When feminists quote the 77 cents on the dollar wage gap myth, without any details, they're trying to imply all 23% is due to discrimination. It's a dirty tactic that I wish the "good" feminists would call out.

EpicJ · 2012-10-03T20:40:00+00:00

It's easy saying that but a lot of feminism relies on the fact women get "payed less" even when they accept it's due to personal choice rather then a conspiracy to pay women less, then men still get blamed for "forcing" women into those lower paying roles and jobs

SSJAmes · 2012-10-03T21:18:30+00:00

Every time I try to appeal to the casual feminists in /r/feminism to stand up against the extremists that make them look bad, I get censored.

Kuato2012 · 2012-10-04T01:44:34+00:00

It's a dirty tactic that I wish the "good" feminists would call out.

I agree entirely. If the bullshit claims within feminism were called out "from the inside" more often, I might still consider myself a feminist. A big part of my disillusionment was due to the moderates ignoring or providing cover for the extremists, which gives the impression that the extremist attitudes are rampant. But then again, I know why they don't often speak up... the result is usually getting censored and/or banned.

Which leads me to my second point. In order to not be accused of the same, MRAs need to be vigilant against extremism and misogyny within the MRM. People already like to poison the MRM well with those accusations, so we have to work doubly hard to fight them. To /MR's credit, the self-criticism here looks much better here than in feminist forums I've been to. There's always going to be some circle jerking in a forum like this, but I've often seen people here call out posters on their bullshit when it crops up.

(I feel like a jackass for telling people "how to MRM" when I've only just arrived a month ago, but I've had some beer, so there's my $0.02 anyway. Also, I found my name on a SRS blacklist, so I guess I've earned full MRA status? :D)

PacmanWasALangolier · 2012-10-03T21:37:32+00:00

The wage gap doesn't really exist. In some areas, women actually make more.

DavidByron · 2012-10-04T00:10:23+00:00

It's not a dirty tactic it's lying. It's lying to create a conspiracy theory that frames all men as evil assholes who love to oppress women. And your so-called good feminists love to pull this same shit. In fact they're more likely to be the ones going on about it.

And don't think they are speaking from ignorance either. They know they are lying and if you demonstrate that you know what they are saying is a lie they will just start to talk about something else without ever acknowledging their lie.

My suggestion on the wage gap is explain to them that you know very well their figure does not represent a comparison of men and women working the same job. They will try to change the subject (probably to claiming that women are discriminated in hiring or something), but don't let them. Ask them if they knew that the figure they quoted was wrong when they said it.

borderlinebadger · 2012-10-04T04:10:48+00:00

No one has the backbone to call them out.

I listen to NPR everyday because I have a long commute.

They never pass up the opportunity to claim the 77 cents to the dollar and routinely say sexist things and claim there is a war on woman.

Just the other day there was a discussion on a fire in a factory in a third world country.

The host, some bitch, said, "There was a fire in a factory in New York, and most of who were killed were, woman!"

I almost shit myself. She said it as if it was some grave thing that just needed to be said. It makes me sick knowing she thinks of herself so grand. I hate NPR, but I listen to it all the time.

Tigerantilles · 2012-10-04T07:40:15+00:00

Had a professor bring this up in a class I had to take for "correlated curriculum". I asked her to show causation not correlation, and she could provide no proof. I asked her to show how they got that figure, she could provide no explanation.

It's a bullshit stat, and should be called out at every opportunity.

Gingor · 2012-10-03T23:24:00+00:00

If feminists actually called out the bullshit that was spread by their own movement, there would be no feminism!

ENTP · 2012-10-03T23:10:29+00:00

The U.S. Department of Labor has already determined that likely none of it is caused by discrimination.

A truth further upheld by the fact that unmarried, single, childless women outearn their male colleagues of the same persuasion.

ThePigman · 2012-10-04T02:08:41+00:00

The "good" feminists are both busy doing something else.

toblotron · 2012-10-04T03:20:52+00:00

Look up the consad report. It reports the finding of an independent study commissioned under the Bush administration to determine the cause of the wage gap. The study did not define an explicit reason, but they did conclude that the gap is not because of discrimination. In fact most women in the same positions make more than their male counterparts.

The study pointed toward life choices as the main cause of the wage gap, simply meaning women choose professions that pay less money. In college I studied engineering and business, the two highest paying degrees my school offered. Engineering was 90% men, business was about 70%. I dated a few ladies that are now teachers; their classes were 80% women. Case closed.

This is what I bring up when I get into it with some preachy feminist.

2012-10-04T07:35:52+00:00

There are no feminists who will do that. The pay gap is gospel to them.

altmehere · 2012-10-03T22:22:07+00:00

The problem with a movement that's too cohesive (even if it's members don't believe the same thing) is that nobody has any reason to call anyone out.

Feminists certainly don't agree on every issue, but I think they have every incentive not to speak out against their own: they might not be accepted anymore; they wouldn't receive any of the benefits of the stances of those who are more extreme (even if they don't agree with the 77 cents on the dollar figure, the benefit of corrective action might outweigh the benefit of being truthful to some individuals); and apparently even the threat of violence as we've heard of with Erin Pizzey.

rightsbot · 2012-10-03T20:18:19+00:00

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2012-10-04T05:04:35+00:00

This article made me think:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-humanity-desperately-wants-monsters-to-be-real/

Patriarchy and discrimination are the monsters here.

kazagistar · 2012-10-04T06:55:23+00:00

I hear the studies where they give the same resume, but with a man or a woman name, and men get significantly higher offers. I hear 77% less and less these days.

Gamerp4 · 2012-10-04T17:39:00+00:00

They wont call out this NEVER, your just day dreaming thats all.

exiledcoyote · 2012-10-03T22:38:52+00:00

I am actually having this debate now. It is due to having other concerns later on in life like children, or not working full time, taking more sick days, all the way to there being less women than men in that particular field.

When viewed as an average, of course the group with the higher numbers is going to appear to make more money.

2012-10-04T01:14:20+00:00

Even the good feminist believe it so why would they call it out? Every time I brought up why there is a wage gap all the hard facts get ignored and its always discrimination again women no matter what is said.

rebuildingMyself · 2012-10-04T05:16:32+00:00

Yeah this is a big circlejerk topic in r/politics last few days.

littlebear1130 · 2012-10-04T07:47:40+00:00

interesting little bit I was listening to the radio and heard an author talk about her research that showed in the next five years women will make more than men.

kruiseKontrol · 2012-10-04T07:56:25+00:00

In my humble opinion it's a huge waste of your precious time and energy debating feminists. You'd be better off simply informing and waking up your fellow man.

Incendio88 · 2012-10-04T11:38:04+00:00

60% of statistic are right 40% of the time

BuffaloBounce · 2012-10-04T17:15:40+00:00

I actually have been paid less than male coworkers but I never cite this "statistic". I get paid less because I'm not assertive, I'm uncomfortable asking for raises and I refuse to claim proficiency in a skill set that I don't have. If I have a rudimentary knowledge of something, I will say so, whereas my male coworkers will claim years of experience.

It took me years to figure that out. I guess honesty has no place in job interviews.

preved · 2012-10-04T20:00:59+00:00

1) Forcing business to pay equal amount for the same position will put individuals who does not work extra hours, take less risks, does not push as aggressively as others for better results on a weak spot (essentially it means, they will be fired).

So, if some private business hires men and pays them X, then hires women for the same position and pays them 0.77*X what would happen? Government will ask private business to pay man and women the same?

Suppose, government indeed will ask to increase women's pay to X or decrease men's pay to 0.77*X. What will happen next? Most likely private business would fire women. Private business made this decision based on anticipated outcome of the worker, which also bases on historical observations. Asking to pay more to the workers who, as per business view, are not worth the money is, basically, asking to make wrong business decision.

2) Individuals, regardless of gender, are not equal in terms of productivity and results even on the same position.

If genders were reversed and men get 0.77*X of what women get in this particular private business, we would think that it's because these particular women are so much better workers than these particular men. It happens all the time: more experienced, knowledgeable and hardworking individuals usually get paid more.

So, why is it OK to assume that women can be better workers than men, but it's not OK to assume the opposite?

RomeFlower · 2012-10-04T07:45:41+00:00

Do "good" feminista exist?

clip27 · 2012-10-03T21:26:19+00:00

There is usually still a wage gap that cannot be corrected for by different types of jobs and qualifications for the job, hours worked, and lifestyle choices. Discrimination against women is still pretty well documented. I thought this article was great, "The Myth of the Male Decline" on the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-male-decline.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0, and wanted to share it on a men's rights board. And this one, too, discussing university professors' bias against women in hiring and salary offer: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/science/bias-persists-against-women-of-science-a-study-says.html

SheriffBart42 · 2012-10-04T07:20:44+00:00

This is the same thing as moderate Islam calling out jihadists. Don't hold your breath.