Yes I do. Because, as the video pointed out, men are disposable. Society couldn't care less what or how much you talk about your feelings, because society DOES NOT CARE ABOUT MEN.
I'm not terribly spiteful, that's an odd thing to say about me. Maybe. An "opposing person". A person who opposes. But what? Not indiscriminately. I oppose many thing, 'tis true. I oppose stupidity, feminism, political correctness, natalism, theism, dairy, soy and SJWs. That list is, of course, not exclusive.
What is also amusing is you have delved into my comment history. It goes back over NINE YEARS and you cannot tell if I am male or female. You have a fifty-fifty chance, right? (I am not some sort of odd intersex individual)
So I don't think you'll be able to change his/her mind.
Very true, and it seem short sighted of feminists to insist "men must fix" whatever problem comes up, yet those children you pointed out are not receiving the training and tools that a father passes down to his sons to fix those very problems.
That's a dangerous game to play, considering that men tend to value respect more than anything else.
That is a damn good point. The only way to win is not to play the game. At this time, I'm not sure how best to get the proverbial ball rolling.
You think all the men who are quite justifiably upset by this hateful ad are 'insecure guys who thinks the world is out to get them? Where on Earth did you get that from?
I didn’t get triggered by a few buzz words and ignore what was being said.
Buzz words had nothing to do with it. It was the very message itself that is the issue.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I am glad that people are upvoting even if they disagree, since you are contributing to dialogue.
Let's be real, though: the Gillette ads were born in a boardroom. They're a cynical ploy for publicity, and not at all a persuasive device. I think that everyone who would see the ads in 2019 have already "picked a side", or developed their own ideas about all of this. Consider that the most enraged persons are radicals on either side who only get their news incidentally from their facebook or twitter feeds.
Honestly, what about the commercials is meant to be persuasive? The vanishingly small demographic of toxic people who can be convinced by a razor commercial not to be a douche are not going to be convinced by the tone of the Gillette commercials. They are so over the top so as to be surrealist. I was honestly not sure if they were satire when I saw them originally; maybe I'm still not sure. That is not persuasive to the people who need to be persuaded, i.e. people who actually say "boys will be boys" and women are second-class citizens.
Let's not forget that Gillette also sells women's products, and has been painted as sexist for years due to their alleged "pink tax". Their ads are really a cynical gesture: they are beating drums and bleating about toxic masculinity to get into the news and claw back some market share, in my opinion. Corporations are inherently rational actors: when one does something this inflammatory, it's almost always calculated.
So I think it's not even worthwhile to address them as a legitimate message. At best, they indicate the state of things, i.e. that a corporation considers it safe to shit on approximately half the population.
What's frustrating to relatively neutral men (like myself, though I consider myself left-leaning), is that in the discourse it's been acceptable for the last decade to demonize "masculinity" in basically any form; this was in fact the purpose of the "toxic masculinity" label. People like yourself will say "it's a fair message, why is everyone upset, people need to hear this, what's bad about it", or more extremely "if you're upset it's because you're part of the problem" and "it's only about the ones who need to hear it", etc. The argument becomes "what, are you a rape apologist? do you hate women?" instead of about the nature of the blanket statements towards men.
To you, as a woman, it may seem worthwhile to echo these messages into infinity (to protect women [and men I guess sometimes]) at the expense of masculine identity period, but an entire generation of boys are growing up thinking they have some kind of monster living inside them they can't control that just hurts others. When they question it, they are labeled sexist. It's the 21st century version of the ads in the 1900's that implied women should be only demure homemakers, except more vicious.
I appreciate your really gracious responses, especially considering my initial response wasn't very friendly at first. Also given how combative reddit comments can be in general! I see this response must have taken you some time to compose so I am grateful that you thought to respond so thoroughly :). Sorry for being late in addressing it.
I didn't view these ads with those hashtags in my mind because, to me, they're not related. But reading here, and learning, I can see how the Gillette ad can absolutely be viewed as an attempt to normalize those abhorrent hashtags.
It's really great that you appreciate that point of view, whether or not you totally agree (I'm not saying you do or should). But, I think that is exactly the heart of the matter for many men, especially younger ones. They've come of age feeling like they've been beaten over the head with this (occasionally hateful) rhetoric. They are of course the ones who need to hear this the most since the intent is to positively reshape masculine identity -- but often the messages aren't actually made by or for them (i.e. persuasively or compassionately), not to mention that they don't actually get a voice in this redefinition of their own collective identity.
Seemingly-dissenting opinion is just not often tolerated. The dialogue becomes really polarized and hostile virtually instantly, because people start shouting past each other without any assumption of good faith. It's assumed that anyone who is critical of the message is a proponent for toxic masculinity and misogyny, when they often might already agree in principle. Who deliberately condones misogyny or sexual violence? Who of those people actually considers themselves a sexist? I think the result is that the conversation now is pretty unbalanced and lacks nuance. I think that is why this sub exists, in part, and why it's so divisive on Reddit. (This is all just my opinion.)
You sound like a really thoughtful and mature person. Thank you for having a frank dialogue with me despite my initial tone, and really considering what I had to say. Whatever your actual opinions, it's wonderful that you are seeking out perspective and dialoguing! I hope be more like you in these ways -- you set a great example. If it's not too inappropriate to say, I'm sure your son is a good person and will be fine with you as an example.
Good deeds done for bad reasons are still good deeds.
I agree, but I think you are overlooking my actual point. The messages are obviously good, but I take issue about it really being much of a good deed.
I don't think it was meant to be persuasive. Think about the surrealist, satirized elements; the endless fathers at grills in succession chanting "boys will be boys" while their sons battle in front of them. The people who are undecided or who actively disagree aren't going to be convinced by that.
So if it wasn't meant to be persuasive, then what was it? Just an ad, virtue signalling. Like more echoes in an echo chamber. I think the people they were really persuading were women. If you read the article I posted, they have been unpopular with socially-minded women for a long time and I think they were hoping to make that up.
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good mod
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Dead wrong. If you believe that, then you are expressly buying into the bullshit Gillette is only too happy to feed you.
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Yes I do. Because, as the video pointed out, men are disposable. Society couldn't care less what or how much you talk about your feelings, because society DOES NOT CARE ABOUT MEN.
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Forget about society. Look at what you just wrote.
You are buying into the crap Gillette is feeding you. "Be a better man, because right now men suck"
What Gillette needs to realize is that men are great just the way they are, and to stop with the shaming tactics.
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Ha! Most amusing. This post made my day.
I'm not terribly spiteful, that's an odd thing to say about me. Maybe. An "opposing person". A person who opposes. But what? Not indiscriminately. I oppose many thing, 'tis true. I oppose stupidity, feminism, political correctness, natalism, theism, dairy, soy and SJWs. That list is, of course, not exclusive.
What is also amusing is you have delved into my comment history. It goes back over NINE YEARS and you cannot tell if I am male or female. You have a fifty-fifty chance, right? (I am not some sort of odd intersex individual)
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Very true, and it seem short sighted of feminists to insist "men must fix" whatever problem comes up, yet those children you pointed out are not receiving the training and tools that a father passes down to his sons to fix those very problems.
That is a damn good point. The only way to win is not to play the game. At this time, I'm not sure how best to get the proverbial ball rolling.
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So you agree with the message Gillette is sending?
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Wow. That was your take-away from the ad?
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You think all the men who are quite justifiably upset by this hateful ad are 'insecure guys who thinks the world is out to get them? Where on Earth did you get that from?
Buzz words had nothing to do with it. It was the very message itself that is the issue.
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Thanks for sharing your opinion. I am glad that people are upvoting even if they disagree, since you are contributing to dialogue.
Let's be real, though: the Gillette ads were born in a boardroom. They're a cynical ploy for publicity, and not at all a persuasive device. I think that everyone who would see the ads in 2019 have already "picked a side", or developed their own ideas about all of this. Consider that the most enraged persons are radicals on either side who only get their news incidentally from their facebook or twitter feeds.
Honestly, what about the commercials is meant to be persuasive? The vanishingly small demographic of toxic people who can be convinced by a razor commercial not to be a douche are not going to be convinced by the tone of the Gillette commercials. They are so over the top so as to be surrealist. I was honestly not sure if they were satire when I saw them originally; maybe I'm still not sure. That is not persuasive to the people who need to be persuaded, i.e. people who actually say "boys will be boys" and women are second-class citizens.
Let's not forget that Gillette also sells women's products, and has been painted as sexist for years due to their alleged "pink tax". Their ads are really a cynical gesture: they are beating drums and bleating about toxic masculinity to get into the news and claw back some market share, in my opinion. Corporations are inherently rational actors: when one does something this inflammatory, it's almost always calculated.
So I think it's not even worthwhile to address them as a legitimate message. At best, they indicate the state of things, i.e. that a corporation considers it safe to shit on approximately half the population.
What's frustrating to relatively neutral men (like myself, though I consider myself left-leaning), is that in the discourse it's been acceptable for the last decade to demonize "masculinity" in basically any form; this was in fact the purpose of the "toxic masculinity" label. People like yourself will say "it's a fair message, why is everyone upset, people need to hear this, what's bad about it", or more extremely "if you're upset it's because you're part of the problem" and "it's only about the ones who need to hear it", etc. The argument becomes "what, are you a rape apologist? do you hate women?" instead of about the nature of the blanket statements towards men.
To you, as a woman, it may seem worthwhile to echo these messages into infinity (to protect women [and men I guess sometimes]) at the expense of masculine identity period, but an entire generation of boys are growing up thinking they have some kind of monster living inside them they can't control that just hurts others. When they question it, they are labeled sexist. It's the 21st century version of the ads in the 1900's that implied women should be only demure homemakers, except more vicious.
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I appreciate your really gracious responses, especially considering my initial response wasn't very friendly at first. Also given how combative reddit comments can be in general! I see this response must have taken you some time to compose so I am grateful that you thought to respond so thoroughly :). Sorry for being late in addressing it.
It's really great that you appreciate that point of view, whether or not you totally agree (I'm not saying you do or should). But, I think that is exactly the heart of the matter for many men, especially younger ones. They've come of age feeling like they've been beaten over the head with this (occasionally hateful) rhetoric. They are of course the ones who need to hear this the most since the intent is to positively reshape masculine identity -- but often the messages aren't actually made by or for them (i.e. persuasively or compassionately), not to mention that they don't actually get a voice in this redefinition of their own collective identity.
Seemingly-dissenting opinion is just not often tolerated. The dialogue becomes really polarized and hostile virtually instantly, because people start shouting past each other without any assumption of good faith. It's assumed that anyone who is critical of the message is a proponent for toxic masculinity and misogyny, when they often might already agree in principle. Who deliberately condones misogyny or sexual violence? Who of those people actually considers themselves a sexist? I think the result is that the conversation now is pretty unbalanced and lacks nuance. I think that is why this sub exists, in part, and why it's so divisive on Reddit. (This is all just my opinion.)
You sound like a really thoughtful and mature person. Thank you for having a frank dialogue with me despite my initial tone, and really considering what I had to say. Whatever your actual opinions, it's wonderful that you are seeking out perspective and dialoguing! I hope be more like you in these ways -- you set a great example. If it's not too inappropriate to say, I'm sure your son is a good person and will be fine with you as an example.
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I agree, but I think you are overlooking my actual point. The messages are obviously good, but I take issue about it really being much of a good deed.
I don't think it was meant to be persuasive. Think about the surrealist, satirized elements; the endless fathers at grills in succession chanting "boys will be boys" while their sons battle in front of them. The people who are undecided or who actively disagree aren't going to be convinced by that.
So if it wasn't meant to be persuasive, then what was it? Just an ad, virtue signalling. Like more echoes in an echo chamber. I think the people they were really persuading were women. If you read the article I posted, they have been unpopular with socially-minded women for a long time and I think they were hoping to make that up.
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I’m so glad my mind doesn’t operate like yours.
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[–]Kvasirona 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SadFatElephant 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]XenonNade 11 points12 points13 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]synapomorpheus 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Grrr_Meh_Huh 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]mattmo59 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]VioletteToussaint 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]turbulance4 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]CPWNERJ 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]life_is_cheap 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Echelion77 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Uqtpa 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]goodmod[S,M] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]EntireFeature 7 points8 points9 points (21 children) | Copy Link
[–]Dracci 16 points17 points18 points (20 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils -3 points-2 points-1 points (19 children) | Copy Link
[–]MahouShoujoLumiPnzr 9 points10 points11 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils -3 points-2 points-1 points (12 children) | Copy Link
[–]MahouShoujoLumiPnzr 5 points6 points7 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils -5 points-4 points-3 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]MahouShoujoLumiPnzr 5 points6 points7 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils -4 points-3 points-2 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]RamsayBolton444 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]MahouShoujoLumiPnzr 7 points8 points9 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]We_Hold_These_Truths 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]We_Hold_These_Truths 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Steadmils 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]We_Hold_These_Truths 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]g11mz1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Doing my part, Just bought the DollarShaveClub starter pack yesterday
[–]Dembalar_Nine 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Whatchagonnadowhen 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]KorisRust 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]toughgetsgoing 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Cyrusk4 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]GrinninGremlin 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]InsertANameHeree 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Outis-99 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]turbodogger 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SpaceballsTheHandle 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]neofiter 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]neightdog23 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]SteerJock 29 points30 points31 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RapeMeToo 3 points4 points5 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Punkula -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]RapeMeToo 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]jason2306 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]theninja94 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]DecentRabbit -2 points-1 points0 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]superhobo666 20 points21 points22 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+]DecentRabbit -11 points-10 points-9 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[+]flyingwombat211 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Its ok to have feelings!
But why you mad bro?
[–]DecentRabbit -5 points-4 points-3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[+]flyingwombat211 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
my point is you can't tell someone its ok to express their feelings than get mad at them for doing so.
[–]DecentRabbit -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mirrodin1990 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]NickyDanielle 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]dickthecowboy 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Cuco_1 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]orwiad10 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]pretzelzetzel -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]acemantura -6 points-5 points-4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]iwantmoregaming -6 points-5 points-4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]TheNemesis501 -24 points-23 points-22 points (17 children) | Copy Link
[–]AmAttorneyPleaseHire 29 points30 points31 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[+]Austiro -12 points-11 points-10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[+]DialecticMyAss -13 points-12 points-11 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ricwulf 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]ThoseIrishJews1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
The gillette ad literally showed a dozen men stopping bad things from happening. What ad did you watch?
[–]AmAttorneyPleaseHire 15 points16 points17 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pascals_blazer 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]t765234 -8 points-7 points-6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ricwulf 1 point2 points3 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]t765234 -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ricwulf 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]t765234 -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]marksiwelforever -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ricwulf 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]marksiwelforever 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Austiro -24 points-23 points-22 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Ricwulf 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoadDoggFL 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]superhobo666 19 points20 points21 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]RoadDoggFL -12 points-11 points-10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]sweetsweetcentipede -11 points-10 points-9 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 5 points6 points7 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]sweetsweetcentipede -2 points-1 points0 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 3 points4 points5 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]sweetsweetcentipede -2 points-1 points0 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]sweetsweetcentipede 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]ricardoconqueso 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]theBrineySeaMan -6 points-5 points-4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]HoldEmToTheirWord -20 points-19 points-18 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]TehFormula 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Pake1000 -9 points-8 points-7 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 5 points6 points7 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[+]Pake1000 -6 points-5 points-4 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 3 points4 points5 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pake1000 -1 points0 points1 point (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 3 points4 points5 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pake1000 -2 points-1 points0 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Pake1000 -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Basshead404 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[+]alc0 -32 points-31 points-30 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Kettellkorn 17 points18 points19 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[+]alc0 -11 points-10 points-9 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]HolyTak 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]alc0 -3 points-2 points-1 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Nicci_Napalm 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]alc0 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Zombiehype -20 points-19 points-18 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]TehFormula 11 points12 points13 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]KiloYankee5E1F 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]tacklebox -19 points-18 points-17 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]TehFormula 13 points14 points15 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[+]tacklebox -15 points-14 points-13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]TehFormula 9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]happyhyde -18 points-17 points-16 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]iainmf 15 points16 points17 points (0 children) | Copy Link