Describe where you think the line is in terms of what makes something manipulative and give examples if you have any.

alreadyredschool · 2016-05-10T09:14:07+00:00

Everything is manipulation.

You manipulate someone into doing something he doesn't want to do and you have 100% advantages, he 0 - manipulation

50 / 50? - Manipulation!
80 / 80? - Manipulation!
50 / 80? - Manipulation ! 80 / 50? - Manipulation!
0 / 100? - Manipulation!

You both get some advantages, you both get huge advantages, he gets more than you but you still get some advantages... even if you sacrificed your happiness/bonus/advantage for someone else it is manipulation. Since we learn that manipulation is bad it always has a bitter taste to it, even if you would get disadvantages, most people wouldn't feel a bitter taste here but some do. For some people the line is 0/50 (it's still manipulation but they don't see/call it as that), for others the line is manipulation.

Humans are a species which consists out of lies and deception. Some people have more self awareness about it than others. But in the end we all do it.

People grow up hearing "don't lie" "don't manipulate" "always be yourself" but the very same people who give this "advice" DO IT themselves without even realizing that they do it. "That doesn't count" "This one was justified" aka the hamster (hint you can find it in this thread here too). For them giving a certain spin, everyday deception, lies by omission, concealing/clouding of the truth, trickle truth, everyday manipulation, pretended respect/politeness... is not lying/manipulation, they lack the self awareness to see it or their ego starts self preservation and they justify it. Anyways the only difference between all these little lies and real fucking manipulation is that it's socially accepted, parents forget to teach their kids this when they say "don't lie", they should say "You shouldn't lie, but sometimes it's A-Okay, I do it all the time, remember when I said "I love you"?, jokes aside, let me tell you about lies by omission..." . A socially conscious kid could get that without the full advice, and start the same shit.

There are wide variations in human psychology and genetics - there are plenty of people whose reactions are dictated by their upbringing/nurture/parents/teachings. These override, kill and finally bury our ancient tribal political instincts (lie to save your skin) in the backyard. These are the guys that get screwed by this advice. Funnily this is also the folk that would never hurt a woman. Other guys do that, which is why you hear stuff like "men are pigs"... all that bullshit, masculinity shaming, player shaming and even swole shaming. No player stops picking up girls/stats committing because of player shaming, gym rats don't leave the gym after getting hit by swole shaming, no, it's these guys. The ones who try to make everything correct, the ones who get fucked up by this shit advice and shaming. They are socially inept for abiding all social contracts. They need a good load of rational egoism. Then BP comes along and shows their emphatic skills by failing to realise why people did not believe their parents when they said "don't lie" "always be yourself" or when girls told them "Nah I don't like hot guys, some girls do but they are so superficial and swallow you don't want to date them"... I think the only reason not following your guidance is socially inept is because everyone does it.

Funnily enough this is also the reason why these guys have low self esteem (given if they start low). Our personality is a mask/story we tell other people, people who lie will do so without feeling bad, the rest will feel uncomfortable and thus not genuine. So even if the liars are not confident they will seem confident, which can lead to real confidence... while the others will stay insecure until they stop giving a fuck and holding up social contracts nobody abides.

If you are a sociopathic asshole which doesn't care about lying, if you are an idiot who lacks the self awareness to realise that he is lying/manipulating you will navigate social settings easily, if you actually have some morals and are smart enough to know when you are lying you are doomed to fail.

On a sidenote: This is also why conventional advice fails these guys. 1) It doesn't exist in a vacuum. You don't just hear "muscles are attractive" you hear swole shaming, you hear about swallow girls, you hear that character trumps everything... 2) The advice is either too short, not true and just about making you feel good (I need advice not sympathy), ineffective, not suited for such people.

sublimemongrel · 2016-05-10T01:32:03+00:00

Manipulation to me means deceitful, underhanded and/or specifically targeting another's emotions, usually at the expense of another, to get want you want. And I'm talking in terms of person to person interactions here, not something benign like advertising. In relationships I think this often boils down to trying to control someone else, usually against their wishes.

Some examples:

Your partner giving you the silent treatment for days because you did something slight that hurt their feelings.

Pretending you don't care about your partner in order for them to feel the relationship is threatened or at risk if they don't constantly meet your expectations.

Threatening to withhold sex to control the relationship (not because you're legitimately pissed).

Threatening to divorce/leave in order to control the relationship (again, if it's not legitimate).

Making implicit/explicit promises you don't intend to keep in order to have sex with someone.

Purposefully attempting to diminish someone's self esteem or self worth so you can control them or get them to do some thing you want (a good specific example of this would be my best friends ex - he used to tell her how much he hated her and how worthless she was if she ever even wanted to leave the house).

Purposely frightening your partner in order to control them (using my best friends ex again - when she actually did leave the house he used to threaten to kill himself).

Purposefully trying to make your partner jealous (a more specific example of my second example).

Now are all these abusive? No. But manipulative? Yes.

Now how could you change these things to make them non manipulative? I don't really know. If you're upfront about what you want/don't want, instead of hiding your true emotions, that's always a good start.

Entropy-7 · 2016-05-10T02:34:40+00:00

Saying or implying "I will love you forever" when clearly that is not the case. Men will say that to women to get sex (especially gullible, young, (relatively) virginal ones), while women say that to men to get resources.

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2016-05-10T16:14:03+00:00

Manipulation is a tool, and it is not inherently good or bad. It can be used to get what you want, to give someone else what they want, or to create a mutually beneficial arrangement. Arguing over the semantics of what is and is not manipulation is ridiculous when there's a dictionary at your fingertips to clear that up.

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Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-05-10T04:31:55+00:00

negatively impacts women

alreadyredschool · 2016-05-10T05:17:27+00:00

I distinguish Terper manipulation from the manipulation that may happen in common interaction in two main ways:

a) The manipulation is a conscious act, not a subconscious act. Terpers read on manipulation tactics, decide they want to use them on their partners, and then execute it (presumably.) Normal people sometimes manipulate, but it's usually subconsciously.

b) Terper manipulation is deceitful, and selfish. "Amoral." Flirting with other women in front of the girl, playing games with her, using her insecurities against her etc. This is different than, for example (completely hypothetical), if I was to 'manipulate' my bf by suggesting if he took me out to a nice restaurant that I might return the favor somehow. In that case, both of us are gaining something and I am not being deceitful.

wombatinaburrow · 2016-05-10T10:03:30+00:00

It's manipulative when it hurts the other person

betterdeadthanbeta · 2016-05-10T07:31:11+00:00

Any time a female does something you can pretty much assume it's some form of deception or manipulation. Even when no one else is around, there's always self-deception.

Men do. We build. We fight. We carve out empires, employ our minds and strength of arms to maintain and uplift them, explore the universe, split the atom, put food on the table, extract ore from the mines, and so on.

Women don't do any of that shit. Their version of doing things is to get men to do things for them. Hence why no women ever died in the fight for women's rights, like every group of men had to do in order to secure ours. Women just pull the right set of strings, appeal to man's white knight side, and get what they want.

Women are manipulative by nature.

Title	Describe where you think the line is in terms of what makes something manipulative and give examples if you have any.
Author	YouDislikeMyOpinion
Upvotes	3
Comments	79
Date	May 10, 2016 12:51 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4imqh7/describe_where_you_think_the_line_is_in_terms_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/describe-where-you-think-the-line-is-in-terms-of.274740 https://theredarchive.com/post/274740