Men's worth should NOT be based on women's attraction

tired_hillbilly · 2022-05-12T16:48:00+00:00

Discussions of "worth" never really made sense to me, for a bunch of different reasons.

First, what even are we talking about? What is "worth"? Self-esteem? Reputation? Objective measures of success like wealth or awards/status? It seems like it's all of these things but also none of them.

Second, specifically about "Are you a positive influence to your community"; this isn't so simple either. It's a two-way street, and a lot of people in the modern world get nothing in return. Our communities are so atomized and individualistic, there's minimal appreciation sent your way even if you are a positive influence. I think we all want to help, but nobody wants to be a martyr for a system that won't appreciate it.

Hoopy223 · 2022-05-12T18:19:32+00:00

Too many people beat themselves up over shit that doesn’t matter.

I saw a documentary on end-of-life interviews and the people who were 105 were saying a lot of the same things we talk about now.

Is my dress fashionable. I need to bust ass and make more money. Impressing girls/guys.

Meanwhile the things they say actually matter are friends, family, spirituality. Stuff that can’t be sold online and delivered by Amazon via same day shipping.

bd31 · 2022-05-12T18:57:47+00:00

The hardest lesson to learn is that you have nothing to prove.

KekeSmall · 2022-05-12T17:05:41+00:00

I think everyone men and women should collectively stop judging each other based on our ability to “get” someone of the opposite sex. The constant pressure will get to you.

PerfluorooctaneS · 2022-05-12T20:29:30+00:00

Has to be one of the first times a post in this community has made me feel remotely better about anything in life - truly appreciate it

Prize-Thought-4205 · 2022-05-12T18:00:31+00:00

This is actually the main reason “incels”‘exist, both societies, men & women’s heavy expectations they put on men to be as sexually successful as possible to determine qualify & how valuable they are to themselves or society… and also the reason the word “incel” exist in the first place, so we can punish men not fulfilling their role in the patriarchy. Ironically in modern day you see feminist use incel as an insult a lot more, just one of countless ways they reinforce the patriarchy & show that all true feminist died a long time ago.

OldSimpsonsisbetter · 2022-05-13T01:56:27+00:00

The criteria which you measure your worth changes as you get older.

From children up to 16/17, it's how popular you are.

From 17/18 up to mid-late 20's, it's how many women can you sleep with. From late 20's onwards, it's how much money you make and what your career is like.

Then when you're in 40's/50's and older, it becomes more focused on if you have kids, what your grandkids are like.

The ages might change slightly, but generally speaking this is how you measure your worth. It's quite ironic that once men reach their mid 30's (their supposed sexual market peak), men have stopped caring about measuring their worth based on the number of women they sleep with. Their priorities have largely changed by that age.

eyewave · 2022-05-13T07:05:38+00:00

that + let's not forget some "red-pilled" men receive attention from women and just choose to dismiss it because they're done with women's antics.

I'm currently in a relationship where I'm seeing my gf every week-end or so, but I sometimes find it exhausting to spare time or attention for her, so I can imagine how hard it would be for me to actually live with someone.

I really love to have time for myself and develop skills in hobbies and such. Conversely, women seem to only care about organizing and catering to their social circle (parties, get-togethers, celebrations, etc.)... Which for a misanthrope person like me makes me roll my eyes all the time lol.

EulenWatcher · 2022-05-12T16:56:14+00:00

I guess this kind of belief is pretty common, people want to believe in a fair world afterall.

There are two points for this discussion I'd like to make without actually trying to change your view.

The first one is that if someone struggles to find a partner, there's a reason for it. Whether it's their appearance, a lack of social skills, being on a spectrum, having mental issues or something else. Some of the issues can be solved or improved. Some cannot be and a person has to learn to live with them.

The second is that when people struggle to connect with others, they feel inadequate. Lots blame themselves or other people, accepting it can be pretty hard especially when the belief in a fair world is so common and widespread and others keep reinforcing it. It's worse for people who struggle due to a lack of social skills, spectrum or mental issues, because this struggle makes their issues harder and vice versa. I'm not sure your point would help them tbh, as a big part of it isn't conscious.

mydikishomofobik · 2022-05-12T23:25:10+00:00

Yep. Men can be total losers in terms of financial/economic status and total scum in terms of treating people like garbage (abuse, bullying, using the women they date and other people), but still get lots of women.

If I wanted to give examples I'd be writing a phonebook. But there's Ted Bundy; John Wayne Gacy; a deformed face guy in Canada who was on welfare with a wife, kids, a mistress on the side convicted of raping a 12 or 13 y.o. girl and suspected of killing another who he lured to a fake job by pretending to be a cop or secret fed agent; a YouTuber/cult leader/former gay pornstar and male prostitute who had a harem of women who he allegedly beat, forced to perform unwanted sex acts, and took all their student loans or whatever money they had; etc. to infinity.

And, on the flipside, a fairly decent guy can be perennially single.

Of course if a "nice guy" is a millionaire gold medalist, or pro sports MVP he's going to get pussy.

But let's not pretend there aren't loser assholes fucking lots of women while decent guys get nothing.

Personally I don't GAF. Not my problem. I'm not in jail or prison like that YT/gay pornstar/cult clown, the deformed face rapist, or other idiots like that. Nor am I getting beat on, having all my money taken, forced to perform unwanted sex acts, becoming a single mother, etc. like the women who choose those loser asshole pieces of shit.

Guitar-Master9891 · 2022-05-12T16:38:19+00:00

You stole this from one of my post right?

I couldn't agree more.

Snowbattt · 2022-05-13T10:57:27+00:00

This is a wholesome thread.

ruboyuri · 2022-05-12T17:31:21+00:00

People are only concerned with worth when they want something in return for it

Thus, men are often concerned with their worth because they want to trade it for sex.

Who are we to say whether this is good or bad? Are women wrong in trading their bodies and looksworth in for relationships and marriage ?

I personally have no problem with transactionalism as long as you don’t deny it, don’t hurt anyone doing it, and don’t whine about it

ohheyhi99 · 2022-05-12T16:47:28+00:00

An important chunk of context is being left out of the "bad personality" bit.

If I go up to a random stranger on the street and scream at them about how men don't like me they, not knowing anything else about me, would rightfully assume that men probably don't like me because I'm a crazy bitch. Is "plenty of crazy bitches have boyfriends" going to cross their mind? Maybe not because they are having a visceral reaction to an aggressive stranger who just walked up to them and started to scream.

That is the equivalent of how certain individuals got the "single because of bad personality" label, but playing out online instead of the street. People really like to act as if the internet is a separate plane of existence where the basic rules and norms of human social interaction do not apply. Yeah well it isn't.

fiveoneandahalf · 2022-05-13T14:45:15+00:00

i don’t think any woman gives a fuck about this. it’s your “bros” who put those expectations on you. y’all just assume we give a fuck. what makes you so unattractive, is crying and complaining about getting no women. be a better, healthier person and women might be more likely to give you a chance. ☺️

baresquad · 2022-05-12T16:47:14+00:00

Most of those ideas come from dudes which lead me to think we feign for validation far more than a lot of us think do

I disagree with the whole rational thing. You can never have 100% understanding of somebody’s actions but even if you could, the point would still stand. So many men hinge their worth on being accepted by women that aren’t even looking at them

Even if people always chose what’s good or worthy, if they’re not attracted to you, that’s good and worthy to them, your opinion doesn’t matter, so why would you revolve your existence around that?

I’m happily single 4 years now. I really can’t fathom placing my worth on a relationship, they’re worth it with the right person but the way everybody thinks they’re this magical thing with every single person is kinda delusional

hari_hbp · 2022-05-12T16:48:57+00:00

Not his overall worth. But certainly, the number of women attracted to a guy and their quality would certainly show how attractive the guy is, dont you think?

Every person who has had consensual sex, has to be some way, shape or form, attractive (which is subjective). If a guy has never had sex, especially when he has always wanted to, isn't it logical to assume that he might be either doing something wrong or has some kind of problem?

Bekiala · 2022-05-12T18:55:08+00:00

"The one thing that this assumes is that women's attraction is purely, 100% rational."

I am a woman and can attest that my attraction to a man is not rational nor should it be seen as even a compliment. Some of us are screwed up . . . .hmmm . . . probably most of us are screwed up.

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-05-12T16:55:54+00:00

Being single is completely normal and honestly fun. However men here act like being single or not getting sex is an awful tragic thing because they do base their worth on what women think of them.

However if a man has good friendships, good relationships with family members, is a positive influence on his community, and is comfortable in his own skin, chances are he isn't single or is so by choice and is not here complaining.

Alfalfa2-Throwaway · 2022-05-12T17:16:58+00:00

If you're not getting laid there must be something wrong with you;
If you're single you must be a social retard autist and live in a basement;
If you're single you probably haven't taken showers in a month and are a hopeless loser;
If you're single your personality is shit;

I agree that this is far too general to apply to the everyone unlucky in love and sex and I do not believe that people's self-worth should be based on their relationship status. But we're talking about this specific group/sub.

This sub where every.single.day. We have posts from men who strike out and then rage about how women are all shallow and delusional and we're too busy fucking male models to look at nice normal guys and won't we all be sorry when we're withered and aged and our ovaries are dried up at 30 and no man wants us and then we'll be sorry and it will be too late because we'll be worthless and you'll all be in your 40s dating instagram models.

Also it's scientifically proven that women are (dumber/weaker/basically chimpanzees) - insert link to one crappy, tiny, bias and not in any way accurate study from the web - so why won't these sluts fuck me?

Aaaand us women on here, many of whom are in relationships with nice, normal, non-male model guys will tell you that it's a pretty shitty attitude to have and maybe dial back the entitlement and aggression a little if you want to have more luck with women - only to be called liars.

John_Oakman · 2022-05-12T19:37:06+00:00

This would make sense if it weren't for that modern cultures have done a thorough job in dismantling every other source of sense of worth and social validation due to an obsession in fighting against the exploitation of the masses. While it's true that all those forms have been used (and still are) as tools of oppression and exploitation, they were also the glue that held society together. For all the dismantling there has not been any meaningful replacements, thus the seemingly obsession with hedonism and self interest.

People are shamed for being patriotic, they're mocked for being hard workers, they're looked down on for stepping in to help the less fortunate. Is it really a wonder why people have problem figuring out their self worth in anything other than being selfish and pretending said selfishness is actually some sort of virtue?

Boxisteph · 2022-05-12T20:59:41+00:00

It's a big homosocial male problem. Worrying about how other men perceive them based off of them achieving things they think those other men consider manly.

MeanCow6 · 2022-05-13T01:43:35+00:00

If you're not getting laid there must be something wrong with you;

If you're single you must be a social retard autist and live in a basement;

If you're single you probably haven't taken showers in a month and are a hopeless loser;

If you're single yor personality is shit

Your summary is incomplete. Here's the entire theory:

If you're a man who is single and not getting laid,

and you blame women for this and believe women should change and/or somehow be forced to have sex with you,

THEN there's something wrong with you, you're a hopeless loser, & your personality is shit.

briiiana1122 · 2022-05-12T18:37:04+00:00

You are confusing “if you are single” with “if you whine and complain endlessly about being single”. And ya, no one should base their worth on other people. That’s a terrible idea.

Super-Peoplez-S0Lt · 2022-05-12T22:25:19+00:00

Anyone who base their worth entirely off of being seen as conventionally attractive has very low self-esteem and needs some serious therapy.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-05-13T11:00:04+00:00

This is very ironic because women find men who own their shit, like themselves and need zero external approval extremely sexy. Every bad boy in every movie is someone who doesn't fit in, who flaunts the social rules and does whatever he thinks is right. These type of men don't NEED women to feel okay with themselves.

But on average men are so desperate for approval, to be liked and to be accepted, that they don't really even approach women because they find them attractive. It's because in their mind sex with an attractive woman is the ultimate validation that they are not a weird subhuman scum. There is not actual enjoyment of the other person's company because women are seen as mere dispensers of approval and validation, which puts them in an awkward position of power which they resent.

This is so sad and at the same time absolutely detrimental to getting actual sexual interest from women. Anyone who puts their self worth the responsibility of other people deserves to be treated like shit (and they usually are). So it has nothing to do with women and everything to do with men who crave approval so badly. Get over your fear of disapproval and ideally over your need for approval to begin with and your success with women will skyrocket.

Alfalfa2-Throwaway · 2022-05-12T17:04:08+00:00

Women came to this exact same conclusion about their self-worth and men years ago and yet it's mens belief that women base our self-worth on them and thus should be desperate for attention and therefore by extension if we poor desperate creatures rebuff men then there must be something wrong with you as men...oh my...you're your own worst problems it seems....

64squarepoet · 2022-05-12T17:38:33+00:00

Here's the Marxist idea: nobody should have their worth depend on any social thing, because these phenomena are subject to social forces. So your money, attractiveness, status are all silly social constructs anyway.

However just because you are not perceived as attractive doesn't mean you aren't wonderful in your own special way, as long as you don't harm others or fall into toxicity.

FireGodGoesSeeknFire · 2022-05-12T20:46:25+00:00

This is how we are ”designed."

Women are the choosers and they are driven to choose men who will produce healthy successful children. Not being chosen means that your qualities are not ones she instinctively feels would help her children succeed.

One woman could be mistaken sure. Maybe even a whole subset, but all? It's not likely. More likely is that in fact your qualities would not be desirable in the next generation.

Catherine772023 · 2022-05-13T09:13:15+00:00

I think ppl encouraging women to choose better men should help women do that.

Some women wrote they want to stop choosing bad men and learn how to find better men and she got a sexist response instead of support.

zonadedesconforto · 2022-05-12T19:12:57+00:00

Setting a men’s social worth based on his sexual prowess is 100% patriarchal ideology.

sarkington · 2022-05-12T16:36:10+00:00

But sex

just_a_place · 2022-05-12T19:22:42+00:00

Dude, who the hell is telling you these things?

NOBODY argues that a man's worth is based on women's opinions. That sounds like it's all in your head. Is there a mad hatter, a bunny rabbit, and a little girl in the table there with you when you discuss these things?

if you're single you have a bad personality

Who says this?

Come to reality bro, I swear it doesn't suck as bad as your 3 guests at the forest tea party make it out to be.

dottywine · 2022-05-12T21:34:35+00:00

Men in these forums definitely need to focus on their own mental health and self-love.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-05-13T02:34:46+00:00

What is really getting at some men is some hypocrisy and double standards surrounding the prevailing 'feminist' narrative that overstates the extent to which gender and gender roles are socially constructed.

But let's not lose the plot entirely. It's this narrative on gender that is off, not our basic and long held intuitions. We need nuance and historical perspective here.

Someone's 'worth' is a complex and multi-faceted thing. But there can be no doubt that women have and are supposed to evaluate men, and that this evaluation is and always has been a component in how much we esteem men. It probably needs to be this way. But of course this is not the only perspective on a man's worth that matters. And it is possible for women's ability to properly evaluate men in general to become somewhat unmoored in a given time.

Coolio_Street_Racer · 2022-05-12T18:27:51+00:00

In an ideal world yes. But we don't live in an ideal world. Get with the program or don't. The end result for both is quite clear and will never change.

Orange_Paisley · 2022-05-12T18:42:46+00:00

Sure, drugged out criminals get relationships, but would you want to date the kind of girls who date drugged out criminals? They are usually drugged out criminals themselves.

Mr_Chad_Thunderpenis · 2022-05-13T14:28:55+00:00

There is a huge difference between getting no female attention, getting some female attention and getting a lot of female attention. If you feel inadequate because you don't have a queue of a dozen supermodels ready to spread their legs for you every night, then you are a moron. But if you don't get any women at all, the last time you had sex was like 5 years ago and the last relationship was 10 years ago, you pretty much failed biologically. We like to pretend we have transcended our animal instincts, but we have not. And getting no pussy can destroy the self-esteem and self-worth of even the brightest individuals. It is what it is.

CeaseThisThottery · 2022-05-13T18:26:58+00:00

The more I read of men's struggles on this forum (assuming they're being 100% honest and not just lying to themselves, which is going to be a lot of them), the more I get the sense that there's a lot of them looking at things the wrong way.

Life isn't an equation to solve. In ages past being able to provide for someone may have been enough for them to be attracted to you. But that's long gone.

A woman who wants a relationship (I'm leaving casual sex out of this) wants someone who brings something into her life that she enjoys. The kind of man she ends up dating long term (short term is experimental, it can boil down to just her being curious about something) tells you about what she values. If, as you point out, this hypothetical woman is dating a druggie, then she values rebellion and living dangerously. She's after the thrill of doing what she has been told not to do. Conversely, if she's dating a fun nerdy type of guy, she values his wit and lighthearted nature.

Ultimately, I think the biggest problem men who are struggling with dating are facing is not being able to form normal social bonds with others. Making friends in a lot of different places gives you the kind of exposure that creates opportunities for someone to be attracted to you. If you're doing that and still not having any luck, then you can start troubleshooting where other problems might be.

Play_Muted · 2022-05-12T16:37:20+00:00

I disagree, I would give scientific explanation to explain why I disagree but its pointless.

There are lots of things that can determine value, I dont think only sexual selection that determines someone's value BUT I do think it plays a huge part on that.

AbbreviationsHot1200 · 2022-05-12T16:45:20+00:00

The things that women are attracted to are usually bad for society, so yes, a man's worth should not be determined by women's attraction.

A man's worth should be based on his skills and abilities.

PlayfulLawyer · 2022-05-12T17:21:01+00:00

As far as societal and self worth? Absolutely correct, every individual is worth whatever they contribute to their family, their friends, their workplace, Society in general, etc.,

As far as the dating market, unless you're homosexual, your worth is absolutely based on what the other gender generally finds attractive, it wouldn't be based on anything else lol, if a guy is 5 ft 5, broke, 260 lb, small dick, beta male traits, no status, susceptible to ass whoopings etc.,

I would describe that individual as fairly worthless on The Dating Market, he might find the one outlier chick that's into that, but he's not exactly batting them away lol

sublimemongrel · 2022-05-12T20:35:39+00:00

Those types of rebuttals while problematic for a variety of reasons are usually in response to arguments that a guy is doing everything right and getting nothing but rejection. They are not normally specifically saying anything about such dudes “worth”

clivemalone · 2022-05-13T03:42:10+00:00

You get no bitches brother it’s ok

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meteorness123 · 2022-05-12T16:59:41+00:00

good point. but to implement it tho

basedconfidentsbro · 2022-05-12T17:47:13+00:00

most women that find criminal attractive because these criminals have dark triad facial features that are attractive and also your personality means nothing to a women if you are not facially attractive that could mean having a jawline or nice eye area or even hair on your head can attract women

HazyMemory7 · 2022-05-12T20:31:40+00:00

Should and is are two different things. Getting women will always be apart of status for a man.

So often in this subreddit people complain about things that have always been a certain way and will never change.

squeamish · 2022-05-12T23:34:09+00:00

It's not unless you want it to be.

Drougen · 2022-05-13T01:54:04+00:00

It's not only that, it's also based one what he owns and how much he makes

LarryLooxmax · 2022-05-13T02:38:35+00:00

it's way too easy for people to fall into the easy-going, complacent, wishful thinking just-world mindset of "i am a good person even if i cant get girls"

nah, probably not. probably there is something off or weird or suboptimal about you that you haven't really come to terms with or aggressively sought to overcome.

even on the off chance you can't get girls through no fault of your own... there's something to be said for raw strength. achievement. power. amoral success detached from any conception of good or evil. AND THAT IS WHY the vast, vast majority of straight dudes who cannot find a woman to respect and love him are gonna feel like shit

SHOULD does not factor in unless you're a super aspie tier intellectual who can derive satisfaction from life achievements or a zen outlook .. for most people, validation comes from having a stable, great relationship with a person you are attracted to

just in raw genetic terms, a woman having sex with you IS your measure of value, its the reason sexual selection even evolved in the first place. males are literally programmed to not be happy if they can't pass on their genes.

ffandyy · 2022-05-13T04:34:16+00:00

It’s not

Catherine772023 · 2022-05-13T09:07:00+00:00

Social skills, kindness, hygiene, flirting, looking good, being in shape and having your own place helps. This applies to men and women. But I don’t think it’s true that men are worthless if they aren’t dating/desired.

Some men are focused on something else and aren’t focused on flirting much and if that’s their choice they aren’t less valuable.

No one is perfect and I don’t every man is worthless if he doesn’t look perfect or is a bit socially awkward.

Being autistic doesn’t make someone a looser. Lots of autistic people are socially awkward but have good hobbies and their quirks don’t make them unworthy beings. It’s horrible to m

istreat someone for being autistic. Not all autistic ppl are stupid. Steve Jobs might have had autism. And some with autism are nicer than him.

Personality matters and the toxic exes got dumped because women were tired of them and although some guys in prison get women (usually women with issues or crimes herself) it doesn’t mean most women want that. Incels should see personality matters because Elliot Roger wasn’t even bad looking.

Having said that things are complicated and sometimes women choose the wrong men and you’re not unworthy of you’re single.

A truly good man values friendship and isn’t always whining about the friend zone and is a good person not just to get dates. He makes the lives of other ppl better because he cares and wants to treat ppl right. That’s real value.

I also think if men stopped whining and dated women regardless of N count they would get more options. And if they dropped their Madonna Whore complex

Idgafaunsyadig · 2022-05-13T09:47:54+00:00

It’s not. It’s based on money.

jamesbwbevis · 2022-05-13T11:00:12+00:00

Its extremely toxic but it will always be the case. As a man its just another thing that's accepted.

CautionaryWarning · 2022-05-13T11:53:09+00:00

People who define their self-worth from female attention are just mindless consoomers. They are unable to examine where their feelings come from.

I need sex and female attention! Because... because I just do, OK?!

psst, you lived just fine without any of that for like half of your life, and the reason you're like that is not puberty.

Werewolf-Wild · 2022-05-13T12:44:43+00:00

Eh, while things have jumped the shark and the bar has gotten asinine for men, humans are still a species of animal. Assigning value based on the ability to attract the opposite sex, for both sexes, isn't going anywhere.

dietwindows · 2022-05-13T14:23:15+00:00

Female attraction is interchangeable with male social status. Combined with the Just World Hypothesis, anyone who doesn't attract women will be assumed to be trash. That's not a cultural artifact, it's our genes in action.

Women calling dudes a virgin as an insult, again, not a cultural artifact. It's women's job to identify "low value" men and communicate that information to others.

Alexandra2265 · 2022-05-13T14:53:00+00:00

100% agree. Reverse statement should be true as well.

HiddnStar · 2022-05-13T15:36:57+00:00

As a gay man, this happens a lot in gay dating spaces too, so it isn't exclusive of straight men.

gate18 · 2022-05-13T17:10:07+00:00

You are correct but

Keep your head up high kings.

No one is king. Not even the amazing man that got the amazing woman.

You (man or woman) should not tie your worth to other people.

Because even if you do get "the woman" people will find something else to put you down. After all, plenty of men have a woman, yet they aren't free of judgment.

You don't need to elevate yourself to the status of a king to keep your head up high.

No one thing satisfies us.

No matter if you get the woman, no matter if you win the lottery,... eventually the high wears off and you'll still be faced with the same person you are today - yourself.

ClaraBow01 · 2022-05-13T17:49:59+00:00

I definitely agree. Same goes when the genders are reversed. Nobody should be judged based on if they are dating or not.

Jacke766565 · 2022-05-13T19:01:50+00:00

You can call it "worth", "value" or whatever. Truth is, if people treat you like shit and you miss out on the best things in life, while shitty men don't, it doesn't matter how you explain it.

Occams_clipper · 2022-05-13T21:21:22+00:00

Agree 100%. But you have to realize women will always try and apply just-world fallacies to men they find unattractive. So any cultural shift in favor what you're proposing will have to forced by men.

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UselessRepertoire · 2022-05-12T17:59:08+00:00

Basic human biology doesn't care about your lofty ideals about what is "worthy".

How many times have you seen drugged out, criminal, douchebag, loser, without a job men that had relationships?

To be honest, never.

It is fairly common, especially the "criminal" and aggressive type

See, here's the thing. You basically cannot be a criminal and NOT be an aggressive, extroverted faux-badass. Which is exactly what women want in men.

You just added "drugged out" and "loser" to this for no reason to try and make a point.

gabatme · 2022-05-12T19:16:16+00:00

I have literally never heard someone say that all single people are flawed/worthless/unhygienic, etc. I can see the other way - I.e. if you suck, then it makes sense that you’re single. But not single => bad

shadowofdoubt13 · 2022-05-12T21:36:45+00:00

No. Women are a perfect measure of a man’s value. Nature intended it just like that. Getting more women increases your value as a man. If you get more beautiful women, in the matrix of nature, you are superior to other men

CentralAdmin · 2022-05-12T23:54:29+00:00

It is very difficult for men to separate their value from how much approval they get from women.

A man who is successful with women is generally attractive. That's going to add to his self esteem and improve his self image. This man will also probably have options for partners and being lonely or sexually frustrated is less likely to affect him. These things do weigh on the minds and hearts of less attractive men.

Women have also not let men have a choice regarding traditional gender roles in the same way men have agreed to free women from them. A woman can be a wife, a mom, a worker, an academic or anything else she wants to be. And a man dare not tell her what she should or shouldn't be. Men are also criticised for not noticing more about women when it comes to attraction.

Meanwhile, men must be taller, more financially successful and even the toxic ones tend to get more female attention. Men who adhere to the role of provider and protector are far more likely to experience romantic/relationship success than men who are submissive, homemakers or have more feminine traits. A man cannot be anything more than what a woman wants and any criticism by men that women do not notice more is seen as whining by a bunch of incels.

In other words, it is okay to insult a man on his sexuality. Or to insult his inability to attract a woman. It is not okay to insult a woman on her sexuality or her promiscuity (in mainstream media or in the public).

Considering it is much harder for men to attract women than vice versa, insulting their sexuality or claiming they are too low value for anyone to love is a a cheap shot. It is the Just World Fallacy, that they somehow did something wrong to deserve their fate. Meanwhile any woman who cries about being lonely gets support from men and women.

There was once even a female incel subreddit that had to go private because too many men kept messaging them!

So in order for men to avoid this mental trap of tying their worth to women's approval, they need to see themselves as more than workhorses or performers for women. They would have to think of themselves as other than protectors and providers. But they would also have to accept that not many women would be into that. For these men, they could rather focus on staying single, seeing the occasional escort and otherwise not wasting time and energy trying to convince the women around them they are worthy.

hari_hbp · 2022-05-13T11:07:44+00:00

Like hire a private investigator, yo that's going to extreme lengths.

Title	Men's worth should NOT be based on women's attraction
Author	Standard-Inflation10
Upvotes	230
Comments	395
Date	May 12, 2022 4:28 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/uo50va/mens_worth_should_not_be_based_on_womens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/mens-worth-should-not-be-based-on-womens.1114492 https://theredarchive.com/post/1114492