I think most men know their league of who is too hot for them. But do women just NOT have an awareness of who is too attractive for them?

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-11-07T15:17:28+00:00

Discussion posts must be neutral

UrFoodMolestedMyNose · 2021-11-07T11:38:17+00:00

I think men just find out their place in the smv hierarchy faster.

For them it stops at the first interaction. You approach a woman out of your league, she ignores or laughed at you.

For women this process is no where as clear.

You’ll encounter all sorts of guys on all levels giving you attention. Not only that, trying to sleep with you. Sure most are likely going to stop at sex but any guy can do that. It isn’t an immediate sign like being ignored or laughed at is to men.

The point is, There are a lot more hurdles of attraction being passed with all types of men as a woman leading to it taking much longer to find out your true place. As a guy if A woman isn’t into you you likely won’t even get past registration.

Puzzled9999 · 2021-11-07T10:44:06+00:00

I don’t think men or women differ that much in shooting for partners out of their league. Like sure there’s a portion of the population that is completely delusional about where they rank but most people have a general idea. Men and women just get rejected at different points in the courtship process. Generally if a man aims too high he gets rejected at the approach stage. If a woman aims too high she gets rejected after sex/before commitment. But why can’t women “play the numbers game” like men if they want to? Maybe that one 9.5/10 dude finds something about her that makes him see her as a good match for him. If she wants to take the risk of sleeping with him in hopes he sticks around then that’s pretty much the same as some random guy walking up to the hottest chick at the bar and shooting his shot. You have to play to win you can’t play to “not lose”. In the end who cares what other peoples dating strategies are just play your own game.

kittenated · 2021-11-07T12:49:43+00:00

Some women do, some women don't. The same as some men do and some men don't.

They ALL go for the top 5ish percent guys. End of, no compromise or second thought. ZERO self awareness or regard as to whether they're anywhere near that level of attractiveness themselves. Just boom, beeline for the same guys.

We all do, do we? I don't think we all do.

CimZim · 2021-11-07T13:16:02+00:00

Is this partly due to women being less introspective and less aware, more emotional and less realistic, or is it REALLY that 90 odd percent of men aren't even attractive enough for a fat lass?

Neither. The truth is that you're not seeing those of us who are aiming for our smv or lower. This probably isn't even your fault, it could just be a unconscious blind spot aka "counting the hits, ignoring the misses".

Also, it's not like you know most women or could even realistically be said to know most women in just your city alone. What you're seeing is extroverted women who have very high self-esteem (yes, possibly even unhealthy levels for some) and are shooting for as high as they can. I've had female friends like this in the past, and when I brought up the...potential differences in their smv, I was essentially told "he's just a pretty boy for fun" or "if you want to win the lottery you have to play" or yes, sometimes "we'll I'm a good catch despite X". So sure, you are absolutely seeing what a percentage of women decide to do.

But you're not seeing those of us who go for guys at our own level. I think I'm a high 6 or a low 7 in looks and have always dated guys that conventionally would be rated as 5-7...around my height (5'7"), typically overweight by 20-30 pounds, nerdy looking, sometimes balding. Trust me, they weren't unfortunate, they weren't beaten with an ugly stick, but they would never be considered hot by typical standards. Like, y'know when incels post pictures of themselves, and they're just average looking guys? That's the kind of men I chose to message and pursue.

Why? Because I don't really like dudes who look like chads or models...they're kinda plastic, like not "real" people. It'd be like dating a sex doll lol. But also I know there's no reason for a conventionally attractive guy to want me, so it's just better to keep in my lane.

unfknblvbe · 2021-11-07T10:29:07+00:00

Its different becuase dudes will still bang a girl they have zero intrest in maintaining a relationship with where as vice versa we do not see such a dynamic.

WilliamWyattD · 2021-11-07T10:42:11+00:00

You have to think about the component factors of why a woman would not want to aim out of her league. First, there is the idea he will cheat on her. Second, there is the more responsive nature of female desire: the desire triggered based on being desired. Since we do adjust our attraction triggers to out own perceived attractiveness levels, many women had trouble imagining they could really be desire by a much hotter guy. Finally, there is the worry that he is 'dogging' or slumming or just fucking downwards because there is nothing else available, and he will thus use and discard quickly.

All of these factors used to keep women more in their league back in the day. Women I knew were suspicious of a guy a lot hotter than them hitting on them, and often turned them away. But while innate female traits are strong, powerful enough cultural messages can modify them to a surprising degree, at least so long as those cultural inputs are maintained.

I would say that today's culture messages, from 'you go girl feminism' to the supply/demand driven attention given on OLD/Social Media to body positivity have all combined to alter the instincts of many women. A lot of women believe they can 'fuck like men' with a more active and less responsive sexuality that bases its desire more on objectifying the man's beauty combined with the dopamine status hit of bagging a hot guy. They also believe women can detach sex from emotion like men can, using men for pleasure as stereotypical men could back in the day. Finally, the above cultural forces have changed what a woman believes to be her league. The imbalance of online attention and ego boosting has a lot of women basically thinking that women simply start at a much higher base league than all men now, and this scales up. All women are innately much better looking than men, and have more innate value in the dating market thane men. A properly dolled-up overweight woman feels not only as hot as a fit guy, but more valuable overall. When asked 'what do you bring to the table?' many women feel that 'they are the table'. It's men that need to bring something. A woman brings herself.

Now, not all of the above changes in female attitude are entirely new, and there is some truth to some of them. But the extent to which many women feel this is new. As a result, in key demographics, I think we are seeing a change. Anecdotally, I'm seeing more wealthy or famous women willing to date younger, hotter men--even marry them. These elite are often the vanguard of cultural change. You see more objectification of male beauty everywhere, and women feeling that what would once have been considered both better looking and higher value men to be their true league, if not below them. Who knows how sustainable this trend is. We are in a unique gender and technology experiment. Things could go anywhere.

AquaChip · 2021-11-07T13:36:43+00:00

I’m guessing you haven’t checked an Instagram model’s comments lately.

TheWitchFromEast · 2021-11-07T13:50:09+00:00

Considering the amount of pudgy, balding dudes having the audacity to hit on the hottest 20 something chicks at bars and lounges, I’m gonna disagree. Men seriously have no idea about their own (un)attractiveness. Most men calling themselves “average” are only like a 3 or a 4. This is something I’ve found out on the tinder and OLD subs on here. Doesn’t stop them from whining or having insane standards though.

Women underrate themselves. Most women I know are easily a 7+ but they have self esteem issues for some reason and insist on being called just average. Ladies, do better!

Hard_Thruster · 2021-11-07T10:36:02+00:00

There is a lot more involved in mate selection than physical attraction, as subjective as it is.

But to answer your question, yes, everyone is aware of their relative value in the mating market.

The notion of women all running 🏃‍♀️ to the same man is just incel fiction. Idk a single woman who is interested in sharing her man.

JacobMoogberg69 · 2021-11-07T11:41:56+00:00

Lol, do you even interact with actual human females in your life?

Demasii · 2021-11-07T11:26:22+00:00

Women on the other hand, from what I've seen from how single girls I know (i work in a gym and know a lot of young women casually) and of the girls I've dated, a lot of them from tinder literally seem to think like this.

Possibly a sampling bias. Gym going women tend to have higher standards and go to the gym specifically to try to raise their own SMV.

OLD dating is a mess. Impressions are based solely on pictures. Filtered photos are the only thing to go by. It's not an environment for real SMV to shine through.

SaBahRub · 2021-11-07T11:41:56+00:00

You just remember the delusional better than the non delusional

crookedsummer2019 · 2021-11-07T12:10:28+00:00

I think a lot of it is due to the fact that men are much much much more likely to fuck a woman who is making herself available to him, even if she’s out of his league.

This may lead to some women not being aware of their attractiveness level.

xQueen-Bx · 2021-11-07T13:39:18+00:00

its almost like the red pill is right about hypergamy. there is zero benefit to women in "Settling"

blacklabcoat · 2021-11-07T13:44:08+00:00

If anything, my experience is the complete opposite. I can’t think of a single example of a woman I know with this pattern, and maybe only a couple of men who tend to go mostly for very conventionally attractive women. I would say it’s not generalizable in terms of gender.

Regardless, what makes someone attractive is different for different people.

Playful_Art_5364 · 2021-11-07T14:06:28+00:00

I’ve been ignoring my league since forever. -sincerely all dudes who can take many no’s before a yes

neetykeeno · 2021-11-07T14:38:53+00:00

From what I have seen the girls who shoot as high as possible do pretty well from it if they are highly extroverted and don't mind casual sex. They go through a bunch of men, enjoy the process immensely, and when they do settle down it is usually will the absolute top of what they can get.

But most girls aren't that extroverted and don't shoot for anything. They put out occasional tentative indicators of interest and then spend a bit of time working out if they personally want each guy who notices (that culls a lot of guys at every objective value rank.... don't fall into the trap of thinking being high value is enough to make you equally acceptable to all women of lower value....just because you have a market price on something doesn't mean everyone is buying) and if they think a relationship with him leads to where they want...this process encourages guys who won't wait to cull themselves and gives a chance to reality test a few things.

I am with the people who think you are probably just noticing the most extroverted women more. That's pretty typical male behaviour. You are probably a typical male

Aran82 · 2021-11-07T15:05:30+00:00

It’s mainly that men have virtually no floor of attraction and will routinely reach down. A top tier guy in the right circumstances sleep with very low grade women now you combine that with all the simping that goes on it makes even ugly women think they are 8/9.

Elevatedheart · 2021-11-07T15:14:25+00:00

This is all completely arbitrary. Some guys like heavy women other guys like skinny. Some like large breasts, others like small. Some like curves, some like tall. There’s enough to go around and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your version of hot may not apply to everyone. Same goes in the other direction.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-11-07T10:40:05+00:00

I think most men know their league of who is too hot for them.

They're not the ones whining about 80/20 rule, AWALT, Chad, etc. Most men laugh at the manosphere.

But do women just NOT have an awareness of who is too attractive for them?

The issue with the manosphere is that we have guys thinking "I'm a male 5, I should get a female 5" when he's actually a male 3 and she's a female 8. The other problem is that they can't accept that most women don't have men's libido. Most women don't find hookups appealing and that pisses of a lot of men not in the "most men" category. So it doesn't matter if he's a 5 and she's a 5, if she doesn't want to fuck him, why should she? Also, if the male 5 is an insufferable loser, his overall rating goes down.

Whenever they describe the "average woman", it's never the average woman. She's manipulating three or more simps at once, she loves getting fucked by Chad while exploiting her sexless simps, and she posts pics of her ass, titties, and kitty for attention. This is a bimbo, an e-thot. So it's more that those guys think 8s are 5s.

a lot of them from tinder

See. Guys here think instagram, OnlyFans, and Tinder is real life. Most men know that it's not. Most women do not look like caked up e-thots and porn stars.

And if you live in America, the fat girl is the average girl. And the fat guy is the average guy.

Gigamon2014 · 2021-11-07T12:30:32+00:00

God in heaven. Can we kill this idea that all women are exclusively the preserve tall, good looking chads. I'm a tall good-looking guy myself, it's nice but it has plenty of drawbacks. There are as many women turned off by you than there are ones turned on.

Jesus, women DO NOT go for the top 5 percent of guys either. This is such bullshit and nothing in the data reflects that outside of OLD stats...which I'm starting to lean on being bullshit. The majority of people, even in our hyper connected generations, are not on OLD apps. Yes, being tall/muscular/handsome is a definite advantage but it doesn't extend beyond really increasing your likelihood of success.

Interestingly though, I agree with women lacking introspection. I've seen that first hand. But not in regards to standards. If anything I think women are even more self aware than men are when it comes to their looks (larger/visibly ugly women never approach me). But rather in their expectations in terms of relationships and sex. I don't notice women being delusional about their "place" rather them being delusional about expectations of behaviour conducive to a fruitful/meaningful relationships or even casual liaisons.

Orange_Paisley · 2021-11-07T11:16:13+00:00

Women generally know if a guy is too hot for them, yes. I’ve looked at men skeptically if I thought they could do better than me but are hitting on me. Waiting for the sales pitch.

Forsaken-Vermicelli3 · 2021-11-07T13:16:29+00:00

This is a fallacy. I have severally heard women talk about how a certain guy is out of their league and how they are too intimated to shoot their shot. Especially in terms of class-wealth.

Gabrielvrape · 2021-11-07T11:04:44+00:00

They do they just don't understand that a guy wanting you sexually does not mean he wants an LTR with you. They eventually grow out of that and get humbled a lot.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2021-11-07T10:27:35+00:00

Lol they do...

It is reflected in behavior...

Just tonight some chick spent so much time telling me about how pretty/beautiful I am and being insanely weird/insecure. Prob like 20 minutes of it.

It all started when I just sort of happened to be at the bar in her vicinity.

Honestly that way of thinking shoots people in the foot. It shot her in the foot. It shoots plenty of guys in the foot.

You can recognize that people generally play by league rules while at the same time mostly disregarding them in your romantic pursuits...

BoogersAndSugar · 2021-11-07T11:56:34+00:00

They think because a guy wants to bang them he must be romantically attracted to them. It's mainly younger women doing this, who still have yet to figure out that her league is the guys who will commit to her, not the ones who will bang her.

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michael1962-01 · 2021-11-07T11:53:22+00:00

A woman too hot 4 me? Pics or you are talking 'bout aliens.

funlightmandarin · 2021-11-07T12:31:42+00:00

Commenting your title: women out of men's league will ignore them, or get nasty if he thinks he has a chance with them. Men out of women's league will talk sweet words into her ears, promise her the world and then dip.

Prize-Thought-4205 · 2021-11-07T13:03:55+00:00

Change that to top 20% irl and top 5% on OLD websites and maybe: the truth is all the lesser attractive girls want the best guy willing to make them orgasm they can get if they’re not looking for something serious. They don’t care the top guys will never settle with them. After many years of sleeping around the only thing that will make girls who value that & are stuck in that cycle stop will either be getting knocked up or losing attractiveness until they’re forced to settle down with a nicer naive guy who hasn’t seen women like her & doesn’t understand how flawlessly countless women can manipulate men.

Sen_ri · 2021-11-07T14:07:21+00:00

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sjop.12631

Overall, unattractive participants judged themselves to be of about average attractiveness and they showed very little awareness that strangers do not share this view. In contrast, attractive participants had more insights into how attractive they actually are. If anything, they underestimated their attractiveness.

Overestimating your attractiveness is not specific to women. Men do the same thing. Why do all the guys on dating apps send tons of messages to the most beautiful women? And so many send DM’s to Instagram models? Does that not count as aiming out of your league?

kyjolski · 2021-11-07T14:16:36+00:00

It's because they are spoilt for choice via OLD where enough guys above their own SMV are totally willing to jump their bones. This, plus an unhealthy interpretation of XYZ-positivity movements.

So basically - why care when I can still get a better man, even if it takes a while, he'll come around. And also - why do anything when I'm great just as I am and need to celebrate that.

Fickle_Razzmatazz392 · 2021-11-07T14:20:50+00:00

Big agree.

Prestigious-Mud-1304 · 2021-11-07T14:35:55+00:00

Logically it would be nonsensical for a man to shoot above his league because that would mean challenging the men on the top of the pecking order but for women, especially in this era not so much because it's not about keeping that top guy(I don't think most women are that delusional) but about getting access to him.

i_pysh · 2021-11-07T14:54:51+00:00

Yes.

Wildhouse83 · 2021-11-07T12:33:23+00:00

One factor contributing to this is male polygamy vs female hypergamy.

Another factor is false interpretation of the attention received by the other gender: Since men are quite realistic regarding their own SMV they try their luck with their looks-match mostly. Therefore I would assume that women who are approached the most are in the 4 to 7 range. On the other hand, the men who get the most female attention are 8+ guys. As a result, being approached quite often as a man makes you a top tier man. Being approached quite often as a woman makes you an average woman. Online dating is enforcing this reception.

Third factor is the misconception of sex and realtionship. Only because a man is willing to have sex with or is attracted to a woman does not mean that he likes her, is willing to enter a realtionship etc. On the other hand, just because a woman is willing to marry a man does not mean that she finds him attractive, wants to have sex etc.