Are we moving to a situation where many men don't feel as if they have a stake in society anymore?

Frothy-Water · 2020-08-21T18:51:05+00:00

I think people who talk about men in history always forget men were very outnumbered in a lot of places in the world. Men died in wars, the fields, everywhere. Men didn’t really have to compete for wives in the same way as today, where gender ratio is roughly equal. For example, Rome is estimated to have lost like 20% of it’s adult male population in one battle in history. Can you imagine trying to marry as a guy where upwards of 20% of the male population is just gone overnight?

tripleundone · 2020-08-21T18:24:44+00:00

I think men recognize that they have a stake in society, but feel that the minimum basic level of opportunity or support that society gives them is becoming so small as to be nearly meaningless.

I grew up in an emotionally abusive household under the poverty line most of my life. If I want to make my prospects better, I either have to work super hard and fight against the current of economic disadvantage, or find some way to numb myself to the fact that I will never have a better life. For a lot of men the latter is easier. There is nothing I can leverage about my body itself that people will value innately, barring selling organs or blood.

Objectification is a horrible thing and monetary exploitation and coercion is a horrible thing to experience. And I will never know what it’s like to feel like to see people only value me sexually in the way women say they do. But I would contend it is also a qualitatively different experience to feel that you couldn’t even pay someone to use you if you tried. That you have net negative value to each individual person you know as well as to the world.

The-Devilz-Advocate · 2020-08-21T18:26:21+00:00

Men are constantly told that they must work on their hobbies/career/work out "for their own personal satisfaction" or "to do it for themselves" but this post seems to imply that men need more incentive than to just do things for themselves. They want to feel like they will be noticed by women and other men, the work they put in will make them more attractive to women and they are more likely to have kids.

Yet if the data is true, birth rates are dropping all across the West and sexual inequality is vastly increasing. Which implies that more and more men feel like they do not have a stake in society.

Men nowadays are opting for having a nice apartment or a small house, have some good hobbies and a balanced social life.

But this goes against the female and largely capitalistic drive. Which is marriage. If men get married, they have to buy a big enough house for their wives and their kids, his spending goes through the roof compared to when he was single, and he still overall has a slightly higher chance of being happier than a single man while taking on a metric fuck ton of risks to get there.

So do some men feel like society doesn't care about them? Society has never did. But instead of necessarily burning down cities and doing full scale riots, their way of opting out is just living a happy life where they can retire at 40.

Is it good for them? Yeah I do think so. Yet again I'm barely 22 so what do I know what's good.

But I do believe that if it becomes a big trend then it will be a detriment for society.

JohnDoe9564 · 2020-08-21T18:37:32+00:00

We're called the "Lost Boys" generation for a reason.

asdf333aza · 2020-08-21T20:10:54+00:00

Look up the Herbivore men in Japan. These guys are perfectly content playing video games, not making a lot of money and not chasing girls for sex or relationship. They spit in the face of the corporate lifestyle. They just live their lives and do what makes them happy. Yes, it's selfish, but that's how the game is now. They checked out of the dating scene and it became such an issue that the Japanese government realized their economy cant survive and had to take steps to get people to date and have children. Some ppl even believe the mgtow movement has it's origins from the herbivore men.

Are women working more? Not your problem? Are women reporting higher rates of depression than ever before? Not your problem. Are birth rates declining? Not your problem. Are women working so hard that it's stressing them out, while men sit back and take the easy route? Not your problem. Are there chads out there getting laid and pump and dumping girls? Not your problem. The kids of the next generation have to deal with an earth that is running out of resources and was destroyed by us? Not your problem. The kids of the next generation have to deal with a fucked up economy and rising prices and stagnant incomes? Not your problem. Are there bitter old folk telling you your generation is ruining everything? Not your problem. Are there women complaining about not having anyone to date? Are there more single moms than ever before? Are female led house holds worse off than two parent households? Not your problem. Are the children of next generation worse off? Are all those bad-boy Chad babies growing up to be criminals like their daddies? Not your problem. Is marriage dying out? Not your problem. Is the society going to hell? NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Fuck society. Let the people be their own demise, and you just do what you need to do to keep yourself happy.

The root of a lot of male problems comes from dealing with and chasing girls. You let women hold the possibility or happiness over your head, when in reality they can't give it to you. They might even keep you from it. You have to find happiness yourself And once you do that, you realize you don't need them. So long as you need a girl in your life to feel happy, you are on the plantation. You are a slave to them. And if you REALLY need it just find a prostitute. And get your fix like an addict and go on about your day. Stop trying to save women. Stop trying to save society. Stop trying to fix the culture. Stop trying to uphold morals and ethics. Let it all crumble. The point is, do what's best for you and fuck society and everyone else in it.

Majorian420 · 2020-08-21T19:09:59+00:00

As an immigrant in American society, it seems to me society has abandoned its young men and boys in favor of its daughters.

In an attempt to equalize opportunities for females, males have taken a backdrop. Its why we see more women going to college and earning more than men because there are more safety nets for them now.

The result is there is a financial and education imbalance between genders because from what Ive seen is successful college educated women want other men of similar or higher standing but theres not enough of those men to go around.

At my college the ratio is 40/60 male to female, which is good for me and others within this bracket but bad for women because the numbers just aren’t there.

So women will have to either lower their standards to go for men of lower standing and be okay with being the beardwinner, share men from the upperclass or check out of the game.

From my PoV, young American men have this sense of hopelessness because theres not enough opportunities to go around, the American Dream is dead and the Pax Americana is about to draw to a close.

Its why Donald Trump polled so well with white young men because he offered to restore a throwback to a golden age in American history that their grandfathers told them off and what they seen in movies and on tv where they mattered and there was a sense of hope and prosperity.

This is why during the rise of ISIS in the middle east, there were flooded with hundreds of thousands of recruits, who were mostly young Arab men because ISIS offered an alternative to the authoritarian or corrupt regimes of the middle east. What people aren’t aware of is that during the 2010s the middle east was hit with one of the worst droughts in history that hampered agriculture in the region which turn forced hundreds of thousands of people to look for work in urban areas which there wasn’t enough to go around which led to political unrest which coincided with the Arab Spring and the civil wars that came from it and lay the perfect conditions for ISIS to expand rapidly.

Because young men are the most at risk demographic to populist figures, because when hope fades and you have someone offering salvation, you just had to take it, it will galvanize the masses.

Birth rates are dropping yes, thats why the US improves labor from Latin America to cover down as the white and black demographic grows older. Which is why it’s estimated by the end of the century, hispanics will be the majority in the US.

Edit: thank you to the anonymous benefactor who popped my award cherry.

Expensive-Guitar3609 · 2020-08-22T00:09:55+00:00

This is stupidity.

I'll tell you what, I'll give you a short and summarized explanation of what's happening. I'm not a native english speaker though so I would try to make it simple.

Men don't have a place in the world where the only ones with oportunities are men at the top, that's the main issue. I would like to preface by saying I'm not a leftist, quite the contrary in fact, but the world about to come may be a leftist's wetest dream (though the old left is still in the loosers band, they just don't know yet).

Men at the top know damn well what's happening, and women know too, or at least "sense it". The men becouse they are running the show of course, and women becouse they are really sensible to societal changes, their survival depends on it after all.

Thing is, as the real privileged people of this system, they don't want to lose the control. Like it happened across history, in all cultures and civilizations, when a system gets corrupted, flabby and useless and start retaining progress and prosperity and draining resourges to mantain institutions that no longer benefit the masses, men get tired, start a revolt and fuck the shit out of the ruling class.

In the modern world, as always, the ruling class needs to keep masses of men in check and away from revolutionary ideas, so now they come up with this fucked up idea that men "refuse to adapt to the modern world". They want you to believe that the disconfort masses of men are feeling is becouse "male privilege is being challenged". That they have no place in the future, that they won't "fit" in this marvelous prosperous utopia of equality and freedom the ruling class is planning.

"Our privilege". Just pay attention. This is how powerfull classes write the script and shift the reality. It's called "cultural narrative", and powerful men use it all the time to hide the fucking obvious truth in front of your eyes.

Pure old semiothics, the art of changing the perception of reality through lenguage. It is well known in psychology that thoughts are an internalization of lenguage; if you don't have words to describe a thing or a process, you can't thinking it or place it in context, even less rationalize it, so neither you can think about a solution when a problematic scenario arises.

So now it doesn't matter how much men fail as cause of systematic inequalities, becouse if some men at the top (and even women now!) can do it then the only explanable reasson why most men are doing it so poorly is becouse...

Yes, they are jealous of women. Bum. Blame shifting.

Now they have you thinking if you vote for said candidate that defends your intrests instead of a "feminist" (code-word for neoliberal progressive anti-nationalist globalist) agenda, you are a covetted mysoginyst facist pig.

Sounds familiar?

On the other hand you have a women's issue.

You see, modern women's ideological core principles are intrinsically tied to the modern ruling class, becouse powerful men have been using women's movemments and pushing for women's rights as a form of wealth transfering system, from the national productive framework to the burocratic, political, financial global system.

Where does money for health care, social programs, women's state politics and extended safety nets, come from? Of course, from the productive framework.

Well, sometimes from men like Soros, Paul Singer or Rockefeller (btw, can someone explain to me what do men that dedicate their lives to sent poor countries to bankrupt and fuck their economies have to do with women's liberation?) but mostly from the productive framework.

Who compounds the whole framework? Men. Who benefit the most from the State? Women. Who administrate taxes, wages and State founds? The ruling class.

This is why men are not allowed to have "ideologies", men movemments, men ministries or ONG's. Just imagine if someone tomorrow started talking about this shit on TV. Damn.

Don't get me wrong, women are not to blame for this, they are just profiting from a system that uses them as a political and ideological shield. But then, women still suffer from some natural intricasies, for example, her lack of control of what sorrounds them.

Women are in shock becouse the world is collapsing and everything around them is showing the first signs of the (inevitable) entropic forces of a dying system, and men are refusing to partake in the structural recovery of the old social machinery where they are not the primary beneficiaries yet they are expected to do the hard and dirty work and being exploited and, now, mistreated and disrespected.

As a matter of fact, men want this old globalized world-wide system to get fucked, as they have made it by now, pretty much, crystal clear every year with the increasing rise of nationalist-fascist parties across the globe.

Even if men across the western world don't know yet, their driving force will converge in a bigger, wider and more complete view of their combined intrests, this is, national intrest.

What do you think this "Manosphere" is? A "sexual strategy"? Nah. This is only an issolated subset of ideas that belong, at a sociological level, to a metaphysically bigger scheme.

Men are saying "fuck it", and women don't like it, becouse they understand (or sense) their leverage in the modern cultural societies depend on men staying productive and working hard in order to create the resources that will be extracted later by men in power.

That's why wages have stagnated and taxes have skyrocketed while social-democrat political parties have been winning all over the western world and yet wealth keeps concentrating in fewer hands day by day.

The other day I was hearing some radical feministd say that men avoiding taxes are being "mysoginists" becouse they don't contribute to the safety net women benefit from at a national level.

Can you believe it?

Of course, I understand what she's saying. In a pure, materialistic sense, women's rights are only the aviability to attain resources and participate in the social distribution of productive means.

Too complicated? Go to basic mode:

Humans rights say all individuals have rights to a home, for example, but even if a culture allows women to buy houses... How many women do you know that build houses for a living?

So, in short, most women's freedoms and liberties are an inmanation and a byproduct of men's work and sacrifice.

You know, as far as now we have accepted this idea of "human rights" as a default setting of our societal core principles (though abortion rights, in direct contradiction with these same universal rights, may well bring their validity to discussion) but if men start to concive individualistic, materialistic and maniqueist political views along with a nihilist and darwinian aproaches to inter-gender interactions as a result or response to rough socio-cultural conditions, this humanitarian-equalitarian, idealistic and romantic utopia the western world is experiencing now may come to an abrupt end.

This is what women fear. That becouse of being left behind and treated like second class citizens, men will be forced to take more "individualistic" paths.

But this is not men hating women more than men acting on their own selfish intrests.

You see, men are having their own "gender revolution" right now. And they are going to change the system... Not becouse they hate women. But becouse they can.

Read this part from OP's post:

"In the modern era, we'd like to believe that we've risen above our primal instincts. But if the manospehre is to be believed, the extent to which men have actually accepted this paradigm and live their lives accordingly depends on 1) how successful they are in attracting women and 2) how much they are capable of seeing people over biology."

And now read between lines:

"In the modern era, we'd like to believe that we've risen above our primal instincts."

And the intresting part:

"2) how much they are capable of seeing people over biology."

Traduction:

"You don't want to work hard so I can be free to buy what I want and live the way I want, so you are a mysoginist pig. Also, by not voting for Hillary you are forcing me to give you pussy to survive. Hillary told me."

Yeah. They know damn well what's going on.

BudgetSeaworthiness1 · 2020-08-21T18:12:30+00:00

I am personally not affected because I have very strong personal ambitions and drive.

However I can completely see how, no offense, “weaker” men may struggle to see a purpose to anything. Being constantly bombarded with negativity and reward less responsibilities I fully sympathize with those who just say “fuck it”

Sleepyhead_Lain · 2020-08-21T23:09:01+00:00

I think it is very true. Just look at Maslow's pyramid, the recognition you get from society (including women) for who you are and what you do has an important place in it.

At a personnal level, I feel it. When I was with my previous girlfriends I had goals in my life, I was willing to move forward, because I wanted to build up a loving family with them. I had motivation because I was doing it for an hypotetic future family, and not just for me.

When I'm alone, I just go from an existential crisis to another, feeling like everything I do is just pointless. I try to fix some goals, I even reach them sometimes, but I'm just insatisfied with them, I don't feel like it was useful. I don't do things for myself.

I might be some kind of nihilist in Nietzsche's perspective, or some sort of "simp" (I'm not throwing money at girls of course) but this is how I feel. And I do believe that lots of men feel the same way.

Sultmaker_9000 · 2020-08-21T19:16:30+00:00

2 Things to separate:

The male sexlessness issue is the same as Japan, which was the trend setter from the 80's, men essentially giving up having sex, which is an economics issue.

As for women rising further up society, won't bode well, I cant see how most women will accept men of lower status than them, and they aren't.

SaBahRub · 2020-08-21T18:22:39+00:00

I don’t want to have kids; does that make me useless to society? Some would say yes.

Guess what? I don’t care! I’m going to keep living, working, buying, voting, having sexual and non sexual relationships, paying taxes, volunteering, learning stuff, donating to charity, cleaning up beaches, babysitting, caretaking, following my interests, and meeting people.

And I will bet plenty of people like me exist

Suck on that, nihilists!

Joey_Lopez · 2020-08-21T18:34:56+00:00

Yes we are. Which is why the establishment is importing illegal immigrants to replace people not reproducing or have given up because they don't have a stake.

One major thing that TRP needs to get behind is against illegal immigration. When the population (tax base) starts shrinking and they don't have immigrants to patch it, they will have to start addressing the social problems (SMP, feminism, unmarriageable high body count women, etc) we talk about.

HumanSockPuppet · 2020-08-21T20:37:04+00:00

It depends on what you mean by "society".

Society isn't a clearly definable thing. Society is simply the word we use to describe the outcome of millions of human beings interacting with one another with the goal of fulfilling their goals and self-interest.

To have a "stake in something" means to put a personal resource at risk in the hope of getting a better return on your initial investment.

So, to have a "stake in society" means to take a risk in interacting with other people with the hope of securing a better return on your initial investment.

What things do men wager as their stakes? The answer is their labour and ingenuity. What do they hope to receive as a return on their investment? Prestige, money, respect, and pussy.

In that sense, men have been checking out of institutions and arrangements that do not present a clear set of outcome states that are beneficial to them (such as marriage, for example). This is happening in increasing numbers, because there are a decreasing number of institutions which are beneficial to men. Men don't want to play games that are all-risk no-reward.

By contrast, women do not have stakes in society, because they do not take risks. Women are risk averse by nature. In order to get what they want from other people while still avoiding risk, they manipulate men's protective instincts, playing the victim card loudly and repeatedly until some man gives them what they want. They do this over and over again, their cravings and thirsts never sated.

So, men are slowly withdrawing their stakes. But they are also the only ones who have any stakes in the game at all.

LowCreddit · 2020-08-21T23:20:34+00:00

If I was an incel, I would literally move into the woods, work at Walmart, collect welfare, and do whatever I want.

Sigma1979 · 2020-08-21T18:14:36+00:00

Do you think society is now moving towards that situation? Now we have dating apps, social media, women who have more economic freedom than ever before + laws in their favour, 3rd wave feminism, it seems like there are a growing number of men who just feel like they have no purpose.

I would agree. But it just means that women will need to pick up the slack more than they already are as far as society as a whole goes if they want society to progress. This is just one of the consequences that people need to accept.

As long as guys are paying their bills without the need of social support, I really don't see it as a problem. People are going to complain and whine about things they want which they do not have, thats just life.

Men are under no obligation to society. If people want men to contribute more, why should they?

Yet if the data is true, birth rates are dropping all across the West and sexual inequality is vastly increasing. Which implies that more and more men feel like they do not have a stake in society.

Yeah and a new society will takes its place. Thats how evolution works.

AidsVictim · 2020-08-21T19:26:47+00:00

I think both genders feel that way in general as a result of modern cultural and economic paradigms. The gender imbalance is that women can choose to have children or find a partner relatively easily if they choose to regardless of their circumstance, while a growing underclass of men can't. They don't want or need the underclass of men, many don't want children, they have no stake in society beyond being capitalist consumers. And society will suffer for it.

jax006 · 2020-08-21T18:07:39+00:00

I can't relate to the "muh stake in society as a provider" attitude. Im productive because it makes my life better, regardless of what hoes want. I like buying fancy ruffwear shit for my dog and want to buy a Tesla. To do those things, you gotta make money, which you make by being valuable and productive.

VariationBusiness · 2020-08-21T18:17:20+00:00

Apex fallacy for the millionth time. You're assuming the majority of men in the past were wealthy accomplished people with families because those are the only stories you hear about.

You think the laborers building the pyramids felt like they had a "stake" in society?

What's going on is that the more a population grows the more strained resources become for everyone. We are used to having much more frequent wars that cull a good portion of the male population. But now these guys are sticking around for longer. You couple that with automation which is reducing the need for manual labor. All of a sudden where we used to have wars that would wipe out 15% of disposable males, we now have no wars and 30% of males are disposable.

Society just needs less men period.

Wallstreet3 · 2020-08-21T21:28:12+00:00

Men are not allowed to have emotions. Nor principles. Nor any moral sense. Society has deemed us less than human. Man is the new N word.

Faced with such toxicity and disposability, how should a man respond?

Society is disposable.

retal1ator · 2020-08-21T21:46:58+00:00

In essence, yes.

Most men don't have a significant stake in society and the consequences of this are apparent to anyone who isn't completely sold on post modernism. Men today are significantly less involved, driven, and ambitious than in the past decades.

If a man knows he won't get any real benefit or authority along with the enormous responsibilities he is called upon as a citizen, as a husband, and as a good workbee, then he will not take on these responsibilities. He'll just do the bare minimum and only care about himself.

Relationship wise, there's no point in marrying anymore for a man and even long term relationships look like a lost game to those who, like me, had plenty of experience and is ultimately realizing it is better to just do the selfish thing and live your life as a bachelor. Today's women quality is extremely low there's no point in sacrificing your life for someone who will probably cheat on you when you're no longer exciting, divorce rape you, or both. The law will be on her side, no doubt.

Society doesn't hold being a good honest man as something honourable and to be preserved, the consequences of that aren't hard to predict. Being a honest responsible man has become a caricature and a degrading miserable condition. It's much better to pump and dump, or go your own way.

akihonj · 2020-08-21T23:15:46+00:00

Do we need to introduce mgtow, tldr yes I'm mgtow myself.

We have effectively given up on your society, if it fails then it fails, we accept we will die alone, accepting it because we know that most men will die alone anyway, we reject the traditional model placed on us both by your society and in particular by women who are overly cushioned by this society that has on numerous occasions shown us that we are neither needed nor wanted but happily expected to make a sacrifice of our lives to support your society, to do the unthinkable because you cannot nor will not, to do the unspeakable because you are to afraid to do it, to die if needs be because you are to scared of what you will lose, we have said enough, we will be here but will not make ourselves the cannon fodder for your lives.

Now before the lockdown I used to travel into schools to discuss stem subjects with students as part of my companies outreach and community program, at certain points we would break and I'd talk mainly to the boys because it was always them who were interested in stem, in the entire time only 1 girl approached me to talk about the subject.

What I noticed myself was the number of boys asking if they had to go to university as they didn't see any point, the universities are overwhelmingly female focussed, schools are pushing girls to do stem subjects and boys to go into care or child studies, things they had no interest in. Many, I actually lost count after about two months, of the number of young boys who stated that relationships, bearing in mind these were 16-18 year old boys, were just not worth the hassle, they are too dangerous to get involved with, there are too many risks involved.

They often stated to me directly that they have felt for a long time as though being male is somehow wrong, that they don't have a future or they don't have a place in society anymore.

Many asked about university because as far as they saw it they wouldn't get offered a place due to the number of girls going to study arts subjects.

What could I say to them then, that they were wrong, that they should go mgtow, neither, there was nothing I could say other than to try to bring it back on topic.

Now as an aside it must also be noted that numbers for mgtow itself is growing, the numbers of men who are outright rejecting relationships I'd growing, the numbers who are rejecting families, cohabitation and marriage is growing.

Throughout the west, males are moving and leaving home countries faster than they ever have.

If the trend keeps going that way, up, it only needs 10% of the population and then becomes a default behaviour for the whole population.

So I ask you then, what do you think.

AramisNight · 2020-08-21T19:26:08+00:00

Men left in this uninvested position in society will also be quick to burn that society down and actively work towards its destruction as long as the feel the society does not benefit them personally.

LoveScoutCEO · 2020-08-21T22:32:37+00:00

It is hard to be a man today, there is no doubt about it. The traditional male roles have broken down. But the truth is those roles were not as clearly defined or easily obtained as most people like to believe.

For most of American history - particularly after the Crash of 1837 - there has been a large number of rootless men who couldn't afford to get married. In fact, there are tens of thousands of books and movies about these poor, desperate men. We call them Westerns.

Do you really think those cowboys wanted to live like that? No, not after they were about twenty-four anyhow. They wanted to settle down, but they couldn't afford to. So, they went to prostitutes, drank to much, and probably died young from being kicked by a mule, bit by a snake, eaten by a bear, or.... Well, you get the picture.

After the Civil War many of these men, particularly among Union veterans, became hobos. They would often work for a few months laying track for the spider web of tracks across the country and then move on.

Hobos were a regular part of American life everywhere until 1945 when a combination of the GI Bill, large number of high paying unionized blue collar jobs, the booming post-war economy, and a slew of government programs started by the New Deal allowed most of these men to settle down.

But that glorious period only lasted until about 1974 when the Arab Oil Embargo hit. And culturally it had already taken a beating from feminism and the pill. So, it had never been easy to be a man, but it is probably more confusing today were men's roles are just not defined.

There are women fighter pilots today. Other than the highest level of sports and the Catholic priesthood nothing else is still a male zone. Women always have the exclusive zone of motherhood to fall back on and the trump card of generally being able to get male attention anytime they want it. Men don't have those options and they are always at risk of social stigmatization and even legal liability when they are working or socializing with women.

I believe it is nuts that more American men don't leave the country. There are much better options overseas for men and at least right now it is still financially viable for most men. There are much better places to be a man than the United States, Canada, Australia, or Western Europe.

TheBookOfSeil · 2020-08-21T23:52:34+00:00

Yes, it's actually possible that we're moving to that state of affairs. I believe that a lot of stress is being artificially placed on people at various class and social levels, and though my thoughts of this being deliberately done doesn't matter, it matters in the way that people are having to deal with it.

Men feel like they're being closed out of their avenues for success which is being a successful and productive member among our species. It's hard to say whether any single thing is the cause of this, whether it be feminism, overpopulation, immigration, outsourcing of jobs contributing to a strained economy, etc., but I think all of these things do play a factor in the waning success of individual people.

Everyone, not just men, feels like they have to belong in some way. It's an integral part of our existence. The main reason that people commit suicide is that they have no sense of belonging. They feel like they've been ostracized from their peer group in some way, whether it's because they're different and have trouble making friends, or because people just don't accept them and/or bully them.

I think I've heard that men are more likely to commit suicide when pressures are weighing in on them, such as they have a family to provide for and they just lost their jobs, or they were divorced.

A desire to belong is what drives all of us to participate, and if we feel like we have no place, we're less inclined to act and don't want to compete just to be able to live.

ontherailstoday · 2020-08-22T02:34:42+00:00

It is not a woman's purpose in life to be issued to a man by the social system as reward for him going along with the game. Just like for men, her purpose is to become herself... to self actualize.

If a man wishes for company, companionship, support, co-operation of a woman then it is his job to make sure he is such that his presence in the life of the sort of women he is willing to accept offers more than his absence does... and then actively seek out a range of such women to find one with whom it works in such a way that he too is advantaged and and she is willing to form a household with him.

If he's looking for a woman who is of similar quality to him that's not actually a hard ask, even with women having the ability to earn their own income. Two people working together can do significantly better than two people working apart. There are economies of scale that are on the side of couples. A lot of women want children, that generally takes two to do well.

The game is still statistically in favor of men. Women still want kids more and have to make a leap of faith in a man to have them, women still don't have access to certain jobs requiring strength.

If you're a man and failing now, it might be because you're a failure not because the system is not user-friendly enough to men.

There's just four components to this. What you want. What you offer. What you will cost. And how well you search. They are all things you can work on. There are tens of thousands of things you can do to alter all of these components of the dynamic. You could be doing some of those things right now instead of posting here.

I believe that thousands of years of patriarchy has led to certain weaknesses becoming common in lower value men, the most notable of which is a deep reliance upon the forced participation of a woman in providing a vast array of supports to him. That's over now. A lot of dudes are going to have their line die out. But that's just how things are, these prunings of the tree of humanity happen.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2020-08-22T06:00:05+00:00

We have been there for years.

The book "Men on Strike" explains it.

Suck-Less · 2020-08-22T09:50:27+00:00

A vast majority of men simply don’t want to climb the ladder. They are happiest sitting around the camp fire, drinking alcohol, watching venison burn and talking shit about the great hunt. From the great hunt to video games, the mediums may be different but the actions are the same.

Most men don’t strive to be at the top of their hierarchy of dominance (to steal a term from JP). There’s nothing wrong with that at all.

For a vast majority of men, climbing the ladder is something they do so that they can provide for their families. Plain and simple. It’s not an inherent dominance aspect, it’s an inherent protection instinct. Where I personally break from RP is around the notion that men are born to spread their seed; I think most men are born to protect that seed.

When you tell men a massive list of shit they have to do in order to “make her happy” many men will say fuck it. I’m going back to drink beer with the guys. Other men will kill them selves trying to complete that list. It’s only a tiny fraction of men that will strive to be the absolute best at what they do, just because they want to - and they will do it completely outside of the context of women.

Now, tell men they are born broken, shit, the root cause of all the worlds problems, keep changing the goal post or put it outside of their abilities, mock them, tell them they have no value, and what you are going to get is men pressing the “fuck it” button. That switch in the back of every man’s head that says, I’m done, go fuck your self, I’m going back to the camp fire and grab a beer. Dr Hellen Smith wrote a whole book on this called “Men On Strike.”

More and more men are simply refusing to participate in society, from climbing the corporate ladder to being a skilled tradesman. There’s been a constant drop in male attendance in college (in relationship to the number of women) along with a lack of men going into the trades.

The fun part is that men are absolutely critical to society. It’s men that keep the water flowing, electricity on, handle the majority of goods transportation, security, firefighting, septic, etc. If it’s critical for a society to function, men do it and are mostly responsible for it. Men do those hard, dirty jobs to take care of their families. When there is no family, when men start getting the message that they are not wanted or valued or the root cause of all the problems, it’s those men in particular that will say fuck it.

We are already at the situation where many men don’t feel as if they have a voice or a stake in society; it’s mostly affecting bachelors right now. When it starts to really affect those with families (one more generation raised under feminism), that’s when you will have to scheduled your home repairs a year in advance. The sons of that generation will see either a mass campaign to hear men’s grievances and support men, or they will watch men drinking their beer as they watch it all burn.

Grave_Heresy · 2020-08-22T17:45:23+00:00

Im not sure if the issue is that they don't feel as though they have a stake in society so much as not caring about having a stake.

In ancient times, men engaged in many collective actions to increase their individual rank in social dominance hierarchies and to support their lifestyle of subsistence living.

They did this for a number of reasons, the greatest of which was to ensure reproductive success (Mind you this is subconscious).

The mechanism through which this was achieved is victory over male conspecifics in competition (Combat included).

As our society pathologizes male aggression and intrasexual competition, the natural ways in which males can display their reproductive fitness decreases.

Concepts such as "toxic masculinity" communicate that male stereotypic behavioral response to provocation is incongruent with societal expectations of men.

This puts men in a catch-22. On the one hand, they have natural inclinations to exhibit displays of reproductive fitness via aggressive competition with other males. On the other hand, they have a natural inclination to avoid social condemnation.

As a result, males chose socially acceptable avenues to engage in intrasexual competition. These include sports (For those physically inclined) or non-physical activities such as gaming.

Since the majority of males are not genetic elites, they often focus on interactive media (Games).

Young men are able to exercise violent intersexual competition and move up digital social dominance hierarchies via online gaming where they can collaborate with other men and have their success affirmed by peers.

They are also able to have sexual gratification through things such as porn. So they don't really need to engage in society to have any of their animal needs met.

This means that society isn't offering anything that would entice males to engage with it any more. Granted the digital world is an extension of society.

But I think that more and more males are going to disengage. Not because they don't see themselves as having a stake in society but because they don't give a damn about it lol

taapy234 · 2020-08-21T20:26:57+00:00

[deleted]

Anthony-waltzs · 2020-08-21T18:42:15+00:00

That’s not the case at all it’s actually the opposite. Men aren’t one dimensional to where they lose all sense of purpose if they can’t be a father or a provider for a family idk why women think that? Men do not need to be with a woman to be happy, you can only make yourself happy. And women were not handicapped in history? There were female leaders and female queens throughout history, if she is implying recently like the feminists movements if you actually do your research a lot women did NOT even want those rights like to vote and etc. It was the feminists that wanted them, men never handicapped women.

legospartan · 2020-08-22T01:00:18+00:00

Legalize prostitution in the United States and watch the western dating/married culture drastically change

wtknight · 2020-08-21T18:19:18+00:00

We're moving to a society where attracting a woman will be like getting an education, except even more difficult because there aren't things like scholarships and student loan programs. Some people have an advantage in genetics, economics, or upbringing when it comes to getting that education, just as some people have a prior advantage when it comes to attracting women. However, with work a man can attract a woman just like a person can attain an education. Those who don't put in that work are not going to see a reward, just as it is with an education. It's up to the individual man whether he decides to live a life of "uselessness" or whether he makes the choice to attempt to improve himself.

2020-08-21T23:24:56+00:00

I think the manoshere makes men think the situation is worse than it is.

As ozy on here said 'the outside is the best medicine to counteract the black pill'.

learn2earn89 · 2020-08-22T17:44:40+00:00

In the past, many men and women had no stake in society. I think because we are in a time where more men and women are educated and have wealth relative to our ancestors, we are falling into the just-World fallacy. A lot of men (especially here on PPD) don’t understand that the world isn’t fair and you don’t get what you want just because you think you should.

MwahMwahKitteh · 2020-08-21T20:01:02+00:00

No. I think the whole thing is bull shit and as long as you keep subscribing to these idiotic chauvinism ideals, you’re going to feel that way.

cunningcaring · 2020-08-21T20:18:59+00:00

No, we have a huge stake in society at every level. Not sure where you are coming from.

Asbelowsoaboveme · 2020-08-21T18:22:51+00:00

I’m personally glad women aren’t handed out like fleshy participation trophies to the undeserving male masses anymore. Human beings should not be used as resources or negotiation pieces.

Mimoxs · 2020-08-21T19:36:45+00:00

men aren't misogynists they're just bad negotiators

You can't say a group of people actively hating in violent and resentful ways and mistreating people bc those people don't give them what they want isn't hatred against that group

"Yeah they're not racist they're just bad negotiators. Slave owners are dropping out of society bc no one cares about them and gives them labor anymore. Labor is a NEED for slave owners smh it's in the Maslow hierarchy"

The sad thing is that yes this is literally the mentality. Like "me no get what I want so I'm not gonna perform basic human contributions to keep society functioning like everyone else does even though they don't get what they want either >:("

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CMOAN_MAYNE · 2020-08-21T18:31:57+00:00

cast-away-ramadi06 · 2020-08-21T19:15:43+00:00

To a large degree, I think it's correct that the male position in society is changing. I don't think that's a bad thing, but there is some uncertainty in it.

As with many other things, there were pros and cons to how things were done in the past. I think what your seeing is that, during this transition to whatever is next, the pros and cons of the social contract are out of balance, which should be expected during a period of substantial change. Thankfully, most of the imbalances are being dealt with naturally in due course - e.g., women are starting to realize they may have to marry/have kids with men who are less economically successful that they are; divorce proceedings are slowly becoming more equitable (although I suspect laws around communal property and equitable distribution will change as more women find themselves on the short end of these concepts). Unfortinately, not all are and these become more acute during this transition period - frankly, I am surprised that more young men haven't started checking out because of this inbalance.

We need to rebalance education so it suits the innate characteristics of boys as well as girls, we need to rebalance job quotas so they effect undesirable jobs and not limit them to only the most desirable jobs, we need to expand selective service so it includes women because they should have an equal responsibility in defending the country, and we need to rebalance social spending so that it's more equal as well. In general, there are still many areas in which we hold men to stricter standards (e.g. domestic assault, criminal sentencing, etc.) or provided materially less support (e.g., shelter, safety, food, etc.). I don't beleive standards should be based on gender and I don't think most people do either. We have made strides to address areas where standards or laws are unfair to women, and there's still more work to be done. But I don't think we've made anywhere near the same progress in addressing the situations where standards or laws are disadvantageous to men. Until those things come into a better balance, I'm not surprised when/if young or unsuccessful men check out.

jakethegreatwhite · 2020-08-21T20:08:48+00:00

I don't feel like i have any real power in society other then my own life and who i surround my self with. So i just "go my own way" and simply do what makes me happy. I pay taxes and my bills so after that i do whatever I want. I don't know how this makes me a misogynist but they throw that word around so much that its meaningless

joesmithasdf · 2020-08-21T23:17:04+00:00

Both this and the mentioned thread have a point but imo it’s still two movements which “don’t get it”.

Social media and the internet in general as they’re in 2020 can generate such echo chambers. One is a bunch of women and allies who blame men, as if there’s something inherently wrong down to the genetic level. The other is mostly men who blame women, and dream of a past when males ruled and were all heads of households (Spoiler: there has never been such past).

nkw1004 · 2020-08-22T03:31:07+00:00

I think that everyone needs to feel like they have a purpose in society. I would say it’s similar to when women wanted to be able to do more than just stay at home and watch the kids. Yes men still have the ability to do just as much but it’s in our human nature and instinct to look for someone to help populate the earth with and thousands of years ago the biggest manly man got the girl. It’s still wired in our brains even today

Woodan11 · 2020-08-22T16:22:45+00:00

SUCH A GOOD POST! Yes!

MGTOWManofMystery · 2020-08-22T00:57:42+00:00

OP wrote: Men are constantly told that they must work on their hobbies/career/work out "for their own personal satisfaction" or "to do it for themselves"

I disagree. I feel men are never told to do things for their own satisfaction or self-actualization. Rather, men are always lectured to do things for others. Which, nowadays, means extensive responsibility with no authority. Why bother? just focus on oneself.

theweirdreplyguy · 2020-08-21T19:25:48+00:00

Simple, gynocentrism

daniellederek · 2020-08-22T05:25:40+00:00

The tipping point will be when enough men become fed up and opt out. When men decide being a net taxpayer to fund the welfare state and single moms is a fools errand. Evert month I meet a half dozen guys why fully realize making payments on a 85k truck 450k house for 30 years is a bad plan.

Van life, setting up a barrack in an industrial workshop space, working just enough for expenses and lifestyle, escaping suburbia, fuck the HOA. all those are chipping away at the foundation of western society while 3rd wave feminism topples the altar of woman they once worshiped at.

Maximedius · 2020-08-22T07:17:00+00:00

Are we moving to a situation where many men don't feel as if they have a stake in society anymore?

Yes. Yes we are, and it's fucking fantastic.

2020-08-21T18:45:29+00:00

I have somewhere in my post history that whenever a tragedy occurs I always break out smiling. No I don't identify as a part of a society that clearly doesn't want me.

Aeolus___ · 2020-08-21T18:13:18+00:00

Well, frankly the whole premise of that post is idiotic (I think this whole subject goes into idiotic directions in general).

Our society leads men to believe that their stake in society is based on that recognition from other men and women alike, but it doesn’t have to be like that at all.

This sentiment among men is growing, but for the most part things are fine. The growing status of women in our society has nothing to do with the purpose that men serve. Any man who feels they have no purpose due to our current conditions is being lied to.

The internet has become a place in which people make mountains out of molehills.

sparklingscott · 2020-08-21T19:39:43+00:00

No. Beta simps are a legion of men. They will never die off. Their very purpose ensures that they will always exist. Fighting and dying for pussy crumbs is how they have evolved to survive. These men will always have the value of being used by women, so they will never disappear, because women will always select for them in the end, in order to make life more convenient for themselves.

The only thing that is going to change in modern society is that high value women will find themselves more alone than ever. These people will never settle for a pathetic simp, and high value men are rapidly declining. These women are still a minority, so what happens to them is largely irrelevant to society. Garbage tier women will always exist, and they will always select for simps in the end.

The benefit to women at large is that they will have an even greater selection of simps to choose from! Which means there's even less of a reason to not be garbage women! How amazing! And that's exactly what you see today.

It's actually pretty amusing. High value feminists destroyed their dating market with gender quotas and made it easier for trash can Tammy to secure a decent human male. Tammy just has to fake being a Christian and hide her former meth addiction.

LotBuilder · 2020-08-22T06:14:46+00:00

No, men may give up on marriage but that’s not the only thing we have to live for.

superlurkage · 2020-08-24T16:47:39+00:00

yeah, "go your own way', already

go!

plenty of people are just fine

rubbooyuri · 2020-08-21T21:21:57+00:00

Oh, look, a tantrum! Take your ball and go home then, ok?

You guys have so much — prosperity, religious and political freedom, socioeconomic mobility, technology, endless entertainment, modern medicine, leisure time, freedom of movement around the world, readily available sex workers/porn —- but you can’t make women do what you want, so waaaaaaah, burn it all down!

Sounds pretty spoiled to me

Logn3r · 2020-08-21T19:44:55+00:00

bonobo-no · 2020-08-21T19:53:42+00:00

tommydagun · 2020-08-21T20:49:41+00:00

Men are constantly told that they must work on their hobbies/career/work out "for their own personal satisfaction" or "to do it for themselves" but this post seems to imply that men need more incentive than to just do things for themselves.

When men work for themselves and their own personal satisfaction, most will be happy working just enough to live in a crappy apartment and fund their hobbies and leisure pursuits. Which is fine as far as it goes. But you can't run a modern economy on that level of productivity. The now-moribund blog Dalrock used to call the extra production men engaged in to provide for their families the "patriarchal dividend."

Title	Are we moving to a situation where many men don't feel as if they have a stake in society anymore?
Author	BumblingBeta
Upvotes	293
Comments	484
Date	August 21, 2020 6:01 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	/r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/are-we-moving-to-a-situation-where-many-men-dont.168146 https://theredarchive.com/post/168146
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ie1ss6/are_we_moving_to_a_situation_where_many_men_dont/

Are we moving to a situation where many men don't feel as if they have a stake in society anymore?

Ludwig, V., & Brüderl, J. (2018). Is there a male marital wage premium? New evidence from the United States. American Sociological Review, 83(4), 744-770. Abstract: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122418784909?journalCode=asra&