CMV: Men here ought to focus on not being in the bottom 20% before they focus on being in the top 20%

reluctantly_red · 2020-10-27T19:59:18+00:00

I like wearing cargo shorts, hate most social situations, and suck at small talk. Luckily, as long as I stay relatively thin, I'm tall enough and good looking enough that it doesn't matter.

majani · 2020-10-27T19:00:51+00:00

In a sense you're right that it's good to break down the problem into smaller steps.

On the other hand, there's a threshold problem: someone might do a lot of work, think they've done enough, but still not be above the "datability" or "fuckability" threshold. Keeping an eye on the bigger picture is helpful to avoid regression and accomplish the underlying goal of clearing the relevant threshold:

just becsuse you put in a shit ton of work, it won't necessarily be enough at that point. You're either clear of the bar or you aren't, and it might take further improvement.

SeemedGood · 2020-10-27T20:17:27+00:00

The thing is that women don’t really judge on a continuous scale.

Women’s scale translated into a 10 point scale looks like this:

10 - 9: I’ll go out of my way to make myself available, might even pursue

7 - 8: I’ll be open to being approached by him, if he’s making 6 figures

6: I’ll consider using him for utility when I’m 35 and desperate; if he hits on me before then it’s sexual harassment

5 - 1: Asexual worker drones that don’t even count as human beings

I once suggested to my sister that women only find an incredibly small portion of men at all attractive. She vehemently denied that. I then asked her what percentage of men she found attractive. She claimed 30%. Stunned, I asked her:

You mean to tell me that from the time you get out of your car in the parking lot at a store to the time you get back in it you find 3 out of every 10 men you see aged 20 to 45 to be attractive?

Noting that she was 45 years old at the time.

Her response:

Oh God no (laughing). I meant the men in our set. Those other men don’t count.

She owns a business that caters to the Hollywood elite. The men that she refers to as being in “our set” are mostly in the top 1% of income earners in the US, all within the top 5% of income earners in the US, many come from extraordinarily wealthy families, are generally among the most well educated people in the US, all have high social status, and tend to be on the fitter and better looking end of the spectrum as well.

So in reality she was saying that she finds 30% of the most attractive 5% of men attractive, and the vast majority of men literally “don’t count.”

That is how women see the pool of men.

Equalattractions · 2020-10-27T18:57:21+00:00

Women think 80% of men are 'below average'.

If you are not in the top 20%, in the eyes of women you are very close to being bottom 20% already.

baby-yoyoda · 2020-10-27T20:53:05+00:00

Good point. But I think 7/10 are still having a hard time.

Braindead_Nihilist · 2020-10-28T01:13:21+00:00

You shouldn't worry about having an impeccable, trendsetting sense of style and fashion; but you should worry about wearing tennis shoes and cargo shorts, gym shorts, or dad jeans every time you go outside.

Most of the clothes I own are jeans for work and solid colored shirts. Getting a new wardrobe costs more money than I have access to, especially if you want it to fit well. What do you propose I do?

You shouldn't worry about becoming a social butterfly that can talk to anyone at anytime about anything; but you should worry about not knowing how to make small talk or hold a conversation with people you bump into.

How does one become better at holding a conversation? I'd like to avoid just doing it over and over and making a complete ass of myself. I feel this is a natural inclination and not a skill one can hone.

You shouldn't worry about being the most popular guy in school or in the workplace; but you should worry about not having any close friendships.

All of my friends abandoned me based on a lie. There aren't any areas where people who share my hobbies and interests can meet that isn't 2 hours away. What do you propose I do?

You shouldn't worry about having the charisma of Russell Brand; but you should worry about not having basic flirting skills.

I operate on the assumption that women aren't flirting with me because that's what I was told they wanted. I am also incredibly oblivious. How do you propose I fix this? Just hyper focus on every interaction and read into something that may or may not exist?

You shouldn't worry about making a 6-figure income; but you should worry about living with your parents because you can't afford to live on your own.

Just make more money bro. I work 10 hours a day 6 days a week and I'm barely squeaking by. I can't quit my job because I'll be homeless. This is the best paying job in my area that doesn't require a degree. I also lack the funds to relocate. What do you propose I do?

Honestly this whole thing is a complete load. Just be better man that's all it takes. Wasn't there a survey that showed you're basically invisible to women unless you're in the top 20? Even if I disregarded all that and took your advice, it wouldn't matter because the women I persue are pining after guys they perceive as being more valuable than me.

WilliamWyattD · 2020-10-28T04:02:30+00:00

I would say that your advice is good for any given individual, but typically we are discussing dynamics at the society level.

At that level, it often seems unrealistic that men are going to make an across the board improvement as a whole. Or unfair that they would have to and not women. Or many argue that female attraction is primarily based on comparing men to other men, so if you boost all men, it won't change the dynamics that many men are saying are unfair to men.

So on a large scale, adopting your advice would really only be worthwhile or effective if (a) there is a large 'absolute' value factor to female attraction as opposed to it mostly being 'relative', i.e. comparing men to other men; and (b) if somehow men have fallen in absolute attractiveness recently compared to the past.

stats135 · 2020-10-27T21:21:35+00:00

Instead of being jack of all trades, its better to be master of one.

If you are Chad you can be homeless and not have to worry about it with half of tinder wanting you in their beds. If you are a high earner you can have the a dorm room full of sugar babies even if you don't know the first thing about flirting. If you are exceptionally charming and charismatic you can be straight up deformed and you'll still be smashing pussy. But if you are just not bottom 20% or even just average in everything, then sure women aren't repulsed, but you also got nothing they are attracted to.

Workaholiconew · 2020-10-27T23:11:35+00:00

It is good to take your time and improve slowly,

Also, I agree that many men indeed do not have the basics right and need to back to the fundamentals.

But to say it is exponentially easier to be a 7/10 is just ludicrous. if a 2/10 has a success rate of 0.000001% by hitting on the average women their value. A 7/10 would have a 1-5% success rate. It certainly improved a lot, but truth be told, it is still difficult.

men are usually rejected for massively dropping the ball in one or more key areas, as opposed to failing to live up to unrealistically high expectations.

More like the fact women have literal hundreds of 'key areas' which ARE one of the many unrealistic expectations. The chances are cumulative you know? If you multiply percentages enough, you tend to end up with a infinitesimal result. I.e. Unrealistic expectations.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-27T19:50:58+00:00

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NigroqueSimillima · 2020-10-28T17:08:13+00:00

but you should worry about having an unhealthy bodyweight and not being able to jog for a mile or do a pushup without going into cardiac arrest

but you should worry about wearing tennis shoes and cargo shorts, gym shorts, or dad jeans every time you go outside

but you should worry about not knowing how to make small talk or hold a conversation with people you bump into.

but you should worry about not having any close friendships

but you should worry about living with your parents because you can't afford to live on your own

I worked for almost a decade in tech in the DC suburbs, mostly alongside DevOps guys (yeah, exclusively guys). This "just take a bath" shit is outdated. There are lots of quality men out there who simply aren't hawt enough to get a first date (let alone fuck) a woman who is equally unfat, unchildrearing, and/or unbankrupt. They are well-adjusted enough to stay away from PPD, but I am happy to speak for them.

The US birthrate will continue to plummet as long as women avoid stable dad-types until after they have their first kid and/or their eggs lose viability.

LeJacquelope · 2020-10-27T19:22:08+00:00

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humiddre7 · 2020-10-27T19:20:30+00:00

Top 20% in SMV puts men in a range for possibly achieving sex strictly based on their SMV. Most of the bottom 80% of men in SMV can achieve sex, but they are almost inherently dependent on their RMV (being a beta provider, in other words), which comes with many unfavorable caveats.

That being said, even top 20% SMV is not necessarily going to give men a highly favorable sex life. I think that some bottom 80% men lose hope altogether, with no incentive to improve to the top 20% (if even possible). But yes, it's stupid for a man in the bottom 80%, who could fairly easily get into the top 20%, to be complaining about his lack of success.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-27T19:08:03+00:00

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YveisGrey · 2020-10-28T04:27:54+00:00

TRP taught me full stop that men are not the rational sex at all. Not to say women are much better but humans are emotional creatures and men are no exception.

JameisBong · 2020-10-28T04:29:23+00:00

It's bottom 80%. I know plenty of obese 200 pound women who will not date a guy who isn't 6 ft, makes 6 figures and is in shape. The women in question usually have shitty $60k a year jobs working as school teachers or some job that has a diversity quota.

Physiologist21 · 2020-10-28T03:41:51+00:00

Well yes you can't run before you learn to walk but the end goal is still to run.

trail22 · 2020-10-29T02:12:48+00:00

Yeahh... As someone who worked out 6 days a week, had a good career, large social circle and ran marathons. That stuff doesnt matter as much as you think for some of us when it comes to dating.

But it was something to do I guess.

sigma1932 · 2020-10-29T07:59:59+00:00

The problem isn't men not being able to reach "average-plus" level existence... they do that just fine.

The problem is average females breaking commitments to the similarly average guys they agree to get into what are understood to be committed relationships with if a guy 5% better starts sniffing around... and that's a matter of there being at best no consequence to her breaking said commitment and at worst outright incentive for her to do so.

People forget that hypergamy is relative to what a woman's current option is... it's not based on a hard-set "requirement to remain committed"... the latter requires social pressure that keeps hypergamy in check that is no longer there.

Doesn't pay for the 2/10 guy to try to become a 7/10 guy if the 5/10 woman will step out on the 7/10 guy because an 8/10 guy started showing interest in her... even if he's only showing interest because it's Tuesday and his dick is still dry.

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-28T04:27:12+00:00

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MongrelLife · 2020-10-27T21:47:22+00:00

In other words: men are usually rejected for massively dropping the ball in one or more key areas, as opposed to failing to live up to unrealistically high expectations.

100%, this. This is why Game can effectively be bifurcated into Positive Game, and Negative Game - the latter meaning, develop better self-discipline and stop doing things that make you fail the third part of Be Handsome, Be Attractive, Don't Be Unattractive.

Importantly, learn to keep your mouth shut!

I am naturally a strong introvert, saying little during social gatherings, and I honestly cannot tell you whether this ever earned me any interest of the "Ooh, he's so mysterious" kind. Possibly. What I do know for sure though, is that I have avoided many an unattractive faux pas by keeping my mouth shut.

I had this discussion some time ago, as it relates to alcohol, but I feel strongly about it, so will say it again, which is that all of this is why I eschew alcohol - because all alcohol does is loosen my tongue and make me say stoopid, unattractive things.

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SonicBackScratcher · 2020-10-27T19:18:48+00:00

Lots of guys here are not crying about not getting laid and chad. PPD takes the spectrum (see what I did there).

Mrs_Drgree · 2020-10-27T23:25:55+00:00

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LeJacquelope · 2020-10-28T04:02:58+00:00

This thread fails basic statistics.

TheBookOfSeil · 2020-10-28T04:25:29+00:00

“The bottom 20% is quite nebulous and not objective at all. It’s more like the bottom 30% - 45%. Also, the guys that are still getting dates aren’t having a good time either. The guys who do get dates either use those women for sex or end up getting used for free dinner, or both. Most people that are dating are just looking for the quickest route to getting what they want with the least amount of effort. Those who are actually getting into relationships with high quality, top 20% are having the dates that everyone wants, so why bother trying to focus on not being trash when it takes more effort to actually get what you want?

washington_breadstix · 2020-10-28T04:27:08+00:00

I mean, improvement is improvement is improvement, right? Why does it matter what the exact goal is?

Plus, I think the point here is that aiming for average won't do a below-average guy much good in the long run because average guys don't fare that all that much better with women than below-average guys. If a guy has to put in a bunch of effort just to be average, then it's essentially not worth it.

Moreover, since the amount of effort put in by most guys these days is miserably low, it doesn't take much to rise above average. If a guy decides to start putting effort into his own improvement, he'll probably find himself rising above average much more quickly than he thought he would, just because it takes so little to surpass average these days.

2020-10-28T07:38:28+00:00

What are dad jeans? What are tennis shoes?

2020-10-28T08:44:53+00:00

Nice post. Well said. I’m glad I passed this ‘test’ haha. All but the living with parents one. From the EU but lived in asia too long to care about the living with parents thing now. I rent both my houses out instead 😂 and have a nice income while i start studying again

GrandmaManson · 2020-10-28T08:52:00+00:00

Why strive for mid when you can strive for top? No one wants to settle. Im improving yourself drastically you’ll get the mid first anyways so its the same difference. And i think the same works for us ladies as well. Don’t be fat and gross and unclean. Its not all on the men. Everyone should take care of themselves and try not to look like you’ve just crawled out of a dirty shower drain.

bowserfire73 · 2020-10-28T11:17:35+00:00

I mean small steps is great and all but the improvements you listed aren't enough to be successful with women.

2020-10-28T11:43:33+00:00

able to jog for a mile or do a pushup without going into cardiac arrest.

cargo shorts, gym shorts, or dad jeans every time you go outside.

make small talk or hold a conversation with people you bump into.

worry about not having any close friendships.

not having basic flirting skills.

Okay so I am going to need you to stop personally attacking me.

Fichek · 2020-10-28T12:23:02+00:00

How do you know?

2020-10-28T12:26:57+00:00

Hey I like my cargo shorts!

Ercole_ · 2020-10-28T12:40:40+00:00

Worrying about being the best makes not being the worst an absolute joke of a problem. If your problem is benching 315 then not looking like a bitch will always be a non issue. If you only want to not look like a bitch then it's gonna be your lifelong struggle.

WarpedHeadspace · 2020-10-28T13:53:35+00:00

I was with you until you mentioned living on your own. It's 2020, most millenials/gen z couldn't afford housing on a single income before covid recession, now it's an even bigger struggle to find new non-gig jobs.

I don't live in the US and don't live the situation there, but it doesn't sound immensely better. When I was doing my master's, I had to share a house. I knew post-doc students who shared housing. Fuck, my boss works two jobs making 5 figure total and just recently moved out of his parent's house for work reasons.

For people who have to move out for work or education, it makes sense to have a flatmate. For people living in the same city or town as their parents, it makes sense to live with their parents.

NeutrinoParticle · 2020-10-28T15:47:56+00:00

You shouldn't worry about making a 6-figure income; but you should worry about living with your parents because you can't afford to live on your own.

Even if you have a 6-figure income it's still difficult to buy your own place to live in unless you get a huge mortgage (at least here in Toronto).

Source: I earn almost 6 figures (pre-tax) and choose to live with my parents since the 'cheapest' condos in my area start at like 800k, and homes are like 1.5mill.

I hope the lockdown continues for as long as possible so that the housing market crashes a little for me to put a down payment on a tiny condo.

NotGoingoutofMW · 2020-10-28T16:47:02+00:00

Using an analogy. With being attractive and success in dating life scaling on a 10 scale with both times 0 is bad and 10 is good. When a man is 0-2 his dating life is 0. After that every point makes his dating life better by 0.5. At 7 on the attractiveness scale his dating life is at 2.5 which isn't good. Only after the magic 7 his dating life gets easier and easier faster than he gets attractive. It's only a example. What can be almost "game winning" for a woman is for a man only the removal of his invisible cloak. But many women have some sort of niche taste for different types of men. For this and for ones own sake i would still recommend of a certain standard anyway.

2020-10-28T19:35:05+00:00

The problem is all of that would simply make them "not unattractive" rather than actually attractive. I for one completely understand why a man wouldn't want a relationship with someone who only views them as the former.

rubbooyuri · 2020-10-29T19:33:41+00:00

These men want guarantees or they ain’t gonna do it. Serious entitlement.

You don’t see hot women walking around saying “I look awesome and work hard at it; I want a guarantee that I’m not going to get used or cheated on or I’m just going to gain a stone and go back to wearing sweatpants all day!”

_HEDONISM_BOT · 2020-10-31T23:43:56+00:00

Oh boy. Straight into the hellfire I go...

If you look at anthropology, you'll notice that an estimated 10% - 40% (it varies between different populations) of men never pass on their genes to the next generation whereas women are 110%-140% more likely to pass on their genes to the next generation by having multiple children during their fertile periods. Most of humanity descended from between 60% - 90% of men who have ever lived, so ....

going to leave this nugget of info here and run like the wind.

domperina · 2020-10-27T22:40:04+00:00

I agree with your practical points but I think the real issue is that men here should get rid of their loser mindset and quit making excuses. They all know this rationally, but it’s easier to do nothing but complain and blame the world for their failures rather than taking responsibility and putting in effort to get better results.

throw-away-1709 · 2020-10-27T18:59:08+00:00

You can see it that way but actually the body is the thing which counts most.

Game is next important.

So you should bench 220x12 and deadlift a lot.

2020-10-27T23:42:04+00:00

Everyone should aim to be the top 20%.

Heck I'm aiming to be the top 1% in all aspects of my life (income, wealth, lifestyle, education, looks) - some of it is probably not attainable, like looks I'll likely never be top 1%, but I'll get as close as physically possible.

What kind of goal is "Just don't be bottom 20%"? That's pathetic...

Aim for the stars

quesoburgesa · 2020-10-28T03:48:59+00:00

Be nice if women quit covering their bodies w tattoos and having 4 kids by 21 as well

801735 · 2020-10-27T20:23:40+00:00

I think men tend to overlook the fact that women are much more easily turned off and disgusted/repulsed than men are.

LOL. Sure, why not.

This means you shouldn't worry about getting 6 pack abs and benching 315 lbs; but you should worry about having an unhealthy bodyweight and not being able to jog for a mile or do a pushup without going into cardiac arrest.

And get a set of standards and practice telling her about you having standards, then using them with what you observe in her behavior and activities to cut her out of your life on her first fail to meet your standards, yes.

You shouldn't worry about... instead bark at her whim.

You shouldn't worry about... instead bark at her whim.

You shouldn't worry about... instead bark at her whim.

You shouldn't worry about... instead bark at her whim.

How about this:

And, remember, gents, should she expect you to bark, well, she just failed one of your standards, despite you having vaguely mentioned to her you have standards you expect her to meet. Cut her out of your life for failing.

Yup.

Title	CMV: Men here ought to focus on not being in the bottom 20% before they focus on being in the top 20%
Author	tnais
Upvotes	275
Comments	479
Date	October 27, 2020 6:51 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/jj78m2/cmv_men_here_ought_to_focus_on_not_being_in_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-men-here-ought-to-focus-on-not-being-in-the.325650 https://theredarchive.com/post/325650