the whole "alpha" "beta" thing when applied to humans really grinds me

hmlaasanen · 2015-01-02T22:07:17+00:00

In Finland we don't use the alpha/beta theory, instead we use "The level theory of men".

I agree, the alpha/beta theory is flawed in some ways, as in human populations there usually are no clear alphas. Many successful ladies men are no alphas by any means.

PL0XPL0XPL0X · 2015-01-02T23:11:15+00:00

[permanently deleted]

PM_ME_UR_PLANTS · 2015-01-02T23:02:19+00:00

It's pretty similar to how women fat and fashion shame each other. They know what men like in general, and use that when they communicate with people in general in such a was as to show other women as unfit.

When men (and as far as I can tell it is mostly men) talk about alpha/beta, it's because they know how women in general pick mates, and how to use that to compete with other men when they communicate.

You can not like it, but as longer as there are general trends in what the sexes find attractive that are relevant to human legacy, it isn't going anywhere.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2015-01-03T02:39:36+00:00

I agree with you.

However the concepts have value in describing how most people think. Traditional notions of masculinity are hierarchical and encourage pack-animal behaviour. If we want to correctly understand the challenges men face we'll have to acknowledge this.

This doesn't mean that "alpha" men are in fact superior. Indeed, some Red Pillers seem to argue that "alpha" men are dangerous and unstable, and that society and civilization are really the products of "beta" men.

I do agree that the Macho Dominance Hierarchy is a bad thing, its absolutely "toxic masculinity" (to use feminist's terms), it turns men against each other and makes them easier to control/shame/regulate. It justifies bullying and vindictiveness as biologically ordained. It turns men into subhuman brutes. But we need to have some terms around, some concepts, in order to analyze it properly.

due to issues during my childhood I have trouble trusting people and I am usually quiet as a result of this, I have low self confidence and very little luck finding a partner - this however makes me no less of a man than somebody successful

Well of course you're not less of a man in fact. But remember that "real manhood" (tm) is a socially-conferred status. Socially, you are not a "real man" and nor am I. Nor are most people here frankly.

But fuck social status. Fuck society and fuck their judgment. Live for yourself, by your own values and standards. "Real manhood" is just a control mechanism... people who want to be "real men" are (metaphorically) people who want to wear a spiked leash and collar because it makes them "look badass" but in doing so they surrender their self-sovereignty/cognitive independence.

I happen to believe that thinking for yourself and making your own decisions is the faculty which separates humans from animals. "Real manhood" is thus dehumanizing. What's more important - living up to society's expectations or controlling your own life?

What is genuinely more worthy and admirable?

ThePigmanAgain · 2015-01-02T21:23:39+00:00

The whole "alpha" thing is a total joke. Even among wolves it's not a matter of superiority, it's a matter of starting your own pack by having pups and then telling them that mom and dad are the "alphas"! Amongst humans it's even more hilarious, given how many kings and presidents throughout history have been nothing but puppets for counselors, advisers and vice-presidents! As soon as someone utters the word "alpha" in regards to something as devious and complex as the human animal i know i am dealing with a fool.

Edit: "but puppets" replaces "for puppets". Fuck.

King_Achelexus · 2015-01-02T22:35:48+00:00

I think it's just a way to turn men against each other by making them want to be "better" than other men, what we're seeing happen right now is men giving up on these outdated notions and sticking up for each other equally.

The_Red_Puke · 2015-01-02T22:15:30+00:00

Don't make much of it. It's just Red Pill language used by PUAs (Pick-Up Artists), who are actually women's pawns. PUAs use it to shame other men and make themselves feel superior. Their constant need to shame others actually reveal their own insecurities and they are trapped in this endless cycle of repeating that behavior. They love to brag about how they can pick up women easily but shouldn't everyone know by now that internet bragging is worthless? Most of them brag for ego and some of them brag to sell books or seminars. FOLLOW THE MONEY and you will see the motives

2015-01-03T04:22:41+00:00

"my point is nobody should be seen as innately superior due to their genetic makeup or life choices."

OK, so to begin, I agree with you on the alpha/beta thing. It's not a valid way of evaluating a human being, unless you want to dehumanize (animalize) them.

But the idea of not judging peoples' life choices?

You lose me there.

Ultimately, the decisions a person makes reflect who they are. It doesn't matter if you value humanitarianism, charisma, intellect, or even "alpha-ness," if you have any set of standards whatsoever, you're forced to at least implicitly evaluate many decisions as bad and the person responsible as somehow flawed. "Superiority" is a loaded term, but I don't think it's really helpful or ethical to abandon the idea of judging people. What good am I doing if I say the person that raped me was just an outcome of a deterministic universe? Maybe strictly, scientifically true, but not a socially useful way of thinking.

axsis · 2015-01-03T07:24:25+00:00

While I don't agree with the alpha/beta pruning of human beings.

Humans ARE animals.

No Human is born equal to another.

Genetics DO matter.

Life choices almost always matter more than genetics.

This line of thinking only leads to the idea of some people being 'more equal than others'.

axsis · 2015-01-03T07:50:13+00:00

This is my second comment on this and it's a more personal plea.

I think you need to see a psychologist/therapist/counselor or someone who can help you through your issues. Do this to the point where they aren't how you define yourself.

redpillbanana · 2015-01-03T13:42:46+00:00

its something that has value on the animal kingdom but IMO no place in society, my point is nobody should be seen as innately superior due to their genetic makeup or life choices.

The way the world is right now and the way it should be are almost always completely different.

Also, humans are animals as well, so a tool that has value in describing/modeling the animal kingdom is also likely to have value in describing humans. The alpha/beta characterization is just one tool. It's certainly not the whole picture.

It may be uncomfortable or politically incorrect to describe a person as superior to another, but it happens all the time. Athletic competitions are often all about finding out who is the best athlete, and much of the time it comes down to genetics (and genetic predisposition to performance enhancing drugs).

due to issues during my childhood I have trouble trusting people and I am usually quiet as a result of this, I have low self confidence and very little luck finding a partner - this however makes me no less of a man than somebody successful

It depends on whose point of view you're talking about. The most important point of view, of course, is your own, and it's good that you have a strong belief in yourself.

If you're talking about the point of view of the opposite sex, then unfortunately, yes, you are less of a man in their eyes by definition. It's not your fault, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Fortunately, as long as you believe in yourself, as it seems you do, you can continue to work on yourself and hopefully find success in any area in which you apply yourself.

2015-01-03T14:32:52+00:00

The fact is, as much as it stings, it is useful in describing human behavior. "Alpha" males get more attention from women, better paying jobs, and generally have more friends. The good news, however, is that you can absolutely change your perceived status. Even in the animal kingdom, being "beta" isn't an inevitability of genetics, the way hair and eye color are.

Feel free to dump the terms if you don't like them. You don't need to call yourself a beta trying to become an alpha. But you can certainly improve your life by working on becoming more confident, competent, authoritative, emotionally stable, and reliable.

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-01-02T22:13:16+00:00

The Alpha/Beta theory is indeed way too simple to describe human behavior.

However, I don't think you'll be able to change people's attitude towards you, especially women's. Of course being shy or being a virgin should not lead to misery and loneliness for a man, but attraction cannot be negotiated.

The only thing we, as MRM, can (and should) do is combat the intense levels of shaming "low-status" men receive.

2015-01-02T22:53:11+00:00

Something makes me think this is a Red Pill critique.

this however makes me no less of a man than somebody successful

It's not a matter of you being less of a man, that is how you and many others responding here have it wrong.

You see, the theory, is not a theory, it's real biological functioning of men and women. What alpha means is that you are first choice. For example, you and Bill gates walks into a room. You don't have his money, so you will not be first choice to any woman in that room. You do not have his power, so you will not be first choice to a man. It sucks, but this is truly how the world works on a simplified biological nature. The entire Alpha and Beta doctrine is not something that is just a defined line, it is something made of sand, it applies to situations. Even an alpha by definition, in how they carry their frame, how they speak with confidence, how they spend money, can be superseded by another alpha who simply has more.

For example, if someone like Brad Pitt walks into a room, people respond, but then Dwayne Johnson walks in, people respond more. There is a situation to which two men of an alpha status having preference of the females in the room, the respect of the men, and can navigate the room without fear and complete ease because they are their own Oak tree with roots that go very deep. They have status, they have money, and they have success.

Alpha and Beta are not just Red Pill theory like some will point out because the red pill simply highlights the behavior patterns of humans and designates certain behavior patterns as the two. In psychology it is done to define mental behaviors. There will always be the Alpha path, and the Beta path. To simply dismiss it as non-existent is foolish. It occurs in nature and it's not done just by popping out a bunch of wolf pups to follow you around as some would suggest. Look at how many species of Monkeys live and operate, we come from that gene pool, so if you want to see the most primal form of what is suggested, start studying monkeys.

The entire Alpha/Beta designation is about being the best you can possibly be without getting taken advantage of. For the red pill guys some might have it be about fucking as many females as you can and leaving them in your wake. Many others may have it only be about self improvement. What it isn't is about seeing yourself as a superior being, which is what most people who can't read past the first page make the assumption. It's about being the strongest person you can be, mentally and physically, and you will not allow anyone to derail you.

xNOM · 2015-01-03T04:26:09+00:00

Newsflash: humans are animals. Even today, considerably more women than men reproduce.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-01-02T19:45:53+00:00

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2015-01-02T23:32:40+00:00

So, if you don't think this makes you less of a man, what makes you a man in the first place? Not wanting to insult you, but you seem to be comparing yourself with others. Thus you need to have some kind of picture in mind what makes someone a man.

aussietoads · 2015-01-03T00:07:47+00:00

So, you don't like the idea of alpha and beta males.? Then don't try to be one. Be a Zeta. Live your life within your own standards.

YabuSama2k · 2015-01-03T01:23:01+00:00

Don't pay too much attention to the whole alpha/beta thing. It is pretty much a concept-by-concept repackaging of the decades old "pimpology" anyway.

Learn to love yourself and follow your passion and dreams to the fullest extent possible. Challenge yourself intellectually and physically, and ignore dumb-asses who try to impose their dichotomies on you.

Also, don't rule out getting some counseling about the troubles in your childhood. No shame in talking about it.

wazzup987 · 2015-01-03T04:04:40+00:00

Thats red pill man we use from time to as short hand for get you shit together but that mostly TRP nonsense. for the most part MRA's and terpers dont get along, even though there is some over lap there is not warm and fuzzies between us.

Merari01 · 2015-01-05T16:35:23+00:00

Humans do not dimorphise into alpha and beta males, so you could critique it for being factually incorrect.

Azothlike · 2015-01-02T22:12:54+00:00

You overestimate humans and underestimate other animals.

And some things are obviously superior to others. Lack of genetic problem > genetic problem. Pretending it's not better isn't helping anyone.

Lastly, quit blaming your problems on your childhood. My childhood was a tragic horror story, and I got over it to become a content, confident person that can easily find a "partner". Or, keep making up excuses and let your past hold you back, I could care less. Doesn't change the fact that the partners you "can't find" find me without a problem, because they think I'm objectively superior.

That's just the facts. Putting a blindfold on doesn't help anything; even if people don't talk about it, they'll still act about it.

fucks-like-a-tiger · 2015-01-02T23:29:14+00:00

Alpha/beta/omega is an entirely appropriate shorthand to describe the social status of human males.

innately superior

is a eugenics term and has nothing to do with social status.

due to issues during my childhood

Get over it. Move on. Stop making excuses for yourself.

ITT: a bunch of betas denying a hierarchy exists. Accept the reality, stop making excuses, better yourself. Imagining your successful self is the first step.

dungone · 2015-01-03T00:28:44+00:00

Most of the time when you hear those words it's nothing more than pseudo-scientific gibberish.

Let me try explaining it in a roundabout way. I've know a lot of men who's entire self worth is predicated on their ability to get laid. The thing is, they have absolutely no standards. When they get with an ugly woman it's just "practice" or to "hold them over." But if it's a moderately attractive woman then it suddenly counts towards what they imagine to be a perfect record of bedding hot women. This is called confirmation bias.

The alpha/beta gibberish is the same way. In spite of the fact that most sex happens within the context of committed relationships and in spite of the fact that the highest status individuals among us find themselves in those types of relationships, as do the rest of us at some point in our lives, these guys somehow think that getting laid by a completely random girl every other week is what makes you "alpha." It's what they value, therefore to them, it's "alpha," in spite of the myriad of other ways in which you could measure a person's worth.

So now the question is, besides your admittedly low self esteem, why would you give a shit what those people think?

rg57 · 2015-01-02T23:08:55+00:00

"something that has value on the animal kingdom but IMO no place in society, my point is nobody should be seen as innately superior due to their genetic makeup or life choices"

That's just silly. Humans are animals. It's biology. Genetics and environment DO mean that each of us are indeed individuals, and some of us are certainly superior, and some of us are inferior, in relation to others. What do you think the Olympics, or Masters-level physics, is about? Those of us who are inferior cannot do these things. Deal with it.

Legally, we have agreed (or our ancestors have agreed for us) to design a society where, despite our quite obvious differences, we treat each other equally in order to get along. That is quite a separate matter.

I don't know specifically about the correctness of alpha/beta in human males, but there are certainly males who have natural leadership ability, for example. You can't wave that away.

memetherapy · 2015-01-03T02:59:16+00:00

I feel like people here are confused. Being alpha vs beta is a simplistic way of talking about men competing for female attention, with alphas being the ones winning. Some people take it too seriously by drawing an analogy to some animals, where alphas and betas are decided through intimidation or violence.

But that doesn't entail something of that nature isn't occurring with human men. Women are attracted by power, amongst other things... but one cannot deny the sexiness of male power from the female perspective.

I'm not a fan of this reality, but I don't base my understanding of the world on my feelings, but on evidence... and the evidence points to this dynamic being very real. Who knows how it really comes about, how much of it is really genetic, etc... but clearly it's a reality, and its a reality that fairs well under the scrutiny of possible evolutionary pressures. This phenomenon shouldn't be a surprise given the need for females throughout history to choose a good nurturer.

Just because RedPillers tend to run too far with their evo.psyc. rationalizations doesn't imply the whole concept is flawed. For humans, diverse and changing cultural contexts make it a thorny matter... but throwing the baby out with the bath water is just plain stupid, no matter how ugly the baby.

Druk0ziz · 2015-01-03T10:32:08+00:00

eh, narcissists will always find some way to make themselves feel superior

at least when they go around calling themselves "alphas" I can dismiss them quickly

Title	the whole "alpha" "beta" thing when applied to humans really grinds me
Author	theegrimrobe
Upvotes	15
Comments	70
Date	January 2, 2015 7:45 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2r4nb6/the_whole_alpha_beta_thing_when_applied_to_humans/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-whole-alpha-beta-thing-when-applied-to-humans.991422 https://theredarchive.com/post/991422