The current dating market is evidence of our slip back into naturalistic mating behavior.

JumboJetz · 2022-12-06T02:41:42+00:00

A forgotten aspect of the past few millenia is that a giant percentage of men used prostitutes. We know Rome was full of whore houses. In 18th century America, I think a man losing his virginity to a hooker was definitely among the top ways to lose virginity if I recall one of the Freakonomics books.

Capitalism is a powerful force and if many men can’t get sex for free, women will flood the prostitution market and men will still get sex by paying for it. So we won’t ever live in a society where most men are sexless. It will just be the case that prostitution comes back in to widespread use potentially.

Barneysparky · 2022-12-06T02:54:01+00:00

The Nuclear family is a fairly new invention, and traditional societies can pinpoint it as the reason for the decline in western society.

Traditionally humans have lived like the Amish, in family groups in extended tight communities/tribes. Tradition humans across the globe that have not been urbanized still do.

I am completely for going back to that.

Financial_Leave4411 · 2022-12-06T03:56:56+00:00

What you just posted; I see here all the time. What needs to be done is for OP’s like you to follow this post up with a few potential solutions we can discuss. There is no point in constantly pointing out the same problem if solutions are never talked about. Sadly the only solutions I have seen discussed are ones that involve taking free will from women.

upalse · 2022-12-06T09:11:03+00:00

more naturalistic state

You'd need far more war and rape to get back to the "natural" selection equilibrium.

AidsVictim · 2022-12-06T16:33:18+00:00

A case in point would be mating. Without society and with no rules other than might makes right, humans would simply mate based on opportunity. This is exactly how most animals mate. The female of the species either mates one of two ways. She selects the most desirable mate and they have sex or a less desirable mate finds her and forces her to have sex. The males continue this process of finding females to mate with, in whatever manner they can. You end up with a select few males that are able to procreate regularly from multiple females and you also end up with a lot of suboptimal males that try to take mating opportunities via rape or live in perpetual frustration.

It is impossible to imagine human relations without society, as the formation of complex social structures is part of what defines humanity. If you "wipe" it all away it will immediately reform. Society is essentially "part" of the animal in humans case.

The modern liberation of women and their sexual freedom has essentially undone centuries of society attempting to rein in our animal instincts for mating. Women have a prerogative to want what they instinctually desire. A desire to mate with only the best the gene pool has to offer while having as many resources as possible to raise their young with as much safety as possible for their physical defense. Dating apps have essentially completed this ultimate goal that they have been seeking. It has increased their reach to help them find the best possible genetics of all that is available. However this does not happen in a vacuum and as women have been pushing to try to get back to their instinctual desires for mating by tearing down the societal constructs that attempted to control that behavior Men are also being forced to confront their own instinctual desires and returning to perhaps a more natural state of the male existence.

Everyone in society is still heavily conditioned through the most complex propaganda and psychological mechanisms in human history. While tearing down traditional social mores may have given way to new behaviour which one might regard as more "instinctual" it's still a far stretch from the "natural" world.

MuchMethod7039 · 2022-12-06T02:42:05+00:00

No, we haven't really slipped back into our "naturalistic" mating behavior, and animals don't really just "opportunistically" mate. Actually, there are several modes of what is called sexual selection and mating types with the majority of animal species having complex criteria and dynamics that decide who mates with whom. It's not that easy to compare animals to Humans given we have evolved and changed over millions of years. Human sexual selection has always been mate choice-- meaning the woman generally chooses which men she wishes to mate with based on certain characteristics and traits. What is interesting, is that anthropologists can actually track the traits that were significant among mate choice-- and physical strength used to be the most important factor. Now, it matters less. We don't just "go back" to another mode of selection.

uglysaladisugly · 2022-12-06T08:59:42+00:00

Hi, biologist in training and radical leftist here. This subject is very interesting but also very complex so I would like to give my two cents.

I am a firm believer that humans are no different than animals other than the fact that we can rationalize our way through life and try to put as much distance between us and our animalistic instincts. Many times this can be done through individual behavior, sometimes it requires mores and laws and a societal structure that reinforces behaviors that are distinctly different and more sustainable for humans to coexist compared to how animals behave.

This is more or less true but it is important to take into account that to "distance from our instinct" is actually our instinct.

When neo cortex grows, cooperation arise and highly complex social organisation takes place, the usual more "automatic" neuroendocrine pathways to regulate behaviour fade away more and more.This allows individual plasticity in their behavioral response. There is not point having intelligence otherwise. Big brains cost a lot to any organism.

So we could kind of say that having laws and social rules is our instincts.

A case in point would be mating. Without society and with no rules other than might makes right, humans would simply mate based on opportunity.

I do not think this thought exercise make sens because without society and without rules, humans don't mate because they don't reach reproductive age, neither actually survive.

The female of the species either mates one of two ways. She selects the most desirable mate and they have sex or a less desirable mate finds her and forces her to have sex. The males continue this process of finding females to mate with, in whatever manner they can. You end up with a select few males that are able to procreate regularly from multiple females and you also end up with a lot of suboptimal males that try to take mating opportunities via rape or live in perpetual frustration.

This is again extremely incomplete and reductive. In case of intersexuel or intrasexuel competition, female will either select a male or mate with the ones available. The ones available are the ones left on the territory after males fought for it most of the time. In monogamous species or species with monogamous tendencies. Females will also pair with an available male, the fittest they can find.

Mating behaviour are quite complex, even more in socially complex species. But yes, in sexual reproduction, most male gamets go to waste and in animals, the proportion of males reproducing every years is smaller than the proportion of female. That's very logical.

Women have a prerogative to want what they instinctually desire. A desire to mate with only the best the gene pool has to offer while having as many resources as possible to raise their young with as much safety as possible for their physical defense.

The study of mating choices in different groups of apes and primates shows that female choices are a lot more diverse and complex than this.

A lot of the choices are based on behavioural signs like grooming or care for the young and not on general physical traits very genetically controlled.

Therefore, I do not think we can make this broad guess for human females.

In addition to that, we are one of those specie using sex as a recreational and social bonding activity. The choice of partners for THOSE sexual interactions are even more complex than the reproductive mating choices.

This makes the analogy even less relevant.

Another point I want to raise is your focus on mating. Human societies, through nuclear family and industry among other things is creating a lot of other problems in regard of our physiological needs as a specie. For example, we are cooperative breeders and highly dependent on social contacts in order to bound in solid groups. And we live alone or with 2 or 2 people, alone to raise our children. We are isolated. I believe a lot of the frustration and difficulties you talk about are the consequences of those problems.

Why the focus on mating?

sigma1932 · 2022-12-06T11:32:45+00:00

TL;DR:

Females have degenerated into acting like feral animals because their biological imperative is completely unchecked in modern society, while males are being forced to remain civilized and maintain society for little to no return by having their biological imperative checked to a crippling extent.

This imbalance will eventually drive society to a breaking point in a number of ways, the best of which will result in a behavioral sink, which ultimately results in extinction due to demographic winter (something already happening in most western countries).

Understand that "civilization" is 100% artificial (i.e. human-made), and the key factor your hypothesis is missing is that males don't complete in nature like they do in civilized society (i.e. they don't pursue excess superficial wealth and status to show their ability to "provide", they just kill their rivals to eliminate them from competition and then mate by default instead)... this actually removes female choice in nature (i.e. women's only option is "whoever's left", which might not actually be a pleasant experience for them), while also removing the "safety" that civilization enables females to become "empowered" and "independant" in the first place.

AmbitiousCamp5942 · 2022-12-06T04:22:21+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Willow-girl · 2022-12-06T14:11:02+00:00

The modern liberation of women and their sexual freedom has essentially undone centuries of society attempting to rein in our animal instincts for mating.

Clearly the answer is to subjugate women again. /s

uglysaladisugly · 2022-12-06T09:27:09+00:00

I'm entirely against the nuclear family and happy to see it's downfall. Humans need extended family, friends and community. Anything else is artifical, a family cannot meet all of it's own needs without much outsourcing, thus propping up capitalism.

hypotenoos · 2022-12-06T03:18:00+00:00

Yeah a return to a world where there are scores of fatherless children who are essentially seen as a resource drain to their absentee fathers at best and possible future mating competition at worst sounds like a unique thing that was brought about by dating apps. It’s certainly not a phenomenon that exists in modern times before about 10 years ago…

RocinanteCoffee · 2022-12-06T02:28:35+00:00

In conclusion I think the frustration of the current dating market is the fact that a small percentage of men and most of women are able to live in their most natural instinctive states for mating behavior well the majority of men are being left behind and being forced to control their own instinctive state for mating.

This doesn't hold up with the actual facts regarding who has sex and dates throughout their lives. 98% of people (US) have dates, sex, and relationships throughout their lifetimes regardless of gender. Is the average age one loses their virginity getting older? Yes, slightly. Still averaging age 17 for most people in the US regardless of gender. And keep in mind most relationships are still heterosexual. So most of that 98% are straight relationships, dates, and sexual exchanges.

The pandemic, the high cost of living, the need for people who even have people skills and graduate degrees to work multiple jobs just to keep a rental's roof over their head all interfere with dating and sex to some extent. But generally, almost all people get laid by 17 and most of them are either married or in long term relationships in their twenties and/or early thirties.

Necessary-Worry1923 · 2022-12-06T04:15:29+00:00

I don't see any semblance to polygynistic mating by an alpha male to a harem of females.

https://youtu.be/6wnLUk1qiHA

Interesting lecture on the hookup culture by Psychologist Lisa Wade.

Banning Mormon polygamy in the US in the 1860s basically removed the CHAD power from the dominant male who fathered all the babies.

Today 45% of females will be single and childless and animal mating dynamics are out of the window as empowered women choose not to procreate.

https://youtu.be/RJcsQuORQrw

https://youtu.be/l13jKrJmNYY

T4mvv1lc0xx · 2022-12-06T08:57:39+00:00

At the end of the day, Darwinism wins

Transmigratory · 2022-12-06T05:21:40+00:00

In conclusion: a small number of people that barely interact with society feel they know what's what based on their wise echo chambers and endless thought experiments.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2022-12-06T06:59:08+00:00

First of all you have a increasingly smaller number of men with the best of genetics and resources having their pick of mating opportunities. Many of these men will refuse to settle down as there are simply too many opportunities to spread their seed

Except for the fact that even the attractive men don't tend to be fuckbois forever. Yes, they often try out the life, and maybe even enjoy it at age 20, 21, 22. But after a dozen or so women , it becomes routine and somewhat meaningless. I did it at that age because of societal pressure from my fraternity, not because I genuinely wanted to -- but I am much much happier when I care deeply about a specific woman. Even if I'm only having sex with a woman, I prefer one to two situationships or FWBs to cycling through women and always finding new ones.

Using primate evolution to describe humans only describes part of human behavior. You yourself recognize that the societal strictures determine things (i.e. monogamy and marriage and anti rape are all things society put in place to some extent). But what about societal benefits from monogamy that aren't present even when you have ten girls on speed dial? What about caring, genuinely, for another individual beyond just sex and the honey moon phase? It's way deeper than "grug want fuk. Grug go rape wuhmen. Grug PP happy"

obviousredflag · 2022-12-06T10:09:09+00:00

You are not a leftist at all. What are your very progressive viewpoints? Maybe, if you are an american, you think not agreeing with the far right makes you a leftist. Both democrats and republicans are right wing parties on average. You are likely right of center politically.

Those effects may turn out to be a net negative for society.

That's the basic position of a conservative mind: thinking that change in society will be for the worse and that sticking to what has worked in the past is the safer route.

A case in point would be mating. Without society and with no rules other than might makes right, humans would simply mate based on opportunity. This is exactly how most animals mate. The female of the species either mates one of two ways. She selects the most desirable mate and they have sex or a less desirable mate finds her and forces her to have sex. The males continue this process of finding females to mate with, in whatever manner they can. You end up with a select few males that are able to procreate regularly from multiple females and you also end up with a lot of suboptimal males that try to take mating opportunities via rape or live in perpetual frustration.

But what you are really also not, is someone who understands human evolution and biology. This is not at all how human mating "without society" would look like. Read a fucking book on the topic instead of taking your information from incel, blackpill and redpill youtubers and tiktokers. Start with "Sex at Dusk" maybe.

I've been rolling some ideas around in my head and just wanted to get them down on paper so to speak for people to critique

Please don't. You are not going to "come to a truth" from rolling ideas around. You can just read up the truth. There is hundreds of years of science on the topic and you are not going to reproduce it from your armchair. You do not have barely enough information to build a model of the world.

The modern liberation of women and their sexual freedom has essentially undone centuries of society attempting to rein in our animal instincts for mating. Women have a prerogative to want what they instinctually desire. A desire to mate with only the best the gene pool has to offer while having as many resources as possible to raise their young with as much safety as possible for their physical defense.

It has increased their reach to help them find the best possible genetics of all that is available.

Single-motherhood is still the strongest predictor of basically all negative life outcomes of children. It's only in the best evolutionary interest of women to find men who commit to them and child rearing, even if that means that the genetic material is not optimal. Men on the other hand, do not commit to lower mate value women and they don't commit on average to rearing children of other men, when they want children of their own and don't already have them. If women just want the best genes, they can go to sperm banks. That isn't happening on a large scale for a reason. You say it yourself, women want "as many resources as possible to raise their young with as much safety as possible". This requires commitment from the man and if all women focus on few men for genes, they are not getting commitment, because that requires 1 on 1 pair bonded relationships. It is not economical at all for "desired men" to have children with lots of women and hoping that "beta buxx" characters will care for their offspring.

First of all you have a increasingly smaller number of men with the best of genetics and resources having their pick of mating opportunities. Many of these men will refuse to settle down as there are simply too many opportunities to spread their seed.

Men are not spreading their seed. At least not in terms of procreating. Men are fucking a lot of women, but NOT getting a lot of children with different women.

You also have the less than desirable men struggling to find anybody to mate with. How does this manifest itself in the animal kingdom? Well usually either through forced copulation or a desire to challenge and take out the males that do manage to mate.

The animal kingdom has developed plenty of mechanisms to make forced copulation not result in fertilized eggs. Again, please read the Sex at Dusk book. Males who are not finding a mate are not capable of taking out the successful males. Because that capacity would make them attractive mates for the females. Females switch to the winner of a competition over the harem, because the winner IS the better genetic partner. In human societies, "taking out" someone as in killing, does not require any genetic quality, in fact, it requires a lot of undesirable traits and would not result in the harem switching over to the killer. Killing other humans was never tolerated and would lead to super unstable groups, since ability to kill is not defined by physical strength and there is no hierarchical order for who could take out whom. "Taking out" the leader always works by being better than the leader. Nobody just stabbed Genghis Khan and took over his harem. Human groups do not accept low mate value individuals overtaking like this.

We still live in a society with laws and thus these two behaviors are strongly controlled against under penalty of imprisonment or death.

We firstly live in a society where women do not carry out babies that are a product of rape. so whatever you think would be the natural response would also not result in procreation for the men who cannot find mates that are willing to commit to them.

In conclusion I think the frustration of the current dating market is the fact that a small percentage of men and most of women are able to live in their most natural instinctive states for mating behavior while the majority of men are being left behind and being forced to control their own instinctive state for mating. Ironically society has progressed so far and created advanced technology only to return us to a more naturalistic state of our biological condition for mating. What knock on effects will this have?

It's not like that. Few men are not having all the babies. They are having the lion share of the casual sex. In the end assortative mating is still how it works and women and men commit to similar mate value partners and have or don't have children together. Perpetually involuntary singleness is still the extrem outlier. And when it comes to not procreating, that is better addressed by changing the balance of the tradeoffs for having children, than by going back to required marriages and lack of contraception.

Lanzienator · 2022-12-06T03:08:15+00:00

Since you say you're a leftist.... evolutionary psychology is reductive, fraught with confirmation bias, and largely untestable. It's also the last holdout of social darwinism - an inherently reactionary mode of thought. Human beings are a highly complex interdependent species; shaped as much if not more by material conditions than essential biology. By reducing human behavior to gene selection, we obfuscate this complexity, and open ourselves up to a number of fallacious conjectures, taking for granted our biases about gender, sexuality and human nature....as inevitable, naturalistic fact.

Why do gay people exist? The only way evolutionary psychology can countenance their existence is by acknowledging that the survival of the human species thus far cannot be reduced to..... my biological drive to mate with someone of "the best possible genetics".

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2022-12-06T03:56:58+00:00

So all this started with dating apps?!?

Come on, even in the 80’s there were movies detailing life for the sexless males only thing that changed is echo chambers to circle jerk in.

I’m not fucking a dude because he wants to fuck me, im a human fucking being and some random dudes libido is none of my business, y’all legit need to get over yourselves.

I also love how conservatism is painted as sour grapes, you essentially said: I’m not getting what I want so I want to limit the rights of others.

Sounds about right.

throwaway8884204 · 2022-12-06T06:47:21+00:00

Counter point. This is good for our species. Let the best of us reproduce, the others (myself included) won’t if we don’t earn it. In our ancient days, we were stronger and better looking. Women’s natural instincts are correct and beneficial to thin out the maladaptive herd.

Nature always wins.

AngelxEyez · 2022-12-06T19:00:05+00:00

In which ways are you left leaning politically

HighestTierMaslow · 2022-12-06T16:45:19+00:00

The average man's current dating situation isnt from any of the factors you mention.

Its because relationships have greatly favored men in the past, now women's expectations are similar to that of a man's. And men cannot level up. The average man in the past has had expectations of women that he himself doesnt want to fulfill. Women have grown wiser nowadays and also have the freedom to have these expectations in the first place.

Most people in the world who are married, are average people married to each other. "You also have the less than desirable men struggling to find anybody to mate with" No, they could find women to mate with, its just women they see as beneath them. The last two sentences Ive typed are really the main argument to "purplepilldebate" in general.

West-Ad-9697 · 2022-12-06T08:29:44+00:00

mate, while I agree with your arguments it's not healthy to think of people as reactionary entities.

Not in the sense that you bring down society, but I mean not healthy for you. Think of it this way, "shutting down your self -iciding" can be reasonable and logical. But if it is justified morally for one person, then it is justified morally for all people that are unhappy or lack a reasonable hope of being happy.

It's a conditional requirement to believe in human autonomy and rational processes in order to interact as an autonomous human in a rational fashion. So please, stop thinking about mating, it's ruining your life.

As for your theoretical model, I would add that there are collective systems that although feature specific traits as general, the individual traits are not the same. No one person wants to burn down the planet, or reject ugly people from the gene pool - the collective summary of kind intentions, can and will generate global effects and results that amoral and undesired. And you - and a lot of sociologist, feminists, conservatards, policy specialists or incels are creating a moral attribute from analyzing systemic effects to the individualized causes which can and are usually absolutely unrelated - at least morally.

As for effects - I think it's presumptuous to say that humans can evaluate themselves to the degree of proving sociological inference. All sociological "conclusions" that are proven, have been created after the fact. Almost none of the unfounded claims seem to be true, true to a degree of establishing clear causality. This is because humans/society are reactionary and self aware. We react in real time to what we think of ourselves and how we perceive our environment. Are you a skinny nerd with no social skills. start fucking OF - the girls will love you for your technical skills and hard work ethic, just by being analytical and mecanistic - you become a ~PIMP~ chad for the OF girls. Absolutely no fucking model could have predicted that trend and tendency. Because at a systemic level, you could not infer how the individual would react, because behaviors are fundamentally creative, not mecanistic.

Dravidian06 · 2022-12-06T13:04:55+00:00

Society has become way more open, and people are engaging in coitus activities with more than one person in today's world. Even open relationships have become common these days. I don't think we can attribute everything about human instincts to animals, even though there are some similarities between us and animals. Human interactions and relationships are far more complex than most people realize. Women now have more options to choose from (this was not the case prior to the advent of social media or dating apps), and interestingly, there was this anthropologist who said we are polygamous by nature in his book Race, Monogamy, and Other Lies They Told You by Agustin Funetes. I'd like to think we became accustomed to monogamous relationships (because there was no clinical procedure to verify parentage of children back in the day, men gradually began to exert power over women's reproductive systems, and they began to sexually oppress them while slaying). Things have gradually changed. Women these days are open to all sorts of relationships and kinks, which is a good thing. We haven't regressed at all; things gradually keep getting better with time, as the next generations will be much smarter and more capable than their predecessors (far-left lunatics' indoctrination is making kids these days dumb). Well, I'm a polygamous guy who prefers to be in open relationships (there was a study done that says couples in open relationships didn't have trust issues, whereas naturally monogamous people would always assume that their partner was making a beast behind their back, so they would be doubtful of their partner's monogamous vows). Whatever type of relationship one chooses, one must be honest and cooperative with the other.

Gingerchoco · 2022-12-06T14:37:11+00:00

I don’t know what planet posters on here are living on. I see average dudes coupling up all around me.

AutoModerator · 2022-12-06T01:51:04+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

AutoModerator · 2022-12-06T02:31:39+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

syndactylity · 2022-12-06T16:17:58+00:00

“Might makes right” is the naturalistic mating behavior

While choice, consent, autonomy and mutuality are the weird outliers

Think_History_5682 · 2022-12-06T17:34:31+00:00

It's a woman's market... no duh!

vapordaveremix · 2022-12-07T23:08:55+00:00

This same claim was made 10 years ago when I was younger, dumber, and still read RP stuff. Well, we're still here and if there's any social decline then it's wholely financial. The dating market is as it ever was and we're still basically here.

And like, humans have been mating for 200,000 years. Our primate ancestors were mating for millions before the we were human. You don't need an authority to dictate how people fuck. People are just going to screw the way they want. Attempts to control it are just wasted energy.

There are problems facing men finding partners and in my experience it's an issue stemming from something within themselves.

Title	The current dating market is evidence of our slip back into naturalistic mating behavior.
Author	Fit-Faithlessness149
Upvotes	121
Comments	258
Date	December 6, 2022 1:51 AM UTC (3 months ago)
Subreddit	/r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-current-dating-market-is-evidence-of-our-slip.1142749 https://theredarchive.com/post/1142749
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/zdrgmk/the_current_dating_market_is_evidence_of_our_slip/