Is aiming at 50/50 ever going to be fair to women?

badgersonice · 2023-05-09T14:38:53+00:00

Aiming for fairness is the best you can do— you’ll never actually be able to truly get there, and you shouldn’t obsess over it.

For example, when a couple has a brand new infant, and the woman is breastfeeding every 2 hours… is it “fair” that her husband doesn’t take care of any of the breastfeeding? What’s the exact exchange rate for one breastfeeding session— is it for him to do all the dishes, or only 3/4, or more than the dishes? What if it was a lot of pots and pans vs a few?

Now what about when he has norovirus? Is it fair for her to do all the chores? Is it fair for him to clean up his own vomit and stay in one bathroom (and bleach it) so they don’t both get sick?

then does it make sense for women to always want some sort of upfront hypergamous compensation, perhaps in terms of him being higher relative mate value, higher status, more resources, etc.?

This is such a sickening, prostitutional way to think about a relationship. It’s stupid and unhealthy to obsess over whether everything will be exactly fair, or to fuss over trading money for sex with someone you want as a spouse.

Like yes, there is a great deal of value in domestic labor and in reproductive labor, and women on average do most of that work. But what kind of price are you putting on your child’s birth? Are you really gonna pay her $250k cash bonus for each birth (supposedly what Donald paid Ivanal for each child… probably should have paid less for Jr, lol)? Plus extra for breastfeeding, and more for childcare, etc?

Or can you accept that true generosity and kindness are not tallied and exchanged like it’s an accounting book? I cannot begin to evaluate whether my husband and my relationship is “fair”— we have made sacrifices and put in tons of effort for each other. I wouldn’t even want to know that either I or he had “done more”. I would rather be satisfied knowing we both do what we can to make our family as a team succeed.

ROBYoutube · 2023-05-09T11:57:19+00:00

There is absolutely no excuse for not sharing household responsibilities. If you are an adult and cannot equally contribute towards keeping a decent home you are an embarrassment.

Makuta_Servaela · 2023-05-09T12:54:14+00:00

There are some points that can just never reach that, like pregnancy/childbirth/nursing, and the physical ailments and life-threatening issues that can come from them. But beyond that I think the fairness can work. There is nothing a male can do that can compensate for the fact that pregnancy and childbirth can maim or kill the woman. There are so many pregnancy related pains and long term side effects that most people don't even know because if they did, we'd have a lot less women wanting to have kids.

Of course, the fairness would have to be what works for the couple, not just splitting everything in half. If your partner, for example, is disabled and can't stand for very long, you can't reasonably expect them to do 50% of the work that requires standing. If your partner just prefers to take care of the kids more and you prefer not to, it's nice to help, but you don't need to intrude on their space.

RayRayGD · 2023-05-09T12:56:14+00:00

As the birth rate continues to go down, and people begin to question the role of women and procreation. I think a lot of men (and some women) don’t want to accept that women are going to need some sort of compensation for putting their bodies through the harsh realities of pregnancy and labor.

A lot of men, especially the men here, like to scoff at how taxing pregnancy and labor are, and women are starting to see that their sacrifice is not only not seen as a sacrifice by a lot of men, but men also believe that women are obligated to do it. In the past this was mostly true. Today it’s not.

Interestingly enough, I believe that men being a provider and protector is more important in todays world, as that is men’s payment for a woman giving him a legacy. Women have a choice now.

As you said, the way most people define 50/50 isn’t true 50/50. Men here will argue that women have children for themselves. But if thats true, what does she need you for? Men are making themselves even more irrelevant and “worthless” than they already are. If she’s having the child for herself, and not for both of you, she might as well be a single mother. What are you actually doing for her? What are you bringing/giving to her? When you add everything up in 50/50, even under the best case scenario where the man is doing his part at home. The man does not have to deal with childbirth, so things are in fact, not equal. Is it men’s fault. No, that’s just biology. However, to be truly 50/50. Men needs to bring more to the table, either through more money, or doing more chores.

Hi_Iamlexi · 2023-05-09T15:10:44+00:00

The goal of a relationship shouldn’t be 50/50. The goal of a relationship is to build a partnership that gets you to 100% TOGETHER. That means sharing the overall labor required, physical, emotional, financial etc. it should be about what works best for you and your partner(s). My partner loves to do dishes so I rarely do them. I love to cook so I do that and he rarely does that. We both hate laundry so we do it together. Some weeks I have more energy so I do more to tend to us some weeks he has more energy so he does more. It’s about us working together to take care of us as a unit. The goal should be to build a functional partnership not divide household tasks down the middle.

SwimmingTheme3736 · 2023-05-09T12:31:40+00:00

I dont think a 50/50 split is right. I don’t think in a long term relationship trying to split everything is that easy and the work to make sure it’s evenly split sounds exhausting.

We pool out money resources and time, but there are things we have different strengths at and we utilise this.

I am much better at planning, so I tend to do more of that. I would have no clue where to start fitting a new bathroom or a new ceiling, things he has done recently.

I’m better at decorating, the last time he painted himself more than the room.

I do more day to day housework but he tends to do bedtimes with our son as he doesn’t see him in the mornings.

We share cooking and gardening.

We both work hard but will pick up the slack if the other can’t do their bits.

The key is communication and making sure no one feels they are being taken advantage of.

screechingfeminazi · 2023-05-09T15:55:17+00:00

I mean any relationship between two people who aren't clones of each other is going to be asymmetrical in some ways. The problem is that there's a long history of women's work being devalued.

Once I was staying with a friend who had a hobby farm, and was floored that her husband complained she was "leaving all the work to him" when she had to stop stacking firewood to breastfeed their child. He did half of what was left and then wanted to go inside and relax while she finished the job; didn't even occur to him to offer to take the baby with him.

This is an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing women are thinking of when we roll our eyes at 50/50; men who make a big deal of "splitting everything evenly" are often pretty selective about what goes into that calculation.

I don't think it's inevitable. We've made decent progress on the housework front - the guys in my social circle seem to more or less pull their weight.

Parenting seems like a tougher nut to crack. I'm coming around to the idea that there's a biological component there. But I do know a few fathers who are actually full parents to their kids.

JollyRoger66689 · 2023-05-09T13:29:11+00:00

In more than half of marriages the man is the breadwinner if not outright sole provider, I think if things were actually 50/50 we would hear women complaining about it not being fair even more

Sure-Vermicelli4369 · 2023-05-09T12:29:48+00:00

No, true equality will never be reached because women will constantly move the goalposts.

Preme2 · 2023-05-09T12:05:51+00:00

It’s mostly due to sexual desire. People makes posts all the time, but there was one recently this week. That’s the imbalance.

It doesn’t matter how hypergamous women want to be, there has to be someone for them to pair off with or get something similar to a relationship, usually a situationship. Men are willing to take on lesser women for sex. So it’s “successful” in a sense. If men were as picky as women, there would be no relationships or lesbian like relationships, disaster.

So in summary, a man and a woman could be as close to 50/50 as possible, virtually indistinguishable, but men are more horny and will take what they can get much quicker than a woman can.

0xdeeznuts · 2023-05-09T12:35:03+00:00

What 50/50 dude? As soon as war started in ukraine, the women fucked off and started sucking new dick in berlin and london, while the husbands were sent to the front line.

PenOrganic2956 · 2023-05-09T16:26:46+00:00

Idk... Don't really care what the societal norm is. I know the ratio that works for me and my partner.

Blondefairy25 · 2023-05-09T13:08:38+00:00

Life is never going to be 50/50 fair and square. Men and women (on average) have different strengths and weaknesses.

Safinated · 2023-05-09T14:12:50+00:00

Equitable relationships and domesticity are totally attainable by any and all genders. It’s not that difficult

StadChacy · 2023-05-09T15:21:25+00:00

What I hate that we’ve done as a society is disrupted the balance between the contributions of the genders such that is favors women, then we tell men to make up the difference.

By this I mean, we wouldn’t be having this conversation of women just stayed out of the workplace.

This imbalance, now that women both work and do household and child nurturing, was already accounted for when men were the sole providers. It was women who wanted to work, claiming that that arrangement was oppressive because it required the woman to financially depend on the man.

Well, first and foremost, the entire point of a relationship is dependence upon someone else for an aspect of your survival. Vulnerability is inherent in dependence. But I won’t go into that…

My issue is that if women unilaterally upset the balance in gender contributions by fulfilling the man’s role, then why is it incumbent upon the man to now offer more in order to rectify the imbalance in order to recreate the same balance that women deemed oppressive? If everyone on a ship has a job, but you decide you want to do everyone’s job, that’s YOUR decision so why should everyone else have to work 5 more shifts so you don’t feel like you’re overworked relative to everyone else?

Follow this rationale to understand my frustration…

-Men provided, women made the home =? Harmony

-Women said that was unfair, and started providing too (which lowered everyone’s salary btw)

-women and male feminists such as OP then tasked men with rectifying the imbalance that women single-handedly created…claiming that men don’t contribute anything

-because men now earn less because the labor force has doubled, it puts enormous pressure on men to be the sole provider. Most men can’t fulfill that role and it’s not even a matter of effort or competence…it’s an economic impracticality…hell, an impossibility.

-but figure this…Women say that men being the sole provider was oppressive, only for women to go out and earn their own money, then look for a man making so much more than her that he is effectively the sole provider….which I thought was oppressive…

-only difference now is that less men can fulfill that oppressive provider role because the average woman makes what the average man…as a result of women wanting equal pay…. Only for women to be mad when there’s not an abundance of men making more than them to date…which would be again, by their own calculus, oppressive even if they found that guy due to the financial power imbalance….

So now that we have all of this confusion that women created…we blame men and task men with compromising and working harder to fix it.

MAKE IT MAKE SENSE

AssOfTheSameOldMule · 2023-05-09T13:01:10+00:00

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! You solved it.

For a woman, being in a relationship with a man who is her equal in every way (looks, income, chore division, etc.) is a net negative, for more reasons than men seem to comprehend. For openers:

Women have an increased risk of contracting STIs; increased risk of suffering domestic violence and/or sexual assault by her partner; women go through pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum health issues, a permanently changed body, increased risk of osteoporosis in old age, and of course lost wages while on maternity leave. Mothers are usually the parent to miss work when their children are sick, too, which means more lost wages and having a harder time being taken seriously/promoted at work.

Women tend to be the ones to follow their partner’s career — relocating, switching to part-time or quitting altogether to pick up the slack at home while the man gets ahead, etc. It only takes one or two of these decisions to set her career back to such a degree that she’ll never get back on the same track as if she had just stayed single.

Even if the chores and bills are split 50/50, women usually perform more emotional labor in the relationship and managing the household: Making doctor and dentist appointments, staying on top of the kids about homework, hosting guests, planning holidays, buying the Christmas presents, etc.

Children also usually look to their moms as their primary parent, so even if the dad genuinely tries to split kid duties 50/50, oftentimes the kids make this extremely difficult on both parents (throwing tantrums, etc.) because they strongly prefer their mom. This means women are less able to enjoy whatever free time they do have, at least while the children are young.

Women face harsher criticism for gaining weight and losing their looks due to natural aging and the physical changes that follow childbirth. So women are under more pressure to diet, exercise, and get cosmetic procedures done (I’m not even necessarily talking about surgery; this could be expensive and irritating skincare regimens, laser treatments, dyeing their hair to cover grays, etc.). Sloppy “dad bods” are inexplicably a thing even though dads never get pregnant; in other words, moms are the ones who at least have an excuse for getting a little flabby, but there’s no widespread embrace of “mom bod”. Women’s options are to diet, exercise, and get painful and expensive cosmetic surgery.

If they split up, women have much less sexual and relationship desirability than men when re-entering the dating scene at an older age, especially if she has kids. Women’s lifestyle tends to decline after divorce while men’s tends to improve. If the children are still young, women will usually have the majority of custody until they’re older, which means struggling as a mostly-single parent for a while. Even if the dad pays full child support, the mom still has less free time and more everyday responsibilities, which means more stress and less time to take care of herself, date, have hobbies, travel, etc.

Women also tend to be blamed by society when marriages fail, regardless of the man’s contribution to the marital breakdown. So women are at an increased risk of being criticized or even ostracized by the people around her, when she’s already going through a difficult time. Women also face severe stigma and a very small dating pool when trying to date as a single mom. Meanwhile, men are widely admired for doing fun stuff with their kids every other weekend.

I’m sure I could think of more downsides if I weren’t trying to get ready for work at the moment, lol. All this is just off the top of my head.

So the answer to your question is yes. Women demand a man who is significantly better than them in some ways upfront, to offset some of these biological and social inequalities and risks.

We can’t have perfect equality in every way because of the social and biological differences between the sexes. So the closest we can get to actual “equality” is some degree of hypergamy. For a man to be worthwhile, he needs to bring something to the table that the woman desires and can’t obtain by herself. Being her equal is in no way enough!

januaryphilosopher · 2023-05-09T13:06:09+00:00

It'd be very hard and quite arbitrary for any couple to split everything 50/50. And you're right that in the case of pregnancy it's literally impossible. You can, however, split overall effort and contributions 50/50 quite easily, so both people aren't doing the same thing but being fair while still doing what they, as individuals, are good at.

gofigure62 · 2023-05-09T14:16:25+00:00

I don't think that 50/50 in a relationship is actually possible. However, people will have fair relationships if they chose partners that mutually made their lives easier, brighter, and made being with them a better option than doing life alone.

The problem is that women choose men that are worthless man babies that disproportionately burden them. Women create more work for themselves by failing to choose men that actually make their lives easier and don't create more unnecessarily work and stress for them on a daily basis. Women choose men who want to be served indefinitely. Women don't choose men who want a life partner to mutually share the burdens of life with.

Comfortable-Dare-307 · 2023-05-09T15:32:28+00:00

Except we can't be 50/50. Men work more outside the home and do harder jobs. Thus, men shouldn't have to do as much at home as women. If he's a coal miner. And she's an office worker. Do you really think he should "help" with the housework. If so, then you need to get a clue. Again, men do more work and harder work outside the home. And that's even true if you look at the same job. Men do better work, work harder, and are given more responsibility. I'm not saying men should do nothing in the home. But if you really want 50/50, then women would have to do more to catch up to what men do.

CP_137 · 2023-05-09T17:22:48+00:00

Fact is women already get more for doing less and steady feeding the persecution complex that the gender collectively has allows them to justify doing even less for even more. 50/50 for women is practically non existent

2abetterwhy · 2023-05-09T14:14:15+00:00

How about the fact that men run the risk of having their woman divorce them, as 80% of divorces are started by women? The same number being for household violence, where 80% of women are the aggressors? And again the same number goes for child custody being awarded to the mother. Just because a woman carries a kid for 9 months doesn't mean she should by default have custody of it if she is a horrible mother.

For household work, I'm not sure where you got that from (or which country you are from), but this is 2023 sweetheart, men do their part. And if we're being honest, the "relationship burden" is long gone from the 50/50 days (but not in favor of men).

bifewova234 · 2023-05-09T12:13:41+00:00

Plenty of beautiful women around the world want to marry a western man and bring their families in to the USA through chain migration. Thats bringing a lot to the table and it costs you not much.

Coolio_Street_Racer · 2023-05-09T15:47:55+00:00

There are plenty of men willing to do 60/40, 30/70, even 90/10(Male Effort:Female Effort).

The thing is, most women don't want those men...

If women truly prioritized and filtered men by the effort/commitment they put into the relationship. I seriously don't think most women have a problem finding a partner. Simps are a plenty.

It all boils down to the fact that women go after mostly the same men. Therefore those men have lots of options. Therefore they put less effort in.

No-Rough-7390 · 2023-05-09T14:01:12+00:00

The way women have been psyoped into thinking that keeping a home/living space relatively clean and organized is akin to slave labor always gives me a big fucking laugh.

The one SAH dad I know says that basically everything that needs done is finished by 10 AM on the daily or 11 on a slow day. Other than lunch and things of that nature, his day does not consist of much labor let alone hard labor.

revente · 2023-05-09T13:51:16+00:00

Or there are female reproductive costs that cannot be compensated for by male effort during pregnancy.

Many men don't give af about making babies. There are only later pressured by their women to conceive.

ffandyy · 2023-05-09T13:08:40+00:00

If you’re in a relationship where you are worrying I’d the split is 50/50 or 60/40 you probably don’t really love the person you are with.

Reptheft · 2023-05-09T18:34:50+00:00

Well the issue is you often can't get both.

If you already got your "hypergamous compensation" upfront in the form of a better partner, it's a bit odd to then expect that partner to split everything else 50/50 with you. Putting more into the relationship is what you do in exchange for dating someone of a higher quality. It's like how a sugar daddy knows he's footing every bill for his young attractive mate.

The demand for equal housework and the like wouldn't fall on deaf ears so often if the partnerships themselves were less lopsided.

Ok_Tomorrow_3963 · 2023-05-09T13:34:33+00:00

women are insisting on equality so, yes it would be fair

HazyMemory7 · 2023-05-09T16:14:53+00:00

I've only seen toxic femcel type women demand compensation for pregnancy.

Sane women understand that relationships are 100/100, not 50/50. You allocate expenses and housework based in income and time.

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WilliamWyattD · 2023-05-09T11:55:44+00:00

[permanently deleted]

_here_ok · 2023-05-09T13:47:02+00:00

That's assuming a relationship is like two machines with one singular goal. In which it would make sense to Split it however relationships aren't that.

A relationship should be built on appreciation and reciprocation. 50/50 in that instance would be impossible as you are putting your own values in what you find appreciative. In this case people shouldn't settle for what they can't appreciate.

If they do then they are setting themselves for unhappiness. If someone can't appreciate their partner then they should leave, if the partner doesn't feel appreciated they should leave as well.

This isn't to say a relationship should end automatically when there is unappreciation as it is possible to learn and appreciate things but it's best to reevaluate.

Mindless-Service8198 · 2023-05-09T16:19:51+00:00

I hate this question, because it implies that you're going to be having children. People try to justify this even when childfree.

MiddleZealousideal89 · 2023-05-09T16:33:27+00:00

I don't think money and Gucci bags would ever compensate for being pregnant and giving birth, that shit fucks your body up. So, from my perspective, not even the most highest-status man will ever be hot or rich enough to call it even Steven if I've ripped from V to A and had a shitty pregnancy (not all of them are, but some are just a nightmare).

That being said, I'm perfectly happy with knowing that my partner has my back and will pick up the slack if I'm not available or I forgot something. If I'm out at yoga or whatever, he'll feed the cat. I'm going to be away for 2 months visiting family, I know he won't let the place turn into a pigsty. He knows I'll throw out the trash or put the recycling out if he forgets to do it or was in a hurry. I don't think a relationship can ever be exactly 50/50, where both of you work the exact same amount of hours, make the exact same amount of money, and do the exact amount of chores the other person does, life happens and sometimes it will be 60/40, sometimes it will be 70/30. But, ideally, you should strive to make it as even as possible so that one person isn't carrying most of the domestic or financial burden forever. You should prop each other up and ease the burdens for each other, not keeping a scorecard that you'll try to use as a ''I get to do nothing'' cupon.

RocinanteCoffee · 2023-05-09T20:31:04+00:00

Perhaps male nature is such that they will never really, on average, be able to carry 50% of the domestic burden.

That's hogwash. You act like men are inept. They are more than capable of taking on half of the domestic responsibilities.

In a general way.

A lot of egalitarian couples discuss how they want to split chores, scheduling, household management, childrearing et cetera.

For example while I never want to be a spouse or mother, if in a 'living together' scenario there are some chores I hate and I will trade those for a higher number of other chores (if the other person cooks, for example, I will take on three chores that are more time consuming or grueling) and still feel that's fair. I have no gift for interior decoration, so I'll do trash, dusting, baseboards-scrubbing et cetera if they keep things displayed with some sort of taste and creatively plan furniture or whatever.

Most couples who feel things are fair and equal in their relationship don't keep spreadsheet-level specificity of it. But they both have active roles and put in similar efforts.

Plopolok · 2023-05-09T22:11:08+00:00

Let's say we socialize men and women to divide the overall burdens of a relationship 50/50

Then a lonely nerdy guy says "hey, I'm willing to do 60% - I love my job anyway, and I don't mind cooking, really the only thing missing in my life is a girlfriend that I could take care of". The girls say "Eww, so needy, what a doormat" and aren't interested. Chad says "my current girl hosts me and makes me sandwiches, what do you offer?". Girls say "I'm better than her, I'll host you and make you sandwiches, and also wash your clothes".

I_DRINK_ANARCHY · 2023-05-10T05:35:37+00:00

Maybe it's easy because we're not having kids, but my marriage is damn near 50/50 on everything. I'm a woman married to a man.

My husband and I are in the same field. I chose to become a foreman, so my dollar amount an hour can be more than his, but I get no OT with my company. He does get OT sometimes. So we have been making just about the same amount of money for years.

We divvy up our finances pretty equally. I cover the phone bill, he covers the cable bill, we pay for groceries 50/50, we put in equal amounts towards a joint account for the mortgage/water/electric/etc. He has a motorcycle payment that's entirely on him, my student loans are completely my responsibility. When one of us goes through a rough patch, the other picks up the slack. We take turns paying for stuff like restaurants, camping, etc.

We both take care of our home. We don't ask each other to say, do the dishes or vacuum, one of us just does it. We generally abide by "whoever cooks doesn't have to clean up". Home repairs are done pretty equally by the both of us. I can't do electric, so that's his domain. He doesn't have the patience or eye for spackling and painting, so that's all me.

We also support each other through all the non-tangible stuff. Hard times with family, feeling down because of something at work, just not feeling right...we're there for each other. There's no "man up" or "just deal with it" kind of bullshit, there's understanding and love. We both being happiness and joy to the relationship. We've got our flaws/quirks too, because we're human, but they're pretty insignificant compared to the positives.

If we WERE going to have kids, I have zero doubt he would take on his responsibilities as a father with gusto. He would NOT be the dad who calls watching his own child as babysitting, or would think of changing the diaper as "helping" me. We both had very involved fathers growing up, so not only would I have that expectation, he's grown up with it modeled for him. But I'm sterilized so kids aren't happening anyway, so that's all just an exercise based on a hypothetical.

begayallday · 2023-05-10T05:54:34+00:00

Some men view relationships very weirdly, seems like. My wife and I split domestic duties around 50/50 but it’s not like we need to sit down and fill out a spreadsheet to figure it out. We just both pitch in when things need to be done, and if one of us is exhausted or sick or not feeling well, the other will handle more chores than usual in order to give them a break. That’s just what you do when you care for someone. It seems like a lot of men here only think in terms of what they get out of it vs what they have to put in, and whether it’s an even exchange.

SecondEldenLord · 2023-05-10T08:11:52+00:00

There will never be a 50/50 relationship because women don't want that. And it depends what you mean by 50 50. You mean in finances? Cause in finances they dint need to be 50 50 or maybe you meant by effort in relationship? Cause the best 50 50 situation I can think of is the man provides and the woman cares and supports the man, the household and the children.

Title	Is aiming at 50/50 ever going to be fair to women?
Author	WilliamWyattD
Upvotes	9
Comments	312
Date	May 9, 2023 11:53 AM UTC (11 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/13cnhg7/is_aiming_at_5050_ever_going_to_be_fair_to_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-aiming-at-5050-ever-going-to-be-fair-to-women.1218768 https://theredarchive.com/post/1218768