48 Laws of Power? | PurplePillDebate

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProtoPillRed Before Red4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]gyffyn2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProtoPillRed Before Red4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gyffyn0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas811 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bones_and_love0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]ProtoPillRed Before Red3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ProtoPillRed Before Red0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I mean if you look at the rules, then look at any successful person, you can usually match up most of those rules to that person's behaviour, and if you go out into the world and use the rules for yourself you will find it becomes piss easy to manipulate others if you execute it correctly.

The only exception to this is people who are also aware of the manipulation tactics. Those people are very difficult to manipulate. So, if you have an interest in avoiding being a target for manipulation, learning the 48 Laws is good for that too because now you will realise when someone is trying to use them on you.

An exercise for you, look at Steve Jobs and see if you can match up his actions to the 48 Laws. It's pretty easy. He absolutely created a cult following. He learned how to use enemies in regards to Microsoft. He tried to crush his enemy totally in regards to Samsung and HTC (and arguably half succeeded since HTC is basically dead). He said less than necessary, made appearances only rarely, guarded his reputation, courted attention, got others to do the work and took all the credit (the man couldn't code anything nor was he an engineer, but who is credited as the inventor of the iPhone?), he kept others dependent on him while he worked at Apple, etc etc...

As for what the goal is. That's obvious. It's in the name. 48 Laws of Power. They're not meant to make you "healthy" or happy, they're meant to help you attain power. I think they do this successfully. I also think being aware of them also helps you avoid being someone else's pawn.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

I mean if you look at the rules, then look at any successful person, you can usually match up most of those rules to that person's behaviour,

confirmation / selection bias will help you do that. i think you will find only the minority of successful people operate with those rules. in fact, there have been empirical studies on successful business leaders, and i think you will find they are not in line with those rules.

and if you go out into the world and use the rules for yourself you will find it becomes piss easy to manipulate others if you execute it correctly.

maybe if you want to live a short term hustle type existence which most people don't, can't. you wont maintain long term business relationships and friendships if you follow these rules.

An exercise for you, look at Steve Jobs and see if you can match up his actions to the 48 Laws.

you've selected one person who i would say is an exception. if he were not as lucky and intelligent as he was, his poor personality characteristics (which the 48 laws is full of) that you are erroneously thinking benefited him, would have sunk him, or at least hindered him far more. let's not forget he was kicked out of his own company, which speaks to his flaws. and he would never have returned if they hadn't been doing so poorly which speaks to more luck that went his way.

As for what the goal is. That's obvious. It's in the name. 48 Laws of Power. They're not meant to make you "healthy" or happy, they're meant to help you attain power. I think they do this successfully. I also think being aware of them also helps you avoid being someone else's pawn.

i think they are short term power play rules that don't work in the long term. for example, the think however you want, act how others do promotes being a fake person which will almost always come out in the long term and ruin your reputation which the 48 laws says is so important. obsessing over your reputation will also make you unlikeable. the 48 laws only makes sense to people who already have these messed up values to begin with which are a combo of 1. desire to be impressive, seen as highly attractive, important 2. no real consideration for anyone but yourself. think about how the last quality got steve jobs killed as he was incapable of considering the superior knowledge of doctors who could have likely saved his life, because he thought too much of his own knowledge. how much power does a dead person have?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

i think you will find only the minority of successful people operate with those rules.

Examples?

there have been empirical studies on successful business leaders, and i think you will find they are not in line with those rules.

Sauce?

Many CEOs are sociopaths. Exactly the people who already do this kind of shit naturally.

you wont maintain long term business relationships and friendships if you follow these rules.

Why not?

I don't think the laws are helpful for friendships, but they're pretty much the basis of business relationships.

let's not forget he was kicked out of his own company, which speaks to his flaws. and he would never have returned if they hadn't been doing so poorly which speaks to more luck that went his way.

Or perhaps the reason the company failed without him is because they needed someone like him to run the thing properly? The fact they had to come back grovelling speaks volumes about how important he was.

It's arrogant to simply pin that all on "luck." There is no luck, you make your own luck. Only with Jobs at the helm did Apple become the biggest tech company in the world. That's no coincidence.

for example, the think however you want, act how others do promotes being a fake person which will almost always come out in the long term and ruin your reputation

What are you basing this on? Your own just world fallacy?

News flash: everyone acts "fake" and this rarely causes major problems. It is natural to slip in and out of different roles depending on your company. Adopting a particular mindset in an environment where power plays are important is no different.

obsessing over your reputation will also make you unlikeable.

Only if you ignore Law 30.

the 48 laws only makes sense to people who already have these messed up values to begin with

Again this is pure just world fallacy. The fact is these laws when executed correctly work on pretty much everyone except those who already know to look out for the tactics.

desire to be impressive, seen as highly attractive, important 2. no real consideration for anyone but yourself.

In other words the vast majority of the human population lol.

think about how the last quality got steve jobs killed as he was incapable of considering the superior knowledge of doctors who could have likely saved his life, because he thought too much of his own knowledge.

He was an arrogant motherfucker this is true, but without that arrogance it also would never have made Apple into what it is now. Remember when the iPhone first came out, BlackBerry and Microsoft both said it would fail because it didn't have a keyboard. You need to be arrogant to ignore what the rest of the industry is saying and have faith in your own ideas. And, well, compare BlackBerry and Microsoft to Apple now in 2015... need I say more?

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

this researcher has found the best leaders are humble, not arrogant - https://hbr.org/2005/07/level-5-leadership-the-triumph-of-humility-and-fierce-resolve

desire to be impressive, seen as highly attractive, important 2. no real consideration for anyone but yourself. In other words the vast majority of the human population lol.

if you think most people are like that, you should get out more and actually talk to people, ask them about their values. not everyone shares your values. that's mindblindness - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-blindness

He was an arrogant motherfucker this is true, but without that arrogance it also would never have made Apple into what it is now.

there would not have been an apple computers with woz. that's the luck i was talking about. he was born in the right area, near the right people. i've already said he was very bright, but luck had a lot to do with his success.

need I say more?

you are not addressing that steve jobs arrogance cost him his life. that's seems like quite a misstep/flaw.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

this researcher has found the best leaders are humble, not arrogant - https://hbr.org/2005/07/level-5-leadership-the-triumph-of-humility-and-fierce-resolve

Paywall. Got another link?

I would suggest though that it's very easy to appear humble when you actually aren't. Jobs did this to an extent since he was hardly out to deliberately make a celebrity of himself, and he never referred to himself as a genius or anything like that - he let his actions do the talking. All of this is in the 48 Laws as it happens.

if you think most people are like that, you should get out more and actually talk to people, ask them about their values.

Oh yeah sure because I'm certain if you asked some master manipulator what their values are, they'd be completely honest about it right?

Likewise if you asked even an average greedy person if they valued money more than the lives of people they don't know, they'd probably say of course not even though it's most likely true, because everyone knows it'd be social suicide to admit such things and you have to, gee I dunno... guard your reputation maybe?

Like I said your views are just world fallacy all the way down.

there would not have been an apple computers with woz.

And have you read Woz's book, iWoz? In it he speaks of many times where Jobs lied to him and manipulated him. The example that sticks in my head is when they were both hired to make a game for I think it was Atari. The fee they got was something like $2000. But Jobs handled the business, so he told Woz it was only $500 when it came to splitting the money.

And again I remind you, Jobs is the one who stayed at the company and built it up to be what it is now. Woz was very important in the early days but left pretty early on once Apple grew into a big business.

he was born in the right area, near the right people.

If not Woz, he could have found someone else who was a talented engineer. Woz and Jobs both attended the Homebrew Computer Club which was absolutely full of them.

you are not addressing that steve jobs arrogance cost him his life.

Sure I did. Sometimes people's greatest strengths are also their greatest weaknesses. As well as simply being arrogant Jobs was a hippie and while this helped his visionary mindset (he dropped a shitload of acid and literally said it was one of the most important experiences of his life for one thing) it was also why he did not use conventional medicine. You win some, you lose some. But Jobs died successful and rich and left behind a legacy that won't be forgotten soon.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

you can skip that paywall screenwall by clicking the x box in the right corner of the paywal pop up. and here are other articles from the same author on the topic - http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles-leadership.html

if you read up on game theory, tit for tat research, you will see reciprocity is the dominant model people operate under because it's the most evolutionarily sustainable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation this idea that everyone is trying to manipulate each other for their own gain without regard to others is a red pill / narcissistic delusion / nonsense. i'll refer to it as the manipulative world fallacy. tit for tat is not explained by the just world fallacy or the manipulative world fallacy, it's explained by the reciprocal world reality.

I would suggest though that it's very easy to appear humble when you actually aren't

it's cognitively more taxing to lie about who you are constantly. further, people probably respect honest jerks to secret jerks, but obviously prefer non jerks. this is probably another reason why dark triad types tend to be unhappy, having to spend your whole life catering, fronting to the people you don't like, care about, is a lot of work. the irony of narcissists is that they don't care about people but they need other people to like them so they have to forever hide who they are. it's a sad existence.

If not Woz, he could have found someone else who was a talented engineer. Woz and Jobs both attended the Homebrew Computer Club which was absolutely full of them.

people that intimately know the history of apple say without woz there would have been no apple - https://books.google.com/books?id=mXnw5tM8QRwC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=without+woz+there+would+be+no+apple&source=bl&ots=PyHob05p0M&sig=MtM2zlJMxAIOExGSDWtkX4PN3Dk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBmoVChMIgcTr_pqGyAIVxKceCh1CDgQU#v=onepage&q=without%20woz%20there%20would%20be%20no%20apple&f=false

You win some, you lose some.

not all mistakes, personality flaws are the same, especially ones that cause you to lose your life.

But Jobs died successful and rich and left behind a legacy that won't be forgotten soon.

how many years of your life would you give up to have a life like jobs? what is success, wealth, and legacy worth to a dead person?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

you can skip that paywall screenwall by clicking the x box in the right corner of the paywal pop up.

Doesn't work for me, just says "you have read 5/5 free articles for the month" even though I've literally never been on that site before. That's some bad coding.

and here are other articles from the same author on the topic - http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles-leadership.html

Can you link me to a specific article? I'm not gonna read everything the guy wrote just to hunt for the evidence you're meant to be showing me.

You also have not given me any examples of CEOs who do not fit the behaviour of the 48 Laws. Maybe Bill Gates? Except oh wait he was even more ruthless than Jobs... but that's another coincidence right?

this idea that everyone is trying to manipulate each other for their own gain without regard to others is a red pill / narcissistic delusion / nonsense.

And yet there's no real evidence to back up this assertion. You linked me to a Wiki article about a particular philosophy you clearly agree with. Good for you. But that's not some kind of ultimate truth just because you believe it. Again you've still not showed me CEOs who do not use the 48 Laws.

You just like to think this because it makes you feel nice. But that's cool with me. Those who remain ignorant to the manipulation are the easy targets. The ones who accept the way of the world are the most difficult. The more people like you who exist, the better it is for me.

it's cognitively more taxing to lie about who you are constantly.

Says who? Like I already said, we naturally assume different roles depending on who we're with anyway. It's not even something you have to consciously think about.

further, people probably respect honest jerks to secret jerks

"Probably"

Your evidence is astounding.

this is probably another reason why dark triad types tend to be unhappy, having to spend your whole life catering, fronting to the people you don't like, care about, is a lot of work.

Why do you think this is exclusive to "dark triad"? You just described basically any job. And we all have to deal with those for at least some period of our lives, even if we work for ourselves later on.

the irony of narcissists is that they don't care about people but they need other people to like them so they have to forever hide who they are. it's a sad existence.

We are talking about business environments here yes? You do indeed have to make people you don't like or care about like you in order to move up in a corporate environment. Welcome to life.

people that intimately know the history of apple say without woz there would have been no apple

Even in your own link, it says Steve Jobs disagreed with his opinion.

Talented engineers are ten a penny. Honestly at Homebrew Computer Club there were many people selling PCB boards already, and that is what Woz did. The actual physical design of the machines was mostly down to Jobs. Read Woz's own book iWoz and it tells you all of this.

I admire Woz, don't get me wrong, but he would be the first to tell you he is not a businessman, he is an engineer. And there are plenty of good engineers. Apple hires a shitload of them right now.

not all mistakes, personality flaws are the same, especially ones that cause you to lose your life.

Exceptional highs come with exceptional lows. But I would happily choose the option to die young if I could have the level of success and riches Jobs did. A long mediocre life full of failure and poverty would make you want to die anyway.

how many years of your life would you give up to have a life like jobs?

Just answered this above haha.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lonny_zone0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	48 Laws of Power?
Author	taiboworks
Upvotes	3
Comments	43
Date	September 20, 2015 1:26 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3lo97e/48_laws_of_power/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/48-laws-of-power.279499 https://theredarchive.com/post/279499