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Mr. Right vs. Mr. Right Now

April 16, 2014
3 upvotes

If you do a google search for "Mr. Right vs. Mr. Right Now" you will find article after article using this phrase to describe two different "types" of men and the relationships between women and these men. Mr. Right Now is the guy you might hook up with, have a fling with, be in a short term boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, but isn't taken seriously for a long term relationship.

Mr. Right is "the one" - presumably the man she wants as a husband.

Mr. Right and Mr. Right Now are judged completely differently, based on different standards.

How is this very common sentiment very different than the way TRP talk about sluts vs. virgins and spinning plates vs. settling down? If TRP is "misogynist" for having double standards when it comes to women for hook ups vs. relationships, wouldn't this far more common sentiment be considered "misandrist?"

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Post Information
Title Mr. Right vs. Mr. Right Now
Author jacks1000
Upvotes 3
Comments 39
Date April 16, 2014 10:22 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit /r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/mr-right-vs-mr-right-now.285881
https://theredarchive.com/post/285881
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/237x3q/mr_right_vs_mr_right_now/
Comments

[–]MissPearlEditor of frequent typos.6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I try to stick to a policy of never taking haploid genetic information from men unless I deem being tied to them for the rest of my life would not be a complete disaster- accidents happen and abortion access may turn out to be less available than you predicted.

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman5 points6 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Uh, maybe I have different search results than you because of location and shit (my top result is canadianliving, probably not going to show up for americans). A quick look shows this.

Search Result #1: How to tell if he's not planning to stay with you long term.

Search Result #2: Don't dwell on relationships that could have been, or pass up great guys for some ideal of finding "the one".

Search Result #3: Percentages of women that have casual sex, regret it, think it's worth it, and how many get attached after a one night stand.

Search Result #4: You won't find Mr.Right if you're wasting time on the guy that TRP would consider alpha.

Search Result #5: You'll probably date a bunch of guys that don't meet your needs before you find the one you'll be with forever.

So what are you talking about, exactly? Because I can't find examples of this analysis of "standards" for these men or even a solid claim that "Mr.Right Now" means what you say it means.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Mr-Right-vs-Mr-Right-Now

There, on oprah.com no less. It's an article about casual sex vs. long term relationships, titled "Mr. Right vs. Mr. Right Now."

It's only one, I'll give you, but it's freaking Oprah Winfrey's website, ok?

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yea, remember when I described Search Result #3? That was it, obviously. Problem is it doesn't say anything about anything. It's just percentages of women that enjoy or regret casual sex. It doesn't say anything about there being a "type" or what "standards" girls have for this, I don't think it even directly addresses the fact there was a man involved. It's just how girls feel about casual sex.

[–]jacks1000[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Well, the phrase has been around a lot longer than google, I'm pretty sure it was used at least once on Sex and the City and other TV shows. I simply mentioned that if you google the phrase, you'll see it's very common.

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Uh huh... but if I say the phrase "having a laugh" means having sex, and someone says that it isn't used to mean that, I can't defend it with "but it's been around forever". No matter how long it's been around, it still doesn't mean that.

You are arguing that it means one thing, and when I follow your advice to search it and see examples of how it's used to form an opinion on it, and I find people use it in a completely different way, and now you still say I should address your fabricated premise that everyone (citation: google) is talking about Mr.Right and Mr.Right Now the way TRP talks about "sluts and virgins"?

It doesn't work that way. Jesus. This is like a horribly mangled version of the "assume the cow is a sphere" joke.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

You are arguing that it means one thing,

OK, my apologies. This is a well known phrase that has been around forever. You will find all sorts of articles defining the categories in different ways.

I suppose the top 5 articles you spent a few minutes scanning from the Canadian google are using this phrase - which is at least 20 years old, possibly even going back to the 1970s - with different take than the ones I specifically mentioned in the OP.

But really, I thought everyone knew this phrase.

"Mr. Right Now" is often used in the context of "he's not right for marriage but he's right for a hookup."

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Exactly why I'd like to see some context for how it's used, by someone that actually uses it sincerely. That doesn't make sense to me. I can't imagine why you would want to be in a relationship with an expiration date. I've always been confused by that concept and would like to see what these "articles talking about it", that you claimed were all over, said were the benefits or "standards" for a relationship like that.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

OK, it's not the phrase itself, it's the sentiment. Are you really suggesting that women do not hook up with guys they would never marry? As far as I can tell, many women very much like casual sex and might very well hook up with a guy she found unappealing for a long term relationship.

Women don't always just have sex with men one after the other then stop because one decided to marry her. Plenty of time they just want Mr. Right Now.

So really I'm not trying to make some case about the specific phrase, which as I said is pretty old. It's about this particular sentiment.

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yea, I guess I get that. If my understanding is correct though, it doesn't really compare to the RP thing at all. TRP is making a superficial judgement value on a supposedly non-superficial relationship.

One Night Stand: Totally superficial. You want a guy/girl that's willing to go home with someone that night. All that matters is that their body is nice and that they have a basic understanding of how sex works. Personality can matter if they portray "i'm a freak in the sack" well, but generally doesn't matter. It's just two people having a fun time rubbing their bits together.

Long Term Relationship: Requires deep compatibility. Looks, goals, personality, chemistry, respect, etc. Boiling that down to "0 parters = yes, 10 partners = no" is ridiculous blind slut shaming.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

See here's the thing. Men and women value different things when it comes to long term relationships. For example, women generally want a man who is taller than them. Something men can't even control. Men on the otherhand don't care about height (a 5'5 man isn't going to care if he's dating a 5'7 woman). Men have a category for mate selection that women don't: is she virtuous or a slut? It bothers the hell out of women that we most men put importance on a category that most women don't care about. Men evolved to avoid relationships with sluts to avoid getting cuckolded by one and getting stuck raising another man's child. Women need to get over it. Men are allowed to have standards for relationships. Everyone discriminates against people when it comes to who they allow into their personal lives. It's nothing new.

[–]purplepill2Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men evolved to avoid relationships with sluts to avoid getting cuckolded by one and getting stuck raising another man's child.

No they didn't. It's a cultural thing. I hate the RP "let's pretend it's science based on shaky theoretical shit that I found on the internet" thing. We, as a people, do not know what cavepeople and shit were thinking or 90% of how they interacted. Everything written about it is speculation. Educated guesses.

Don't compare physical attractiveness as a method of deciding whether you're attracted to someone, to some judgement on their history. It is not the same. It's like saying "men want a woman with nice boobs, so men can't complain if a woman wants a man who is rich".

There is so much more to relationships than that, and if you want a healthy one, dismissing people outright for a reason that's only tangentially related is stupid, and a dick move. If a girl dismisses a guy for not being rich, what are you going to think of her? That she's a shallow golddigger. Very negative trait. Same goes in reverse.

No one can stop you from being a dick, but that doesn't mean you're NOT a dick.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are double standards for a reason. Women just want to have their cake and eat it too. Men also face unfair double standards as well. You have to take the good with the bad. Most men don't want a woman with a slutty past, get over it.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I think both men and women (of all sexual orientations) will draw a proverbial line in the sand between "I wanna fuck you" and "I wanna marry you". This is absoultely a thing that exists, but it's not some woman-only thing. It is literally the exact same thing as TRP's "sluts are great for fucking but not commitment gotta get a high SMV gal" attitude with the genders reversed. So yes, if a man draws a line between Maddonas and Whores, it is the same when women do the equivalent. That's what I don't understand, though. If RP guys are cool with spinning plates, why is female "hypergamy" a big deal?

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It is literally the exact same thing as TRP's "sluts are great for fucking but not commitment gotta get a high SMV gal" attitude with the genders reversed.

I pretty much agree with this, in fact I think you said as much in a previous comment which I think party "inspired" this one.

If RP guys are cool with spinning plates, why is female "hypergamy" a big deal?

Hmm, I think "hypergamy" is taken as more just "the way women are" not something they are shamed about, like being a "slut" for example.

[–]Damned_Hedonist0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I guess I would have to ask then, why is female hypergamy worse than male hypergamy in TRP? why is it wrong for a woman to explore her sexuality with casual flings before settling down?

these aren't really directed at you since i'm not sure how you see this, more to TRP where this seems to be common.

[–]jacks1000[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

why is it wrong for a woman to explore her sexuality with casual flings before settling down?

It's not "wrong" per se, it's that serial monogamy is a woman's strategy. "Spinning plates" - i.e. polygamy - is men's strategy.

Are you willing to be a "plate" spun by an "alpha?" (Like Charlie Sheen's goddesses) If not, why expect men to follow your sexual strategy, slut it up - er, sorry, explore your sexuality - when in your 20s at the height of your attractiveness, then find a "nice guy" when you're 30.

The guys who you rejected at 20 may have made something of themselves by 30 and simply aren't interested in committing themselves to you. The guys you hooked up with in your 20s are likely to going keep hooking up with other women.

Monogamy was a compromise; a woman toned down her hypergamy - she couldn't just sex up random guys, she had to pick one willing to invest in her - and men toned down their polygamy - they had to remain faithful to their wife.

Well, women decided they wanted serial monogamy. It worked since the 60s. But now you're going to have to deal with men's polygamy.

So, be a sister wife.

Traditionally, when women are young, hot and fertile, they pick a husband, have children with him, and all that sex with a hot 20 something makes him fall in love. But if you are "exploring your sexuality" in your 20s, no one man is going to fall in love with you. So, you start over at 30 with a new guy. But now you're not the nubile, fertile young lass anymore. So, you just don't have as much to offer.

...

Really, so many women are just the mirror image of the complaining TRP types. "But men should want a 30 year old with plenty of sexual experience. They should not want some young hottie, that's gross!"

It's like a TRPre saying "but women should want a Nice Guy!

[–]StabbyPantsPillhead0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The guys who you rejected at 20 may have made something of themselves by 30 and simply aren't interested in committing themselves to you. The guys you hooked up with in your 20s are likely to going keep hooking up with other women.

what's funny is that, had she not passed on the guy with potential, she'd probably be in a better place.

[–]Damned_Hedonist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

serial monogamy is a woman's strategy. "Spinning plates" - i.e. polygamy - is men's strategy.

mmmm i don't think that's the whole truth. back in pre-history it worked something like this: women give birth and are physically unprepared to handle a fistfight during pregnancy. that's why it's smart to mate with a guy who is both strong enough to fight off threats, intelligent enough to find and bring her resources while indisposed, and gentle enough to be a good father, thus making their offspring more likely to survive. that's long term strategy for a woman. men also have long term strategy, and it involves showing potential mates they are capable of the above. note that this is unrelated to whether or not they love each other, and more describing what results in the best outcome for the offspring. a child with two parents caring for it often does better than just one. we are focused on our individual experiences in dating it's easy to forget evolution and fitness of offspring is what drives it all.

in contrast, there are the short term strategies men and women have where a person doesn't invest much time or resources in any single mate but takes many mates instead. a man can spread his seed far and wide and a woman can have children by many different men. there are advantages and disadvantages to this for both sexes: if a woman has a good support network, a man sticking around may not make much difference. if she doesn't, it's more likely the offspring don't live to reproduce. for a man, he has the chance to have many more children, but those children may not live long enough to reproduce.

Are you willing to be a "plate" spun by an "alpha?" (Like Charlie Sheen's goddesses)

no cause that's not what i'm into

If not, why expect men to follow your sexual strategy, slut it up - er, sorry, explore your sexuality - when in your 20s at the height of your attractiveness, then find a "nice guy" when you're 30.

I don't. that's a straw man you've set up. and there you go again trying to act like men being promiscuous and hypergamous is right and natural, while a woman who act this way are contemptible. look at the bigger picture: at some point these things gave our ancestors an advantage, they're not good or bad until a society comer along and says so.

The guys who you rejected at 20 may have made something of themselves by 30 and simply aren't interested in committing themselves to you. The guys you hooked up with in your 20s are likely to going keep hooking up with other women.

haha that's funny. it's like you completely ignore peoples' varying personalities, cultures and values. you're falling for the logical fallacy that all men and women think and act alike.

Monogamy was a compromise; a woman toned down her hypergamy - she couldn't just sex up random guys, she had to pick one willing to invest in him - and men toned down their polygamy - they had to remain faithful to their wife.

reread what i said about short vs long term strategies.

Well, women decided they wanted serial monogamy. It worked since the 60s. But now you're going to have to deal with men's polygamy.

now this i do find interesting. i don't believe most people were 'built' to mate for life. there are studies i'll throw up later which show people tend to have better health if they have a stable and supportive ltr, but that's if you're one in a million lucky. many people are only able to maintain their pairbond for a few years, which coincidentally, is about how long it takes for a child to become less burdensome for one parent. so you can be sort of chemically addicted to your mate for a few years as an evolutionary nod to the success of having two parents, and the way to tell if it will last is how you feel about them after 5~8 years. that article about women getting tired of sex after a few years likely has more to do with the addiction fading than 'hypergamy'.

So, be a sister wife.

ok, ew? no thanks.

Traditionally, when women are young, hot and fertile, they pick a husband, have children with him, and all that sex with a hot 20 something makes him fall in love.

haha you know the difference between love and lust? love doesn't die when they're not hot anymore. it takes a lot more than a hot body for someone to love you.

But if you are "exploring your sexuality" in your 20s, no one man is going to fall in love with you.

yeah ok. don't let my SO of many years find that out, we only fucked casually at first lol.

So, you start over at 30 with a new guy. But now you're not the nubile, fertile young lass anymore. So, you just don't have as much to offer.

uh huh. my job, years of life experience and personality will have zero influence once i start getting some laugh lines. and cause women never get married after thirty.

Really, so many women are just the mirror image of the complaining TRP types. "But men should want a 30 year old with plenty of sexual experience. They should not want some young hottie, that's gross!"

that's another straw man.

[–]alifib26 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

How is this very common sentiment very different than the way TRP talk about sluts vs. virgins and spinning plates vs. settling down?

You mean besides the shaming and judgment inherent in the way RP talks about it?

The woman doesn't think Mr. Right Now is doing anything wrong, it's just some fun.

A lot of guys on Redpill seem to hate "sluts" while at the same time doing everything in their power to get them to pay attention.

[–]jacks1000[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You mean besides the shaming and judgment inherent in the way RP talks about it?

Women "judge" men for their choices all the time. "Shame" I'll give you, but people "shame" other people all the time for many reasons.

The woman doesn't think Mr. Right Now is doing anything wrong, it's just some fun.

Are you suggest a TRP that hooked up with a slutty girl thinks she is doing something wrong?

A lot of guys on Redpill seem to hate "sluts" while at the same time doing everything in their power to get them to pay attention.

The TRPs complaining about promiscuity do not seem to be the TRPs interested in PUA. Many, many TRPs have said they are not interested in sex with sluts nor being sluts themselves.

[–]alifib24 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women "judge" men for their choices all the time. "Shame" I'll give you, but people "shame" other people all the time for many reasons.

We were talking about a specific instance. "Mr. Right Now" is not judgmental or shaming in the way "slut" is.

Are you suggest a TRP that hooked up with a slutty girl thinks she is doing something wrong?

Yeah, I've been on TRP and guys said things like "It's different when guys do it". They wanted to fuck them but also had contempt for them. Think of someone like RooshV.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

"Mr. Right Now" is not judgmental or shaming in the way "slut" is.

Well that could very well be a matter of opinion. I use "slut" to refer to any promiscuous person, man or woman. Is that still "shaming?"

Yeah, I've been on TRP and guys said things like "It's different when guys do it".

Eh, "it's different when girls do it" is a pretty common sentiment.

They wanted to fuck them but also had contempt for them.

There are certainly women who make harsh judgements about their previous hooks ups as well. It seems it's just the tone of the language that people object to, not the concept itself. If a woman were to say, "Mr. Right Now was super hot and great for sex, but just too dull for a long term relationship, Mr. Right is ok in bed but much more stable at this stage in my life" it's saying essentially the same thing as "sluts are fun for fucking but I'd never marry one."

Sure, the language is more flowery, but isn't the content pretty much the same?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure, the language is more flowery, but isn't the content pretty much the same

I think that is what people get caught up on. Change some of the words or reverse the men with women and I don't think TRP would get as much hate. People tend to instinctively defend women and when they're referred to as sluts or bitches people feel protective.

Just my opinion but I agree with some of what's said at TRP so I might be biased.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Rollo Thomassi, who sometimes posts in TRP and runs the rationalmale website, I think it probably the best "red pillish manosphere" writer. He's happily married, had plenty of "success" with women, and there's none of the really overtly hostile kind of things you might see on TRP.

To me, TRP guys "spinning plates" while calling women sluts and women calling TRP guys neckbeards and creeps are all just so much sniping and internet bitching to me, I don't think it has any larger significance.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like his website and the MMSL forum. TRP is a bit too hardcore for me. It's Red Pill on steroids over there.

[–]lxnarratorxlPurple Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not all of them feel that way, I don't judge a women as person on whether she has a high partner count. She could be an amazingly accomplished person. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a factor I consider before entering into a LTR with her though. Her number may be to high for me to feel like I want to be with her. Slut may be the word used by some but I don't think it is always meant as negative it simply easier than saying she enjoys casual sex with a lot of different men. Ill grant you there are a lot of angry and bitter men on the RP and I avoid there posts too.

[–]StabbyPantsPillhead0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The woman doesn't think Mr. Right Now is doing anything wrong, it's just some fun.

Which is fine if you settle down with someone who also had a lot of fun, or if you're as free and easy with the LTR guy as you were with the shiny thing you found for a weekend. If you approach it that way - as sex + something more rather than 'less exciting, more stable', you're fine.

[–]jacks1000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As an aside, one of my favorite movies is Carnal Knowledge, where Candace Bergen chooses Jack Nicholson as Mr. Right Now and chooses Art Garfunkel as Mr. Right.

It's from 1972, and illustrates what manosphere types call "alpha fucks and beta bucks" long before the internet and PUA even existed.

Great acting, great cast, great script. I highly recommend it.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I guess for my own life I don't see it as either or because there is probably quite a bit of variation depending on stage of life. I never bothered dating guys who were the stereotypical "bad" guys ( heavy partying/unreliable/high drama/messy personal life) because they weren't appealing short term or long term. What counts as a "nice guy" might be quite different from person to person.

[–]jacks1000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

probably quite a bit of variation depending on stage of life.

So it's not Mr. Right vs. Mr. Right Now, it's Mr. 20, Mr. 30, and Mr. 40?

I remember reading an article about the three men women need in her life. (Some pre-internet mainstream publication, this article stuck with me for years.)

It described the man a woman could discover her sexuality with when young, a more responsible type she would marry and have children with, then a third she could retire after the kids were grown and a divorce. It listed the various traits, good and bad, of the three different men. I've read similar sentiments to this many times over the course of my life in varying formats.

The "manosphere" and TRP types talking about "alpha fucks and beta bucks" and "spinning plates" and "sluts vs. virgins" read to me as essentially the male side of this dynamic, using much harsher, locker room type language more common among men than women.

It just seems the woman's version of this is pretty much considered ok, but the men's version isn't.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really, when I was 20 my judgement about people/relationships wasn't as great so who I thought was suitable changed because I got better at reading people, communicating, and establishing core values.

[–]Villaintine╰▄︻▄╯0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Once again it comes down to the language and tone that TRP uses. It's been said previously in other threads that TRP concepts aren't really as offensive as the harsh language they are communicated in.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope. Not the same in the least.

Mr. Right Now is not derogatory.

Slut is derogatory.

Plus, there is not an attitude, in general of disdaining those that do one night stands. With RPs, at best, they disdain and don't respect the women they have one night stands with. Often they downright hate them.

And the whole double standard BS in that it's "ok" for the guy to sleep around, but not the girl. Nothing like that with Mr Right Now.

Prime example of false equivalency.

RP is sexist and sometimes misogynist.

[–]Totally_not_a_shill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In general I don't think there is an issue with having different criteria depending on what kind of relationship you are looking for.

I think TRP gets into trouble for two reasons. The first is focussing too heavily on a womans "number". Not to say it shouldn't matter, but everything should be taken into context and there are a whole lot of other attributes that should matter more. You guys focus on it to the point where it becomes slut shaming and you look like old timey sexist assholes to everyone.

The second reason is the hypocrisy in saying that a girls "number" is the best (or one of) ways to tell if a girl is suitable for a LTR, while at the same time promoting the idea of guys sleeping with as many girls as possible, and assuming that a guy is still suitable for a relationship despite a high number. That also makes people pretty annoyed at you guys.

[–]jacks1000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The first is focussing too heavily on a womans "number". Not to say it shouldn't matter, but everything should be taken into context and there are a whole lot of other attributes that should matter more.

I get it, but of course "too heavily" and "should matter more" are just value judgements. You're judging TRP based on the judgements that TRP makes about other people.

It's just everyone judging everyone else, so what's the big deal?

You guys focus on it to the point where it becomes slut shaming and you look like old timey sexist assholes to everyone.

Slut shaming bad - old timey sexist asshole shaming good.

So it's ok to judge attitudes but not actions.

I mean I understand perfectly well why people would have this opinion, and I guess TRP types have a different opinion.

[–]slothsie0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

None of that is nearly as demeaning as trper's way of putting it in terms of women. Like, while reading the Oprah article, did you feel like a worthless piece of shit that was reduced to your sex organs all because while during your search for "the one" you still wanted to engage in casual sex?

Seriously, it's a realistic way to look at dating and relationships, TRP just takes it to whole other level.

[–]jacks1000[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Like, while reading the Oprah article, did you feel like a worthless piece of shit that was reduced to your sex organs all because while during your search for "the one" you still wanted to engage in casual sex?

No, when reading the Oprah article I did not feel like a worthless piece of shit that was reduced to my sex organs all because I was searching for the Perfect Virgin while I still wanted to engage in casual sex.

Not at all. I never had those feelings. Certainly not from just reading some article or random posts in TRP. Then again, I believe that I am responsible for my own feelings and other people's writing does not make me feel like a worthless piece of shit, ever.

[–]slothsie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then why do you care? You posed the question in relation to TRP's "sluts vs. unicorn virgins worthy of an LTR/marriage", no? I think it would be highly different if TRP were realistic with yes, not everyone you meet you will want to date/marry, but fun could be had in terms of dates and sex. Yay! which is more or less how the women's side presented it.

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