The idea that women are "bigger victims" than men is a harmful, antiquated gender norm that promotes toxic ideas in society

t_omar79 · 2020-12-27T20:34:36+00:00

If any feminist wants to see the bogus “patriarchy” in full swing, tell them to visit their local family court and attend any case where the father is the defendant.

Eleutherlothario · 2020-12-27T17:35:50+00:00

As soon as you start discussing which group is harmed more, there is a tacit agreement that it matters. It doesn't.

Help those who need it. Period.

ViccIsThicc · 2020-12-28T01:34:47+00:00

To add

It especially sucks how feminists play both sides. Sometimes we are the 'victim' - we are are delicate flowers that get so horrible offended if magazines such as dare to feature better looking people than us but other times it's "WOMEN ARE BADASS AND I CAN DO ANYTHING A MAN CAN 10x BETTER". It's a double standard.

[Edit]: This is the 70th comment breaking the 69 :(

RoryTate · 2020-12-27T18:41:09+00:00

The antiquated idea that women's lives are more valuable or important is indeed one of the most confining "benefits" of being female. This idea is arguably the primary reason that women were coddled (note: not oppressed) throughout much of human history. Society understood that many of the jobs and professions that existed were stressful, time-consuming, difficult, and even dangerous, and thus sought to "protect" women from them and make sure they had a much more leisurely life (through discouraging them from pursuing such careers, and other social sanctions like "you'll end up a lonely spinster if you try to go to college"). The same thing happens even today when you consider the way many women in top positions have to be treated with kid gloves, and can't be criticized or held accountable for their mistakes. People are highly respected for the adversity they have overcome, not the titles they are given without merit. And women in general will unfortunately be forever unable to gain that perception of expertise and authority until society can shed the idea of "women first" when it comes to prioritizing human lives.

If women are so much more important than men, then they will simply continue to be coddled and catered to, just like a spoiled child. However, if one day they can be seen as human beings – no different from men – rather than precious wombs that need protection, then they lose that automatic concern for their safety and comfort, but they can gain the much greater respect and command of fully realized adults.

They have to choose one though, because they can't have both.

2020-12-28T00:02:51+00:00

The idea that victim status can be attached to groups of people is what's harmful and antiquated.

AmuseDeath · 2020-12-28T01:51:31+00:00

The issue is that both women and men are biased towards women's concerns. The solution isn't to have it 100% the other way, but rather more towards the middle. It's going to require people to actively monitor their thoughts and behaviors to stop their pro-women bias and instead treat them as you would treat a man. The issue is that women are more desirable in today's society over men, which causes men to fight over scraps instead of uniting in brotherhood.

mhandanna · 2020-12-28T00:00:55+00:00

HELPING A FEMINIST ECONOMICS STUDENT OUT:

So in summary its about me helping out a feminist in economics do her research on inequality (she wasn't doing it on women btw, just inequality in genera and we were focusing on retirement. Basically despite compared to women, men in her country get TEN years less in retirement AND have to work FIVE years MORE to even get any retirement at all (men retire 65, women 60)... Her SOLE conclusion: The pension system and retirement overall ONLY oppresses women and is structurally sexist to women. Ironically, earlier in essay she talks about how time discriminates women as women work 1 hour more per week if you add up paid and unpaid labour (this is spurious but oft repeated claim, many studies show otherwise).... yet seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that men would have TEN full years less retirement, and this unlike personal choice (how much I work, how much I do unpaid labour) was actually MANDATED by state (I.e. men HAVE to work 5 years longer and the system also sets men retirement age as longe EVEN though they live 5 years less, so if anyone is being discounted agains for time, its men, and in those case structurally and obviously..... compared to more roundabout/stretching explanations she gave for why women doing more unpaid labour is actually women being discriminated against and not their choice)

________________________

Now coming back to your reponse, I think you have done something similar to the feminist I helped in her paper. Yes what you said above is true. My opinion is violence affects men and women in different ways. Overall yes statically no doubt men face more violence, but Im not going to paint is men only victims of this. Im not painting anything in fact, and Im not using idealogical framworks like patrichy to explain things. Im using normal social sciences way of looking at this. The only person doing the one gender is biggest victim is you, but in reverse i.e your ironically saying women are the only victims or biggest victims of violence, and violence against women is a special category. (despite violence against women being a minority form of violence)....However, the primary victims of violence are men. No question. Murder, kidnap, beatings, hate crimes, homophobic attacks, torture, unlawful arrest, political prisoners, police killings, child prisoners.... it goes on and one....murder rate is around 10x more than the only way you can say women are bigger victims of violence, is if you use a microscope and exclude all other forms of violence and look at one area.... sexual assault.... then claim that sexual assault is the biggest and worst of all, and hence women are most affected by violent crime.

The second thing you have to make women most affected hashtag is to say you know what the only violence that matters is cross gender. See below:

Method 5: Only count cross-gender violence.

If you compare only rates of woman-on-man violence with man-on-woman violence, you end up with the impression that women are much more likely to face violence. But it’s hardly acceptable to ignore the large category of man-on-man violence, because it’s not like an act of violence is “cancelled out” if the perpetrator and the victim share the same gender. Men face violence at equal or higher rates than women. The fact that the perpetrator is usually another man hardly lessens the impact. Interestingly, I’ve seen a similar method of focusing on cross-race violence used by white nationalists. Although black people generally face higher levels of violence, they focus on the fact that black-on-white crime is more common than white-on-black crime. Here’s an example from American Renaissance, an online white nationalist blog/magazine.

Going back to a topic from the previous section (Method 4), one point that could be raised here is that if most violence experienced by men is committed by men, doesn’t that rule out it being “because of their gender” in the sense of bias? The answer is no. Most people understand how women or black people can internalize negative biases against their own group, so why couldn’t men internalize negative biases against their own group?

Method 6: Victim-blame. Make assumptions and use stereotypes to portray male victims as less sympathy-worthy, or not really victims at all.

An example would be dismissing men’s higher rate of being murdered by describing a typical male victim as someone who “just” makes bad decisions and associates with drug dealers. This would be like dismissing women’s higher rate of being murdered by a partner by describing a typical female victim as someone who “just” makes bad decisions and dates drug dealers.

This isn’t an assertion that it’s inherently wrong to evaluate a crime’s severity based not just on the effect but also on the victim’s actions or choices and how “innocent” they were. How comfortable you are with that is up to you, and it’s not a topic that will be addressed here. The point here is that we need to be consistent. If it’s not acceptable to do to female victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, or intimate partner murder, then it’s also not acceptable to do to male victims of physical assault, murder, and robbery. If the thought of doing it to women shocks you then you shouldn’t do it to men. And if you don’t have a problem doing it to men then you do that with the understanding that you’re opening it up to be done to women too.

The reason inconsistency is a concern is because of traditionalist stereotypes of agency and the idea that “men do things and women have things done to them”. The implication of male hyperagency and female hypoagency here is that violence against men is more easily seen as something the man brings on himself while violence against women is seen as more “pure” victimhood.

Excellent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eqYEVYZgdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w__PJ8ymliw

______

In summary IMO it is an incredibly gynocentric way and narcissistic way that feminism views the world.... only in terms of women.... I think that is the point she sums up really well in the video (), in fact thats the whole point of the video women are oppressed and men are privelged because it is incredibly gynocentric and narcissistic way of viewing things.

And society is gynocetnrtic which allows this.... and this is the feminist lie

_________

Thanks for response, I'l reply later. To go with my reply:You said: 'Women do have it worse on average'citation needed. In what way? I am of the opinion men and women have issues and privileges. You are consistently, nahhh women only opressed (I dont even think men and women are oppressed either)What key metrics? List the specific metrics areas of life? And why are those female metrics worse for women than the metrics that affect men?Life expectancy? Retirement age: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_in_Europe Years in retirement? Educational attainment? Freedom from disease? Homelessness? Being victim of violent crime? Suicide? Much longer working lives,Hard, gruelling jobs, death at work? work outside, work at heights? longer commutes, relocation for work?Be specific? Pretty sure ALL points above are worse for men as a class? No?So what points?For me its been:Female reproductive biology and genitals - but that is biology not society. It is huge huge thing though.Fear of crime (despite being far less likely to be a victim of crime - but certainly women are more afraid of crime)I could say more, but I am talking about key metrics.... health, education, etc. even saying fear of crime was pushing it a bit IMO

IoSonCalaf · 2020-12-27T17:53:39+00:00

With women, everything is a competition and only the winner gets validation. So in their mind, if you haven’t suffered as much or faced as much adversity as them, then they win and they get to be the only ones who get to complain or get compensated in some way.

But pain, grief, suffering, and having problems aren’t competitions. Just because one person thinks they have it worse, doesn’t mean the other person can’t feel pain or be suffering, etc.

By that logic, only one person on earth out of the entire human population gets to complain, feel pain, suffer, etc. But it makes perfect sense in a woman’s mind for some reason (women logic I suppose? I never understood it myself) and they wield it like a weapon even though it’s a logical fallacy.

Ok-Wing-9951 · 2020-12-28T05:22:21+00:00

Men are the "bigger victims" of suicide. I don't see anyone doing anything about that.

Mythandros · 2020-12-28T06:26:05+00:00

Women are not bigger victims. They are generally more entitled and like to see themselves as victims but anyone with an ounce of common sense sees through that with relative ease.

FeckinOath · 2020-12-28T07:17:33+00:00

I just walked past a domestic abuse poster not so subtly implying that men as a whole are abusers.

The hotline and website aren't directed at victims, just perpetrators.

TheBananaKing · 2020-12-28T15:22:48+00:00

Imagine being told that your rape doesn't matter because not many people like you get raped.

2020-12-28T09:54:27+00:00

I think feminism is toxic.

EvilLothar · 2020-12-27T18:40:28+00:00

What if, now hear me out.... what if we actually don't want to talk about harmful gender norms because we're not feminists and don't buy into that bullshit they spew?

The minute you start to buy into their feminist talking points, you lose.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

-Mark Twain

yoitsericc · 2020-12-28T00:10:57+00:00

Men are only victims because of PATRIARCHY.

-Cyber_Renaissance · 2020-12-27T17:01:45+00:00

It's why we have a "women first" attitude pretty much everywhere, including in discussions about equality and gender norms.

Look how beloved Karen Strahgan is here. Meanwhile, Paul Elam is neither appreciated nor liked in here. She's inactive otherwise, I would've asked her if she knows how much attention she gets because of her gender and how ironic it is.

She gained traction when we first saw her in r/videos, Do you really think a man would have gained as much popularity as her? Me neither!

westoast · 2020-12-28T08:39:51+00:00

Yeah, and even making this argument really pisses people off for some reason. Really frustrating.

ZMaiden · 2020-12-28T07:45:25+00:00

This guy at work today, late 50s, cornered a 16 year old kid in a cooler, yelling at him saying “you wanna go?!l” cause the kid was a little snippy to him. Thank god for an older woman who just would not have that, yelling at him that this is a kid back off. If the kid had been a teenage girl? Hell would have broken loose, managers would have been all over this guy. But because he’s a male teen, just some soft coaching. I’m hella pissed. I want this kid to call HR, this guy literally said “he’s not talking like a child he’s talking to me like a Man!” When we said he’s just a child back off. Straight up if he’d done the same thing to me, an older female, I could get his ass fired for harassment. He cornered the kid in a walk-in fridge, he had no where to go while this adult screamed at him. And I know unless I make a fuss nothing is going to happen because it was a teen boy.

TheGameMaster115 · 2020-12-27T19:41:00+00:00

We are all equally victims to society.

GoelandAnonyme · 2020-12-27T23:44:27+00:00

What do you mean by a bigger victim?

babybabybabybabyblue · 2020-12-27T23:15:46+00:00

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GyratingPollygong · 2020-12-28T08:47:05+00:00

I agree, but I don't think we're going to be able to change the mindset. The fact that women are physically smaller on average, combined with the increased tendency for neuroticism and reduced aggression, means that women are always going to be less successful than men as a whole. They're also going to be seen as more vulnerable to victimization, or as experiencing more victimization, the former being a result of lack of size and aggression, and the latter being a result of neuroticism and increased likelihood to complain of victimization whether or not it is actually happening at a higher rate than to their male peers.

Even if women are experiencing negative events at the same rate as men, these factors come together to give us the perception that women have it worse. Then our societal perception reinforces the belief that women have it worse, which perpetuates the negative feedback loop, leading to the hysteria we have now.

One of my classmates is afraid to walk two blocks in broad daylight without being on a phone call in case she gets abducted. When I explained that she should try not to let social media scare her into thinking this is normal, a bunch of other women butted in quoting statistics that, while accurate as far as I could tell, prove how rare the type of assault or abduction she is afraid of is.

It's like with covid deaths. 200,000+ deaths sounds terrifying. I get why everyone wants to castrate a figurehead like Trump for a number like that. But when you measure those deaths against recorded infections, and against the population of the country, it puts them into a much more reasonable perspective. It's still not nice, but it's nowhere near as scary as when you're comparing that number to, say, the population of your city or state.

The use of statistics and data to perpetuate the belief of female victimization is the same problem.

LondonLunatic91 · 2020-12-27T17:59:03+00:00

I agree because a victim mentality being drummed into women ultimately holds them back. However, if we're talking specifically about domestic violence and sexual violence against women, women literally are the bigger victims. Are you saying they're not?

In the year ending March 2019, an estimated 2.4 million adults aged 16 to 74 years experienced domestic abuse in the last year (1.6 million women and 786,000 men). -

from:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/domesticabuseinenglandandwalesoverview/november2019

Also:

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims
3.1% of women (510,000) and 0.8% of men (138,000) aged 16 to 59 had experienced a sexual assault in the last year.

- from:

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence

Zoiddburger · 2020-12-27T21:47:07+00:00

Actually, we are addressing OP's post about victims, not what type of victim...or have you forgotten? (Wow, how embarrassing). OR do you already know the outcome so you don't even want to try to copy/paste articles because you know there are not any studies stating that women are the majority of violent offenders?

Zoiddburger · 2020-12-27T23:04:12+00:00

I actually amended to memorize those. Shocker! If it disgusts you, Rafi usually stays in your mind brain. #theleague

Zoiddburger · 2020-12-27T19:08:11+00:00

May I just inquire which gender perpetuates the most violence? Because that is a major flaw in this argument.

Title	The idea that women are "bigger victims" than men is a harmful, antiquated gender norm that promotes toxic ideas in society
Author	Oncefa2
Upvotes	1816
Comments	147
Date	December 27, 2020 4:33 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	/r/MensRights
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-idea-that-women-are-bigger-victims-than-men-is.837368 https://theredarchive.com/post/837368
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/kl6ii5/the_idea_that_women_are_bigger_victims_than_men/

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