Maybe people suggest alternative wordings in comments too, its a bit jumbled. Im just saying loads of MRA's are wasting unnecessary time (this would be fine if your MRA time was unlimited, but its draining your time your could be doing other MRA stuff or stuff in general) on debating people talking about "toxic masculinity, masculinity causes mens problems blah blah
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Toxic masculinity, how men should seek therapy, psychological help, men cant show emotions, is covered absolutely thoroughly by a world expert in the field of male psychology in the video below. His conclusion, is its a flawed idea, don't use it, there are much better psychological frameworks and tools that are evidence based and we know works. More so he asked thousands of real men what they thought, so cheers for femsplaining masculinity đ but I'll think I'll listen to the experts and thousands of men studied. This video and paper are all that needs to be said on the subject. Anyone uses the term toxic masculinity and wants to use that concept, just copy and paste this piece of text I am writing, nothing else is needed. It they want to engage in the topic, great, they can watch the video and read the text, tell them watch it and get back to me. If they don't want to of course thats coo, but tell them to stop femsplaining toxic masculinity then and check their privilege.... here is an actual professor and world expert in male psychology and author of one of Palgraves leading psychology books, and dozens of academic research paper.... yeah I'd listen to him rather then you femsplaning, so listen to what he has to say about toxic masculinity instead and check your privilege, instead of femsplaining the topic:
Here covered thoroughly in video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB-Gpq7h9cs
Abstract:
Masculinity is frequently talked about in contemporary Western media as being in crisis, needing reform or even being âtoxicâ. However, no research to date has assessed the impact that this pervasive narrative might be having on people, particularly men themselves. This cross-sectional online pilot survey asked 203 men and 52 women (mean + SD age 46 + 13) their opinions about the terms toxic masculinity, traditional masculinity, and positive masculinity, and how they would feel if their gender was seen as the cause of their relationship or job problems. Most participants thought the term toxic masculinity insulting, probably harmful to boys, and unlikely to help menâs behaviour. Having feminist views, especially being anti-patriarchy, were correlated with more tolerance of the term toxic masculinity. Most participants said they would be unhappy if their masculinity or femininity were blamed for their work or relationship problems. Further analysis using multiple linear regression found that menâs self-esteem was significantly predicted by older age, more education, and a greater acceptance of traditional masculinity. Menâs mental positivity â which is known to be negatively correlated with suicidality â was significantly predicted by older age, a greater acceptance of traditional masculinity, and more education. Implications for the mental health of men and boys are discussed in relation to the narrative around masculinity in the media, social sciences, and in clinical psychology.
Full article for free:
https://zenodo.org/record/3871217#.X-p1ji2l2J_
Yeah listen to an expert professor on the subject and stop trying to femsplain masculinity đ
11.4 How do some feminists reinforce aspects of gender traditionalism?
One of the biggest issues in feminism is âviolence against womenâ. There are countless campaigns to end it or saying itâs âtoo commonâ, and feminist celebrity Emma Watson says â[i]tâs sad that we live in a society where women donât feel safeâ. But, as explained previously, women arenât doing any worse in terms of violence victimization. In that context, the implication of this rhetoric is that womenâs safety is more important than menâs. This clearly plays to traditionalist notions of chivalry that here help women.
(Women do feel less safe. From a 2011 article, â[w]omen fear crime at much higher levels than men, despite women being less likely to be crime victimsâ. But actual chance of victimization is more important than fear. Otherwise a middle class white person is worse off than a poor black person whoâs probably less sheltered/fearful.)
Also, one frequently touted benefit of feminism for men is that it frees them from their gender roles like the stigma of crying. However, one go-to method for mocking or attacking men is to label them cry-babies, whiners, complainers, or man-children, labels that clearly have roots in shaming of male weakness and gender role non-compliance. This is evident in a common feminist âmale tearsâ meme, which originated with the goal of making fun âof men who whine about how oppressed they are, how hard life is for them, while they still are privilegedâ. Itâs been used by feminists Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti (first picture), and Chelsea G. Summers (second picture)MIT professor Scott Aaronson opened up on his blog about the psychological troubles he experienced after internalizing negative attitudes about male sexuality, which partly came from the portrayed connection between men and sexual assault in feminist literature and campaigns. He was clear he was still â97% on boardâ with feminism. Amanda Marcotte responded with an article called âMIT professor explains: The real oppression is having to learn to talk to womenâ, which included a âcry-babyâ picture at the top. Another âcry-babyâ attack comes from an article on the feminist gaming website The Mary Sue.
Another example of this general attitude is the #MasculinitySoFragile Twitter hashtag used to âcall out and mock stereotypical male behaviors that align with the feminist concept of âtoxic masculinity,â which asserts that certain attributes of the Western machismo archetype can be self-detrimental to those who embrace themâ. Itâs like challenging beauty standards for women with #FemininitySoUgly; that doesnât challenge those standards, it reinforces them.
Many feminist approaches to sexual assault and domestic violence reinforce gender traditionalism by downplaying or excluding anything outside of the âmale perpetrator, female victimâ paradigm. Mary P. Koss, an influential feminist voice on rape (and professor at the University of Arizona), says that it is âinappropriateâ to say that men can be raped by women. She instead calls it âengaging in unwanted sexual intercourse with a womanâ (âThe Scope of Rapeâ, 1993, page 206). For domestic violence, the article âBeyond Duluthâ by Johnna Rizza of the University of Montana School of Law describes the Duluth Model, an influential domestic violence prevention program in the United States that takes a âfeminist psycho-educational approachâ to the problem.
Practitioners using this model inform men that they most likely batter women to sustain a patriarchal society. The program promotes awareness of the vulnerability of women and children politically, economically, and socially.
According to Rizza, the Duluth Model is the most commonly state-mandated model of intervention, and the only statutorily acceptable treatment model in some states.
Basic point is that we have inherited from gender traditionalism (and perhaps biology) a strong protective attitude towards women, and that is a major reason why weâre conscious of and attentive to womenâs issues but not menâs. Feminism is seen as a rejection of gender roles and in many ways it is, but the elevation of womenâs safety and well-being to an almost sacred status within feminism (e.g., âwe must end violence against womenâ as if violence matters less when it happens to men) fits in well with traditionalist attitudes of âwomen are precious and we must protect themâ.
11.1 So the problemsâboth the issues themselves, and the lack of recognition of the issuesâcome primarily from the traditionalist system of gender. Feminists fight against that, so isnât feminism the answer?
Iâve seen feminists whoâve challenged traditionalist attitudes for hurting men or whoâve engaged in activism on menâs issues more broadly. But looking at the overall feminist movementâs priorities, itâs very clear that women are first and men are a distant second. Thatâs completely expected given their belief that women are much worse off, but I disagree with them on that. I canât accept feminism as âthe answerâ for men if I donât think they properly acknowledge the scale and effect of menâs issues.
Consider the statement from feminist Jackie Blue (Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner at the New Zealand Human Rights Commission as of 2016) that â[g]ender equality is about accepting that at birth, half of us are intrinsically discriminated and treated differently based on sexâ. Obviously she means women. That approach to gender equality is not one that will fix menâs issues.
The post âWhat is Feminism?â on EverydayFeminism says that feminism is for men too, but the very first point it makes under that heading is about how men are expected to mistreat women (to âdominate, abuse, exploit, and silence [them]Â in order to maintain superiorityâ) and how most of them are troubled by treating women like this. Thatâs an example of âhelping menâ with women as the real priority.
Also, the problems for men donât just come from gender traditionalism. Some aspects of feminism are a problem for men.
The standard view of gender equality is that itâs mostly or entirely about women and their issues. For example, see âAn Act to establish Gender Equality Weekâ (only womenâs issues mentioned) or the Globe and Mail article âHave we achieved gender equality? Nine Canadian women respondâ. Academic feminism often uses particularly dramatic, one-sided language when talking about gender inequalityâdomination, oppression, and exploitation (for women) and entitlement, privilege, and power (for men).
11.2 Is it feminismâs job to address menâs issues? Canât feminism be about women?
If feminism is a movement for gender equality (especially the movement for gender equality), which it is very often promoted as, then yes, it absolutely is feminismâs job to address menâs issues.
Feminism doesnât have to be that. It could instead be a movement for women, in which case it wouldnât have to do anything for men. But feminism could no longer be promoted as âjust another word for gender equalityâ, and there would be a clear need for a menâs movement to exist alongside (but outside of) feminism to help men.
Itâs also important that the problem with feminism and menâs issues is deeper than just a lack of action. First, some feminists actively oppose or obstruct attempts to raise attention to (or address) menâs issues from outside of feminism. Second, many aspects of gender traditionalism that help women and harm men are tolerated or even embraced by a certain segment of feminists. And third, many feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude to men that borders on hostility and encourages antagonistic gender relations, making working together to achieve gender equality more difficult.
11.5 How do some feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude towards men?
In recent years, a certain segment of feminists has developed slew of terms aimed at being specifically critical of menâs thoughts/behaviour like âmansplainingâ, âmanspreadingâ, âmale privilegeâ, âmale entitlementâ, âtoxic masculinityâ, âmale narcissismâ, âmanslammingâ, âmanterruptingâ, âmanstandingâ, Â âbropropriatingâ, and âcheck your privilegeâ (which is used to ask men to reflect on their biases, but not women). Women do not receive this same critical treatment (at least from feminists; there are places on the internet where people take a similar hyper-critical attitude to women with ideas like âfemale solipsismâ, but theyâre widely considered misogynists).
One example of the hyper-critical language and attitude is the Jezebel article on âmale narcissismâ. The response to the 2014 Isla Vista killings by Elliot Rodger provides many other examples, like a Feminist Current article on âmale entitlementâ, a Salon article on âtoxic male entitlementâ, and an AlterNet article on âAggrieved White Male Entitlement Syndromeâ. âManterruptingâ, âmanstandingâ, and âbropropriatingâ can be seen in the TIME article âHow Not to Be âManterruptedâ in Meetingsâ. Could you imagine any of these outlets writing articles on âfemale narcissismâ, âfemale entitlementâ, âwoman-naggingâ, or women being âfemotionalâ?
Author Warren Farrell provides interesting insight into this phenomenon from the decade of his life that he spent as a feminist (from his book The Myth of Male Power, introduction).
â[âŠ] I wondered if the reason so many more women than men listened to me was because I had been listening to women but not listening to men. I reviewed some of the tapes from among the hundreds of womenâs and menâs groups I had started. I heard myself. When women criticized men, I called it âinsight,â âassertiveness,â âwomenâs liberation,â âindependence,â or âhigh self-esteem.â When men criticized women, I called it âsexism,â âmale chauvinism,â âdefensiveness,â ârationalizing,â and âbacklash.â I did it politely-but the men got the point. Soon the men were no longer expressing their feelings. Then I criticized the men for not expressing their feelings!â
11.6 Are there any other things some feminists do that harm men?
The 2007-08 financial crisis was much harder on male-dominated sectors like construction and manufacturing, and 80% of total job losses were men. Economist Mark Perry called the recession a âdownturnâ for women but a âcatastropheâ for men. Obamaâs stimulus plan focused on infrastructure to help the hardest hit sectors, but he was opposed by groups of feminist economists and feminist historians, and established womenâs groups, for focusing too much on men. He relented and shifted some focus to the female-dominated (but already recession-resistant) fields of health and education in his proposal. (Source: âNo Country for Burly Menâ, archive)
Some feminists downplay the validity of menâs voices and perspectives compared to womenâs. One feminist academic says that âwomenâs embodiment specifically affords them a different, privileged understanding of patriarchal systemsâ.
Low standards of evidence for sexual assault hearings (where men are more likely to be accused than women) on campus are widely supported by feminists.
11.7 Does intersectional feminism address your concerns?
Intersectionality (a term introduced by KimberlĂ© Crenshaw in a 1989 paper) moves feminism in the direction of taking into account not just gender but also race, class, sexual orientation, etc. Primarily this means means building their theory and activism around a broader range of women (than just upper-class white women), especially black women and poor women. According to one article, intersectionality was âmeant to help black women understand their experiences in a white supremacist patriarchal culture like the U.S.â. While moving beyond just upper-class white women is probably a good change for feminism, it doesnât address my concerns about men and menâs issues.
I also see self-described intersectional perspectives talking about issues facing black men, gay men, etc. See this post on Daily Kos by a gay man writing from an intersectional perspective, saying that being gay means he lacks âsome standard forms of male privilegeâ. Another post from the same site makes a similar point about race. Intersectionality in this sense doesnât address my concerns either. Itâs usually about men facing issues and disadvantages for being black or being gay that happen despite their âmale privilegeâ. Iâm interested in the issues and disadvantages that happen because of their gender itself, i.e., cases where itâs not âmale privilegeâ but rather âmale disadvantageâ. The condition of black men in the justice system is a perfect example. They face a sentencing bias on account of their race, but this racial disadvantage doesnât negate or counteract any sort of gender advantage. In fact, this disadvantage of being black adds onto the disadvantage of being male for sentencing, and they receive harsher sentencing than white men, black women, and especially white women."
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