Why is feminism not the answer to overcoming "toxic masculinty?"

76 points28 commentssubmitted by mhandannaConfirmed MRA to r/AskTheMRAs

Disclaimer: Feminism is not a unibody. However, we cannot deny that the a certin type and the ones who "matter" are the ones who promote "toxic masulinity" by creating and influencing laws (often entirely gender specific by name laws too); are in the media (e.g. Guardian articles getting 10,000,000 plus views); and who fund and run organisations rather than a more silent crowd. For those in the silent crowd who do not feel like what is written below is a fair critiscm of their beliefs, please speak up, get your voices out there, so you are the loudest voices of feminism.

Feel free to disagree. I OPENY INVITE CRITISICM OF IDEAS AND WELCOME CHANING MY MIND. Free speech is the corner stone of modern society (hint hint certain reddits feminism and menslib biggest offenders).

PART 1: FEMINSIM OFTEN SHAMES MEN FOR EXPRESSING THEIR VIEWS

PART 2: FEMINISM ACTUALLY PROMOTES GENDER NORMS AND TRADITIONALISM, EVEN MAKING THIS INTO LAW, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING AGAINST IT

"PART 1: FEMINSIM OFTEN SHAMES MEN FOR EXPRESSING THEIR VIEWS

One frequently touted benefit of feminism for men is that it frees them from their gender roles like the stigma of crying. However, one go-to method for mocking or attacking men is to label them cry-babies, whiners, complainers, or man-children, labels that clearly have roots in shaming of male weakness and gender role non-compliance. This is evident in a common feminist “male tears” meme, which originated with the goal of making fun “of men who whine about how oppressed they are, how hard life is for them, while they still are privileged”. It’s been used by feminists Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti (first picture), and Chelsea G. Summers (second picture)MIT professor Scott Aaronson opened up on his blog about the psychological troubles he experienced after internalizing negative attitudes about male sexuality, which partly came from the portrayed connection between men and sexual assault in feminist literature and campaigns. He was clear he was still “97% on board” with feminism. Amanda Marcotte responded with an article called “MIT professor explains: The real oppression is having to learn to talk to women”, which included a “cry-baby” picture at the top. Another “cry-baby” attack comes from an article on the feminist gaming website The Mary Sue.

Another example of this general attitude is the #MasculinitySoFragile Twitter hashtag used to “call out and mock stereotypical male behaviors that align with the feminist concept of ‘toxic masculinity,’ which asserts that certain attributes of the Western machismo archetype can be self-detrimental to those who embrace them”. It’s like challenging beauty standards for women with #FemininitySoUgly; that doesn’t challenge those standards, it reinforces them.

Many feminist approaches to sexual assault and domestic violence reinforce gender traditionalism by downplaying or excluding anything outside of the “male perpetrator, female victim” paradigm. Mary P. Koss, an influential feminist voice on rape (and professor at the University of Arizona), says that it is “inappropriate” to say that men can be raped by women. She instead calls it “engaging in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman” (“The Scope of Rape”, 1993, page 206). For domestic violence, the article “Beyond Duluth” by Johnna Rizza of the University of Montana School of Law describes the Duluth Model, an influential domestic violence prevention program in the United States that takes a “feminist psycho-educational approach” to the problem.

Practitioners using this model inform men that they most likely batter women to sustain a patriarchal society. The program promotes awareness of the vulnerability of women and children politically, economically, and socially.

According to Rizza, the Duluth Model is the most commonly state-mandated model of intervention, and the only statutorily acceptable treatment model in some states.

11.5 How do some feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude towards men?

In recent years, a certain segment of feminists has developed slew of terms aimed at being specifically critical of men’s thoughts/behaviour like “mansplaining”, “manspreading”, “male privilege”, “male entitlement”, “toxic masculinity”, “male narcissism”, “manslamming”, “manterrupting”, “manstanding”,  “bropropriating”, and “check your privilege” (which is used to ask men to reflect on their biases, but not women). Women do not receive this same critical treatment (at least from feminists; there are places on the internet where people take a similar hyper-critical attitude to women with ideas like “female solipsism”, but they’re widely considered misogynists).

One example of the hyper-critical language and attitude is the Jezebel article on “male narcissism”. The response to the 2014 Isla Vista killings by Elliot Rodger provides many other examples, like a Feminist Current article on “male entitlement”, a Salon article on “toxic male entitlement”, and an AlterNet article on “Aggrieved White Male Entitlement Syndrome”. “Manterrupting”, “manstanding”, and “bropropriating” can be seen in the TIME article “How Not to Be ‘Manterrupted’ in Meetings”. Could you imagine any of these outlets writing articles on “female narcissism”, “female entitlement”, “woman-nagging”, or women being “femotional”?

Author Warren Farrell provides interesting insight into this phenomenon from the decade of his life that he spent as a feminist (from his book The Myth of Male Power, introduction).

“[…] I wondered if the reason so many more women than men listened to me was because I had been listening to women but not listening to men. I reviewed some of the tapes from among the hundreds of women’s and men’s groups I had started. I heard myself. When women criticized men, I called it ‘insight,’ ‘assertiveness,’ ‘women’s liberation,’ ‘independence,’ or ‘high self-esteem.’ When men criticized women, I called it ‘sexism,’ ‘male chauvinism,’ ‘defensiveness,’ ‘rationalizing,’ and ‘backlash.’ I did it politely-but the men got the point. Soon the men were no longer expressing their feelings. Then I criticized the men for not expressing their feelings!”

11.2 Is it feminism’s job to address men’s issues? Can’t feminism be about women?

If feminism is a movement for gender equality (especially the movement for gender equality), which it is very often promoted as, then yes, it absolutely is feminism’s job to address men’s issues.

Feminism doesn’t have to be that. It could instead be a movement for women, in which case it wouldn’t have to do anything for men. But feminism could no longer be promoted as “just another word for gender equality”, and there would be a clear need for a men’s movement to exist alongside (but outside of) feminism to help men.

It’s also important that the problem with feminism and men’s issues is deeper than just a lack of action. First, some feminists actively oppose or obstruct attempts to raise attention to (or address) men’s issues from outside of feminism. Second, many aspects of gender traditionalism that help women and harm men are tolerated or even embraced by a certain segment of feminists. And third, many feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude to men that borders on hostility and encourages antagonistic gender relations, making working together to achieve gender equality more difficult.

PART 2: FEMINISM ACTUALLY PROMOTES GENDER NORMS AND TRADITIONALISM

11.4 How do some feminists reinforce aspects of gender traditionalism?

One of the biggest issues in feminism is “violence against women”. There are countless campaigns to end it or saying it’s “too common”, and feminist celebrity Emma Watson says “[i]t’s sad that we live in a society where women don’t feel safe”. But, as explained previously, women aren’t doing any worse in terms of violence victimization. In that context, the implication of this rhetoric is that women’s safety is more important than men’s. This clearly plays to traditionalist notions of chivalry that here help women.

(Women do feel less safe. From a 2011 article, “[w]omen fear crime at much higher levels than men, despite women being less likely to be crime victims”. But actual chance of victimization is more important than fear. Otherwise a middle class white person is worse off than a poor black person who’s probably less sheltered/fearful.)

Also, one frequently touted benefit of feminism for men is that it frees them from their gender roles like the stigma of crying. However, one go-to method for mocking or attacking men is to label them cry-babies, whiners, complainers, or man-children, labels that clearly have roots in shaming of male weakness and gender role non-compliance. This is evident in a common feminist “male tears” meme, which originated with the goal of making fun “of men who whine about how oppressed they are, how hard life is for them, while they still are privileged”. It’s been used by feminists Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti (first picture), and Chelsea G. Summers (second picture)MIT professor Scott Aaronson opened up on his blog about the psychological troubles he experienced after internalizing negative attitudes about male sexuality, which partly came from the portrayed connection between men and sexual assault in feminist literature and campaigns. He was clear he was still “97% on board” with feminism. Amanda Marcotte responded with an article called “MIT professor explains: The real oppression is having to learn to talk to women”, which included a “cry-baby” picture at the top. Another “cry-baby” attack comes from an article on the feminist gaming website The Mary Sue.

Another example of this general attitude is the #MasculinitySoFragile Twitter hashtag used to “call out and mock stereotypical male behaviors that align with the feminist concept of ‘toxic masculinity,’ which asserts that certain attributes of the Western machismo archetype can be self-detrimental to those who embrace them”. It’s like challenging beauty standards for women with #FemininitySoUgly; that doesn’t challenge those standards, it reinforces them.

Many feminist approaches to sexual assault and domestic violence reinforce gender traditionalism by downplaying or excluding anything outside of the “male perpetrator, female victim” paradigm. Mary P. Koss, an influential feminist voice on rape (and professor at the University of Arizona), says that it is “inappropriate” to say that men can be raped by women. She instead calls it “engaging in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman” (“The Scope of Rape”, 1993, page 206). For domestic violence, the article “Beyond Duluth” by Johnna Rizza of the University of Montana School of Law describes the Duluth Model, an influential domestic violence prevention program in the United States that takes a “feminist psycho-educational approach” to the problem.

Practitioners using this model inform men that they most likely batter women to sustain a patriarchal society. The program promotes awareness of the vulnerability of women and children politically, economically, and socially.

According to Rizza, the Duluth Model is the most commonly state-mandated model of intervention, and the only statutorily acceptable treatment model in some states.

Basic point is that we have inherited from gender traditionalism (and perhaps biology) a strong protective attitude towards women, and that is a major reason why we’re conscious of and attentive to women’s issues but not men’s. Feminism is seen as a rejection of gender roles and in many ways it is, but the elevation of women’s safety and well-being to an almost sacred status within feminism (e.g., “we must end violence against women” as if violence matters less when it happens to men) fits in well with traditionalist attitudes of “women are precious and we must protect them”.

11.1 So the problems—both the issues themselves, and the lack of recognition of the issues—come primarily from the traditionalist system of gender. Feminists fight against that, so isn’t feminism the answer?

I’ve seen feminists who’ve challenged traditionalist attitudes for hurting men or who’ve engaged in activism on men’s issues more broadly. But looking at the overall feminist movement’s priorities, it’s very clear that women are first and men are a distant second. That’s completely expected given their belief that women are much worse off, but I disagree with them on that. I can’t accept feminism as “the answer” for men if I don’t think they properly acknowledge the scale and effect of men’s issues.

Consider the statement from feminist Jackie Blue (Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner at the New Zealand Human Rights Commission as of 2016) that “[g]ender equality is about accepting that at birth, half of us are intrinsically discriminated and treated differently based on sex”. Obviously she means women. That approach to gender equality is not one that will fix men’s issues.

The post “What is Feminism?” on EverydayFeminism says that feminism is for men too, but the very first point it makes under that heading is about how men are expected to mistreat women (to “dominate, abuse, exploit, and silence [them] in order to maintain superiority”) and how most of them are troubled by treating women like this. That’s an example of “helping men” with women as the real priority.

Also, the problems for men don’t just come from gender traditionalism. Some aspects of feminism are a problem for men.

The standard view of gender equality is that it’s mostly or entirely about women and their issues. For example, see “An Act to establish Gender Equality Week” (only women’s issues mentioned) or the Globe and Mail article “Have we achieved gender equality? Nine Canadian women respond”. Academic feminism often uses particularly dramatic, one-sided language when talking about gender inequality—domination, oppression, and exploitation (for women) and entitlement, privilege, and power (for men).

11.2 Is it feminism’s job to address men’s issues? Can’t feminism be about women?

If feminism is a movement for gender equality (especially the movement for gender equality), which it is very often promoted as, then yes, it absolutely is feminism’s job to address men’s issues.

Feminism doesn’t have to be that. It could instead be a movement for women, in which case it wouldn’t have to do anything for men. But feminism could no longer be promoted as “just another word for gender equality”, and there would be a clear need for a men’s movement to exist alongside (but outside of) feminism to help men.

It’s also important that the problem with feminism and men’s issues is deeper than just a lack of action. First, some feminists actively oppose or obstruct attempts to raise attention to (or address) men’s issues from outside of feminism. Second, many aspects of gender traditionalism that help women and harm men are tolerated or even embraced by a certain segment of feminists. And third, many feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude to men that borders on hostility and encourages antagonistic gender relations, making working together to achieve gender equality more difficult.

11.5 How do some feminists apply a hyper-critical attitude towards men?

In recent years, a certain segment of feminists has developed slew of terms aimed at being specifically critical of men’s thoughts/behaviour like “mansplaining”, “manspreading”, “male privilege”, “male entitlement”, “toxic masculinity”, “male narcissism”, “manslamming”, “manterrupting”, “manstanding”,  “bropropriating”, and “check your privilege” (which is used to ask men to reflect on their biases, but not women). Women do not receive this same critical treatment (at least from feminists; there are places on the internet where people take a similar hyper-critical attitude to women with ideas like “female solipsism”, but they’re widely considered misogynists).

One example of the hyper-critical language and attitude is the Jezebel article on “male narcissism”. The response to the 2014 Isla Vista killings by Elliot Rodger provides many other examples, like a Feminist Current article on “male entitlement”, a Salon article on “toxic male entitlement”, and an AlterNet article on “Aggrieved White Male Entitlement Syndrome”. “Manterrupting”, “manstanding”, and “bropropriating” can be seen in the TIME article “How Not to Be ‘Manterrupted’ in Meetings”. Could you imagine any of these outlets writing articles on “female narcissism”, “female entitlement”, “woman-nagging”, or women being “femotional”?

Author Warren Farrell provides interesting insight into this phenomenon from the decade of his life that he spent as a feminist (from his book The Myth of Male Power, introduction).

“[…] I wondered if the reason so many more women than men listened to me was because I had been listening to women but not listening to men. I reviewed some of the tapes from among the hundreds of women’s and men’s groups I had started. I heard myself. When women criticized men, I called it ‘insight,’ ‘assertiveness,’ ‘women’s liberation,’ ‘independence,’ or ‘high self-esteem.’ When men criticized women, I called it ‘sexism,’ ‘male chauvinism,’ ‘defensiveness,’ ‘rationalizing,’ and ‘backlash.’ I did it politely-but the men got the point. Soon the men were no longer expressing their feelings. Then I criticized the men for not expressing their feelings!”

11.6 Are there any other things some feminists do that harm men?

The 2007-08 financial crisis was much harder on male-dominated sectors like construction and manufacturing, and 80% of total job losses were men. Economist Mark Perry called the recession a “downturn” for women but a “catastrophe” for men. Obama’s stimulus plan focused on infrastructure to help the hardest hit sectors, but he was opposed by groups of feminist economists and feminist historians, and established women’s groups, for focusing too much on men. He relented and shifted some focus to the female-dominated (but already recession-resistant) fields of health and education in his proposal. (Source: “No Country for Burly Men”, archive)

Some feminists downplay the validity of men’s voices and perspectives compared to women’s. One feminist academic says that “women’s embodiment specifically affords them a different, privileged understanding of patriarchal systems”.

Low standards of evidence for sexual assault hearings (where men are more likely to be accused than women) on campus are widely supported by feminists.

11.7 Does intersectional feminism address your concerns?

Intersectionality (a term introduced by Kimberlé Crenshaw in a 1989 paper) moves feminism in the direction of taking into account not just gender but also race, class, sexual orientation, etc. Primarily this means means building their theory and activism around a broader range of women (than just upper-class white women), especially black women and poor women. According to one article, intersectionality was “meant to help black women understand their experiences in a white supremacist patriarchal culture like the U.S.”. While moving beyond just upper-class white women is probably a good change for feminism, it doesn’t address my concerns about men and men’s issues.

I also see self-described intersectional perspectives talking about issues facing black men, gay men, etc. See this post on Daily Kos by a gay man writing from an intersectional perspective, saying that being gay means he lacks “some standard forms of male privilege”. Another post from the same site makes a similar point about race. Intersectionality in this sense doesn’t address my concerns either. It’s usually about men facing issues and disadvantages for being black or being gay that happen despite their “male privilege”. I’m interested in the issues and disadvantages that happen because of their gender itself, i.e., cases where it’s not “male privilege” but rather “male disadvantage”. The condition of black men in the justice system is a perfect example. They face a sentencing bias on account of their race, but this racial disadvantage doesn’t negate or counteract any sort of gender advantage. In fact, this disadvantage of being black adds onto the disadvantage of being male for sentencing, and they receive harsher sentencing than white men, black women, and especially white women."

Source: https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com