore. Heard about the "Beat the bitch slogan"? Heard that Gillete went down pussy pandering and disrespecting men?

You talk as if you made this MRM group though and stop doing that. You are just one of the many members in the MRM community and you've your opinion but I disagree with that completely.Now, if you think you can hijack the MRM community, spread some feminism here and there and try to change men, it's too late. It's not effective, it won't work. I'll tell you why. I joined MRM so many years ago(This is my fun account) and MRM really concentrated on changing the anti-male rules in India.

They were just a bunch of great guys and let me tell you something. They were too naïve to understand female nature. That's how Redpill was born and guess what, Redpill blew up across the culture and it's the Redpill that actually control the psychic of men, especially young men and not MRM. The MGTOW literally avoided women completely. In Japan, they were called the herbivore men. So do you think MRM controls the culture of young men? NEVER EVER! The Redpill/ MGTOW/ Masculinism(Various factions) would control the mindset.

Guess what? It's working for them and other wise why do you think so many men would join those groups and not MRM? I am in all groups. They are just a bit more scientific. That's it.

Racism, Homophobia has nothing to do with this shit. You made that up probably. The only thing is misogyny and it'll be there and it'll only grow. There is a saying in Redpill - There are no unicorns so I don't think men will believe it.

Misogyny doesn't really mean hating all the women you see but it means hating ALL of the women who has certain characteristics.

I don't really think that as a female you can actually understand men. How can you when your brain and a man's brain is wired entirely differently? May be you can work under some men and help them. I agree with that but I wouldn't consider you serious when you are on your own.

Now, I may get downvotes for this for telling it raw but it doesn't really matter when I have bigger groups where I'd get 10x the upvotes. Either way, I don't care about opinions of others so yeah.

Also, understand that MRM is just a part of Manosphere. There are way more radical groups and so far everything is working but I'd say radical groups are working better because women needs to be taught a lesson and they are just doing it better with actions.

Mediumpace539 · 2021-11-10T11:48:23+00:00

Is this a Troll post?

lugawonshu · 2021-11-10T14:54:04+00:00

It was stated multiple times by myself and possibly others that I am not an MRA so don't pin my behavior on MRAs or the MRM.

You can be mad at me and think i'm shit, that's fine but don't pin this on The Badgers.

Not going to bother to get into a moral fagging contest on Reddit or divulge more details but I and others know what was said.

Christ forbid the world not be rainbows, puppies, and sunshine for people like you.

Hirryu · 2021-11-10T14:55:40+00:00

If this is what this subreddit has become, being lectured about being inclusive, then it has reached it’s end.

Ok-Efficiency1842 · 2021-11-10T14:11:12+00:00

This is why no one takes this movement seriously and fuck anyone who upvoted this trash.

If I was a black slave in the 1840s south, I wouldn't give a fuck what harsh words people had for the plantation owners. That's exactly how men should feel about misogyny. Why should the Jews feel bad that someone called the Waffen SS office inferior or stupid?

Maybe if the Germans didn't spend all their time oppressing and demonizing the Jews, the Jews would be a bit more respectful.

f you oppress a people, send them to jail, get them fired and spew vile hate speech at them, you can't be surprised when they insult you back.

Snek1775 · 2021-11-10T12:44:43+00:00

Fuck off

chrrmin · 2021-11-10T16:51:53+00:00

Ive seen behaviour like this on this very subreddit (not to that extent thank god) and its seriously a problem. We cannot let ourselves get an "us vs them" mentality, we need to include eveyone who wants to help move men rights activism forward, and call out this shitty behavior. Love yall

scyth3s · 2021-11-10T17:33:12+00:00

I have seen people on this sub unironically say women aren't fit to vote... I don't know how we get rid of this sort of shit in the MRM, but we definitely need to make it happen.

UlfarrOT · 2021-11-10T14:46:35+00:00

Thank you. I've seen in this very subreddit some pretty terrible comments. I agree wholeheartedly.

Areebu1 · 2021-11-10T12:23:42+00:00

Damn man, as a Muslim Indian, I felt your comment. There are a lot of them that will constantly preach the woman are inferior spiel, which is complete BS. A lot of bad people (literally all genders btw) have taken advantage and basically used misquoted texts and quotes to justify putting women down, which was never meant to be the case.

cabsmom2020 · 2021-11-10T15:20:23+00:00

I am a woman interested in human rights. It honestly hurts when I read blatant misogynist stuff, especially after dating a pretty dedicated red pill man. SO... the only good in get from that is that I better understand how hurtful misandrist statements can be.

No human deserves to be judged on their gender.

Since so many things are biased against men, in the legal system especially, I can see why men are upset. I can't feel exactly what they feel, but I can relate.

dejour · 2021-11-10T16:00:33+00:00

Absolutely, the MRM should not include racism or misogyny. Good for you to point this out.

TipiTapi · 2021-11-10T15:17:56+00:00

Its selection bias btw.

Not all MRAs are misognysts but most mysognists will actively support MRMs because it gives them a way to 'strike back' at the evil evil women.

malibuflex · 2021-11-10T16:53:37+00:00

I mean when you are raised by a single mother who abused you ever day, you will grow up to hate women, how can that be blamed on the guy when his life was ruined from day one by his mother?

theOverword · 2021-11-10T12:03:53+00:00

Sorry for another person being a piece of garbage

BlackVendaeta · 2021-11-10T17:06:55+00:00

The amount of people in this comment section defending the xenophobes in your story is extremely saddening.

Seriously, their using excuses like "free speech", as if that isnt exactly what certain feminists use to be shitty to men.

Seriously people, OP is calling us to be better, to not be sexist, homophobic, and racist and yall are going "bUt W o M a N". Get over yourselves people. We are supposed to be a support group, not a hate group.

EnvironmentalWar4627 · 2021-11-10T12:34:23+00:00

This post getting so many upvotes and misogynistic comments was really where I decided this sub was not salvageable.

It goes into detail about how 99 percent of women today are terrible.

Basketballjuice · 2021-11-10T14:50:02+00:00

Amen. We have to stick to our ideas of equality, and make sure not to over-correct society.

We can't be like today's feminist movement (in first world countries).

RandyRenegade · 2021-11-10T16:58:29+00:00

Something I feel like I see, and really hope for, is that there's a separation between the old style mras (like 2016) and the new style mras. The old mras were on the same page about the issues men face, but they got caught up with the red pill community and the reactionary anti-sjw community. When these associations happened, instead of distancing from that, it kinda accepted some of the toxic and misogynistic aspects of those groups, and even allowed itself to be a haven for people who don't really care about serious change, but just hate women (they're often called incels). When I hear the term "honeybadger" that's the era of mra that I'm reminded of.

The new era of mra is more like what I've seen in this subreddit, roma army, some smaller channels, and to an extent aba and preach. These groups tend to actually seek out resolution to men's issues, speak out against other forms of discrimination including misogyny, and even accept feminists into their communities. I know this side of the mrm isn't as pronounced (partially because it isn't as useful in slandering us) but I genuinely hope this is the direction that we take in the future.

RabbitFromBrazil · 2021-11-10T15:11:30+00:00

When you are part of a movement, unfortunately you end up being part of the good and the bad side of it. I am not part of a collectivist movement for "men's rights. I, alone, in an individualistic way, fight for men's rights. No movement speaks for me (maybe I can agree in some situations, but only that).

matrixislife · 2021-11-10T15:59:54+00:00

No one here has the right or ability to say "I represent the MRM, you do not", this is gatekeeping along the lines of "real feminists don't do that". We rail against that, so we shouldn't do it ourselves.
If you don't like something someone else is saying, feel free to tell them.

isthebuffetopenyet · 2021-11-10T15:46:28+00:00

TLDR

adam-l · 2021-11-10T15:27:04+00:00

The discussion around the female notion of love is the most thorny one. The answer is indeed evolutionary.

Title	Misogyny, racism, gatekeeping and hypocrisy have no place in the men's movement
Author	JackieNaper1907
Upvotes	293
Comments	268
Date	November 10, 2021 11:14 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qqs40q/misogyny_racism_gatekeeping_and_hypocrisy_have_no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/misogyny-racism-gatekeeping-and-hypocrisy-have-no.1084876 https://theredarchive.com/post/1084876