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Wage Gap

[deleted]
December 11, 2016
8413 upvotes
/r/MensRights
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Title Wage Gap
Author [deleted]
Upvotes 8413
Comments 469
Date December 11, 2016 7:33 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit /r/MensRights
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/wage-gap.936011
https://theredarchive.com/post/936011
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5hrv8j/wage_gap/
Comments

[–]Terribledragon4Hire 1657 points1658 points  (200 children) | Copy Link

It's an earnings gap. Not a wage gap.

Always, always make sure you specify this

[–]NostalgiaSC 144 points145 points  (88 children) | Copy Link

Can you expand on the difference?

[–]MyOtherTagsGood 602 points603 points  (81 children) | Copy Link

One implies separate wages for the same jobs based on gender(paying men more than women because patriarchy). The other, is a correlation of how women on average earn less than men due to individual life choices.

[–]gardenia42 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. I am a woman who works in one of those places with uncomfortable working conditions and high risk of workplace injury. And guess what? I make as much as a male with a comparable skillset. Granted, I had to negotiate pretty hard for it. I think negotiation skills, or lack of them, play a not insignificant role in the gender earnings gap. A lot of women I know just don't do it. They take what they're offered and call it good.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I understand the point you are trying to make. To add to what you are saying, women in their 30's who work full time earn on average a few percent more than their male counterparts.

Meaning that the "wage gap" is even reverse of what it's reported to be for some age groups.

[–]Dazz316 34 points35 points  (76 children) | Copy Link

See I still don't get the wording difference, I agree with the argument, just earnings and wages are pretty much the same to me. To me it sounds the same as

One implies separate earnings for the same jobs based on gender(paying men more than women because patriarchy). The other, is a correlation of how women on average receive lower wages than men due to individual life choices.

What is the difference between earnings and wages.

Edit: I'm not arguing the point (I actually agree with it not that I was doing that either). I'm asking for a lesson in fucking English. Why the downvotes?

Edit 2: Thank you to those who answered the question that I asked. Much appreciated!

Edit 3: Still getting some answers to this. Both to what I asked and what I didn't. I have the answer I need so no need to respond. Thanks everyone. For all those who answered what I asked, I wish I could make you feel like this lil guy.

[–]Scaryspiderhome 214 points215 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

My co-workers and I are paid the same wages. I like to take a lot of voluntary time off therefore they have hire earnings.

[–]KrazyA1pha 167 points168 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

they have hire earnings

higher

[–]Scaryspiderhome 56 points57 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Ahh yes, I was on the shitter, when I wrote that. Thanks.

[–]Hahnsolo11 66 points67 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

While we're at it that's a pretty inappropriate comma you've got there

[–]The_Punniest 27 points28 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Where is your period?

[–]Hahnsolo11 7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I feel that when using periods for single sentences online you tend to sound too serious. I'm not a grammar Nazi or a linguist but that comma splice bothered me.

[–]TheJollyLlama875 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

He's Captain Kirking!

[–]ajahanonymous 51 points52 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wage is a pay rate, earnings is a a total sum.

[–]neightdog 25 points26 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

A wage is $10/hour. The amount you make after a shift is earnings.

Example 1: If we both get paid $10/hour and i work 8 hours but you work 6 hours, then you have made 75 cents to my $1 (i make $80 and you make $60) and we have a 25% earnings gap

Example 2: But if i get paid $10/hour and you get paid $7.50/hour, and we both work 8 hours, then you have made 75 cents to my $1 (i make $80 and you make $60) and we have a 25% wage gap

In both examples, i have gotten paid 25% more than you. But one is because i have higher earnings than you and the other is because i have a higher wage than you

[–]Dazz316 20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for reading and understanding my question. I'm going to link you to ask my responses because everyone else read ""ermrgerd woman totally get less money for same work"

[–]anonymous_potato 63 points64 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

My coworker and I are paid the same wage. She has a baby and decides to go part time. Our wages are the same, but my earnings for the year are higher.

Another example is that We both get the same wage, but I stay late every night and earn a lot more overtime hours. Again, my earnings are higher although our wage is the same.

Working overtime every day allows me to get more work done and be involved in more projects. The boss notices this, therefore I'm more likely to get a promotion. Repeat this over several generations and we have more men in executive positions.

The true unbiased facts are that there are legitimate cases of women being paid less for the same work. However, a lot of the statistics used to discuss the issue are greatly skewed due to gender differences in life choices rather than actual sexual discrimination.

[–]amd2800barton 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another common one is you and your co-worker each have a kid. You come back to work after taking a week of PTO. Your co-worker goes on an extended leave of absence for 6 months. Repeat 2 more times. Initially you each had identical qualifications. Now several years later one of you has less experience, and gets paid accordingly.

That difference in experience might seem small if you both have 20 years in your field... but most new parents only have a few years experience - which means two young professionals out of school 5 years might have wildly different work histories.

[–]metaltrite 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

and in those cases it is illegal

[–]Jake0024 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We both make $10/hr. I work 10 hours, you work 5 hours. We have the same wage, but I earn twice as much.

[–]drazzy92 15 points16 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

That study was so flawed and full of holes that the scientific community just agreed to throw it out entirely. I'm still shocked by how sudden it was because in 2011 my sister and I were always fighting with others because we both knew the wage gap was bullshit. We turned into pariahs and we would see stupid skits written by that idiot Tina Fey all the time. Then one day all the credible newspapers denounced the wage gap.

The fact is that they compared the earnings that year by gender. The flaw was that women don't work as much as men do, stay-at-home moms, maternity leave, the fact that women just generally do lighter work for the most part. It also really got to me because the fact is that men are doing way more dangerous and physically-intensive jobs than women.

However, when you get into an office where everyone was hired on the merit of their degree and qualifications they are paid their fair sum. The fact is that if women really made 77 cents to the male's dollar greedy CEOs would hire on entire teams of women to exploit this gender wage gap. It makes absolutely no logical sense, and I truly don't understand how it even became as widespread as it was in 2011. We have feminism to thank for that, and the fact they were such direct proponents of it has completely shattered their credibility, and now they're just slowly fading into the background.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

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[–]DrFistington -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a good point. If companies could actually just pay women 33% less than men and get the exact same quality and intensity of work from them, then companies would be clamoring to try and staff as many females as they could to cut overall costs. The fact of the matter is, that's really not the case. The vast majority of companies offer the same wages regardless of gender. Its just that as a man, I'm much less likely to take maternity leave, or have to leave early because of the kids, etc, etc, so at the end of the year, or a 5 year period, my earnings will probably be higher.

[–]karnerblu 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Linda and Charlie are hired for the same job at the same time for the same wage. The first year they make exactly the same. Linda gets pregnant and takes maternity leave during which (for arguments sake) she makes half the wage while being out of work (basically on disability). While Linda is on leave Charlie is still working so at the end of the second year Charlie made more than Linda. Multiply that by several years and factor in both paid and unpaid time off due to family responsibilities and at the end of their careers Charlie made more in earnings than Linda.

A very simplified way to explain it but you get the idea

[–]jonmcfluffy 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

another way of saying it is that nurses make less than doctors and sectaries makes less than sales departments.

women for some reason just tend to choose lesser paying jobs.

[–]ChristofferTJ 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You have a coworker with the same job, you both get paid 10$ an hour. This is your wage.
But you work 10 hours more than your coworker, therefore your earnings are 100$ more than your coworker even though your wage is the same

[–]Dazz316 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for reading my question and answering properly. Others struggled to do so, I appreciate it.

[–]its710somewhere 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I pay you $7/hr, that is your wage. If I pay your coworkers $8/hr, you have a wage gap.

Now, say I pay you all $7/hr. But you work 36 hours a week and go to school part time, while they work 60 hours a week.

You get paid $252 for that week. They get paid $420.

This is an earnings gap.

You had an equal wage, but your earnings were not equal. You had equality of opportunity. But you chose to work less, so you earned less.

[–]youmeanwhatnow 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wage is the income you give to a specific job. Let's say a man and a woman have an entry level accounting job. They both get paid the same wage. At this point on this one specific example they have the same earnings. But our data set isn't done here.

Now we have 40 men and 40 woman split in four jobs. Accounting, human resources, operations management, and marketing.

Accounting folk make $20 an hour, 5 men and 5 women work for this job.

Human resources makes $25 an hour, this compromises of 8 women and 2 men.

Marketing $30 an hour, 5 men and 5 women.

Operations management $35 an hour 8 men and 2 women.

From this everyone at every level makes the same wage. In total however; the men are earning more. To put this in a global scale let's say men and women are even split, men tend to take jobs that pay more, woman are in jobs that pay less. However men and women still compromise the same jobs that pay the same wages only the split of men and women are different. Thus men are earning more.

[–]pyrolovesmoney 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Wage = the amount you get paid for an x unit of work ie your hourly wage is 15 dollars an hour.

Earnings = how much you earn for the units of labor you provide

The reason there is a difference is that a oil well work earns say 68 dollars an hour as an hourly wage. A woman or man can be an oil well worker for the same wage. However, if a man chooses to work in an oil well and a woman chooses say to be a nurse her wage is 40 an hour they will have different wages and earnings. If both work the same job they receive the same wage (Rate of pay). If the man works I'm the oil field and the woman becomes a nurse for a set amount of hours say 40 a week, their earnings will differ.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What do you think could a talented artisan in the glass making business earn per hour? Especially if he or she invents some kind of...a new type of wine glass maybe?

[–]pyrolovesmoney 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

trick question, artisans are usually self employed and don't necessarily receive an hourly wage. Even if they invent new glasses, their per hour rate is usually pretty low considering the time investment.

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

One means if you did the same thing you would get the same pay. Earning difference.

The other doesn't. Wage difference.

[–]Dazz316 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I got that, I was asking what the difference actually was. Others explained that so nm.

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was asking what the difference actually was. Others explained that

SO.....

just that second part then?

[–]Dazz316 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You didn't actually explain it. You just said it's different without explaining it. Not what the difference was/is.

A proper explanation is that your wage is £10 an hour. Your earnings is £100 after 10 hours.

[–]goodolarchie 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

$20 / hr * 35 hours (has to pick up kids)

$20 / hr * 45 hours (works OT to support family)

Same wage, different earnings

[–]gagnonca 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Buy a dictionary and stop asking stupid questions

[–]Dazz316 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or stop being a dick?

[–]Bluntmasterflash1 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds to me like a girls don't work enough gap when you put it like that.

[–]Animal31 -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

wages for women based on the same jobs worked in the same field for the same amount of hours are 8% lower than men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0EYBBl5LI&ab_channel=vlogbrothers

[–]Reddit1990 18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When people talk about earnings its strictly monetary with no regards to the work or source of income. A wage is the amount you get paid for a job, so it implies there's a gap in wages for the same jobs.

[–]iainmf 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I pay person A and person B $100/hr and A works for 30 hours and B works for 40 hours then I can say A and B are paid the same ($100/hr) but earn different amounts ($3000 vs $4000).

[–]Reno83 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Basically, take a look at your pay stub. Wage is your rate per unit of time. Earnings is the total sum for the time actually worked.

[–]Terribledragon4Hire 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

https://youtu.be/hRfERVPq2VE

[–]garrypig 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wage is the rate, earnings is finalized. Think of it as, your wage builds up to your earnings.

[–]red_ventures 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Earnings gap is when men have jobs that just inherently pay more (Doctor vs Teacher), wage gap is when men and women have the same job and men get paid more than women just because their men. Earnings gap is real, wage gap is made up.

[–]neart_roimh_laige 24 points25 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Please do elaborate! Need a better way to explain to others when I talk about this.

[–]Silmariel 133 points134 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Women chose not only different careers than men but are more likely to take breaks in those careers to have babies fx. If one allows females are responsible for the subjects they choose to study at college, and are also responsible for chosing fx. gender studies over STEM fields their career options and future wages are then also direct results of their own life choices.

So, men and women who work the same jobs, earn the same, but there are more men working higher paying jobs than there are women working higher paying jobs. Fx. You'll find more men working oil rigs than women, and more women working kindergardens than men. Put the two together and work out the mean wage, men come out on top. Unashamedly plug this as a wage gap OR: Seperate them into groups for the jobs they do, and the wage gap dissappears. Women on oil rigs earn the same as the men on the oil rigs working the same job. Men in kindergarden earn the same as the women in kindergarden working the same job. But, more men are on the rigs, more women in the kindergarden; Looks like a wage gap if you push a feminist narrative, instead of an earnings gap. - When you conduct research based solely on facts, the wage gap dissappears.

The trend among late 20s early 30s professionals is an earnings gap slightly in favor of women. Men are also less likely than ever to get a higher education compared to women, but, this narrative of a wage gap is being pushed in mainstream media in a way that is completely unabashed and shameless. Its a good indicator of what news outlets conduct fact checking, and which ones run with a certain narrative I find.

Men are more or less the only ones to work as garbage disposal haulers, septic tank cleaners etc, - and are far more likely to suffer work related injuries and even death. - There IS a gender gap when it comes to jobs; Suicides, work related accidents, late retirement etc, but it doesnt leave the women at a disadvantage, quite the opposite.

[–]refriedi 36 points37 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I’m thinking Fx means For Example.

[–]Zxyquz 20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for mentioning that I got pretty confused when I saw Fx

[–]Mr_Canard 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah why not just write "ex:"

[–]refriedi 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

or eg

[–]Mr_Canard -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But there is no G in example.

[–]refriedi 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Egzample.

[–]HL4ND3R 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well explained, thank you.

[–]Decyde 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

To add with this a tad, I'm more pissed off when women try and get the same job as men when they cannot meet the same standards.

I know the firehouse here in my town allows women to carry less weight, run a mile in a longer time and so on.

If you cannot meet the same physical expectations as men, a lot of women can, then you should not be allowed to qualify for the job.

[–]TacoOrgy 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Womens higher education numbers are also inflated right now. I'd argue that it's better to not go to college than to go in debt for a gender studies degree.

[–]vitamenc 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You'd only be arguing against gender study majors lol. Everyone else would agree that its a waste

[–]refriedi 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A separate issue to resolve is whether traditionally female-dominated fields (e.g. kindergarten teacher) have lower pay than male-dominated fields (oil rig) because they're easier, or because they're female-dominated fields.

[–]someguynamedjohn13 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don't go to school for the same degrees or enter the workforce for the same careers as well. The jobs they train for often pay significantly less or require more advanced degrees to even enter the workforce.

I work in healthcare where the majority of positions are filled by women, until you get to the top positions, we do have more women filling top positions than other industries, but at the same time the women in those positions are often much older than their male equivalent, often by a decade. For example in my department I'm 33 and a department coordinator, my manager is in her 50s, and her supervisors are in their late 40s, by the way all female. Meanwhile our VP is male and in his 40s. The majority of employees in my department are female and much older than myself.

To expand, many of the people I work with are nurses and 9 out of 10 are female. To be a registered nurse you only need a two year degree, and the pay is rather good for so little college level work. However many hospitals are now requiring bachelor's degree for entry level jobs that didn't need these requirements only a few years ago. Nurses can't advance to management roles without a post graduate degrees. For most of my colleagues the lower management positions don't pay well enough and the overtime they can earn as a regular nurse makes management a hard sell especially for a younger person who isn't yet tied down by relationships or children. It's the older nurses who have done raising their kids that often become lower management. Their male counterparts can be decades younger simply because they saw need to move their career upward and to physically provide instead of emotionally for their potential family.

[–]Terribledragon4Hire 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

https://youtu.be/hRfERVPq2VE

[–]KeinBernd2 184 points185 points  (79 children) | Copy Link

Yep, if women want to earn as much as men then they need to work as hard as they do.

[–]Soup-Wizard 148 points149 points  (75 children) | Copy Link

What if they do and still don't get paid as much?

[–]coolcrayons 508 points509 points  (40 children) | Copy Link

then its not a good thing

[–]Soup-Wizard 188 points189 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

I don't like this image, because it implies all women want more pay for less work. I don't think that's always true. When I heard Bernie talking about the whole "75 cents to the dollar" thing, I always assumed it was between the same jobs and the same amount of work. But I see how that statistic can be misleading now.

[–]mckaystites 150 points151 points  (34 children) | Copy Link

It's extremely misleading. The average citizen only hears this supposed fact "Women earn less then men"

But you have women that earn more than some men. It's just that a lot more women work less then men. They get pregnant, take days off, they work safer jobs, have less flexibility within the workforce and so on.

Women get paid by work they accomplish. The only thing this misleading statistic shows is that women work less.

[–]con_los_terroristas 50 points51 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

However, culture is changing, women are joining higher skilled careers and domestic labor is being more evenly shared between the genders, which is why the average wage gap is closing. We should obviously be supportive of this change.

[–]mckaystites 56 points57 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

I am. My problem is not with women being paid equally. It's with women being paid equally for unequal work, when the work shared is not equal.

[–]juicy_g 30 points31 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

IE the U.S. Military. Everyone gets paid the same, but less is required of the females. specifically, physical fitness standards.

[–]UnderAnAargauSun 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Same job, same pay. There's no single job in the military where women who have the same rank, rate/MOS, role get paid the same for doing less. WGAF that they have to do fewer push-ups for a passing score on the PFA/PRT? The women I've served with were just as capable as the men. There were dirtbags and super performers in both groups. It's not a gender thing.

[–]Terrh 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But that almost never happens.

If it did, nobody would hire men. I sure wouldn't.

[–]AFuckYou 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Earning gap***

[–]Nick12506 -2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The ability for them to produce a kid at any given moment is the big issue. You can't expect a company to give you the ability to give you months of time off because you wanted to be creampied..

[–]D0ct0rJ 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How about maternity and paternity leave are required to be offered by law, because a man can be a parent too. Then it's not just women who are potential time thieves, selfishly stealing from the company by having a family.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, fuck the next generation! If women wanted an equal footing with men they shouldn't have been born with wombs

[–]con_los_terroristas 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually birth rates are dropping rapidly as more and more women choose to focus on their careers in advanced countries (Europe, Japan etc), and what they have resorted to doing is instating paid leave and other benefits for women in order to incentivise child birth. It is inevitable, national paid maternity leave is a sensible policy.

[–]Animal31 -2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

When you normalize for all that the wage gap is 8%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0EYBBl5LI&ab_channel=vlogbrothers

[–]Vpicone 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

4-8 percent according to your video. I wonder if you intentionally put the highest value.

[–]tonyh322 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, THERE IS NO WAGE GAP. There have been two congressional measures passed to ensure this, one during the Obama administration. Ever wonder how there is so much rhetoric about a wage gap but never any court cases considering it is federally illegal to pay women less for equal work? Because it doesn't happen.

[–]Animal31 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Prove it

[–]Jah_Ith_Ber -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can try to control for factors but there are always more that cannot be controlled for by their very nature. Like men flat out working harder because society measures their worth by their job.

[–]Jake0024 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

all women people want more pay for less work.

FTFY

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True but only women have a lobbying group arguing that they're entitled to it because of their genitals.

[–]twenty7forty2 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But I see how that statistic can be misleading now.

The average person has one boob and one testicle.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn't. They know you'll assume that . That's why it's a lie.

[–]Atheist101 42 points43 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Then thats illegal

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Assuming that they're only being paid less due to gender and not education/qualifications differences.

[–]Wehavecrashed 7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

There was a study that showed that women with the same qualifications as men were offered less for the same position.

[–]Hides_In_Plain_Sight 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

[Citation Needed]

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No there wasn't.

[–]Beltox2pointO 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There was, but in reality it wasn't they were offered less, it's they agreed to less after both having the same starter offer.

[–]CSharpReallySucks 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

People who are less assertive when discussing they wage are offered less?

WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?

[–]xNOM 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are also studies which show that women do not negotiate salaries, and are more likely to quit jobs to become full-time or part-time parents.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And I fully believe it. And at that point, you'd certainly have a case. But the huge problem with things like this is actually proving it.

[–]youwontguessthisname 19 points20 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Then we have laws. No company is going to risk a lawsuit because they paid a woman less. Want to know how big of a problem the "wage gap" is in America? Search for lawsuits.....you will find very very few.

[–]lll_lll_lll 20 points21 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Laws aren't even needed. It's a self correcting system. If women were willing to do the exact same work for less, then they would be more in demand until the pay difference became arbitraged out.

[–]Soup-Wizard 3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

But how would they ever know if the company never tells them?

[–]Nartana 10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If a business could really pay women less money to do the same job, wouldn't you think they would only higher women? You know, to make money?

[–]eddlette -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Women are offered less money because they are seen as less valuable.

[–]Nartana 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why would you higher someone you don't think is valuable? You want to higher the most valuable person for your company. Why have you never heard a serious economist talk about this issue, it's because it doesn't exit.

[–]eddlette 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying they see women and not valuable at all but rather just on whole less competent than male counterparts with similar skills and background and salary is a measure of a person's perceived value to a business. That being said, direct discrimination is only a small part of the earnings gap story

Who would you consider a serious economist?

What about Harvard economist Claudia Goldin who's primary area of study is gender economics and has written extensively on the subject whith an emphasis on how the child raising burden has caused women to suffer in careers that require very regular hours.

Or Luis Pedro Santos Pinto economist at University of Lausanne in Switzerland who studied who self-perception differed between genders and what role that played in economic outcomes.

  • Santos-Pinto, L. (2012). Labor Market Signaling and Self-Confidence: Wage Compression and the Gender Pay Gap. Journal Of Labor Economics, 30(4), 873-913.

Rachel Sayers of Layola Universities Economics Department studied what of the pay gap remained after controlling for disproportionate domestic labor and is consequent choices (working fewer hours or taking less responsibility at work due to marriage or children).

Francine Blau of Cornell who compared many countries over a period of 9 years to try to determine which macroeconomic situations increased or decreased a gender pay gap.

  • Blau, F. D., & Kahn, L. M. (2003). Understanding International Differences in the Gender Pay Gap. Journal Of Labor Economics, 21(1), 106-144.

And I could keep going. This is a well documented a researched phenomenon. I think a big misconception that happens in these sorts of discussions is that people who disavow the gender pay gap and people who believe it's real are having completely different arguments. I do believe a lot of the gap is the result of individual choice but I believe, based on strong evidence, that those choices are the result of systemic sexism. It's well documented that women are perceived as less competent than their male counterparts and penalized for raise negotiations. Very few jobs in the united states offer comprehensive maternal/paternal leave and the burden of child care directly after birth almost always falls directly on women. All of these are things that might drive a woman to leave the workforce or reduce her involvement in it. This doesn't even begin to account for the reasons that women don't choose to enter some of the highest paying fields such as business and STEM where direct sexism plays a role in pushing them out.

Saying that the pay gap is the result of person choice isn't the same thing as saying it doesn't exist or it's not the result of systemic bias.

[–]Nartana 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/12/473992254/on-equal-pay-day-why-the-gender-gap-still-exists

[–]youwontguessthisname 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well using that logic, women still have nothing to base their claim of being underpaid on because they would have no way of knowing what men make....

[–]Soup-Wizard 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps talking to coworkers?

[–]youwontguessthisname 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yea....so we're back to square one. Someone finds out they are being paid less because of their gender they can, and will sue the company. It doesn't happen tho, because women aren't paid less for doing the same amount of work.

[–]Soup-Wizard 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think saying that this is happening 100% of the time everywhere is assuming too much.

[–]caffienatedjedi 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then they sue for Title VII Violations.

[–]AFuckYou -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But they dont.

[–]wisewizard 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lawyer up, unless you live in a shitty country.

[–]YottaWatts91 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then the company is fucked because it's really easy to prove.

[–]SaigaFan 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then it's already against federal law.

[–]PG2009 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then they'll dominate those industries, as employers hire them more and more.

[–]dcredpanda 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or, not have kids. Funny that's deemed not working as hard or a lifestyle choice...

[–]Terribledragon4Hire 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is not much evidence I can find that shows there is a difference. I am sure we can all find individual cases, but that is not sufficient evidence that correlates a systemic issue.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You wouldn't work half as hard as a Zimbabwean woman who walks 10 kilometers everyday with 40kg of goods on her head. God you're self entitled twat.

[–]lucklikethis 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I used to walk 20kms a day at work carrying furniture.
The girls folded cloth for same pay.

Due to seedy men in management some of the girls were even paid more.

Comparing anyone to someone in completely different circumstances is entirely irrational.

[–]CarolinaKiwi -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Awww...it ok...don't be cry!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

7% earnings gap.

[–]Jah_Ith_Ber 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Every job I've seen like cashier at a convenience store, or fast food, or teacher, basically everything that's hourly or government; the position pays all employees the exact same according to a table or formula.

I was a telemarketer in a call center. Everyone, no matter what was paid $14/hour. If you hit your sales metrics you could get a raise of exactly $1/hour after one year of employment. This is how virtually all jobs in the working class work.

When you get higher up in the 50, 60, 70k range and are salaried that's where slight differences show up. Tim might make 60k a year while Sally is making 57k a year. And that's because he either negotiated better, or he works longer hours, or gets better results. His employers have utilized some discretion. For instance, my last job was a 50k a year middle class office job. Every year, company wide, all of corporate would have performance reviews and you had to submit a report on your accomplishments and how you've improved and show your math on how much money you've brought in for the company and defend your request for a raise. Virtually everyone got a 3% raise no matter what.

After that at the C-level (CEO, CFO, CTO, directors) things start to spread out and maybe male CEOs are paid more than women. Could be. Maybe the male CEO of Amazon.com is making way more than the female CEO of Yahoo, or Viacom or whatever. And there are loads more male CEOs than female CEOs so whether you compare all women against all men and get a .77 figure, or whether you control for jobs and hours and get a .97 figure, this is where the bulk of it is coming from.

But the problem is not a gender wars discrepancy between men and women. It's a class issue where people at the top are being paid way the fuck too much money in a game of crony capitalism. Men and women making $10 an hour are both being shit on and pointing the finger at all men (the extreme majority of which belong to the working class and make identical wages as their female co-workers) is asinine. I could not give less of a fuck that women CEOs are only making 50 million a year while male CEOs are making 90 million a year. They are both paid way too much and every effort to correct the wage gap is pointed at the working and lower classes which will only result in men at this level having a wage gap below women, while simultaneously women at the very top have a wage gap below men and then the average looks mathematically clean and everyone celebrates how far we've come.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

crony capitalism

Austrian...

I like you ;)

[–]7446353252589 9 points10 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You are right, but you should still acknowledge the fact that wage gaps DO exist in many workplaces, and is a real problem, but possibly not as prevalent as the data for the "earnings gap" would imply. Its really hard to actually judge how big the wage gaps really are, because they occur mostly in low paying jobs where employees are pressured to keep their wages secret.

Back in high school I had a girlfriend who worked as a life guard at a local gym's pool, where she had worked for 2 years, and she had a total of like 4-5 years experience being a lifeguard. She was not very happy when she learned at a guy doing the same job as her, with less than half the experience and less time working at the same pool was making over a dollar more per hour than her. She didn't make a complaint to her employer, but they nearly fired her anyway when they found out she had asked how much the other guy was making.

[–]Littledipper310 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, but there are a lot of factors that could have gone into that too. That guy could have just asked for more too, and I totally think your gf should have brought it up.

Even if we pass laws to address this, employers can just give people different job titles that pay differently if they really wanted.

[–]YottaWatts91 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I always say this as well!

[–]Greg_W_Allan 105 points106 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Average hours worked by full time employees in my country are 35/wk for women and 44/wk for men. That's your "gap". Average hourly rates of pay differ by about only 1%.

[–]Dnc601 7 points8 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Can you give sources for these? I want to do more reading.

[–]theonedosthree 21 points22 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/mobile/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm

[–]0ne23 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This article says the number is 90% (so 40 hrs vs 44 hrs a week for example)

[–]theonedosthree 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yea, that number is pretty close

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat22.htm

[–]Poepopdestoep 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Shouldn't you ask what country he's from, first?

[–]Dnc601 7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I guess I could, but his country would be apparent from whatever sources he would give me, meaning I wouldn't need to ask for his country if I had his sources.

[–]Greg_W_Allan 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

For those asking I'm Australian and data was sourced from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. I'm a data analyst with three decades of experience and am currently working in the tax field where my primary role is to calculate exact incomes. I DO know what I'm doing and do NOT rely on the analyses of others.

[–]Poepopdestoep 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good to know. Seems like the wage gap is taken literally, but instead it's all relative.

[–]EricAllonde 102 points103 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

I'd like you guys to take a look at the pay gap study that feminists hate the most, so that you can all arm yourselves with it for future discussions:

Korn Ferry HayGroup study March 2016

For years we’ve read bold headlines about the gender pay gap, reporting that around the world men are paid an average of 20% more than women. Our global research confirms this gap but also shows that when compared “like for like”, the gender pay gap reduces to 1.6%.

Put simply a man and a woman doing the same job in the same function and company, get paid almost exactly the same.

This is pretty much the final word on this nonsense.

The study uses data on 8.7 million employees across 33 countries. The data is sourced directly from the companies employing the employees in the study, so it contains more information than government data usually does. That's why the study is able to compare men & women in the same job and with the same level of experience to get a proper apples-to-apples number.

If you put this in front of a feminist they will quickly retreat to their fallback position of, "Oh, well female-dominated industries have lower pay because society values women less...", but at least it will be the end of the "77 cents on the dollar for the same work" idiocy.

[–]aaron2610 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The big company I work at has a "gender diversity" group of 100% women, their own findings was a 2% difference in pay.

Not sure if they were disappointed or happy.

However, they did find that upper management was like 90% male. That is something that should be worked on.

[–]Terribledragon4Hire 401 points402 points  (48 children) | Copy Link

Can also add:

Dirtier jobs

Shorter life span

[–]another-white-male 118 points119 points  (42 children) | Copy Link

add alimony and child custody

[–]MSgtGunny 157 points158 points  (37 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't affect this.

[–]Scarbane 55 points56 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Except that women are heavily favored in child custody cases, and alimony payments tend to come from the parent who doesn't have custody.

[–]MSgtGunny 109 points110 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

But that has nothing to do with a wage or earnings gap since the numbers in studies are before expenses (which includes alimony, etc).

[–]PM_me_your_fistbump 43 points44 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Wrong. If you tell a bunch of men that they have to cut that check every month, or else you could have your work license suspended and be thrown in jail, those men are going to work longer and harder, and be willing to accept worse working conditions and higher risk in exchange for more earnings.

[–]DanksForTheMemories 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Also the women have less time to work because they're home taking care of the kids so they make less

[–]FucksWithGators 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

And that's a personal choice they take, and as such, they make the choice of earning less.

You can also argue it isn't a choice, but it is.

Family, friends, nanny, babsitters, etc can all be called in to help raise a child even if they're a single parent, especially if they are.

[–]ThisOneTimeOnReadit 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Or they could just not have kids.

[–]FucksWithGators 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. Everything is a choice and everyone has to deal with the consequences of each choice.

Personally, I don't want kids (I'm sure a lot of people on Reddit and elsewhere are relieved at that), and so I'll take the stigma of not having children, while at the same time saving tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and be able to do what I want.

[–]jl2121 -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Except that when they work harder and longer for higher earnings, their child support goes up, so I don't really think an argument can be made from a support standpoint in favor of working more.

Source: my child support increases if I start making more money, even if it's just working longer hours.

[–]ThisOneTimeOnReadit 8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you need 50k a year to cover the expenses for your family you will work more to make more money, even if it entails your child support payments going up. Child support may take more money, but you will also make more money. Men paying child support have to work more to make more so they can live.

[–]jl2121 -2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you not see the endless cycle you're creating there, though?

If a man without child support needs to make $40k to live, he will work enough to make $40k. If he is ordered to pay $5k per year in child support, does he work harder and make $45k per year instead? Well now his child support is $7k. So he works harder and now his support is even more.

You can't increase your income to escape the burden of child support, because all it does is increase the burden.

[–]cld8 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You can't increase your income to escape the burden of child support, because all it does is increase the burden.

It may increase the burden, but that doesn't fully offset the extra income. No one has to pay 100% of their extra income in child support.

You can think of it like taxes. The more you make, the more tax you pay. You may go into a higher bracket and pay a higher percentage. But you will still take home more money than you were when your salary was less, because the tax rate is less than 100%.

[–]egoncasteel 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is the fact that if you are the sole parent and you have a second income in the form of child support and alimony (likely not counted as income in these studies) you are probably not working full time.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

edited by /u/spez

[–]MSgtGunny 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're trying to fix the effect instead of the cause. Paying men more for the same job because they may have to pay alimony or child support creates a real wage gap.

[–]TacoOrgy 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No. That's preemptively paying men more which would be an actual wage gap

[–]boolabula 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

What gender are you referring to?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Male.

[–]Jake0024 2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

How does alimony and child support not affect this? With alimony in particular, one spouse earned more so after divorce they pay the one who earned less to make up the difference. It's directly taking money from the higher earner and giving it to the lower earner. Seems pretty relevant to me.

And of course child custody is every bit as relevant as life span, quality of work, and everything else listed. It's a huge factor in quality of life (to say nothing to child support).

[–]boolabula 6 points7 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but what about those women that never got married or have a child? Why do they deserve to earn less?

[–]metaltrite 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

they typically earn more in a lot of cases

[–]Jake0024 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Exactly.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They had more time to invest in their careers and earned more than women who had kids.

[–]kinyutaka 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The issue is the earnings/wage gaps between men and women. The inequity of family law is tangential to that.

On the women's side, they only ask about the hours worked, and not the cost of raising the children or whether they received child support.

The only real question is "Does this female math teacher make the same as this male math teacher?"

[–]Jake0024 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Except that's not what it is, because the 77% figure is really more like "Does this female math teacher make the same as this male construction foreman?"

And no, she doesn't. But he works more hours, has fewer vacation days, and has more demanding work conditions. And if they got divorced, he would have to pay her part of his earnings because of all those reasons he earns more.

I don't see how that's tangential, when these other factors aren't...?

EDIT: What you're saying (math teacher vs math teacher) is what it should be and what most people think it is, but that's not actually how they arrive at the 77% figure.

[–]Littledipper310 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Alimony payer might have to work more

Alimony receiver might have to work less

[–]pardonmeimdrunk 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And while going down this route, the social pressures of men still bearing the responsibility to 'pick up the tab'

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well maybe men should just choose to stay at home, work in a laundry shop, etc.

You have the right to do that you know.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope. If you you were born with a dick you were born with a shovel, no other way.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hence, why this post is stupid.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Quite right.

[–]JackBond1234 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Employers don't really consider a shortened average life span when calculating a wage.

[–]pintocat 211 points212 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

The "different career choices" box should be a lot bigger than the others

[–]JonasBrosSuck 95 points96 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

what do you mean surgeons should make more than librarians, total BS! /s

[–]trickytophat 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

FWIW many librarian positions require a Masters degree and are somewhat coveted. Not saying they earn much but there are better examples for explaining the earnings gap, namely the field of early childhood education, which is one of the lowest paying degrees and is more than 90% female.

[–]Jah_Ith_Ber 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And also discriminatory against men.

I was turned down for a babysitting job for being male. Their ad specifically wanted a German speaking babysitter so I applied thinking I would have a great shot at it because how many people in the US are fluent in German? Practically none. But the woman who answered the phone explicitly stated they only wanted women.

[–]TheBigMcD 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

not at public libraries, at least on the USA west coast.

[–]Blakesta999 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean! Liberians have such a hard time always trying to get those loud kids to shut up! NOT COOL! #MAKEWOMENRICHAGAIN

[–]waffletrampler 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I dont get why this is a bad thing?

[–]Hammaspeikk0 9 points10 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

[–]GermanScrewdriver 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

when women moved into occupations in large numbers, those jobs began paying less even after controlling for education, work experience, skills, race and geography.

So the supply (quantity) of workers increased and they wonder that the price drops?

Economy 101: Demand equals Quantity (Price) - An increase in quantity with no change to demand will decrease the price.

[–]Onithyr 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You do realize that was the desired outcome when companies made the big push to get more women in the workforce, right? If you increase the supply of workers (without an increase in the demand for those workers) you lower their individual value.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Or....keeping women out of the workforce kept supply of workers artificially low and men were overvalued.

Is that what's you're so butt hurt about? That you aren't overvalued and don't have a woman at home to make you pancakes?

[–]Onithyr 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Wait, you knew that supply and demand was the reason for the pay drop, but you tried to pretend it was based on sexism anyway?

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I know it's part of the reason.

[–]Onithyr 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you have any actual evidence to demonstrate that there is any other?

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Just every study that shows how women consistently make less than men.

[–]Onithyr 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Only when you ignore all other variables. There's a reason why economists don't take the wage gap seriously.

I mean, seriously, if the evidence was so apparent then why did you link to something that's easily explained by supply and demand?

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because it's not explained by supply and demand. There's also skill and difficulty and working conditions. Considering women make less overall, woman enter fields that pay less and women make less even when compared job for job?And you seriously don't think one of those factors could possibly be gender bias?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely, but it's also the one I find most concerning. I don't buy into the idea that the difference in gender leads to a difference in cognitive ability that prefers different kinds of career paths. My engineering college is 85% men. There has to be something systemic that continuously drives women away from these career paths. I'm not sure where it comes from, but it's something to consider. Instead of blatantly denouncing the 77% statistic (which I agree is total bunk) I'd love to see that denouncement accompanied by an acknowledgement of the cultural issues that exist within the career path. That is the way to progress, in my opinion.

[–]cld8 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There has to be something systemic that continuously drives women away from these career paths.

I don't think anything drives them "away", but rather they don't feel as much pressure to become breadwinners as men do. In many cultures, a man needs to make sure that he can support himself and his family, so he needs to pick a major that will provide a steady income. Women do not feel this pressure to the same extent.

[–]ThisOneTimeOnReadit -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know, I hate listening to people complain about their problems and it seems like most of my male friends feel the same. A lot of females I know will sit around and talk about that shit all day. I imagine there is some genetic component here, maybe related to breastfeeding and caring for children? Female animals tend to have much larger roles tending children as well. It's most likely not all genetics, but I don't think it's entirely nurture either.

Anyways, if you love talking about peoples problems and caring for children so much, I'm sure you are more likely to take a job like teacher or nurse over engineer.

[–]electricalnoise 136 points137 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

They don't want their career choices to affect their pay, they want our career choices to affect our lifespan, for the same money.

"Yeah you guys can have the dangerous work, we'll just take the money. Oh yeah get over here and lift these boxes for me while you're in here"

[–]El_Kabong_Returns 45 points46 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If the wage gap were really true then why wouldn't women be a much larger majority of the work force? Employers can pay 23% less for the same work.

[–]McFeely_Smackup 106 points107 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The cartoon represents a fundamental failure of understanding the earning gap, and attempting to justify the myth of "wage gap" rather than illustrating the fact that it doesn't exist in the first place.

[–]Ghee_Buttersnaps_ 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How so? It clearly shows the man doing more/different work and getting paid differently, which is where the myth comes from in real life.

[–]Jah_Ith_Ber 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

For it to accurately show that the box labeled "different jobs" should be enormous.

A more appropriate cartoon would be if 10 male horses were lined up at a trough and 7 female horses were lined up at another trough and the female horses said, "Hey, how come their trough has more carrots in it?!"

[–]Ghee_Buttersnaps_ 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The boxes don't even need words on them to make the point. He's literally doing more work by carrying boxes while she carries none.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This. I appreciate the sentiment, but it's incorrect. We cannot give them an inch, and suggesting that there is a discrepancy in the amount of money women are paid for the same hours as men is giving them an inch. They will happily use that to justify more idiotic laws.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I think the guy should still have all the baggage, but the carrots be equal, but it'd be harder to make a quick quip to show what the artist means. Something maybe like "What do you mean why do we get the same amount?"

[–]Lumberingfeather 126 points127 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

You can add longer time spent commuting to and from work, more unsociable hours and later retirement ages too.

[–]Blakesta999 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great points

[–]Oldcheese 26 points27 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Where I live in holland women actually make more on average below the age of 40. Yet somehow no Meninists sprouted up to complain.

[–]zfighter18 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's the same in the US too. Women 18-29 make more on average than men the same age working the same jobs. The trend has been recorded since the 1980s.

[–]magnora7 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are twice as likely to be hired to engineering jobs according to studies, all other things equal.

[–]douglasg14b 30 points31 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This kind of comic only perpetuates the misinformation that a gap of significance actually exists.

The data is misleading as you could compare a women working 35 hours a week to a man working 40 hours a week, and say that she earns 87.5% of what her male counterpart does to push for a higher wage for her while ignoring the actual worked hours difference.

[–]PM_me_your_fistbump 9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Or the man is doing more difficult work, like carrying a bunch of heavy boxes on his back, while the woman has to walk it without the heavy load.

[–]douglasg14b 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's not my point. That seems to push that it's ok to not have equal pay. I'm saying that the pay is already almost equal.

[–]Ghee_Buttersnaps_ 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's very obviously not what the comic is representing. It clearly shows the man doing a different job and being paid differently and the woman complaining that she doesn't get equal pay for less/different work, which is what the myth is based on.

[–]douglasg14b 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I know... did you read my first comment?

[–]Ghee_Buttersnaps_ 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the most simple comics I've ever seen and there's no way to interpret it as perpetuating the wage gap myth. There are only a handful of visual elements, and the comic unambiguously shows a man and a woman receiving unequal pay for unequal work. The comic as it is is a perfect explanation and commentary on the wage gap myth.

[–]blue_horse_shoe 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I had a look at the wage gap in Australia using data from the 2011 Census. I observed a 2% wage gap across all occupations. No matter how far I turned the data ontop of itself, I couldn't get the magical 20-30%.

Where does it come from?

[–]Propaganda4Lunch 8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You jerks are so privileged to work jobs that KILL & INJURE you at a rate a thousand times higher than our jobs.

[–]magnora7 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think some feminists realize that men are also abused by the powerful owners of this country, just as much as women.

[–]captainmustard 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This post is getting brigaded from somewhere hard.

[–]elebrin 49 points50 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Then they blame us for taking on all the boxes in the first place, and bitch about how blue collar labor is going to ruin the environment and how all those industries should be regulated out of existence.

[–]DOUEVNLYFTBRO 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The second issue really has nothing to do with feminism and is irrelevant. That said, I've never heard someone say that specifically, nor do I know of anyone who thinks all blue collar labor is bad for the environment. Much of the industry is bad for the environment, but what does that have to do with the labor itself?

[–]CBERT117 35 points36 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Who is "they"?

[–]blfire 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

don't connect those two issues.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No one blames men for taking all the boxes. We blame you because you think you have all the boxes and don't see all the boxes the women around you are carrying.

[–]BOOTY_POPPN_THIZZLES 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think it's that men don't see the boxes women have, there are a lot of societal burdens women deal with.

The case is that looking at the situation specifically men (who pick more burdensome jobs or choose to ruin their social lives for more money) have burdens that women don't have.

If you see this argument and say, yea well women have X and Y boxes that men don't have, it is irrelevant because it's not focusing on the issue being discussed. Also arguing that women have issues too doesn't make the argument weaker, but that there are also problems with women that need to be fixed as well.

Like saying "oh yea? Well we have it way worse so you should be happy with your shit!" Is fallacious, and not adding anything to discussion.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Like saying "oh yea? Well we have it way worse so you should be happy with your shit!" Is fallacious, and not adding anything to discussion."

I think you pretty much summed up why r/mensrights is ridiculous.

[–]richardcpeterson 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

46% of men negotiate their salaries. 30% of women negotiate their salaries. (source: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553383876).

That leads to a wage gap for similar work performed, in addition to the earnings gap for the reasons in the cartoon.

[–]casemodsalt 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My new job has no women. Working on cell phone towers.

Where are the women at?????

[–]lowsodiummonkey 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Add more dangerous jobs if that hasn't been listed yet.

[–]DolphinsAreOk 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are much, much more likely to be involved in an accident at work http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Accidents_at_work_statistics

[–]zfighter18 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing I hate the most about this is that most women 18-30 working the same jobs generally get higher salaries than men the same age.

[–]stumpdawg 23 points24 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

i can do the same work as you too you know! watch!!

Huunnnn...Ugnnnn...hold on a sec i can lift this. Ugnnnnn...Hunnnnn...just a minute i got this. Hunn....ummm...a little help?!?!?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

*95% as many carrots

[–]zfighter18 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

98.4% as many carrots.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No feminist has been able to explain to me why someone who can lift and carry half of what I can, should be paid as much as i do in a job that involves lifting and carrying.

Add to that the number of jobs--or just tasks within a job--that are dangerous or gross, which most women will flatly refuse to do. So why should someone who cant do as well as I can and who wont do all that I'll do, get paid what I can get paid. If I can or will do 30% more work, i deserve commensurately more pay.

[–]poopyroadtrip 12 points13 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So this brings up a really big question for me no matter what way I look at it.

First, I come from a biologist's background. Biology isn't politically correct. Are men's and women's brains the same or different? It's still not clear depending on whether you're doing MRI scans or brain mapping

Edit: but there are clear anatomical differences of the brains

From a social science perspective, I expect a feminist would look at this comic and state that females have societal burdens that men don't have, such as being encouraged (traditionally) not to pursue math or science, being presented as stupider and dependent on men in our society etc.

From a policy and wage perspective, only the things on the male horse's back are really relevant. But should they be.

I think everyone has their own perspective into this. But I think we should keep an open mind discussing with people you don't necessarily agree with. It's good to talk things out like mature adults. To open minded discussion!

[–]Settlers6 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I come from a psychobiologist background, and yes, the brains are definitely different. The brain-to-body mass ratio of men is higher on average than that of women: if a man and woman share the same body mass, the man's brain will be bigger, generally speaking. We don't yet know what that means or affects. Anyway, wikipedia has a lot of examples of differences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

Your article was mostly talking about how it is hard to tell if a brain is male or female, by looking at only the brain. That's true, because there is a lot of overlap. But that does not translate to "we don't know if there are differences". On average, they are definitely different.

[–]poopyroadtrip 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not really clear on the specifics because we didn't go into it that much in my classes. What the profs told us was that basically there are accepted differences between male and female brains. In what ways they are different and to what extend it has downstream effects, is, I think, what is being debated.

[–]Settlers6 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In what ways they are different and to what extend it has downstream effects, is, I think, what is being debated.

That's pretty much it.

[–]pastsurprise 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Specifically to the picture though--as a 230 lb. male body builder, I am allotted the same cafeteria stipend as my 85 lb. Asian lady secretary. Bugs the shit out of me.

[–]Mentioned_Videos 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

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Goodbye Horses - Q Lazzarus 3 - Cue Goodbye Horses
Is the Gender Pay Gap Real? 1 - wages for women based on the same jobs worked in the same field for the same amount of hours are 8% lower than men
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[–]monkeyfullofbarrels 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love how everyone is surprised or outraged that you can't discuss this issue with a ten word blanket statement and a line drawing.

[–]America-Numba-1 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

petition to take women out of the workplace so there are fewer people for the same amount of jobs and a man will be able to provide for a family again due to the increase in wages

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fuck the wage gap, fuck it in its ass.

You want a wage gap? Try my pants on...

My coworkers all make at least $4/hour more then I do.

I get no vacation, no sick, no personal days at all. None. My coworkers have a generous package.

My healthcare is the bare minimum that passes Obamacare's muster. I pay $50/weekly for the privilege of getting almost nothing at all. My coworkers have terrific healthcare.

What is going on? I am a contract employee.

Fuck women and there wage gap myth. I wish that was my problem.

I know no one is reading this, but it just keeps getting better. Our families healthcare is going to cost $1600/month under COBRA. I am trying to figure out what Obamacare is going to cost, but Obamacare won't tell me. I give them a shit ton of personal, private information only to get to a roadblock telling me to not bother coming back to the site until after I have lost my healthcare insurance.

I CAN'T EVEN GET A PRICE OUT OF OBAMACARE. My other options are no healthcare, $1600/month, or health insurance through my contractor that I have already identified as a scam.

And I have to work just as hard if not harder then all of my coworkers who are making more then I am. A lot more. $1600/month more.

God damned I am pissed.

[–]CyberMonkeyNinja 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What decade is the analogy from? If the majority of work relied on physical labor and working hard, sure horses might be a good analogy. But most work today is done by machines operated by people, maybe. Physical strength and stamina are less important today the anytime in recorded history. People don’t move heavy things they use a forklift. A 200 lb guy and a 100 girl can move the same 5 ton of material in the same time because they are both pressing pedal, buttons and moving levers. Implying most work is physical labor in the US is as out dated as the idea that horse provide considerable labor in the modern economy.

[–]hateitorleaveit 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

now pay for my dinner too btw

[–]Rex9 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The Female horse should be pudgy/fat to properly represent the constituency.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 1 point2 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

Not that anyone here will read this, but:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

[–]ifelsedowhile 23 points24 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

I guess they didn't teach you about supply and demand in your gender studies classes so you automatically think it's about 'discrimination'.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (23 children) | Copy Link

How does supply and demand explain how men entering a field makes wages go up?

[–]EricAllonde 20 points21 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Sigh. This dross again. OK, alright...

explain how men entering a field makes wages go up?

This article only points to one example of that:

Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.

The answer is right there in the text: in the early days of computers, (mostly male) programmers would write out their code on paper and give it to (mostly female) operators, who would sit at the keyboards of their card punch machines and produce the card decks.

Then we got multi-user systems, individual monitors & keyboards, text editing software and high level compilers. Programmers became far more productive, providing they were able to refocus away from low level coding to instead focusing on algorithms and letting the compiler do the grunt work. Oh, and they no longer needed anyone to make up card decks of course, so all those women in secretarial roles were out of a job.

But there's nothing stopping women from becoming programmers if they want.

So this claim is a fail. Sorry.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 -1 points0 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Ok so now that men do a job, you can explain its difficulty and value, whereas when women did it it was menial grunt work?

Gotcha.

[–]EricAllonde 23 points24 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Do you really think that transcribing code that's written out longhand onto a card deck is equally as challenging a task as coding in an object oriented language?

If you do then that's your problem right there.

Sally from the typing pool earns less than Bob the coder for a very good reason. But if Sally wants to do a degree, get trained up and apply for Bob's job, there's nothing stopping her.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 8 points9 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

I think no matter what jobs are compared, you'll come up with a reason why the one that has more women is less valuable.

[–]EricAllonde 8 points9 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Oh, don't be so butthurt, dear.

Are you a socialist? Sounds like it, and certainly most feminists are. That's likely because you have few marketable skills and instead of making the effort to acquire some, you'd rather just complain about the fact that a pay differential exists at all. 'Why oh why can't they just pay everyone exactly the same, like they did in that nirvana of wealth and prosperity known as the Soviet Union?'

Your approach is ineffective, but hey: you do you.

[–]Hammaspeikk0 6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I'm neither butt hurt nor a socialist. Just a person who can acknowledge that bias exists.

[–]EricAllonde 16 points17 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Just a person who can acknowledge that bias exists

...but can't grasp the concept that more skills increases a person's value on the job market, irrespective of their gender.

Sorry about that.

[–]meheeeen -3 points-2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

high fiving you for this comment

[–]Hammaspeikk0 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I love this place. It's like Junior High.

[–]meheeeen 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

in the sense that misguided privileged pre-teens with unrestricted internet access want so badly for their angst to be validated that they invent oppression of themselves while ignoring real oppression of actual marginalized peoples? that was a big part of my middle school experience

[–]mares13 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Male RNs make more than female RNs in the same jobs. This was reported in a national study this year. It's real.

[–]movieman56 28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you are gonna be in the sub and provide a narrative opposite to what's presented, might want to throw in facts and sources such as that study to actually prove your point lest you be down voted to oblivion

[–]maxscorpionmax 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you mean they are paid more per hour of work, or do you mean they make more annually?

Because chances are, they are paid the exact same salary, but men work more hours in a year and so end up having higher earnings.

[–]sillymod 40 points41 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Stop making things up.

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-male-nurses-get-paid-more

When you fabricate issues, you make yourself look like an idiot.

[–]mortiferus -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Interesting stuff, but note that the article mostly contains 'one reason may be that X', not actual data, the exception beeing

male nurses are more likely than female nurses to have a doctoral degree, more likely to work evening or night shifts, and more likely to be immigrants."

[–]knightshade2 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are several issues with that report on survey data. It is problematic given that everything was base do self reported data and participation and the sample population was overwhelmingly female. I have not seen a good description of their methods for adjusting either. Given the self reported data and limitations of the surveys, i suspect they could not have been particularly thorough in their calculation of adjusted income.

[–]1LtKaiser 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Perfect and accurate. Why don't they put a deflated bag on the female horse that says "3 pregnancies in 5 years"

[–]andysaurus_rex 16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

maternity leave is a separate issue that should be addressed as well, but that doesn't discredit this

[–]1LtKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just mean leaving work for what ever reason you chose to bestow on yourself then complain that everyone got ahead of you because, guess where they were? At work! Lol Hence the emptyish bag instead of a full bag that is actually a burden on men's side.

[–]ErnestJ 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wage gap isn't even real

[–]Theeeantifeminist 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll just leave this there

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/09/genevieve-wood/what-pay-gap-young-women-out-earn-men-cities-gop-p/

[–]Nulono 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel like I've seen this here before.

[–]orangesndlimes 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

TriggeredREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[–]Pvt-Snafu 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Share the baggage of one between the two and this meme can also be applied to the salary difference between employees.

[–]ZimbaZumba 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is an earnings gap, not a wage gap. People should remember this.

Men earn more because they put more effort into doing so. This is not a value judgement, just a statement of fact. The "Wage Gap" movement is essentially trying to get women to work harder under less rewarding less circumstances. People should also remember this.

Women should beware of this catchy little noun phrase "Wage Gap", it is an attempt to increase the labor pool at the expense of their quality of life.

[–]thesilkroadtrucker -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I thought the wage gap was based on a male and female with the same job and the female makes less.

[–]EricAllonde 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's framed that way for propaganda reasons, but it doesn't happen.

When you compare men & women doing the same job, with the same amount of experience and working the same hours, you find they earn the same.

[–]ColinHalfhand -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are right. OP is what the kids like to call a straw man.

[–]vnotfound -4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women want equality. They want the same working conditions, same number of days off, all that. And the same wage.

[–]alclarkey 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No they don't. They go out and choose less dangerous jobs, less dirty jobs, less jobs with overtime, they take more time off than men, and now they demand the same wage as men with those conditions. That is anything but equality.

[–]Entropy- -5 points-4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I also love how the female horse is stating something but puts a question mark at the end like how some girls do?

[–]akenthusiast 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

DAE girls are bad?

[–]Entropy- 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That wasn't my intention. I just thought it was funny

[–]afbik -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For really Men doing all the work while woman complain is athing they need to stop making us do. When will he 3D printer pussys. Be reAdy thats what I want to know.

[–]Frontfart -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

More productivity.....

[–]Lupin_The_Fourth -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great example

[–]Unpacer -5 points-4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It goes to 6-8% when you consider those things, no? I can't we remember where I saw this :/

[–]EricAllonde 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually it goes to 1.6% when you do an apples-to-apples comparison:

http://www.haygroup.com/en/our-library/whitepapers/gender-pay-gap/

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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