~ archived since 2018 ~

Her education and income matter, and will matter even more in the future.

November 4, 2022
47 upvotes

For young people sure, it's mostly about the looks because hormones, and for previous generations it was mostly about the looks but...

But we are living in harsh times. People keep talking about 6 figure wages, but median brutto earnings in the US are $50K for 25-34 age group. 20% households earn below $25K 😬 Don't even look at the housing prices / wage relations in Europe. And... inflation.

As an example, in old, ooold times in my region women weren't just "goods" as in many other cultures. Because life was very harsh. Men spent entire days on the sea fishing, women worked the lands so this was a partnership in which, one partner not pulling weight meant starvation. The "beauty" ideal was a big strong woman which could work.

Which is probably why "These results show that young men from Dalmatia are currently the tallest in the world in the age category of 18 years" also the difference in height between men and women is lower.

If current trends do continue, and there is no reason to believe they won't, life is only going to become harsher with time. Except for top earners, having a wife with low income will mean having to find another job.

So... there gender equality.

Brought by almost everyone becoming piss poor.

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Post Information
Title Her education and income matter, and will matter even more in the future.
Author smallstarseeker
Upvotes 47
Comments 152
Date November 4, 2022 1:05 PM UTC (3 months ago)
Subreddit /r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/her-education-and-income-matter-and-will-matter.1138150
https://theredarchive.com/post/1138150
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ylyj6y/her_education_and_income_matter_and_will_matter/
Comments

[–]Gilmoregirlin 26 points27 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

I agree you want a teammate. I am in the workers' comp industry and I cannot tell you how many men I have seen with catastrophic injuries that could either never go back to work again or only at a substantial wage loss. If wife is working earning an equal or more income then they are in a much better situation, not to mention loss of job, being laid off etc. I don't know why anyone would want to be the sole breadwinner that's stressful as heck for the poor person. I almost always outearn the men I am in relationships with, but in my last relationship we lived below our means and had our finances set up so we could survive on either of our salaries alone, specifically one person could make the house payment alone too. They say women are being hypergamous like it's a big thing but we are really just being realistic.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 6 points7 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

It's a big thing for guys which sucked on the Disney story that everything is romantic and beautiful. Women being hypergamous is not a bad thing... just being realistic. I bet your career choice was also being realistic?

I wanted to go to the arts school, but I was realistic.

My buddy wanted to be a big soccer star. He wasn't being realistic 😕

[–]Gilmoregirlin 18 points19 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Yes I am a lawyer, partner at a firm. I was raised that you should not need a man you need to be able to support yourself first. I came from a poor family and all I knew was that I was going to make my way out of that and make a way for myself and my family. My Mom always said a man should be a luxury not a necessity and my Dad echoed it. My Mom was the primary breadwinner after Dad got laid off from the steel mills. Education was That my way out and up. I think often kids, particularly in poor families have no direction as far as education and other times kids are just forced into college when they don't want to go there and could do better in a trade but their parents just don't know and you are so young so they end up with crappy majors! Maybe you can do arts on the side someday.

[–]litgas -1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

My Mom always said a man should be a luxury not a necessity and my Dad echoed it.

Just waiting for the day men are reduce to accessories.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You know that there are accessories that are not luxuries right. Maybe put it like this, women want men they don't need them.

[–]Ppdebatesomental 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Women have been called arm candy for years. Don’t get your panties in a bunch. There is nothing wrong with either gender being adult enough to provide for themselves on their own

[–]mcove97Purple Pill Woman 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I went to art school. Am now a florist and make over 40k a year, which is entirely sustainable as a single person who never wants kids and have a rather low consumption. If I had been realistic I would be working a boring office job sitting on my ass all day in front of a computer screen like everyone else to afraid to pursue their interests.

[–]litgas 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

If women were being realistic they stop the whole men having to be providers, but they aren't.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

But you are wrong about that, many women don't care. We just want a man to have a job where he can support himself, where he can be our teammate. He does not have to be the main breadwinner and more and more women are these days. Men put this on themselves. Another factor is a man's failure to step up and be equal as a parent even when the woman earns more. So if woman wants to have a baby and a man steps up she can work and be the main provider, but sadly most will not. I guarantee you you can find a woman who wants you as her equal.

[–]litgas -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nothing I said was wrong. You say you want a man who can support himself, yet remind me who pays for the date? You claim women want equality, but remind me again who's the one who has to approach and do the asking out again? Women want equality when it suits them not when it doesn't suit them. And women don't want to be the breadwinners they want men to be the breadwinners and do at least 50% if not more of the housework to boot.

You can say I am wrong as much as you want, but you aren't going to listen.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In my case? We go Dutch.

[–]JoeRMD77 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have to remember that most of the women on here are unattractive women who are settling for physical attractiveness because they know they're not going to get a provider guy anyways. The provider guy is just going after someone hotter.

I had a weird online relationship with a girl I met from an online video game who was shacked up with some tall guy in a sexless relationship. She was the breadwinner and always complained about the dude. She also eventually started posting on Reddit along with the other women who don't seem to be that attractive.

It all just makes me realize that hot women are not on here and if they are, they're probably mental in some way. So just remember 90% of these women are unattractive and they're trying to tell you things that attractive women don't agree with at all.

[–]NockerJoePervert Palpatine 12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Theres a weird gap where people who are facing the brunt of economic downturn are doing seriously bad. Like, its become common in my city got people to eithet live with parents well into their 30's or for multiple couples to share a bedroom. But on the other end of the spectrum theres a class of people who still make decent money but aren't really forming relationships.

I think theres a big gap where some people are looking for a generic vaguely educsted self sufficient middle class petson without realizing how rare that has become. Once you narrow it down to the age range of most people here thats genuinley probably a low single digit percent of the overall population.

[–]mcove97Purple Pill Woman 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Living alone as a single person isn't cheap. I'm currently co living in a house with 4 others to save on living costs. Yes, I could live alone, but now I pay 517$ for housing included electricity, water and all. If I were to live alone that would be 800$ at minimum for a tiny loft, electricity not included, likely running me 1000$ a month for the other amenities included. Especially now that electricity prices have been messed up in Europe and people are paying as much if not more in electric bills than rent. I just do not want to pay half my monthly pay in rent, because then there's nothing much left for saving. Nevermind inflation and food costs. I've spent as much on food as I have on rent the past month. That's insane.

Living togheter and sharing costs absolutely makes life more manageable, and having a partner to live with who has an income definitely helps a lot. It's what I ultimately would like to have. I don't see why your average guy wouldn't want that.

[–]JoeRMD77 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If women just got assigned to all us men who moved out on our own, I bet they wouldn't be that unhappy. We wouldn't have to hear them complain that we haven't moved out of mommy's yet, we would just have to hear about how we're not as tall as their last boyfriend.

I know some guys who are dating women and they're having to move back into the woman's parents place. It just goes to show you that women really are settling for physical attractiveness when they are with men that don't have as much going on as others.

I doubt there's very few men who are living at home with Mommy and Daddy who are lonely...

[–]anon018274031 35 points36 points  (100 children) | Copy Link

Wait do people not realise this?

Of course two good incomes makes life better

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 38 points39 points  (78 children) | Copy Link

I heard a lot of guys saying that her degree, job and earning do not matter, all that matters is her looks. So post wall women are supposed to be trash.

To top it off it's usually the low income men saying that.

So... yup some people do not realize this.

[–]badgersonice 15 points16 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I suspect part of this is that they’re dreaming of having a woman to support as a status symbol— being able to support an idle wife used to be seen in the US 1950s as a sign you’d “made it” and you were a “successful man”.

If your wife helped support the family financially, it was considered emasculating or something along those lines.

[–]bluestjuicePeople are wrong on the internet! 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are a lot of people (not just men really) who were raised with American middle class values and expectations that don’t really understand that their income does not actually afford them a middle class life.

[–]badgersonice 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This, I agree with.

I think it’s in large part because those expectations used to be reasonable in the 50s and 60s, but no longer are. The post-war period was a real anomaly for the US— the rest of the global competition had been bombed to smithereens, while the US economy was booming.

Following that, for working class and middle class Americans, the declining economy, tighter household budgets, and the need for both partners to work hard outside the home, have almost just been a return to historical norms: the rich own everything, the peasants scrape by however they can, and there’s only a much smaller intermediate class doing fairly well.

[–]Smitten_Squire 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nows its gonna be who can get the highest earning wife, while you stay home and play COD in her house that she bought.

"Bro my wife makes 110k while i just sleep in everyday, this is the dream! #ImadeIt #stayathomehusbad #imherboss #retiredat30"

High earner wife is the new status symbol

[–]badgersonice 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol, could be. Not too different from the past where a woman marrying a doctor was bragging rights for her… or for her mom.

“Oh, well, my daughter married a DOCtor *smug smug*”

[–]mcove97Purple Pill Woman 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

People really need to get over these traditional ideas, and their pride. This is 2022. Having a partner who makes money if you live together helps a lot financially whetter you're a man or woman and make a below to average income.

[–]litgas 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Guess what most people are okay with their partner working. That said women aren't ever going to get over how they think men should provide.

[–]KirthWGersen 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Her degree, job and earnings do not matter in terms of her sexual market value.

They do matter in terms of her relationship market value.

[–]meteorness123 13 points14 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

"relationship market value."

Which is the the only thing that really matters as all well adjusted people want and get into a relationship at some point.

[–]RocinanteCoffee 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not all well adjusted people want a relationship. But almost everyone does get into multiple ones in their lifetimes.

[–]tonyghow -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

"relationship market value." Which is the only thing that really matters

Tell that to women so that they go for uglier shorter guys that actually want to build a good family.

[–]KirthWGersen -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

At some point. But it is not what we want with most people, most of the time.

[–]OrdinaryFarmerBurgundy Pill Man 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Those things don't matter to me much, what matters is her work ethic. I would want a stay at home mom as a wife anyways. The low income guys saying that are just being delusional and thinking they themselves will make lots of money so they won't care.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Happy cake day 😁

[–]at--at-- -3 points-2 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

Hi. Not a low income man here.

Post wall women are going to have a hard time.

IDGAF if she is a cashier at the grocery store. I don’t need her income. I do care that she is smart because I will be spending a lot of time with her, but her job is inconsequential at best.

[–]Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 0 points1 point  (32 children) | Copy Link

You think a cashier is a good income ? 🤔 lol

[–]litgas 1 point2 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

Where did they say that?

[–]warren_edmonds -2 points-1 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I heard a lot of guys saying that her degree, job and earning do not matter, all that matters is her looks. So post wall women are supposed to be trash.

What guys say is that they don't care what a woman does or how much money she makes which is true. It has no bearing on our attraction to a woman.

[–]anonymous-platypus1 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Unless she makes more.

[–]litgas -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because it likely be used against him.

[–]warren_edmonds -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Only because they know it will matter to the woman even if it's subconsciously.

[–]social_muleall the pills are dumb and the sky is gray (and the sky is gray) -2 points-1 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

To top it off it's usually the low income men saying that.

How in the blue hell do you know the annual salaries of random internet strangers? Are they divulging their income when making these complaints or did you just slip in a lie in the hope that nobody would notice?

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I also know people in real life you know 😁

[–]social_muleall the pills are dumb and the sky is gray (and the sky is gray) -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

But we both know you weren't referring to those people, don't we?

Your real life friends aren't talking to you about post wall women being being trash. That's some bullshit straight from the pages of reddit.

[–]litgas 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which clearly means all right?

[–]litgas -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are of course missing the point. Men often say a woman's job and education doesn't matter because he is the one that's suppose to provide not her. All a man requires is for her to have a job. Women are the ones who very much care what a man does for work.

[–]Sofia_sticated91 -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Its not that they do not matter, it's that they matter far far less than looks.

[–]feanoric -5 points-4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Of course two good incomes makes life better

It feels like one income, though, because inflation and the fact women working just duplicated labor supply, so salaries stagnated.

Women also support open borders and migration, which means even worse wages because you are competing with asian slaves.

[–]warren_edmonds 11 points12 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

It feels like one income, though, because inflation

So 8% inflation is costing you half your income?

LOL.

What nonsense.

[–]RocinanteCoffee -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Rent and mortgage take up most of most people's incomes, at least in the US. Rents have doubled in four years in a bunch of parts of the country with the highest populations, including my city's.

I've had multiple promotions and seven raises in the last half decade but it cannot keep up with my rent being 200% of what it was in 2018.

[–]Early-Christmas-4742 -2 points-1 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

8% every year pretty soon leady to half.

[–]warren_edmonds 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

But it hasn't been 8% every year, think tank.

[–]feanoric -3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So 8% inflation is costing you half your income?

Do you think I'm talking about inflation of the last few years or that that grew for literally half a century?

[–]warren_edmonds 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you think I'm talking about inflation of the last few years or that that grew for literally half a century?

Yes, because otherwise would be weird and irrelevant.

[–]anon018274031 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

‘It feels like one income’, nope sir, doubling the household income overnight certainly feels like two incomes

[–]MrPottems -3 points-2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Too much of a risk when sharing a home. Women leave 80% and 90% if college educated.

[–]Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit.

[–]MrPottems 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Look up the statistics.

[–]Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nahh , I know plenty of married people . Educated married people. It's the uneducated and poor who divorce the most. Doubt they own much property.

[–]Katatonicsnake 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, they don’t realize it. I made the same point about a month ago in daily thread, the replies are interesting.

[–]DontFeedMeAmTroll 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Truth.

I’m a man who makes decent money in tech.

My wife is more educated than me and also does well. This was important to me.

[–]Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are a smart wise man .

[–]SuperCrazy07 16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think this is more important when you’re younger rather than older.

But, the big thing for me would be that she’s financially responsible.

I’d rather be with a college educated woman who makes $50K/yr and lives within her means and saves a little every month than a lawyer who makes $200K and shits it away on absolutely frivolous stuff while making minimum payments on her debt and no savings outside of some 401K (and I know a lot of people like this, men and women).

[–]bluestjuicePeople are wrong on the internet! 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Facts.

TBH I also really appreciate a partner who has struggled to make ends meet because they appreciate the more comfortable lifestyle we can afford now and aren’t afraid of setbacks.

[–]briiiana1122No Pill 15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you don’t care about income or education then I hope you aren’t also whining about alimony. It literally exists so the baby trapped no income potential partners of those who have income and earning potential don’t stay trapped.

[–]Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe money or education doesn't matter in the lusty stage of the relationship for some men. However once the reality of the economy, and the costs of living hits them in the face , Bills due , dreams of owning land or a home . Having childern . The mounting debit will have you appreciative your spouse is educated working a decent job instead of at the Winn Dixie being a cashier.

[–]bsanchey 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ain’t that the truth. We are all poor. Accept it or die alone.

[–]DerpDeHerpDerp 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

(stares)

Wait, it's all been about money?

[–]feanoric 6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm more concerned by how many women have huge debt and cannot get a job in the art and social studies they picked.

You are basically marrying her as a financial liability.

[–]MicrospathodonChrys 8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I mean…that’s why education is only part of the equation. Of course women exist who choose unmarketable majors, but over 1/3 of US medical doctors are women and about 40% of lawyers. Biology tends to be a female-dominated major and can result in a high-paying career as well. Many many women study subjects besides the humanities.

[–]Gilmoregirlin 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lawyer here and we do have loans but overall high earning potential. If the person you are marrying has a lot of loans sign a prenup on that. I always offered that. I never wanted anyone responsible for my loans.

[–]MicrospathodonChrys 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh for sure, that’s why i used lawyers as an example!

[–]feanoric 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Agreed, just pointing out they are more likely to change their field and choose fields that do not pay back what you invested the most for, but I do agree women (specially as nurses and other health workers) are essential workers and shall be appreciated.

I do observe men, however, have more options to pick a job that is average pay but almost no study investment... blue collar jobs, for example, are pretty profitable and often require just a few months of training, and they are not being automatized (except in factories). Which means, overall, men have less debt or have more options to pay them, but only because women despise those jobs.

[–]MicrospathodonChrys 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think your second paragraph raises a good point. However, I’d argue that it’s not necessarily that women despise trade jobs (although some surely do), but that those types of jobs are rarely presented to girls as options for them to consider. Further, working in a male-dominated blue collar profession can be intimidating for women because of the way (some of) those men (might) treat them. As an example, i am a marine biologist and briefly considered looking for work as a fisheries observer after undergrad. Because that would have involved being the lone woman at sea for multi-day trips with fishermen I’d just met, my family members discouraged that as an option because they were concerned about safety (from the fishermen, not from the elements, which i can handle), and i ended up going to grad school instead.

Sometimes there are cultures surrounding blue collar trade jobs that can be quite hostile to women.

[–]feanoric 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes there are cultures surrounding blue collar trade jobs that can be quite hostile to women.

Yeah, it is a fair assessment. Ironically that is what may keep those jobs in relatively high payment and demand.

[–]EmeraldsFaure 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I used to work with a NP whose first BS degree was in biology. Depends on what one does with biology degree, if they go on to attain master’s and postgraduate degrees. I have a BS in biochemistry with intentions of medical school but decided against it. Didn’t want to be saddled with huge debt and spend my 20s and 30s in fellowships, personally I valued time to travel. Got fast tracked BS-master’s program in nursing after I traveled abroad for a year, then doctorate in psych/ mental health nursing. I make well over 200k a year as a DNP, could make more if I supplement with per diem hours elsewhere.

Anyway, I was also able to travel between semesters during my graduate/ postgraduate studies, as of now I’ve paused on a second doctorate in public health.

A lot of paths and opportunities in biological sciences and healthcare field, however most would still require graduate degrees if we’re talking about higher salaries. I also know people who work in biotech with biology and business degrees (my ex-fiancé was one).

[–]labormarket 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are 40% of big law atty’s women? Or does that include shitlaw?

[–]DaddysCavern 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Life has been harsh for years.

[–]oldfashion_millenial 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is kind of a "no shit" theory that applies to 90% of Americans. 90% of American women want to work and do work. Most of what I've seen on purple pill and red pill forums is directed at the top 10% of the population who have the privilege to still live like the 50s ideal, which is totally ok. But why get up in arms about it? Upper middle class and rich women who grew up that way will mostly marry the same level income men who will be fine with a SAHW/SAHM. These people go to school together, socialize together, hold similar traditional beliefs regardless of their politics and ethnicity, and have the option to do as they please. It seems silly to constantly theorize and project onto one group. I'm new in these forums and shocked at how many men want women they don't have access to in the first place to lower their standards. While also calling the upper class men who support these women's ideals all sorts of names. It's like complaining about the price of LV when you actually shop at Macys.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm on the same boat with you on this one. There should be more talk about the 90% of us and less holy crusades about the top 10%, 1% and superstar problems.

I find it so cringe when PPD members use superstars and bilionares as examples.

[–]OhDestinyAltMine 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

What matters is her net lifestyle expectations vs abilities, and education / class is not a direct benefit just increased solely even from your pov.

Like take Some girl whose “degree” and social success come from an entire upbringing being forcibly dragged across the line of the upper middle class and who works some vague middle managerial position she resents and that makes her stressed and cranky (and thus deeply wanting you to make an income jump and earn for both so she can go run a failing interior design shop or be a realtor). I have seen that pattern play out MANY times, and personally I prefer street smart / realistic lower middle class girls who come with a smaller laundry list of what “normal life” means to them, and i say this as as a double ivy ponce who has made social capital accumulation very important in my life. Point is, if i am exchanging on that at ALL, i prefer someone who values it rather than someone who sees it as a basic minimum.

Basically, any woman walking around like her socioeconomic status MEANS something is not ONLY as repulsive as a smug lawyer bro in a 3 series, but she ALSO often comes along with lifestyle expectations that just increase the nominal value of all your transactions but don’t make you any richer.

[–]badgersonice 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Um… a whole lot of working class/lower middle class women look down on snobbish “double ivy ponces” as eggheads or self-important smug weirdos or misguided silly douchbros who think book learning matters more than real life.

The lower class women who highly value dating a lawyer are most likely to trying to class-hop, so they’re likely the kind going doctor/lawyer hunting. That might be exactly the kind of woman you want, but they’re pretty different from the down-to-earth lower-class girls with lower expectations you’re describing.

Yes, some lower class women will overlook then negative qualities of an upper class guy who thinks his education makes him better than other people, but you’re making the mistake of assuming that social status means the same thing in different circles. If you’re not competent at code switching, a lot of “street-smart” girls will not find you appealing.

The street-smart/ realistic lower middle class girls who come with a smaller laundry list of what “normal life” means to them woman you describe… most likely wants a normal life. Its not “settling”, it’s her real life actual preference.

[–]OhDestinyAltMine -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

My entire (post college) dating history has gone exactly as i have described so idk why you’re being an egghead to me about it. Yes some element of “class hopping” or whatever is what i am talking about. When i say lower expectations i mean “a cool house” not “a cool house in x boring neighborhood so my kids can go to the same school as x.” And why such a binary, clearly the girls who are trying to hop STILL find aspects of UMC finance bros annoying, so my value is in being someone who benefits from that world without seeming of it. Besides, poor gold diggers are much easier to spot than rich ones.

And obviously if i think my class peers are brittle snobs who are snobby about lame shit, it means i am at least open to getting along with said girls. My entire strategy works bc the internet flattens this stuff a lot more than anyone thinks about in the ways conducive to finding common ground.

[–]badgersonice 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

And why such a binary,

Funny, I didn’t say anything about “all” or “lower class girls all think this way” or anything like that. I was actually quite careful to use qualifying language like “some” and “likely” to imply this isn’t a binary… rather unlike the binary picture you painted of women who went to college all being miserable bitter cunts working in middle management, while claiming lower class girls have more reasonable expectations.

There is a lot of nuance there, and you missed it deliberately.

And obviously if i think my class peers are brittle snobs who are snobby about lame shit, it means i am at least open to getting along with said girls.

I don’t know why you think that’s obvious at all. Plenty of people hate everyone they work with or go to class with. And plenty of people don’t get along with their peers. The people who describe all their peers as brittle lame snob, and say they prefer to avoid them… seems like they actually aren’t open to getting along with them at all. After I realized out for sure they were being pointedly mean to me, I certainly didn’t go out of my way to get along with the guys who were bitter and openly hateful to me in grad school.

[–]OhDestinyAltMine -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No you suggested the ones that DID want to date different class men would be a certain way. That was where you didn’t have enough nuance in your actual points, however hedged they were verbally. And that’s fair enough on social stuff, i DO think i am better than most ppl so that’s a burden, but basically there is so much of this idea that bougie breeders in nice neighborhoods are like BETTER more fundamentally attractive human beings, and my experience is they really aren’t. So ppl selling that aspect of themselves are selling something worthless to me. But i am actually very sweet to everyone IRL socially and have always been well liked, i just only draw in people who benefit my life in some way. Even brittle middle management cunts!

[–]Gari_305 -1 points0 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

The "beauty" ideal was a big strong woman which could work.

There's no point in marriage u/smallstarseeker and with women being the main breadwinners by 2030 , women at that point will only be used as sex objects, since the prospect of longterm relationships i.e. marriage is dead.

This will inevitably lead to a rise in loneliness and accelerated aging in both men and especially women.

Thus the "beauty ideal" won't be there for accelerated aged women thus why should a man be with her other than recreational sex, if that at all?

As an example, in old, ooold times in my region women weren't just "goods" as in many other cultures.

You mention them as goods, however with this long recession we're about to enter even they are seen as hard workers, they're still won't be seen as a good for their beauty will fade away.

Looks like us men will become MGTOW by default or will have to venture overseas to find the "beauty" you mention u/smallstarseeker

[–]SeveralSadEveningsWhite Light from the Mouth of Infinity 8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Looks like us men will become MGTOW by default or will have to venture overseas to find the "beauty"

"....and nothing of value was lost."

[–]Gari_305 -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"....and nothing of value was lost."

Depends on how one judges what that said value is u/SeveralSadEvenings

When the men of value aka monetary wealth, connections and take care of themselves start leaving to find women in other parts of the world. Then that said value is lost.

For this has happened before...

[–]meteorness123 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Tales. Just like we were supposed to have flying cars by now.

nothing fundamentally will change regarding relationships

[–]Gari_305 -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just like we were supposed to have flying cars by now.

You have 10 for sale right now u/meteorness123

nothing fundamentally will change regarding relationships

The fundamentals don't need to change u/meteorness123 in order for drastic changes to occur. Only a minor variable pivot is all that is needed to warrant such an action.

[–]That__ESTPurple Pill Woman 3 points4 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

So you're suggesting men go to third world countries to live and have their families? Why would men do this? I thought they didn't want families?

[–]Gari_305 -4 points-3 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

So you're suggesting men go to third world countries to live and have their families?

Western Women do the same, u/That__EST simply look @ Gambia and Jamaica as examples but it's more for sex than starting families. That's where the term Rent a Rasta derives from.

Why would men do this?

Because men like to have sex with women who appear beautiful and youthful not old, thus going foreign will become the mainstay.

I thought they didn't want families?

That may be a byproduct of having good sex u/That__EST

[–]teetootom 2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I have a question: does knowing that the younger/more beautiful than you your partner is, the less attracted they are to you bother you and make the sex less enjoyable?

I just turned 24 and the guy I’m dating is 21, and I feel like he’s so much more attractive than me and it worries me sometimes, even though I’m super into him. And that’s not even a huge gap. I always wonder this when old guys hit on me, do you just not care what the other person thinks/feels? if so maybe sex robots really will be a big deal in the future.

[–]Gari_305 -1 points0 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

The reason old guys hit on you is due to biology. ALL men are sexually attracted to youth and beauty, their with that in mind many men won't care on how you feel since men are moving on a biological not logical manner when it comes to dating and mating.

So in regards to empathy, yeah that's just out the door there.

[–]That__ESTPurple Pill Woman 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes I absolutely know this about women doing that.

And I'm not asking why men would marry, I'm asking why men would go live in a third world country to be married.

[–]Gari_305 -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yes I absolutely know this about women doing that.

Then in that case why bother moving forward with the discussion?

Marriage is not the end be all but sex is for us men.

However, since marriage is an issue to you here would be a good start an excerpt:

The Economist concludes that women in Japan and other rich western countries are better educated, career minded, are financially independent and do not see the traditional family as the only way to lead a fulfilling life.

Also see here

Statistics also shows that the marriages of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian men marrying Thai or Indian women tend to last longer than those of Indian men marrying Danish, Swedish or Norwegian wives.

Here's another example is the obesity rate between foreign and American women

Women in the west are seen as more masculine and since wouldn't be wise for men to start a family with western women if he can afford it, in comparison to foreign women

You're also seeing this phenomenon occur with American Black men leaving to go foreign also thus again u/That__EST like cars many men would rather go foreign than deal with domestic women.

[–]LouisdeRouvroy 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women entering the workforce in droves is what made real wages stagnate for the past 40 years.

Now you need two incomes where one was enough.

Women got what they and the boss wanted. They can't complain to have to do all the work though.

Women demanded to join the workforce but they assumed, without asking, that men would pick up the slack in the house chores. Maybe they should have asked before. And men already made these chores easier thanks to their inventions.

Still women acting shocked that others may not be willing to do things they never agreed to do just so women get the life they want is funny. Well girl, you made your bed, you lie in it. You wanted to be out and working then of course you'll pay your share. But that never implied that you'd have to give up your initial share since your new position never freed time for men: it only devaluated their work which is thus still necessary but can no longer support a family.

[–]LordPeppino 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

This sounds depressing as fuck.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

LOL why?

[–]LordPeppino 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're basically implying that we are becoming poorer, so we have to look for a relationship with a financial lenses.

[–]Ok-Limes-50941 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm a guy making six figures in his mid-twenties. I think education and income are a plus, but I ultimately prioritize looks. I don't need something I already have.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great. What if your income was 50K?

[–]Nihi1986 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, sorry, It doesn't affect my attraction or love to that woman. It doesn't matter, not in that field, if I need a flatmate it can be a friend, doesn't need to be my gf, and if I want to live with her and share everything it has to be attractive to me, not going to dump an attractive gf to get an unattractive but wealthy gf.

It's not only for young people, 'everyone' prefers looks and personality over money when it comes to women.

The rare case of whatever age asexual/aromantic weirdos who want a woman mainly just to share responsibilities doesn't count.

Now...her money does matter, to her, if she wants a certain kind of life or a family. With the current economic situation and inflation it matters in that sense but a woman won't be rejected because of money, if she's rejected it's for other reasons.

What's next? Beta bucks women...? You'd have to be starving or to be a manipulative liar to date a woman for her money.

[–]beleidigtewurst -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

As an example, in old, ooold times in my region women weren't just "goods" as in many other cultures

They weren't in any culture. You taking Feminist BS too seriously. Kindergartens were invented 200 years ago, way before "women started to work" in Feminist mythology.

If current trends do continue,

There are measurable things that men and women care about.

They are NOT RATIONAL and likely formed by countless millennia. Hence they cannot change because "economy is getting worse".

[–]earthisyourbutt 5 points6 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Uhhhh.. as a middle eastern I would like to disagree. Def are cultures out there seeing them as goods

[–]beleidigtewurst -2 points-1 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

There is no culture that sees mother, sister, daughter as "goods". And there is no woman that isn't at least one of the three.

[–]earthisyourbutt 4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Ofc you will not see your own family as goods. They are your family, they have impacted your life and mean something. Everyone else on the street tho? You bet. But it’s getting better

[–]beleidigtewurst -2 points-1 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Everyone else on the street tho?

Had it been cultural, it would apply to members of own family too.

As for "on the street", with the same stretch someone could claim "men are seen just as bags of money".

[–]ZealousidealAd7191 -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Its one thing to say two incomes are better than one. That is absolutely true in this economy. It is a different thing for a woman to assume that because they have good jobs they are entitled to higher value men. Having a good job does not make an average woman above average. If you are an average woman and you are excluding average men from your dating pool because you have a good job you are wrong and over valuing yourself. I think that is the heart of the argument RP men are attempting to make however poorly it gets communicated.

[–]RocinanteCoffee 8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nobody is entitled to any "value" of man or women. But additionally, nobody can help who they are attracted to. Stop shaming women for being interested in the men they are interested in. Nobody, regardless of gender should date someone they're not attracted to even if a bystander may find the reason petty.

[–]ZealousidealAd7191 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Im not shaming women, I acknowledge attraction is not entirely a choice and that sometimes presents a problem for dating. I also have seen many women say things to the effect of “you know i wasn’t really attracted to him at first, but…” and now they’re married or in an LTR.

Fact is there are a good portion of men that are invisible to women because they are viewed as “unattractive.” If a woman is blocking herself from finding a partner because she has a good job and thinks that a man who makes only slightly more than her or even less than her isn’t a suitable partner, all while complaining there are no good men, she is wrong.

She is wrong because if her goal is to be in a relationship that is marriage focused, her preferences are producing a negative impact on her accomplishing that goal.

[–]md8716pp theorist -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This just sounds like saying you should compensate for your own mediocrity by latching onto a woman's income.

I propose an alternative solution: don't suck.

That way you don't even need to factor in her income, and can pick primarily based on compatibility and looks. By doing that you open up possibilities with women under the median, as well as over it, therefore doubling your chances of an excellent match.

[–]AidsVictim -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Willingness to work and skills that increase income/make a household more economically efficient? Yes.

However for education I think the opposite is true or at least it's substantially less important. It may actually invert for many men and women in value - high debt loads for increasingly anemic payoffs. In an environment with a decreasing population due to low fertility and increasing energy costs (more expensive oil/coal/renewables) office and service (including health service) jobs become less economically viable and manual labour rises in value - this labour value shift would probably have already happened in the West except for mass immigration. I don't think it's a coincidence the groups that benefit economically the most from this immigration (college educated women) tend to be the most in favor of it.

Education only remains valuable if the economics behind it work out. You also have to consider that college educated women are likely to be less interested in relationships with men that aren't college educated and probably have more expensive lifestyle expectations thus decreasing their partner availability/utility for the increasing number of men eschewing college or women who have degrees with low earning prospects respectively.

Personally I also intensely dislike the typical politics of women that have spent substantial time in academia but how mainstream that viewpoint will become I can't say.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

But a major reason why everything has gotten so expensive is specifically because women work. We doubled the supply of labor without doubling the demand for labor. It should be obvious why wages stagnated.

[–]Willow-girlKeeper of the Jellicles 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is a common fallacy, but it's simply not true. Since the 1940s, there has never been a time when the workforce "doubled." Here is the labor force participation rate going back to 1948, which spans the time when a large number of women entered the workforce. https://www.multpl.com/us-labor-force-participation-rate/table/by-year

The rate trends in a fairly narrow band between 58-68%.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Does the labor force participation rate count stay-at-home-moms?

[–]Willow-girlKeeper of the Jellicles 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The labor force participation rate measures people in the paid workforce, so no, it would not count SAHMs, to the best of my knowledge.

[–]tired_hillbillyredneck -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well thats kinda my point, if they aren't counted in the ~68% that are working, nor the ~32% who aren't, since they're not trying to work, these stats are misleading.

[–]LowCredditL'table, c'est moi! -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A woman's education and income can only hurt her, never help her. This becomes even more true the broker you get. I would rather live in a trailer with my wife homeschooling while I travel to weld than double income at a fast food joint in order to live in the ghetto next to a drug dealer and send my kids to the local school-to-prison pipeline. The women who can't acknowledge this aren't worth marrying because they would rather have a nice apartment than raise your children correctly.

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[–]MeihuajiancaiPurple Pill Man 17 points18 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Every time someone in here makes a claim that men don't care about income or education I just smdh

I am a man with a good career and I sure as hell care about that stuff. This is potentially the mother of my children. You think I want some high school graduate who watches TikTok and Kardashians all day raising my children?! While it isn't an exact 1 to 1 correlation, educated people are usually smarter. For the people claiming that a woman who's slept with more men than they can count on one hand is for recreational use only because of probability statistics, it's pretty telling that statistics get thrown out the window when it comes to education...

[–]badgersonice 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For the people claiming that a woman who's slept with more men than they can count on one hand is for recreational use only because of probability statistics, it's pretty telling that statistics get thrown out the window when it comes to education...

It is indeed. They also throw out the stats when it comes to age-gap marriages, as well as just young age at marriage.

It’s almost like they just cherry pick the statistics that happen to support their desires, and dismiss the rest because that whole divorce rate thing isn’t actually what they care about.

[–]Acaciduh 9 points10 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this is something I often wonder if you do want children in the future. I would think education and intelligence would factor pretty high for the potential mother of your children. I agree there’s got to be a looks threshold but to act like that’s all that matters is pretty dumb to me.

[–]MeihuajiancaiPurple Pill Man 7 points8 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Even if you remove the children factor, I still wouldn't want to spend all day with someone who isn't educated and doesn't have any intellectual interests even if she was a total babe. Kids just makes it doubly important.

And it's not like there aren't intelligent attractive women out there either.

[–]MrsKetchupalpha fucks alpha bucks 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

One of the biggest complaints in the sphere is loneliness, too. So you have guys who simultaneously want a woman in their life to solve their loneliness, but... Also want them to be uneducated? What enthralling interactions they would have lol

[–]Acaciduh 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Yes I totally agree. I think so people may act like it isn’t an issue until they are in a relationship with someone like that and then realize it does.

[–]md8716pp theorist -3 points-2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If you want an educated, intelligent woman to be the mother of your kids, then by all means do it. But it's not at all required to be a good mother.

Literally 90% of the job is just being able to show up and do the damn work. That doesn't change whether she's a PhD or only has a GED.

You're just like the dudes you criticize who picks based on looks alone. You're both just projecting your preferences onto what you think motherhood is all about.

[–]Acaciduh 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

What? I never said you needed a PHD. I said looks can’t be the end all be all. Education and intelligence are also important factors when choosing a partner for both genders. How you got you need to be a rocket scientist to have children by that I can’t help you.

[–]MrsKetchupalpha fucks alpha bucks 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

90% of the job is just being able to show up

If they have a GED they couldn't even show up for high school lmao. Person like that is really gonna be responsible partner material

[–]JoeRMD77 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Amber Heard and that Grimes woman are pretty educated huh? Yeah they're real brainiacs.

[–]CouldYouExplainMore 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Educated" women also watch tiktok all day. To me, it's not so much about how much the woman makes, but if she tries, is frugal, no outrageous expectations for lifestyle. She doesn't have to make a ton to me.

Funnily enough the last "educated" girl I dated watched TikTok all day and didn't have a job.

[–]WilliamWyattD 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The OP is correct that men will need to filter for female accomplishment more, even if they are not as attracted to it as women are to men's.

But an even more important reason to do so is that men might as well. The way the choice dynamics of the two gender's interact, women are establishing tighter and tighter appearance differential thresholds. So even if a man wants to put all his choice points into female looks, the return he will get on doing so is increasingly limited. Even if all he cares about are her looks, he still will find it hard to get a girl much better looking than him, or much better looking than if he had spread his criteria more widely, like women do. So he might as well start filtering for other stuff.

[–]DisasterPeace7Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

While I certainly have no interest in dating a hyper career woman or anything like that, I've put myself in a position financially to where my wife does not have to go out and work, her primary focus is on the children and her heart which is exactly how she and I want it

That being said

I do agree to some extent that men are going to look for a woman's education level more and more if he planned on marrying her or having kids with her but with the money going the way that it's going having that marriage and family may not be on the same checklist of accomplishment for most people so it might be a moot point, so if we're talking about removing the idea or lessening the idea of marrying for love then yeah the two big incomes joining together might be more of a goal, however in general most men don't get the same benefits from marriage that their fathers and grandfathers, etc did so I would say the rates in general marriage rates are just going to keep falling

[–]JumboJetz1 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

If I’m going to have to marry a fat girl which society might force me to do, then yeah I’m going to pick the fat girl who has the most money. I guess we will soon see the rise of the hypergamous man who has exacting standards for the pool of fat women he has to pick a wife from.

[–]JumboJetz 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

If I’m going to have to marry a fat girl which society might force me to do, then yeah I’m going to pick the fat girl who has the most money. I guess we will soon see the rise of the hypergamous man who has exacting standards for the pool of fat women he has to pick a wife from.

[–]Ppdebatesomental 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Keeping it real, lol.

[–]Willow-girlKeeper of the Jellicles 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe you could hook her up to a treadmill hooked to a turbine, and then you would have a skinny wife and free electricity?!

[–]JumboJetz 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like the way you think

[–]JoeRMD77 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's basically what it's coming down to and to hear all these in cells complain that women are the only hypergamous ones is funny. Because just like you said, I'm now looking at these fat women and thinking which one is going to take care of me the best because that's what they're already doing with the other guys.

I feel like in order to get a 6-ft man you're going to at least need to be making 50k as a woman, because all the chicks I know who are taking care of tall men are at least making that much. For us 5'8 pudgy cuties, we still want something close to that but we'll settle for a little less.

[–]labormarket 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Education yes, income no.

You are just using it as a signal…the actual job doesn’t matter.

Ivy League humanities girls are hotter than Ivy League stem girls…

….and while Wharton women are usually prettier than women in other colleges at penn, they are also more “hard”…it’s a toxic combo

[–]Willow-girlKeeper of the Jellicles 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The "beauty" ideal was a big strong woman which could work.

Clearly I was born in the wrong era, lol.

Remember that there are a couple of paths here. Sure, you can pick a high-earning women, but another option is to find one who inclined to be frugal and has good domestic skills, like cooking from scratch.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even today local men are taler and have heavier build. But the biggest difference is with local women, they look like amazonians in comparison with tourists.

I do agree it's not just about the earning potential. Women which are good with "resources" are gold.

[–]Diamond-BreathPastilla Rosa💋 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Being realistic, this will be the downfall of relationships between men and women. Women will always want someone better than them, especially in the financial sense. How can you create the polarity that both sexes want when you need her to survive? Plus, deep down men like to be the leaders and the providers. It'll be chaos all around.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem that we are having is that it takes a long time (generations) for cultural changes to establish themselves. And we have these economic and technological changes thrown at us at much faster pace...

Parents are preparing their children for a world which is already a history.

We are basically living in a constant cultural revolution which is going on since before any of the living people has been alive.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem that we are having is that it takes a long time (generations) for cultural changes to establish themselves. And we have these economic and technological changes thrown at us at much faster pace...

Parents are preparing their children for a world which is already a history.

We are basically living in a constant cultural revolution which is going on since before any of the living people has been alive.

[–]JoeRMD77 -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think women will always want men who make more than them. From everything I keep reading, women are going to have to reevaluate how they look at men as a gender going forward because most men are not going to be making as much as them. So yeah, over the generations women will start to look at men more like Partners than someone that's actually better than them who they have to rely on because when you think about it why would a woman want a man who's better than them unless they have to rely on them? If everyone's taking care of themselves and things are equal, you don't have to rely on someone who's better anymore. You just have to have someone who's equal to you to make you happy.

I know too many women who settled for physical attractiveness and just date some tall guy who doesn't make as much as them so they're already starting to settle. Just because a guy's taller doesn't make him better than a woman if he's not pulling the rest of his weight, it's just some tall lazy guy. That tall lazy guy isn't better than his shorter counterpart who pulls double the weight. We're already seeing women start to reject providers because of physical attributes and this will only continue on. Just because a man's 6 ft doesn't mean he's better than you.

[–]Ppdebatesomental 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What we are seeing is even more assortive mating on income and occupation that used to be centered on class. The number 1 occupation that male doctors married used to be nurses, now it’s female doctors. Men here like say they would marry Hooter waitresses but in real life, men no longer marry down either. You aren’t going to find anyone these days willing to marry an financial liability

[–]SoIlikeMangos 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is known that children will more likely pursue further education if their mom has gone to university

[–]daddysgotanew 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I couldn’t care less what a woman’s job is. I’m anti-marriage, anti-cohabitation, and anti-children. I’ve dated an attorney and I’ve dated a woman who didn’t even graduate high school and only made $500 a week pre-tax at 29; and everything in between. It only matters if you’re a broke ass yourself or you want to get married and have kids. And if I had the choice? Guess which one of those girls I’d fuck again-hint: it isn’t the lawyer….

Me? I’ll make six figs in the next 2-3 years. Young and hot is what matters. Everything else will be secondary.

[–]AdditionalPrice7336 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't relate to any of this.

[–]SerotoninSyndrome666 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You should know that women make up 2/3 of college graduates these days (US data at least). Men are going to earn less than women on average some day sooner than later. In my personal life, every woman I’ve dated has out earned me at least by a little bit and often by a lot.

[–]smallstarseekerCritical thinker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know, but also more men will enter the workforce faster and without student debt.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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