"Power Imbalances" are part and parcel of consensual relationships

nemma88 · 2022-01-20T17:37:10+00:00

There's a huge range in the scales of power imbalances in a relationship and I don't agree it is always imbalanced; but furthermore when it IS imbalanced it doesn't always mean abusive.

Abusive partners are generally good liars and will lie, omit and paint a picture that present them in the best light. They will do this convincingly and without remorse, a reason people get their heckles up about age gaps is many of these these liars and abusers will target younger people because they have less experience in spotting bullshit. That sort of naivety is easier to manipulate. This doesn't mean all aforementioned relationships will be and this manipulation can still exist without gaps; its just a overrepresented issue (because dating experience is acquired over time) which then leads into stats being unfavorable. Gap relationships have higher divorce rate, lower satisfaction rates etc - and if we want to spin back around a lot of areas 'imbalance' can occur have the same outlook- the more imbalance, the higher relationship failure rate.

Opinions and advising against them is more like when guys advise other guys not to date X type of woman than it is suggesting something like enforced monogamy.

On reddit and such many of the places this comes up is on /relationships, which obviously those relationships suck or the OPs wouldn't be posting.

Feisty-Saturn · 2022-01-20T17:11:45+00:00

What I have personally seen on Reddit in regards to age gap relationships where people are taking about power imbalance, there is woman or man who is usually very young complaining about something that is a huge red flag. They don’t realize what they are complaining about isn’t normal in a relationship because they are too naive and they have been manipulated by the older individual.

No one is talking about power imbalance between a 25 year old and a 35 year old, especially if they are both experienced. And most 25 year olds have some experience under their belt. When people are discussing power imbalance, it is mostly with 18/19 year olds who are with someone in their late 20s or older. And the advice in these dating subreddits is the same for both genders. The 18 year old man gets the same advice and the 18 year old woman. We just see these situation more with women.

Men who want the opportunity to be with a woman who is young and naive try to label this as old women being bitter. However, it is often young women who have escaped these situations who see the issue and are giving this advice.

I’m only 25 and I see how this could and why it does often go wrong. At my age I have no desire to hang out with an 18 year old and I know a lot of men my age and older who would also have no interest in that.

Ryanmp99 · 2022-01-20T17:30:04+00:00

Like it or not women perpetuate this when they constantly try to marry up, thus entering a relationship where they are by definition overpowered. People talk about the predatory men which are their own problem, but women seem to not think things through and then complain that an obvious consequence happened to them. “I want a powerful experienced man” 3 months later “I don’t like how much power he has over me” ???

throwawaylessons103 · 2022-01-20T15:09:36+00:00

There is a subset of men who will use the imbalance of power to manipulate women who have less life experience/are more naive.

Personally, I've been in age-gap relationships and I see they can be perfectly healthy. But I've always been financially self-sufficient and in a position where I could walk away.

I remember being on OKCupid when I was 18/19 and you didn't have to "match" to send a message. 40-50+ year old men would message me as if they were teenagers. They'd use too many emojis and weird lingo that I myself didn't even use at the time.

I also had a friend who briefly dabbled in being a sugar baby, and would have 2 different accounts on a sugar baby site... 1 would be a 19 year old and the other was 29. The same men would often message both accounts, and be completely respectful, agree to meet in public first, and understanding of sexual boundaries like condoms for the 29 year old... while insisting on meeting at a hotel and no condoms for the 19 year old.

There's definitely women who are simply bitter/jealous that a lot of men their own age would rather date younger, but I think more of the concern comes for the younger women he's choosing instead and why.

(Also when I say "age gap" I'm thinking 15+ years older minimum. 3-10 years IMO is normal after 21)

Harambe-2036 · 2022-01-21T21:44:47+00:00

30+ women are trying to spread the “power imbalance” meme as a way to shame their peers into dating them instead of younger women.

That’s really all it comes down to.

BlockedAgainIGuess · 2022-01-20T15:45:26+00:00

It seems like you’re conflating having standards with power imbalance

only that in this case the couples should be properly status-wealth-looks-age-n-count "matched".

Yeah you’re definitely conflating having standards with power imbalance

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-01-20T16:56:43+00:00

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cowfishAreReal · 2022-01-20T14:50:24+00:00

that Peterson's idea of "enforced monogamy" is outrageous because it is trying to force "equity" on something as primal as mate selection

What women say that? I never saw woman saying that, and if one woman did you can't attribute this opinion to all woman automatically. The reason enforced monogamy os bad isn't because of what it is trying to do or because of how primal anything is, it's because it's enforced, that's it. I like my freedom don't you?

Why do some feminists suddenly start sounding like mr.enforced monogamy here? -- rejecting free agency if favor of "egalitarian intervention" only that in this case the couples should be properly status-wealth-looks-age-n-count "matched".

Again literally who said that? What feminists are you talking about? The only people I've ever heard talking about couples having to be matched in status, wealth, and looks were men in this sub. And again, if one feminist said that you can't attribute it to everyone else

just_a_place · 2022-01-20T15:02:39+00:00

The power imbalance is kinda shifting the other way now that the majority of women ere earning more than men and are the head of the household.

Most of the women I date, am friends with, and hang out with are all usually superior to me in some way. Like they are either professionals, highly educated, esteemed, etc while I am just a blue collar worker still trying to work to create a foundation in my life.

Without beating around the bush to me it feels like women have more power in terms of resources, wealth, networks, education etc. So when I am in any relationship with a woman like that she has more power in the relationship in terms of decision-making, finances, and if she's an older woman she also has experience over me.

Not that I am helpless because the #1 reason such strong women are even attracted to me, besides my physical looks, is my attitude. Even though these women are "superior" I can still make myself useful to them and give them my effort and that seems to be what they appreciate the most. They like feelings that I am giving them my full attention and making myself useful and available to them and can take charge and step up so that they do not have to carry the flag all the time.

Sometimes women want to relax and have someone else take the wheel and they like it if a man can do that but especially a man who is intelligent and has the will to discern and anticipate her needs and provide for her in this new way instead of just providing cash. Powerful women usually prefer males that compliment her lifestyle which I think it means a more supportive male role like helping her with chores, offering advice, empathizing with her, helping her decision making so that it's not all on her shoulders, and yes also the bare basics like home repair, maintenance, house chores, running errands for her and having the maturity to look entirely after ourselves without her so that she doesn't have to worry about some immature response if she works late or is feelings tired.

mrmudzi · 2022-01-20T21:59:36+00:00

The assumption is always that the male is the predator.

However, my first sexual experience was at 20 with a 42yo very rich divorcee during a study abroad in France. Not only was I less than half her age, I was a non native speaker and broke. Cougar doesn't describe it, she was a wolf.

LittyKitsune · 2022-01-20T16:32:08+00:00

Welcome to Reddit. People will come on here openly criticizing the 100% legal, freely made choices of others literally all of the time. What they eat, how much they exercise, what they wear, what they post on social media, the media they consume, who they date, the list goes on and on and on. This does not mean that people are actively trying to restrict those choices.

I do not understand why people treat age gap relationships as some kind of sacred thing that gets to be out of bounds of critique as long as consenting adults are involved. You are correct, a man has "no obligation to turn down a romantic opportunity with a younger chick for what a 3rd party considers to be his career-life-eperience-stage-match proper." Where I disagree is the implication that this man is entitled not only to that, but approval/validation for it. That is unrealistic, and that is not how public opinion works in any area of life.

KirthWGersen · 2022-01-20T15:07:58+00:00

It is simple:

The one who needs the other less holds the balance of power. This can take all kinds of forms and is not dependent on age, gender, race or any other form of identity.

In a healthy relationship the person with the most power will use it for good.

In the end, everyone must make their own decisions. We should not try to police other people's relationships.

CatoftheBanals · 2022-01-20T17:57:57+00:00

I haven't seen anything on power imbalances. I do think that middle-aged men incessantly going on about "the wall" are trying to pressure much younger women into settling for them, and many are in denial about how sexually attractive they are to 18-year-olds, but that's about it.

SurelyWoo · 2022-01-20T15:18:15+00:00

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Vtridolla · 2022-01-20T15:43:57+00:00

Eh, I always tell people to tread carefully when they date way older or way younger people, not for some altruistic moral reason. It’s simply because the younger person is going through changes rapidly, still finding out who they are. I think it’s fine as long as you don’t step in the way of their individuality. A young person who is 21 will be a completely different person by the time they are 24. 20’s just require a lot of time for self. Which can be selfish.

Lateralanouncer · 2022-01-20T19:28:19+00:00

Really think about modern feminism it makes no logical sense. Even fighting for equality for only on sex is actually fighting in equality. Then how they change the past and use it for emotional arguments. Things such as did you no most men couldn't vote till after ww1, then woman right to vote cam shortly after. Feminist flip this in to an negative

juicyjuicery · 2022-01-21T10:08:17+00:00

Transactional /= consensual

Human brains don’t stop developing until age 25-26, so capacity is undermined below that age. Yes, people don’t date their clones, however power imbalances are supposed to be matched by complementing, combining, and sharing power, which many men seem to enormously struggle with. I raise issue with the aspects of power you site that are usually attributed to men: height, strength and (arbitrary) “success” (I guess making more money?). I raise issue with this because these aspects equate to ACTUAL literal power. “Pussy” - as you mention is NOT actual power. So, no, power imbalances should not be part and parcel of consensual relationships. Power imbalances exist but, in healthy and truly consensual relationships, people should strive to share power, be it resources, time, energy, etc. My partner is taller, stronger, and more conventionally “successful” than me. He shares power with me in the healthiest way he is ready for. I bring benefits and share my power in the relationship (ie, my care, skills, knowledge, wisdom, network; I’m more than “pussy”; he’d do fine getting this without me). People who want a significant age gap are usually predators or lack the social skills to be with someone more on their maturity level. It is effectively “buying” a younger partner: because much older men usually have no interest in sharing power (and much younger women usually have no interest in old peen). Transactional /= consensual. This is the mentality that fuels sex work, which people participate in based largely on women’s needs ($) and men’s desire (affection, sex), which is not, and can never be, truly consensual

DonQOnIce · 2022-01-20T14:57:11+00:00

Who is saying that men aren’t entitled to say whatever they want about their relationships? If it’s within the law, no one can touch you except to share their opinion about it.

poppy_blu · 2022-01-20T16:26:00+00:00

Aren’t men who fixate on n count and tell women they should stay virgins the same as feminists who fixate on age gap relationships and tell men they shouldn’t date young women?

Neither is illegal and opinions about your legal choices have little bearing on how you live your life.

I’ll ask you — why do you care if feminists don’t green light your relationship with a younger woman? I really wanna know.

armordog99 · 2022-01-20T16:26:25+00:00

Women tend to marry up. Some women will try and marry way up. There will be imbalances. There is a reason people say if you see an ugly man with a hot women he must be rich.

PlayfulLawyer · 2022-01-20T17:10:55+00:00

" power imbalance " is just another bit of terminology that people who don't want to take responsibility for their choices like to use

Midnight-writer-B · 2022-01-20T15:45:32+00:00

A difference between two adults or two teenagers is not a power difference and not as troubling. There are examples where very young women have nowhere safe to be so they take the next best option. And the man providing this option knows it and is not acting properly. Unfortunately, there are people whose parents do not show them unconditional love, give them a secure childhood, and model a respectful relationship. Some of these people are women and girls. Some men swoop in to “rescue” these types, who are starving for love and validation, and the men have a lot of influence. When men use the self-esteem hole of women (and teenagers) decades younger to have an inappropriate physical relationship or to mold their partner into their vision or to behave abhorrently, this is wrong.

Gigamon2014 · 2022-01-20T16:09:23+00:00

I remember watching a full blown argument between Floyd Mayweather Jr and his father in the run up to one of his fights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8dAjF5KvEs

A fundamentally toxic relationship where neither have issue bringing their many (many) past traumas. Yet it was the same tutelage which made him arguably the greatest living boxer today.

There are many, many fruitful relationships which have been fundamentally toxic. Thats human experience. What I am beginning to notice is this bizarre desperation for a kind of "egalitarian" fantasy which has left most men and women largely perpetually single, unhappy and unable to commit to anything longterm. I find it pathetic tbh.

justicejuiceidol · 2022-01-20T19:32:00+00:00

Why do males INSIST on playing dumb about this? No dude, no one gives a fuck if the 45 yr old successful guy decides to get with a 27 yr old woman.

The problem is when you creeps try to get at EXTREMELY young women / barely legal girls / teenage girls. Guys in their 20/30/40 who try to talk to young girls are creepy losers. Leave us young women ALONE.

Slipthe · 2022-01-20T15:11:01+00:00

Here's the thing. People can be free agents. Doesn't mean they are smart and actually only make choices that benefit them.

Pretty much all of the uproar you hear about grooming, manipulation and power dynamics in age gap relationships are just that. Clamor. Almost no one is actually forcing age gap relationships to end, unless it's like some teen daughter's dad and he takes away her privileges until she complies.

People are just judging the intentions of the older person, because there's this weird line some people dance on that when crossed is entering pedophilia and child grooming. So when you are on that line, your principles and intentions are scrutinized. No matter how 'free' the two agents are, people will not blindly trust that all relationships will have good outcomes.

sarkington · 2022-01-20T16:51:45+00:00

So what? We can still judge and have opinions on them

Smitten_Squire · 2022-01-20T19:01:13+00:00

Men and women arent equal. Bottom line. And thats 100% okay cuz thats how its made

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-01-20T19:36:56+00:00

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pubgmisc · 2022-01-20T15:50:20+00:00

Yeah the grass is green. Equality doesn't exist, feminists live on a different planet, you're using too much logic and truth for them.

You need to understand the game. The western world is a deregulated sexual market place and for the most part it’s global. Women are born with value and must preserve it, thus getting the best mate she can with her dual sexual strategy (alpha seed, beta need $). Looking for congruency, competence, leadership skills, body, knows what to do when to do it what to say when to say it, taller, etc. Often this can be helped with a male in her family because he doesnt want intercourse with her. Once she does, girl game is keeping the guy post sex.
Men are born without value, they must create it to be finally visible to women (80% of men are invisible, guy game is leveling up to become visible. Only the top 20% are dating girls), then once they are post 25 years of age and established, they will play the game, giving sex attention to many women, but will only give relationship attnetion to a woman who is chaste, feminine, can make a lemonade in summer, doesn't advertise herself to others. etc, often guys like this will still love her but bang other chicks, completing his dual sexaul strategy (unlimted access to unlimited sexuality while living their main girl because males are different, think athletes).
= Can you start to see all the confusion the happens in deregualted sexual market places like the west? low birth rates? higher prices of cat and dog food for 'left over women' ? etc. There's a reason why only patriarchies stand the test of time, because they keep responsability and authority together, keep checks and balances, buffer the male sexual strategy by installing monogamy, and buffering the female one by creating virgins and not giving them rights to monkey branch etc. This has been known around the world by each culture, not being aware of eachother, for millenia, based on fundamental laws of biology, but now the market is deregulated so… no rules I guess

flapperfemmefatale · 2022-01-20T16:30:28+00:00

I'm not buying the claim in your title.

GlumManufacturer1557 · 2022-01-20T21:26:44+00:00

The sub started excusing pedos, I'm out

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enthusiastic-beta · 2022-01-20T15:57:32+00:00

It's not the power imbalance that's problematic. What's problematic is always coercion. These are various ways people with power can use it to steamroll or compel another person against their will.

It can be informative to look at how extreme power imbalances work and are managed and one place to see this in action is medicine and medical research. The fundamental imbalance is that patients are sick and physicians and researchers hold knowledge and skills that the sick need. That imbalance can be abused and there are plenty of horrific stories happening all the time. In the past stories of research misconduct and abuse in the US got a lot of attention leading to a presidential commission and development of the Belmont Report which is a very carefully thought out framework for thinking about power abuses. It provides three ethical principles or ways of thinking about things (respect, benefit, justice). Basically it boils down to a structured way for formally thinking about "don't use other people purely as a means to a selfish end". The crux of it is requirements for the powerful to use honest communication, ongoing and revocable consent, and to genuinely care for the other.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with power differences and power exchanges, in fact I'm a switch and find power exchange in both directions to be extremely hot. But they need to have certain fundamental freedoms and ye olde thing about "with great power comes great responsibility" holds.

pueblopub · 2022-01-20T18:46:39+00:00

You said women want to date men who are more successful. But, how do you measure success?

Like, I certainly wouldn't want to date someone who considered themselves more successful, more talented, smarter than me. If they didn't feel like we were overall equals, then why are they even dating me? Of course, they'd be better at me than some things and I'd be better than them at others.

When someone feels superior to their partner (and may not even recognize it consciously!!) that's one classification of "power imbalance."

So

status-wealth-looks-age-n-count "matched"

is one way of trying to ensure relationships don't have one person thinking they are better than the other.

FPSzero · 2022-01-20T20:00:54+00:00

Enforcing monogamy is mostly a design for 2 things. Creating healthy family environments, and breeding soldiers/workers/taxpayers.

I'm not against polyamory but I do believe that monogamy is a better option for creating healthy children overall. Traditional households are more stable statistically. We could do without old traditions, but our ancestors got shit right and we love to ignore them lmao. I get it though modern times are changing rapidly.

luliloo · 2022-01-20T20:05:03+00:00

Yep, I’m dating a guy older than me and there’s a power imbalance.

I consider myself a smart and successful person and he is absolutely smarter and more successful than me so I trust his opinion on things.

I don’t see anything wrong with it as we are both adults with life experience. It is to be expected in this situation. I have dated someone older where there wasn’t a power imbalance before so it’s not because of age but the other factors related to it.

NoMarriageNoKids · 2022-01-20T22:09:23+00:00

The person who cares more in the relationship has more power.

kaoticgirl · 2022-01-20T23:32:03+00:00

What the fuck did you even just say?

FancyCocktailOlive · 2022-01-21T01:16:59+00:00

Power balances are only natural when women are the ones running the show. We’re Queens and men are Helper Bees.

wtknight · 2022-01-21T02:55:51+00:00

No, they're not really part and parcel of consensual relationships because children are best raised by multiple people, not by single mothers who have all been impregnated by "high-quality" men. Thus, humans have tended to naturally migrate to social systems where monogamy is a norm, even though many cultures have also allowed polygamy for men who can afford it. Therefore, it's natural for women to actually want to seek a man who is more of an "equal" at some point in order to ensure that her child receives resources from another person, although some women are known to "cheat" and employ dual mating strategies so that they can get the best of both worlds.

ogsimpology · 2022-01-21T04:59:09+00:00

Age gap relationships in todays age are a bust for women. They literally just get an older man, because on average, women are just as educated and successful as men. So when they turn 30, they'll match their husbands success. And her husband will just die sooner. Widowing her.

It's ridiculous...

AbsolutelyNobody0 · 2022-01-21T06:38:33+00:00

Frankly, this post is put together as if we can read your mind.

Peterson's idea of "enforced monogamy"

Jordan Peterson?
not his idea
anthropological/sociological term
you never properly explained it, hence the first line of my comment

Most-Emphasis0212 · 2022-01-21T14:50:58+00:00

Age gap aint a problem. Neither is some qmount of power imbalance. The problem is when an age gap relationship happens with barely legal teens.

Bc at that point its not power imbalance. Its pure manipulation and using a person for their naivete. People that young dont have q formed prefrontal cort3x. So if a 50 year old is dating a 23 year old, its problatic bc he s likely molding the younger person and manipulating them. Bc they simply arent biologically capable of holding their own at such q young age. Thats the issue. If a 60 year old is dating a 30 year old go ahead, nobody cares. The relationship is going to be looked down upon, but not power imbalance. Its about it being clear as day that that relationship is purely transactional and has no connection. U re using a person. It might be consensual but its still frowned upon.

hermetickingdom3 · 2022-01-21T22:38:01+00:00

Liberty is liberty

Egalitarian is egalitarian

You don't decide that you wanna have kids with tall and handsome dude and then make the rest of society pay for it. You want freedom of choice to select your baby daddies, he gets freedom of choice to spend and save your money.

srqfla · 2022-01-21T01:08:12+00:00

A woman under the age of 25 has the 2 most valuable commodities in the world.... Youth and beauty. These two cannot be replicated, replaced, manufactured, or faked. The problem is these two commodities have a shelf life and an expiration date.

A beautiful 18-year-old woman is given a lottery ticket that decreases in value until she's about 30.

LowCreddit · 2022-01-20T23:51:27+00:00

It has nothing to do with power imbalance. Power imbalance is sexy to women. It's about competition. Women don't want you dating foreigners or young women. They want you to be forced to date them, whether they want you specifically or not.

Women never state their actual opinions, because they aren't moral creatures. Fairness and honor are not in their nature. They are smart enough to not advertise this and deny violently when it comes up. They don't give a fuck about medical abortions, they care about fucking Chad and then killing the baby before it cuts down her ability to do cocaine in the bathroom. They don't care about fairness in marriage or divorce. They care about getting paid while fucking Chad. Women don't care about anything except fucking Chad and feeling smug around their frenemies.

Title	"Power Imbalances" are part and parcel of consensual relationships
Author	Johnny_Autism
Upvotes	122
Comments	333
Date	January 20, 2022 2:02 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/s8joii/power_imbalances_are_part_and_parcel_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/power-imbalances-are-part-and-parcel-of-consensual.1096557 https://theredarchive.com/post/1096557