Is much of how men experience the "Women are Wonderful" effect internally sparked, "societal," or both?

tonyghow · 2021-10-12T00:23:18+00:00

and the viewing of attractive women as Goddesses of divine judgement is probably something that happens in young male minds without any prompting.

Yes. “without any prompting” is the nature of male hormones.

Ask any man after post-nut-clarity if he thinks of women as goddesses, especially the one in front of him at that very moment.

Infammo · 2021-10-12T00:24:26+00:00

I have no idea if it's "without any prompting" because we don't really have a baseline to make that assessment. Even with scientific proof society vehemently denies it's favorable bias towards women so there's no deprograming our cultures immovably positive view of them.

I don't know where it all starts or feeds from. When I was three girls were made of sugar, spice, and everything nice and boys were snakes*, snails, and puppy dog tails. When I was a teenager girls were smart and mature and the boys were either jerks or losers. As an adult men are ugly, sexist, brutish, and lazy whereas women are attractive, hardworking, responsible, and intelligent.

My entire life it's been made abundantly clear to me that women were better than men and that we lived in a society that allegedly believed men were better than women. In my BP days I basically functioned on the self esteem that sort of outlook gives you. You'd need to essentially have a psychopathic dismissal of what other people thought to engage women on their level, so I started learning to do that.

I don't really think it's "innate." I think if boys weren't raised under the idea that they're just broken girls they wouldn't put women on a pedestal despite the stronger attraction that would inevitably develop.

wtknight · 2021-10-12T00:30:00+00:00

I think that it's mostly internal and it's driven by male hormones and scarcity mentality. Men who have options with many women are less likely to think that they are all wonderful, in my opinion.

GuitarsBack · 2021-10-12T00:09:57+00:00

After over a decade of soul-searching and pondering the question "what exactly turned me into the blue pill guy I was", I can now say with confidence: "No idea."

Classicjammer · 2021-10-12T01:33:00+00:00

I didn’t really have any female friends when I was younger and based much of my worldview about women based on movies I think, where the girl wants a good guy who treats her right and yada yada yada. It also slipped my mind that a lot of those movies that me guy was rich and conventionally handsome. But anyways. I had a crush in high school that I was scared to death to talk to. I idealized her in crazy ways. Idk if it was true or not but one day I heard she had took some guy into the freezer at her work (likely a coworker) and had sex with him in there, and I know she wasn’t in a relationship. For me, I had to leave class and go to the bathroom and breath cause I had idealized her so much to be basically an angel and couldn’t fathom her doing something like that.

Needless to say I was naive as hell in high school and learning the truth about how many women operate especially these days was tough for me to understand. I hate that I was so naive. I based a lot of my views too on how women in my family were too. I had no idea 50% of marriages ended in divorce and people grew up in bad homes and stuff. All my friends didn’t have perfect families that I stayed over at but their parents were together, except for one for a little while cause the dad had a drinking problem. I was just incredibly naive about how the world was and how women can be. Not excusing how men can be either but I always thought that women instinctively were the better and more fairer sex. Had no idea they’d message some hot guy on tinder who’s 6 ft or taller and have sex with him the same night or hook up with some dude at a random party just for fun. I always thought women wanted more than that.

Don’t worry guys this was 10-15 years ago now, I’ve definitely learned. But it was crazy figuring it all out.

AnnoxisTenebraerum · 2021-10-12T01:56:45+00:00

I think it's entirely environmental/social. Starts with kids spending the majority of their young childhoods with their mother...who to a dependent and still developing mind in a body that's 2 ft tall, Mom may as well be a "goddess of judgment".

Then they get sent to school, which regardless of being public or private, the majority of teachers are women. So yet again they're surrounded by "goddesses of judgment" but also "goddesses of knowledge".

If they're sent to daycare or have babysitters for after school? Yup, once more it's almost entirely female jobs.

The only difference between boys and girls is that girls tend to mature a little quicker and since we're female ourselves Mom/teachers/babysitters aren't viewed as some magical "Other". They're just bigger versions of us with larger tits, and not generally worth pedestalizing.

This kinda goes back to the other thread about seeing different people as inferior to you, except it's the opposite.

fraktalMaus · 2021-10-12T00:58:08+00:00

The man who did the study that coined the term „women are wonderful“ has a couple ideas that will surprise no one. The first was that through life experience people come to see women as nurturers. The other was that women are relatively safe figures in that they commit less violent crime.

scarcelyfalse · 2021-10-12T00:23:30+00:00

I think there’s a couple factors. I think generally speaking women are more wholesome. When I look at my gfs phone I see nothing but memes and animal pictures. My phone on the other hand she has commented is very dark. Lots of depressing memes, pictures of me obsessing over my sparse facial hair or receding hairline, things that I’ve seen on tiktok that depressed me but for some reason I felt compelled to screenshot it to look at it later in an attempt to figure out why it depressed me.

I noticed that most violent crimes are committed by men and when a woman is arrested it’s often something non violent like drugs, an act of passion or reactionary abuse, or she was an accessory to a mans criminal activity.

Now here is where my opinion might be kind of awful, I think that women are able to be "wonderful" for two reasons.

I think society does in fact oppress women, so they simply don’t have the opportunities to act out.

And also I think men are prone to the anxiety of and insecurity that drives violence and misery.

A woman’s social and sexual needs are generally met in western society, they have no fear of not being good enough, they may be self conscious on a personal level but collectively women don’t have to worry because their role is a passive one, and even when they’re in a situation where they’re more proactive they have the comfort of knowing that the odds are in their favor.

As a result they are able to live life more leisurely without the constrains of any unobtainable expectations of them

cloudydays84 · 2021-10-12T01:23:26+00:00

I think there's a natural inclination towards the idea and it makes sense biologically speaking.

If we go full lizard brain from a man's perspective a woman is generally someone weaker than him, softer than him, smaller than him, less aggressive/assertive, etc. With all this at the very least, he will assume that she isn't a threat to him (regardless of whether it is true or not).

Having said that I think a large portion of it is socialized, and it's likely motivated by that natural inclination and distinction but is definitely turned up way higher through social convention.

And it's done in a bunch of different ways that aren't exactly overt so it's not like it's always intentional. For example, one part is the expectations that are placed on women make the "WAW" self-fulfilling/perpetual, we as a society value women for xyz, so in turn many women seeking value and fulfillment from society are xyz.

NockerJoe · 2021-10-12T00:27:46+00:00

I think an important distinction is that you can go to a lot of different civilizations and see "Dude wins over a lady" or "Dude fails to win over a lady and it fucks him up" as common narratives across basically the whole world an any time period. You see this in Europe, Africa, Asia, the Americas, basically anywhere you care to look. This is true even for places where the writers are so far removed from each other or so culturally isolated from elsewhere that they couldn't possibly have heard many of the other stories like this.

You also, from time to time, see "female approval" as a proxy for broader social approval. I believe in Nigerian folklore there's a story about two men trying to win over a woman, one with modern foreign music and one with traditional music and she picks the latter, and this is obviously meant to signify that traditional culture is superior and that her choice reinforces a social norm being challenged. This is a fairly common thread as well in folklore where some traditional thing is good and some foreign thing is good, or some behavior is bad or good and at the end the man who does the good thing gets the girl in the end.

Female approval, or disapproval, is very obviously a social tool most societies figure out, and fairly quickly. Male approval isn't really used as a proxy in the same way and the reverse isn't really true in my experience, at least to the same degree.

manfrom-nantucket · 2021-10-12T02:17:55+00:00

It is entirely forced by society. If it wasn't a woman who slapped a man would be picking her teeth off the floor.

superlurkage · 2021-10-12T00:47:46+00:00

“Women are wonderful” basically means “no one is physically or emotionally afraid of women”

groupme_throwaway · 2021-10-12T00:23:02+00:00

It's not even society, most of the indoctrination about women being wonderful comes from their mothers and their grade school teachers because 90% of the time they're the ones taking care of children. The men in society have no problem reinforcing that view most of the time, because they were also taught that.

edit: not to say that there aren't certain teachers mothers who are exceptional, but you end up indoctrinated the view that ALL of them are wonderful for the simple reason that one day you showed up uninvited, and they volunteered like a selfless angel to raise you and teach you.

LePengwino · 2021-10-12T00:21:10+00:00

Maybe it's a demographic thing. But clearly these guys either forget they were exposed to or were never exposed to girls who were not so wonderful.

On the other hand, ime as a guy, women have been kinder/sweeter than guys on average, so...I don't know, really.

gofigure62 · 2021-10-12T00:37:03+00:00

Men probably have that ideation towards women because women were their care givers at a yoing age.

If all the women you meet as a young child feed you, protect you, entertain you, encourage you, and comfort you, then you'd see them as "magical" beings because all women have only comforted you and provided you good things. It also doesn't help that pretending to be "okay" is the cultural norm for most societies. So children may not be able to tell if a woman is just "holding it together" for her children or the children around her. Also in most cultures there is a level of servitude towards the boys in the family, so sisters, aunts, and other family members will be more mindful and accommodating towards him.

A lack of positive experiences with women from a young age, probably makes some men more rational in the belief that women are just human.

Also mothers are gods to children because mothers make them exist and typically provide all of their life needs. Motherhood is literally the definition of being a god.

TheJim66 · 2021-10-12T01:09:47+00:00

Both. Men naturally pedestalize the women they fall for (same way women think the men they fall for are super competent , invulnerable robots) AND society tries very hard to paint women as wonderful, moral and in need of protection.

banalchenal · 2021-10-12T00:51:36+00:00

when i see people talking about WAW it's complaining that women are associated with positive traits like empathy, gentleness, nurturing, patience... and i'd say they're mostly right. women ARE the less violent, less competitive sex. look at volunteers down at the orphanage or cat shelter. who's in the "caring" professions? which sex is committing just about all of the violent crime in the world? there doesn't need to be some conspiratorial reason that people view women as more feminine. it could just be reality.

PMmeareasontolive · 2021-10-12T02:48:54+00:00

There may be grains of biological origin in it but then the hype train gets ahold of it and defines what men and women should be (hint; it's distinctly different for each), or face failure, censure and being ostracized. You can analyze the state of a society by examining its myths; its popular culture. What a man and woman is is on the big screen, in ads or in books. Advertisers believe that the public is completely programmable. You can say you are immune to propaganda but I'm not sure to what extent you can truly extricate yourself.

Lateralanouncer · 2021-10-12T02:58:12+00:00

Maybe we think woman are nurturing like our mothers.

alphastarfox13 · 2021-10-12T07:14:22+00:00

Mine came about from seeing other boys from pre school onwards act like dirty annoying little shits, while girls seemed to be nice and reserved and clean. This view changed as I lost my innocence tho.

I remember this one girl in third grade who would make mazes for people, she was so nice and seemed angelic. She was baseline for me to have this women is wonderful view. Years later I ran into her in a party and she was high off her mind on coke or some drug. That was a big juxtaposition.

lulll · 2021-10-12T14:10:17+00:00

women are wonderful is an extension of the halo effect. men find most women somewhat attractive and we project bullshit onto people we find attractive. women are the exact opposite, they find most men unattractive and treat them like irrelevant shit and assume the worst. women are pretty much always team woman so theres no point arguing if the women are wonderful thing affects them

when the woman is ugly its a different story. you never see big news stories about some missing fat ugly woman. its always some pretty girl.

LMM-GT02 · 2021-10-12T19:44:40+00:00

I experience the “women are selfish conniving harpies that only get their way with soft words, showing skin, and deference towards them” far more.

Painfulmenstruation · 2021-10-12T22:11:55+00:00

Men experience “women are wonderful” because men have better experiences with women relative to their experiences with men.

Women are kinder, more compassionate, empathetic and we tend to be the ones who take care of men emotionally and otherwise.

Men like us better because we do more for them than other men do.

greenjoe10 · 2021-10-13T13:45:35+00:00

I've met a lot of shit women, but for me it was just always obviously how much shittier men could be. So whether it is unprompted or not, what I've seen essentially worked out to be "women are the lesser of two evil".

JALopo1 · 2021-10-12T00:41:41+00:00

Modern society has robbed most men of the opportunity to gain validation of their masculinity in any other way than through sexual exploits. The west is relatively safe there aren't many opportunities to face danger and prove your courage etc. So the focus men have on female validation probably isnt naturally this strong.

Gabrielvrape · 2021-10-12T00:25:03+00:00

It's societal buts slowly starting to get washed away as more men become re pulled and understand how things truly work, and how women really are. The internet freed men.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-10-12T00:50:03+00:00

The WAW effect is mostly a SIMPtom of male attraction mixed with a little bit of the Halo Effect.

Das all.

Ohyarlysmiles · 2021-10-12T01:23:31+00:00

but in my observation, it seems a lot of men's "rose-colored glasses" about femaleness isn't "forced upon him by society."

Your observation as a member conditioned by society taking place within society of another member of society who has also been conditioned by society that somehow this effect isn't 'forced upon them by society.'

...

LOL btw.

Flightlessbirbz · 2021-10-12T02:18:18+00:00

It’s partly an over-generalization of the reality that women tend to be nicer, more caring, and less violent and threatening than men, on average. But there is an element of benevolent sexism there. Men often seem incapable or unwilling to see women as human beings with shades of gray and differences between them and either put them on a pedestal or decide they’re all evil from one bad experience. Or put some women in the angel category and others in the evil category with no in between (Madonna/whore complex). Fact is women are just as different at complex as men, we’re just less likely to kill you.

IcarusKiki · 2021-10-12T06:28:32+00:00

its not “women are wonderful”. its “women are harmless compared to men”. People less wary of women not bc they believe women are morally superior but bc they are less likely to be a serious threat.

poppy_blu · 2021-10-12T00:41:06+00:00

I've heard some men argue that WAW is mostly societal, but in my observation, it seems a lot of men's "rose-colored glasses" about femaleness isn't "forced upon him by society."

It depends on what group of women we are talking about.

We just had a real time demonstration of missing white women syndrome in Gabby Petito. The case had international attention and a billion media hits. She even had a mega thread on PPD and no one hates attractive young white women more than PPD.

Do you know who Shanice Young is? Yeah neither does anyone else. How about Belkis Lopez? No?

The reality is that “women are wonderful” is actually “young, attractive, thin, straight, white middle class women who men of all ages want to fuck who do not challenge society’s definitions of femininity are wonderful.”

Black and Hispanic women are not regarded as wonderful. Fat women are not regarded as wonderful. Poor single mothers are not regarded as wonderful. Lesbian and trans women are not regarded as wonderful. Old women are not regarded as wonderful. Women who challenge men in man dominated spaces like the military (and apparently programmer jobs) are not regarded as wonderful.

“Wonderful” means women men pedestalize because they want to fuck them. Because they represent the platinum vagina trophy of that tells the world he’s a top man.

The other reality is that there’s a huge overlap between men who spend their time whining online about WaW and men who come from cultures that teach men that women are their inferior property, and that’s not a coincidence. When you’re used to privilege in your home country, equality in your western adopted home seems like oppression. And yeah I said it.

boomershack · 2021-10-12T02:25:45+00:00

We came out of vaginas guys...

unless your c-section gang but still, a womb

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-10-12T00:15:20+00:00

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Ireallymissdelores · 2021-10-12T01:15:20+00:00

“Young male minds” aren’t complex organisms just as young female minds aren’t. The weight of approval based on random and insubstantial things such as the opinions of others inevitably fade.

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2021-10-12T02:03:48+00:00

Well logically who is the first person to take care of you , soothed you when in distress? Who are mainly the people that teach you in pre -k , and the early school years, who are mainly the people that cook you your food ,help you get your bath , clothes on ,or picked out , school supplies together?
Not saying that there's not exceptions to this rule ,but mainly women take on these roles even if they are working women. The men are usually known as coming in being an authoritative figure such as a Principle ,Coach, or Dad, the person who pushed you to be better , stronger , independent , follow the rules and the authoritarian if you misbehaved.

Believe society roles have influenced alot .

ToughAnswers · 2021-10-12T02:28:34+00:00

I've heard some men argue that WAW is mostly societal, but in my observation, it seems a lot of men's "rose-colored glasses" about femaleness isn't "forced upon him by society."

It's thirst. As a guy it must be overcome to make it in this world

AtaCome7821 · 2021-10-12T04:53:35+00:00

Disagree. Wanting someone's approval has nothing to do with what you think of that person, that claim is ludicrous lol.

I've never thought women were wonderful, I thought my mom and aunts were, why because those are the people who never did me wrong and always were on my side. It's experiences with people that shape someone's view of others, not society.

The WAW is a thing only to a collective of men, not individual men and so when men think "wonderful woman" they think of the women they most likely know and those are their wives, mothers and sisters and since those are generally wonderful, women as a whole are wonderful. Just wait until gen z becomes the generation in charge, I'm sure that by then this effect won't exist.

usimariT · 2021-10-12T05:54:10+00:00

100% societal and systemic (including prevalence in media)

Anyone who has had enough contact to and observation of a sufficient sample pool of both genders while growing up knows early on that there is no reality-based ground for any projection of a "wonderful" halo on either side.

Rosifer433d · 2021-10-12T05:57:17+00:00

What I agree on is that the guy who wrote :

In the male mind, winning the approval of pretty women can be a thing powerful to a degree many women simply never understand, and the viewing of attractive women as Goddesses of divine judgement is probably something that happens in young male minds without any prompting.

Is mentally ill, and he doesn't speak for everyone, only for those like him. Having an attractive girlfriend didn't pay off my bills. Having ONS with hot women didn't pay off my house. Sex is enjoyable but it's not going to be the death of me if for some reason I never have it again.

There are far more important things in life than having a pretty girlfriend, or having a girlfriend at all.

These kids put all of their self-worth on getting a pretty girlfriend, thinking all that matters in life is having someone who is more attractive than themselves. Why? Because they have extremely low self-esteem and they need something to help them feel better about themselves, and they think it's having a pretty woman as a girlfriend or as an ONS what will solve their problems.

And there's lots and lots of women who are beautiful and are as shitty as the red pillers and black pillers are, as human beings. I dated a woman back in college who was the splitting image of Alessandra Ambrosio, and she was so vain that she would only talk to people she considered to be attractive, even if other women would start a conversation with her; she would just ignore those women.

Is that what you want to have as a girlfriend?

A lot of men are fucking dumb and lack life experience as you can see on PPD. All this nonsense about society telling them women are wonderful and how society told these poor, naive young men how hot women didn't care about looks.

They don't. But they do. They have requirements in a man's looks before they fuck him, but those 'demands' in what a man oughta look before they fuck him are a lot lower than they think, but since the average red piller and black piller is in the bottom 20% of men, he's not going to be able to sleep with an average woman let alone with a woman who is in the top 1% in the United States of Obesity.

They should try their luck with women in Brazil, Spain, Italy, France, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany etc. There are a lot more women there who are hot, which should increase their chances of getting a pretty girlfriend, but they need to keep their dumb mouths shut or they will kill off any chance they have of getting together with those women.

Individual-March8163 · 2021-10-12T05:58:15+00:00

I think people should read the wiki about the "women are wonderful" effect before talking about it. It doesn't seem many have.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect

No it's not driven mainly due to male hormones, it's far more pronounced in women than men:

"This research found that while both women and men have more favorable views of women, women's in-group biases were 4.5 times stronger[5] than those of men. And only women (not men) showed cognitive balance among in-group bias, identity, and self-esteem, revealing that men lack a mechanism that bolsters automatic preference for their own gender.[5]"

I think this leads to a gender bias in moral typecasting: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9tixOJSi0

LowValueMail · 2021-10-12T07:02:30+00:00

I think there's two things going on here.

The first is a cultural narrative about womanhood with which we're all raised and that we thus internalize. I hesitate to call this a 'women are wonderful' narrative, it's more complicated than that, but it does dehumanize women and turn them into objects to be treasured, protected, owned. It's an inherently patriarchal narrative.

The second thing is a fixation with female approval had by straight men on account of their sexual interest in women. This is still influenced by culture (our habit of judging men on their sexual success for example) but can also be said to be something internal.

RottingVillain666 · 2021-10-12T07:33:50+00:00

No not really. I don’t really feel the need for approval by anyone in general. Im way above that bullshit. She/he either like me or nada, will find someone else that i feel attracted to. We are nearly 8 bilion people, so i can date alot of people

JacobMoogberg69 · 2021-10-12T07:43:30+00:00

I agree to the degree that this is how men are brainwashed to think. The interesting thing is that women feel utterly uncomfortable being put in such a goddess role and they actively despise "men" who treat them like this. Hence why nice guys are constantly shat on by women. It's not the woman's fault that her biology doesn't allow her to mate with a male who is below her or more importantly who considers himself below her.

What's closer to reality is that when a guy locks eyes with a woman and she stares back at him and then he makes his way over to talk to her, she is thinking "oh god, oh god, he is coming over, oh god don't let me screw this one up".

WilliamWyattD · 2021-10-12T09:21:56+00:00

I think you are conflating two ideas that do interact but are ultimately discrete.

There is the power of female judgment over men, including men's respect for the accuracy of that judgment.

And there is feeling that women are better than men in some dimensions, particularly that their sexuality is moral and impacted by the higher emotions such as kindness, compassion and such.

ffandyy · 2021-10-12T10:15:46+00:00

I’m not even sure what it is to be honest

NameGiver0 · 2021-10-12T14:10:58+00:00

Here’s the study OP failed to link to: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect

heyitsjeape · 2021-10-12T18:23:49+00:00

Just because someone is physically attractive, it doesn’t mean there is anything special about them otherwise.

IOportA · 2021-10-12T18:32:34+00:00

it comes early in life, from listening to your mother.

maybe someday, mothers will tell their sons that bitches ain't shit, and then chivalry will finally die.

Title	Is much of how men experience the "Women are Wonderful" effect internally sparked, "societal," or both?
Author	GridReXX
Upvotes	26
Comments	245
Date	October 12, 2021 12:06 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/q69ev3/is_much_of_how_men_experience_the_women_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-much-of-how-men-experience-the-women-are.1080014 https://theredarchive.com/post/1080014