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Should men have a say in abortion

titanicboi1
December 9, 2020
49 upvotes
/r/MensRights

https://strawpoll.com/b9xessjpb

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Post Information
Title Should men have a say in abortion
Author titanicboi1
Upvotes 49
Comments 56
Date December 9, 2020 1:13 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MensRights
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/should-men-have-a-say-in-abortion.838774
https://theredarchive.com/post/838774
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/k9hnh6/should_men_have_a_say_in_abortion/
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Comments

[–]Minihercules317 18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They shouldn't have an option to force the abortion or stop it, but they should have the option to be relieved of responsibility as a father.

[–]triggerhappypoptarts 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitely

[–]dmbrokaw 32 points33 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

Men can't have input in an abortion decision.

  1. Woman wants abortion, man doesn't - If the man can somehow force a woman to remain pregnant against her will, he's violated her right to bodily autonomy (which is so important to humans that we even respect it after death).

  2. Woman wants abortion, man does too - man's input has no effect on the outcome.

  3. Woman doesn't want abortion, neither does man - man's input has no effect on the outcome.

  4. Woman doesn't want abortion, man does - If the man can somehow force a woman to abort against her will, he's violated her right to bodily autonomy.

I wish there was a realistic way to create equity in reproductive rights, but the impact of reproduction is fundamentally different for men and women and we have to accept that reality.

[–]InvestingBig 48 points49 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Of course there is a way. A man should have abortion rights independent of a woman. He cannot force her to carry a baby obviously. But, he can give up the parental obligation/ rights just like a woman does who aborts.

[–]panconquesofrito 18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My money my choice.

[–]PurpleHawk222 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly.

[–]Diesel-66 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then society ie taxpayers pay for the kid.

So no that's not an option

[–]im_not_a_psychic 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not abortion though. That's just freedom from parental duties. Did people vote yes even though they meant 'freedom from parental duties'? Because imo that's not abortion.

[–]d_nijmegen 6 points7 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I'll settle for the option to put the child up for adoption. And the mother or family members of Both sides can adopt 100% of responsibility.

Better than abortion for the kid. And men aren't trapped anymore. A simple, haha Nope! Is enough.

Kills all incentives for free loading whores.

[–]slayer5934 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe people should stop screwing anyone who walks up and says "Hi" then we wouldn't have as many issues.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I get your point but if a woman doesn't want the abortion and man does, he is legally bound to maintain the kid (most of the time the mother as well). We do not have a say on the abortion but we have to be responsible for the kid, but a woman can abort with or without the consent of the father. Basically we should have a say and it should be legally accepted or we have 0 responsability even if the kid is born, it cannot be both ways for women

[–]Oncefa2 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"The courts have properly determined that a man should neither be able to force a woman to have an abortion nor to prevent her from having one, should she so choose. Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."

-- Karen DeCrow, President of N.O.W. 1974-1977

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/09/magazine/l-no-headline-123813.html

[–]craigmunday 16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Picking up on one of your points about bodily automony:

1) men are routinely denied the basic human right to bodily automony. One example is how men's bodies are forced into war. Still to this day countries have a male only draft

2) infant male circumcision is still far too common in most countries. In fact the first lesson a male learns of how " consent" works is when he had a healthy part of his penis amputated because his mother "consented" to that happening to him.

3) governments have been classifying "refused to use condom" as a form of sexual abuse, mainly against women. This is a clear attack on men's bodily automony. Whatever happened to His Body His Choice? Whether a man wants to wear a condom or not is totally up to him. Whether a woman wants to consent to his decision is totally up to her.

[–]dmbrokaw 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

  1. I agree completely, but pointing out that there are situations where men's rights to bodily autonomy get violated does not mean we should also deny women that right. Two wrongs don't make a right.

  2. I'm vigorously opposed to infant male circumcision, and educated my wife on the subject prior to the birth of our son, who remains intact until and unless he decides to modify his body in some way.

  3. I am not familiar with this but I believe I would generally agree, assuming both parties consent before hand to go bareback.

[–]Input_output_error 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely, but pointing out that there are situations where men's rights to bodily autonomy get violated does not mean we should also deny women that right. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It seems to me that bodily autonomy isn't really that highly regarded when it is seemingly okay to not honor male bodily autonomy.

​

I'm vigorously opposed to infant male circumcision, and educated my wife on the subject prior to the birth of our son, who remains intact until and unless he decides to modify his body in some way.

You being against something doesn't make it none existent. As i've stated in the first bit, society doesn't seem to care much about this concept of bodily autonomy when it concerns males.

​

I am not familiar with this but I believe I would generally agree, assuming both parties consent before hand to go bareback.

Where is his bodily autonomy now? Why does this need to be something both parties agree on? What happened to 'his body, his choice'?

Removing a condom is considered to be rape however, not taking anti conception isn't considered rape neither is sabotaging condoms. Hell, according to most western countries men can't even be raped! How does this all jive with bodily autonomy?

And what about pregnancy? Where is a man's bodily autonomy in this? Everyone is always so quick to point out how this man who got this woman pregnant had sex, so he shouldn't complain about the consequences, regardless of what they are. Apparently having said 'yes' to having sex is also saying 'yes' to becoming a parent, at least when you are a man of course.. If the choice of having sex is also the choice of becoming a parent then there is no need for abortions, right? Didn't she choose to have sex too? If this choice resulted in her becoming pregnant, isn't that a choice she made?

I mean, sure, having random relations without using protection is stupid but that doesn't erase the problem of males not having bodily autonomy in all these cases. To me its fairly simple, either everyone is able to wield the bodily autonomy card in our reproductive cycle or no one should. Right now it is just one party who can rely on their bodily autonomy, men simply do not have any, so we should be given these rights or we should just do away with the whole concept.

Two wrongs may not make one right, but as many wrongs as we have here surely do make a point.

[–]craigmunday 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the reply, I have a couple of points for consideration:

  1. Controversially, I question whether bodily automony is an absolute right. Consider a country being subjected to an invading force, isn't it right that both men and women are expected to fight for the sovereignty of their country and protection of its citizens? Also consider the case of a woman who is drinking alcohol while pregnant. Is it still Her Body Her Choice, or does society have an obligation to intervene so the unborn child is protected from the harm she is causing it?

[–]Input_output_error 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Controversially, I question whether bodily automony is an absolute right.

Exactly! This is the right question to ask! And to add to this comment, where is the male bodily autonomy when concerning pregnancy and rape?

Somehow it is okay to use a males sperm to become pregnant against the mans wishes. The reason sited is always "because its not part of his body anymore". Well then, i would like to see someone running away with a finger tip that used to belong to someone else and can be reattached. Lets see how that pans out, its no longer attached to their bodies, so its no longer theirs, right!?

[–]Mode1961 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are many other examples as well. Drugs, suicide (in some countries), forcing men to work to supplement the mother's decision, the draft, forcing men to work after a divorce to pay for alimony, and by forcing I mean under the threat of prison.

[–]Mode1961 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's the problem, there are body autonomy issues with men as well as the man will be forced under threat of prison to supplement another person's decision for the next 18 - 25 years. This man can/will be forced to work and hand over a percentage of this income to that person, the mother.

Here is another situation where the government and society at large don't give two shits about body autonomy.

Let's look at boxing or MMA, a brutal sport(s) in which the participant is subjected to a brutal training routine for months and months and then enters a ring and fights to make a living. After the fight he gets paid, his wife has at the very least 50% control (and sometimes more) legally over that money, in fact in a divorce she could get MORE than 50%, where is the body autonomy in this.

[–]SBtroutbum 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

What about the child? Does a child ever have any rights in the womb? Can we abort at 9 months or at the time of birth?

[–]dmbrokaw -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Children don't exist in wombs. Prior to birth they're called fetuses, or zygotes depending on development.

In any case, the fetus cannot use the woman's body without her consent.

[–]SBtroutbum 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So at 9 months, she can abort (kill) the 9 month fetus and the man has no recourse in your view?

[–]dmbrokaw 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If the fetus is viable outside the womb it would make more sense to deliver than abort, but I don't believe I have the authority to make that decision and force it on a woman.

Also, in virtually all cases late term abortions are due to life threatening circumstances or fetal non-viability. Women who are 9 months pregnant don't just randomly decide to get an abortion like they're getting a pedicure.

[–]Swimfan3 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Until one day in the future of medical science: “I will carry the child, though I do not know the way. “

Your grandfather: “I will help you bare this responsibility, as long as it is yours to bear”

Your Father: “If by my life or money, I can help you and this child, I will. You have my my unconditional help.”

Female friend who is/was pregnant: “You have my support and number so please call if there’s anything you feel that you don’t know”

Friends: “If you need help just axe.”

[–]Neko404[🍰] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Should men be part of that discussion? Yes of course. Though ultimately? No. Wether she keeps the child or aborts the final decision is hers. With that being said, he should have the option to opt out if she decides to keep the child.

[–]obligatoryclevername 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't reasonably expect someone to be an incubator for a child they don't want. I do expect the same right to walk away from a pregnancy I don't want without having the state force me to pay for it. I'm not asking for the right to literally kill someone. I'm asking for the right to walk away, just as women can do.

[–]Greg_W_Allan 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Given that boys have been forced to pay child support to women who raped them I would gladly give those boys the right to force an abortion upon the rapists.

[–]Stardread1997 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

should women vote?

[–]titanicboi1[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah they want

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No

[–]Stardread1997 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

im just saying, if women want to keep forcing themselves into men's world, should they not be willing to allow us to do the same? They shouldnt have downvoted you

[–]Ben_dover194 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes

[–]headoftheasylum 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would need more information before answering. Is the man willing to take parental and financial responsibility for the child or is he abandoning the woman and infant? Was the child a result of rape or incest? It's the man willing to raise the infant on his own? Is the woman willing to raise the infant on her own? It's the pregnancy endangering the mother?

[–]Stardread1997 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

On a real note here. Us men cannot, no, will not tie women up to force them to not kill kids. Even our own. We are not their jailers. As much as we might love our child(ren), there's just no way we could bring ourselves to force something like this. The reason men dont have a say in abortion is because that is how women want it. There is little to no reason to kill a child these days, since adoption is an option for a women to opt out of responsibility. There IS an imbalance. But I can't think of a way to right it. The best I can think of is, while the woman aborts parenthood, she must agree to become unable to bear more children. Us men are too weak to force the law on them for murder. We cannot bring ourselves to do much of anything about this situation. But in my opinion, if a woman really sees so little value in life that she carries and nurtures, she shouldnt be allowed to do so anymore.

[–]DebateAI 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ban abortion, but allow the 3 exception.

Financial and social help to people who want to raise a child but need help.

Universal, and unilateral parenthood forfeiture.

All problems solved. Fetal lives are saved, vast majority of instances (like financial reasons for it) are eradicated, parenthood is only wanted for now.

Done.

[–]IPokeFunAtMyself 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have two daughters and loving wife, but tell them this is where any feminism argument fails miserably. If you are pro choice the simply advocate for no such thing as fathers rights, role, or obligation in raising children. No family courts, no child support, and mother has full say in rearing of the child.

I don't support such an argument but it would be consistent with only a woman's choice and being independent. I would respect the other person's opinion more too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If men had a say in abortion, that would be so much for women to complain about. They would claim people are forcing her to remain pregnant against her will, blah blah blah.

[–]DrainageSpanial 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I sympathize but can't see how that'd be doable.

[–]BigbillybadJohn 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Im against abortion, but yes.

[–]NarrowLiterature7322 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, but if she decides not to have one the father should get to sign away rights

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think that although the man should have some say, it is 75% the woman's decision since she is the one growing a child in her uterus. I advocate for it mainly in cases of rape and incest. I believe the more consensual and monogamous the sex was, then the bigger of a say the man has in the abortion.

I believe men should have the opportunity to bail as well, but only if they do so with good intentions. For instance if a man was raped and ended up impregnating her as a result, he should be able to bail. If the woman cheated on him and got impregnated by the other guy, he should be able to bail. If he was coerced into impregnating her he should be able to bail.

But if it is his child and the sex was consensual then he shouldn't be able to bail.

[–]Oncefa2 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

But if it is her child and the sex was consensual then she shouldn't be able to get an abortion or put the child up for adoption.

You seem pretty reasonable and thoughtful in your comment, but just consider for a second the gender reversed scenario.

Under no circumstance is a woman ever forced to become a parent against her will.

It should therefore be the exact same way for men.

That's what equality and fairness looks like.

The only caveat I'd bring is if the man consented to be a parent with the mother. For example when a husband and wife discuss plans to have a child together. It is not fair for the man to say "yes I'll be there for you" and then bail. It's also really not fair for a woman to get pregnant under the assumption that she bring it to term only to abort it later (for example if she gets mad at the father and decides to take it out on the child).

In either situation though, if you have a child born from consent (meaning consent to parenthood not just to sex), then both parents should be held liable for supporting the child.

Without that consent though, men should be able to walk away with no strings attached. This is exactly what we already allow women to do so I no reason why we can't extend this right to men.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's exactly what I mean by "if the sex was consensual" consent to being a parent is lumped under that umbrella.

[–]Oncefa2 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

consent to being a parent is lumped under that umbrella

Do you believe this is also true for women, or is it only true for men?

What that is, is an argument against abortion rights.

If you're pro-life then it makes you consistent but if you're pro-choice it makes you sexist.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is true for both.

I think both abortion and bailing on the kid should be legal, but they shouldn't be used lightly.

Neither the man nor the woman should be able to abort responsibility just because they feel like it.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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