If you believe the core tenant of masculinity is the subjugation of others, you can’t be upset that many thus associate masculinity negatively.

Radiant_Bliss · 2021-07-07T00:33:32+00:00

A critical part of one's masculinity is the subjugation of one's ego while aggressively cultivating the competency which conversely builds it up.

AidsVictim · 2021-07-06T23:10:22+00:00

Aggression and competitiveness aren't intrinsically tied to subjugation or enacting violence on others.

I personally view aggression/violence as a side effect of biological maleness.

There is plenty of aggression on display in womens sports, corporations, or whatever kind of competitive environment, albeit typically less intense or ubiquitous than the male equivalent. It always seemed strange to me how many women have this idea that aggression, violence, and war are purely consequences of maleness.

Lotus_82 · 2021-07-07T01:17:57+00:00

I’m trained to fight. I’ve been doing martial arts and combat sports all my life. But I’ve learned that what makes me a man is my capacity to master my emotions. So that whenever pride, anger, sadness or ambition tickle my capacity for agression or violence (verbal or otherwise), I know how to contain my emotions instead of just exploding and giving other people the satisfaction of knowing they have the power to make me lose it.

If someone else can cause you to lose control then they can push you in any direction they want by using your weakness against you. A man knows how to channel his agression so that it can be used in a way that isn’t inherently self destructive.

TomorrowsWar · 2021-07-06T20:49:19+00:00

Wanton aggression sounds like an emotional issue to me. If you can’t regulate your emotions and you kick and scream when you’re angry that makes you petulant. It has nothing to do with maleness or masculinity. We allow men to act this way sometimes and we encourage it/find use for it at times. But there’s a difference in being masculine/strong and being a big baby.

SonicBackScratcher · 2021-07-06T20:47:24+00:00

I think Jordan Peterson said it very well, and I can already feel people tensing up, and I'm going to paraphrase because its easier.

The best men are dangerous, they can become a monster, they sometimes need to be a monster in hard times, but also control it and not be controlled by it.

Lateralanouncer · 2021-07-07T03:54:07+00:00

Aggression is an emotion. Make a man emotional and his aggressive nature will come out. For example, prison is full of men brought up by solo mothers.

As Rollo would say. Boys are brought up to be defective girls. Why not teach our sons to be strong and independent of the opposite sex like girls are.

vovin2 · 2021-07-06T21:20:10+00:00

Testosterone doesn't cause aggression, it causes status seeking and easiest way to obtain status is violence.

I was watching "a bronx tale" today and there are two characters with opposite views, one believes that it is better to be loved than feared, another believes the opposite, both of them are masculine and tough as fuck, now which one is right? According to ending it was De Niro's character.

So my point is that, this film shows both negative and positive sides of masculinity and leaves it to the viewers to decide which one is better, problem is that today, only negative side of masculinity is portrayed, so instead of Lorenzo, there would be supper woke Jessica & Amanda going against Sonny and saving the day, ending would be "masculinity bad, men bad, patriarchy bad", instead of more powerful message which in the end celebrates masculinity, not shames it.

This is some good stuff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxwBHoxHI8

I think most of the problem men have with modern MSM is that it only shits on masculinity and portrays "femininity" as superior way to live.

lulll · 2021-07-07T12:54:30+00:00

they're doing this: something hinting at violence = masculinity

that's really all it is lol. they're desperate to be viewed as a violent person. you can safely assume they're also the types who believe in the whole cull the herd strong men create weak men destroy etc shit that's been circling the manosphere toilet for years at this point. they are simps for the "masculinity" described to them in youtube videos.

NICHIJOU2411 · 2021-07-06T23:52:30+00:00

Ngl I think all men should play some type of contact sport to “relieve” them from some aggression. Worked for me for the most part.

Shirts_Pants · 2021-07-06T21:39:23+00:00

More like men are upset because masculinity has increasingly negative associations yet in the context of this sub women keep flocking to masculine men no matter how shitty they are. Rest assured if women actually preferred soft beta men there would be no masculine men.

Megabyte7637 · 2021-07-07T22:02:20+00:00

What?

Smoogs2 · 2021-07-07T17:50:36+00:00

If you believe the core tenant of masculinity is the subjugation of others, you can’t be upset that many thus associate masculinity negatively.

Yes you can. You can believe the core tenant of monarchy or religion is the act of subjugation of your people (to a ruler or a god) and it still be a positive thing. Plenty of people are religious and believe they are obedient to god and are obviously upset if you associate that negatively.

Goodthingstartssmall · 2021-07-06T20:51:35+00:00

Viewing overexerting aggression and overly dominant behaviour that purposely puts others down as toxic is absolutely right.

But feminism starts to call every trait of masculinity that doesn't work in women's favour as toxic. Especially in individual settings women are just to fast to call men toxic if he doesn't agree with her. Of course they acknowledge masculinity to some extent but the lines are volatile. It's like you have to do painting by numbers with a huge surface brush.

a_blackcel_appears · 2021-07-06T20:39:31+00:00

IMO, masculinity is mastery of one’s own maleness.

No it's not. That's a romantic view if anything.

anglophobe44 · 2021-07-06T20:28:01+00:00

It's the distinction between what men define as masculinity/"a real man" and what women define as masculinity/"a real man".

Men tended to have a well-rounded ideal of what constitutes a good man. If you read ethical philosophers like Epictetus, a lot of this was focused on concepts like virtue ethics. A real man was something more than just a sexually desirable man: he was a leader to other men around him, dependable, mentally resilient etc.

I think to a woman, a "real man" is essentially just a sexually desirable man, the other ideas aren't really contributive factors.

NameGiver0 · 2021-07-07T02:07:47+00:00

Why would anyone believe subjugation has anything to do with subjugation?

And masculinity doesn’t have tenants. It’s not a belief system.

This statement seems to conflate masculinity with domination. They’re orthogonal.

There are really dominant women out there and really submissive men.

If the only time you don’t feel “emasculated” is if everyone, and especially women, is deferring to you, then you have to know you’re going to ruffle some feathers?

That’s just an insecure person.

There are very masculine hermits. Who are they subjugating? Plants?

To me masculinity is honor, integrity, and a willingness to self sacrifice for the good of your family or tribe. Some physical prowess or ability. Maybe a beard or big muscles. A general hersuiteness maybe.

There are very masculine men who have never subjugated so much as a puppy.

Taipanshimshon · 2021-07-07T03:58:48+00:00

There are two non fungible aspects to masculinity. Fucking and fighting.

Anyone who equates " fucking" with "rape" is dumb

Maxarc · 2021-07-07T00:26:03+00:00

Testosterone causes aggression. So aggression is manly.

The validity of this claim is complicated. While it's true that testosterone generates more violent tendencies, it does not paint a complete picture. We are a social species too. In fact, we are the most socially complex animals out there. We are the only species able to create culture and use complex language.

Culture can warp many natural tendencies we have, because our brains are very adaptable and generally shape according to what promotes survival during, and after growing up. This fact alone makes our adaptability to the systems we inhabit just as much our nature. There is much proof that cultural and social norms change the effects of testosterone. Because we adapt to social stimuli, men are therefore not inherently violent and testosterone does not inherently cause being violent to manifest itself as a trait. It only does so under specific circumstances.

What's interesting to note is that violence causes an increase in testosterone amounts in the body. So not only is the causation between violence and testosterone only happening in specific circumstances, it's also hard to measure what amount of it causes violence and what amount of it is created during violent stimuli. What's also interesting is that this study shows that higher amounts of testosterone indeed increases aggressive behaviour, but that higher amounts of cortisol and serotonin can balance it out again, which suggests that it's too reductive to isolate testosterone from other hormones too.

I felt the need to type out this post to make people question what it actually means to be a man and think about how complex nature claims are to make in a precise manner. Most of the time they are too essentialist. But the main reason for this post is because I think that it creates too many situations in where men are treated unfairly, or treated like they are violent, dangerous or uncivilised on default. They are definitely not, but society still treats them as such. People often read studies about inmates having higher testosterone amounts and then draw the conclusion that testosterone causes violence. But they forget that being subjected to violent stimuli generates testosterone and confuse causation with correlation. It's simply way too nuanced to coherently write about in a pop-science article.

TrueCenterRealist · 2021-07-07T01:56:25+00:00

The core tenant of masculinity is strength.

This entire post is gaslighting, I’m not even convinced it’s not bait.

Aldabruzzo · 2021-07-07T00:24:24+00:00

I question the premise of the post. You presume that any tenet of masculinity is subjugation of others. Certainly i don't think we can say a tenet of masculinity, as expressed sexually, is necessarily subjugation of others.

I really don't understand where you are coming from on this. Is someone asserting, or did someone assert, that masculinity's core tenet, or feature, or objective, is subjugation of others? Such that if it doesn't subjugate others, then it's not true masculinity?

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goblin_champ · 2021-07-06T23:48:30+00:00

Its the way that masculinity is demonized, without acknowledging the positives, that people are upset with.

Aggression is not a bad thing. It can be a good thing. Aggression can be used to defeat dangerous opponents, to instill fear in predators to protect yourself and your family, and to gain respect from peers.

If you only focus on aggression in terms of conquering others, that is when you take it and make it into a negative thing.

The same applies to being competitive. Men being competitive is the reason for progress and development. It can also be the cause of destruction and war. So there is good and bad.

If men had much less testosterone and therefore were less aggressive and not competitive, we may not have destruction and war (at least from the male side) but we also would not have progress and development the way we do today.

And that is the issue with how masculinity is portrayed. Its not a bad thing. Its a neutral characteristic. The way it is used depends on the person and situation.

Haljeit · 2021-07-06T22:41:39+00:00

Who’s upset? Betas who want to be or think they are alpha are the only ones who cry. Real alphas are too busy enjoying their spoils.

Fleischpeitsch · 2021-07-06T21:05:18+00:00

No one believes this.

Anyone who associates masculinity negatively is projecting their daddy issues. Masculinity is a beautiful thing.

4D-Alien · 2021-07-06T20:29:23+00:00

same can be said that a women subjugates all other men when she goes home with the masculine man instead of the dorky geeks.

it is what it is.

sometimes life isnt fair or equal.

heyitsjeape · 2021-07-06T21:03:07+00:00

I don’t believe that and I am not sure many people do.

gunbusterxl · 2021-07-06T20:35:23+00:00

I think you’re dealing with a vocal minority. Most men understand this, and expect to be treated accordingly. TBH, id rather be treated with suspicion and caution than be patronized and coddled.

SnooSprouts1580 · 2021-07-06T20:42:16+00:00

All aggression and subjugation shouldn't be viewed negatively. It's necessary for society to function.

passepar2t · 2021-07-07T06:22:31+00:00

Tenet

just_a_place · 2021-07-07T02:46:08+00:00

You know that Men have the ability to conquer and to be loved for it at the same time right?

Why do you think we love Astronauts? A conquering spirit DOES NOT MEAN being an asshole. Conquest does not equal violence although violence can be applied in service of a good cause such as liberation from tyranny or as a last measure in the defense of someone in mortal danger where nothing less than lethal force is necessary to save the innocent from the violent. Sometimes violence is the antidote to violence, look at WWII for example. You think fascism was ever going to stop is we simply asked very very nicely that they please not press their jackboots over our necks?

Aggression and Violence are just some among a plethora of masculine expressions, it is NOT it's definition.

You know what else defines masculinity? Industry, Curiosity, Boldness, Daring, Exploration, Invention, Innovation, Virility, Perseverance, Mastery, Competition, Protectiveness etc.

The mastery of one's self is a Virtue among men because our maleness drives us to conquer and master our natural environment and the greatest of all challenges is in mastering our own internal nature, conquering our own ego, our own body, our own desires, urges and thoughts are the pinnacle of masculine dominance. Any ape with a big enough stick can subjugate a neighbor through violence, but only a Man can subjugate his own nature and bend it to his will. This is no small feat. In fact, the evolution of such an ability is what is believed to be the precursor to our intelligence. The ape that conquered his own drives and is able to delay gratification in the now in order to reap the benefit of a bigger reward latter.

The only time one doesn't feel emasculated is when one's masculinity is not up for others do decide!

You do know that Men have the ability to conquer and to be loved for it at the same time right? Why do you think we love Astronauts? A conquering spirit DOES NOT MEAN being an asshole. Conquest does not equal violence although violence can be applied in service of a good cause such as liberation from tyranny or as a last measure in the defence of someone in mortal danger where nothing less than lethal force is necessary to save the innocent from the violent. Sometimes violence is the antidote to violence, look at WWII for example. You think fascism was ever going to stop is we simply asked very very nicely that they please not press their jackboots over our necks?

The challenges of masculinity can only be solved through masculine acts of valor, daring, and boldness; even the feminists know this, which is why they themselves never do any action to physically stop violent crimes or to stop any wars but rather limit themselves to berating men to step up and put a check on the worst aspects of other men. They recognize that only men can stop other men because - as unsavory as it sounds to the most ardent feminist- men do in fact hold the monopoly on violence; both as individuals and as a collective. Combined with our ability to organize, fraternize, bond, and coordinate for a greater cause men should be - as Camille Paglia puts it - regarded with a mix of gratitude and rational fear.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." What this means is that Men are the force that keeps the evil of other men in check usually through violence, or the threat of violence. Take as an example how it was men and only men who put a stop to the spreading of pure fascist evil across the globe which culminated in the Second World War.

Feminism has undermined this by betraying women and alienating men. They have not only removed all incentive for men to do good in the world, they have even started to vilify good men and disparage the very qualities of masculinity needed to keep evil men in check. They remove the part and demand the function. They insult, demean, vilify, disrespect, and laugh at men while demanding that we respect, defend, provide and protect them as a show of gratitude for their offense! And then they act shocked when men get angry and stop caring. They can't fathom why men do not step up to their demands and instead walk away in angry disgust and deep disappointment. It's a puzzle to them.

chief-w · 2021-07-07T02:19:32+00:00

Okay... But what if you don't?

Cedo_Alteram · 2021-07-07T01:16:11+00:00

Probably deserves its own post, but here we go:

The core tenet of masculinity is zero sum strategy. The core tenet of feminism is positive sum strategy.

KurkTheMagnificent · 2021-07-06T23:04:01+00:00

Haven't perfected my definition yet, but roughly speaking:

Masculine: low in agreeableness

Feminine: high in agreeableness

among other things

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-07-06T22:44:54+00:00

There is an underlying desire of subjugation for species with sex-specific differences so I'm confused as to why people are trying to smash this round block into the square "masculinity" space.

If males and females both posses this "masculine" behavior, trying to link it to men becomes pointless.

LowCreddit · 2021-07-06T22:43:00+00:00

Aggression is not manly. Assertiveness is. Assertiveness can involve aggression, but most aggression is actually a sign of weakness. It is the small and weak dog that barks the loudest. It is the same in humans. The dominant man gets what he wants by default. The weak man looks for schemes or becomes so nervous that aggression comes out.

carly_rae_bopsen · 2021-07-06T21:55:18+00:00

How does aggression = subjugation? Aggression can be linked to dominance and competitiveness, both parts of masculinity, much easier than that. Subjugation is probably known as "toxic masculinity".

BecretAlbatross · 2021-07-06T21:27:45+00:00

Masculinity itself is purely just qualities that result from high testosterone. So someone can be masculine without having any discipline or control of it. Imo women are attracted to masculinity period, regardless of whether the person in control of it has other good qualities.

But yes, you're 100% right that masculinity without other positive qualities is not a good thing. Imo "paternal" qualities are a good example of the positive manifestation of masculinity. Blue collar work is a positive manifestation of masculine traits.

mudeating · 2021-07-06T20:35:45+00:00

I personally view aggression/violence as a side effect of biological maleness.

IMO, masculinity is mastery of one’s own maleness. And so, wanton aggression isn’t the pinnacle of masculinity for me. It’s simply base maleness.

Which sect of christianity suggest that?

By that logic

Chad sexuality and hypergamy, female solipsism, af/bb are base femaleness.

Title	If you believe the core tenant of masculinity is the subjugation of others, you can’t be upset that many thus associate masculinity negatively.
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	130
Comments	365
Date	July 6, 2021 8:23 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/of3a0i/if_you_believe_the_core_tenant_of_masculinity_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-you-believe-the-core-tenant-of-masculinity-is.789053 https://theredarchive.com/post/789053