The importance of male neurotypicality is underrated in dating

HazyMemory7 · 2022-10-31T08:41:23+00:00

Note: I will provide sources upon request as links to studies are apparently not allowed in OP.

Links to studies are allowed. The "link dropping" rule is essentially for people low effort posting a single link of an article, study, or video with no explanation whatsoever.

Also changing this to a CMV because you're making an affirmative claim.

P.S. This post is very well written.

CosmicBioHazard · 2022-10-31T09:58:51+00:00

Meanwhile, studies also show that autistic women are more likely to have been in relationships than neurotypical men. As for autistic men, only half have ever held a girl's hand, and most have never had sex.

As far as my experience go, particularly on OLD, Autistic women are at the advantage of not “getting” that it’s the “man’s job” to approach.

That guy you like too shy to message? No worries, you’re too autistic to not just send the first thing that comes to your head, make a comment that’ll get the ball rolling on conversation. Batting your eyes from across the room and giving the poor fucker a generous 20 seconds to notice? That’s normie shit.

arizonaicedteabean · 2022-10-31T09:57:35+00:00

100% lmao r/aspergirls is literally all just “tehee I’m extra quirky when I’m pregnant but my husband loves me even more” (real post btw)

meanwhile while r/aspergers is all like “how do I make a friend?”

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-10-31T16:58:46+00:00

I think most people do understand this, they just don’t want to talk about it because it can sound mean and they don’t have a practical solution. Most people only have surface knowledge on autism and know they their neurotypical “tips” will probably be unhelpful and maybe insulting.

I am undiagnosed but highly suspect I’m an autistic woman. I’m 30 years old and just now making some female friends, sort of. I have been able to date men but not women (though it’s been harder than for normal women) because men are less perceptive of people being socially “off,” and don’t care as much about things other than looks. Women generally find me more physically attractive than men do but the awkwardness puts them off. So if an autistic woman is straight or bi she can date men, but lesbians will struggle. Autistic women also are usually better able to “mask,” so that helps. Still though, people don’t respond well to autistic women either.

samjeethyde · 2022-10-31T06:46:56+00:00

R.I.P autist bros, praying for ya'll

CloudsTasteGeometric · 2022-10-31T17:08:12+00:00

I'd upvote this a hundred times if I could.

As a neurodivergent person dating has been...difficult. I'm bipolar and have an anxiety disorder as well. I manage it well and am perfectly high functioning...but you can tell on dates where their interest falls to 0 when you finally disclose your diagnosis. Even if they try to save face and act sympathetic.

You can see it on their face: plain as day.

Then, maybe you might get in a relationship with someone, if you play your cards right. All it takes is ONE BAD DAY for them to leave you. They might hear the tremor in your voice or see you shaking during a panic attack. Or simply not being yourself in a depressive spiral. Just one glimpse at abnormality and it's over: you ruined it.

I'd consider myself an attractive, successful guy. I'm well educated, I'm tall, I'm fit, have a successful career, I'm handsome (I used to model, even)... literally none of it matters when they see you on a bad day. You're about as valuable as dirt, then, and about as appealing, too.

The worst part is that I can't blame them for not wanting to deal with that: even with a partner who is proactive on their care and functioning. But it really does feel very gendered. Men need to be stalwart, reliable, stoic...yadda yadda yadda.

But it rings true when you see another woman you love run for the door because you committed the sin of struggling during a bad day.

sparklyyblueberryy · 2022-10-31T15:37:48+00:00

Yeah I read a study that male virginity and sexlessness was to a large degree explained by autism.

oneandonlyA · 2022-10-31T10:31:59+00:00

Yup this post is very relateable. I have adhd and all my relationships have been short. I don’t have a problem pulling women, I’ve a problem keeping them. Always had to wear a mask even with my family, hence I don’t really talk to them anymore. There is nowhere in this world where the real me was ever good enough especially with women. Never got laid being myself. Once I get comfortable with people my mask slowly falls off and people start running away.

Tomridddle · 2022-11-02T03:04:00+00:00

If you watch Love on the Spectrum, you'll notice two things. First, regardless of how low functioning the women are, they all have previous partners or were asked out on a second date during the show. The second thing is that almost all of the high-functioning men had never been in a relationship. Only the lower functioning dudes in the show had or were able to find partners. I'm not sure why HFA guys have such a hard time finding and maintaining relationships. I used to hang out in a Discord server with an HFA "chad." He was extremely attractive like a model tier looks, intelligent, wealthy, knew how to mask well, attended college, and still struggled. He had no trouble finding women to sleep with, but none of them were interested in anything long-term with him. He eventually met a woman on Tinder and they dated for over two years. She had a substantially lower "smv" than him though. She was fat, older, a single mother, and from a lower social class than him. The sad thing was that she still treated him poorly and made fun of him for playing video games, not being super social, and having "aspie" characteristics. They only broke up because she cheated on him and dumped him for her affair partner.

I'm neurodivergent and scored " significant autism traits" on an autism quiz. I know that if I were a dude, my behaviors would doom me to a life of solitude. My shyness, social ineptitude, and general weird behaviour are usually viewed as cute and/or endearing by men. Unfortunately it’s really not that much better for us though. Even though we may have a much easier time finding partners, we still deal with a lot of other things. Neurotypical men either infantilize us or view us as their manic pixie dream girl. We're also way more likely to being taken advantage of because we're more gullible and trusting. We are put in uncomfortable situations because we are unable to pickup on certain social cues.

I'm not sure if women have higher standards or a lower tolerance for ND behaviour, or if men are simply more accepting. Personally, I have no issue dating an autistic man, and to be honest, I usually get along much better with them.

Fun_Push7168 · 2022-10-31T07:06:04+00:00

It's not underrated, it's fully well known and understood. It's not talked about a lot because nobody has even idealistic suggestions on how to help.

I do not however agree that improving how you are perceived or learning social behaviors is all masking.

At least for me I learned it all and initially consciously masked, eventually I was able to channel most of that into what I'd compare to muscle memory for a physical activity. It's still conscious but it doesn't require nearly as much brainpower to be dedicated to the task. Conscious, but somewhat automated and also pared down to levels of importance.

My personal method I'm sure would only help a fraction of people but I'm certain that some can be helped.

JDWhiz96 · 2022-10-31T08:40:08+00:00

This is completely anecdotal so take it or leave it.

Ime ND women are more likely to have sausage fest jobs and hobbies that increase our chances of meeting men. Without this I think ND women would not do nearly as well with dating. The biggest thread I've noticed among ND women who haven't got on dates before is not having some male-oriented skill or hobby.

ND men end up in those same sausage fests for the odds are definitely not in their favor to get with the 1 or 2 women who are involved with their social circle. A 10:1 male to female ratio in a friend group is going to lead to one very happy BP nerdy guy and at least 5 who are kinda happy for him but also really jealous because they lowkey liked her too.

cmvmania · 2022-10-31T18:08:05+00:00

On a more personal note, I am 28, autistic, and rice is a staple family food. We all frequently enjoy eating it with bok choy and dried pork.

You are an asian dude, but definitely not south asian. In the western world there is clearly an ethnic tax due to Hollywood and the pp size prejudice.

Brilliant_Look4387 · 2022-10-31T07:04:29+00:00

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Brilliant_Look4387 · 2022-10-31T08:33:04+00:00

I don't understand what is the question, but maybe I can offer my perspective, as a female with suspicion on autism.

I have been in one relationship and it was with another autistic person. I have tried to date NT people but after a while they are no longer interested. Don't know why, it is like they can smell it on me.

My social life is okay, I have friends and staff, but those relationships are coming up on a decade of development. Sometimes I still feel like I mask heavily infront of them and I am going to be exposed any minute now. I think I am rather good at masking since I can now meet new people and they don't immediately hate me. This took about 24 years to develop (27 now) but it doesn't translate into dating. Dating is an incredibly complex social interaction and the only advantage autistic women have over autistic man is masking, witch is currently for me still to difficult to execute. I personally find dating for women just as hard as for men. Yes, I can have sex everyday if I want to, but only if I am ok with being discussed immediately after. I am not, so I don't.

DivineDaedra · 2022-10-31T09:23:09+00:00

In my experience as an autistic person, the better option (imo) is to avoid dating NT people anyway, or at least any who aren’t prepared to have a relationship with someone who’s autistic.

Faking neurotypicality doesn’t really work in the long term—you will inevitably run into a situation where you simply can’t function the way a NT person does. It’s better to have a partner who already knows about your autism and is prepared to help than try to hide it and just hope for the best, even if it means having fewer relationships overall.

Siukslinis_acc · 2022-10-31T05:59:56+00:00

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Truth_Sellah_Seekah · 2022-10-31T14:05:26+00:00

A practical preponderance of our sub's particularly platitudinous purplepilled posts purportedly posit that pp

you wanted to make that alliteration so badly huh

MistyMaisel · 2022-10-31T16:39:00+00:00

I don't think anyone is underrating this. Having dated an autistic person, I don't think I could do it again. It isn't because I don't think they're good people or honest or even empathetic. (In my experience, they're actually brutally honest to a fault). It's that their ability to read and respond appropriately to social cues is often non-existent or incorrect. And they don't know what to do with the emotions, reactions, and needs of others. And often, they lack for certain elements of a personality like warmth and humor. And their personalities have obsessive and black and white thinking streaks which are hugely annoying to deal with.

This doesn't make them bad people, it just makes it incredibly tiring and difficult to be in an emotionally connected relationship with them. Especially if they stop masking and you start to realize, "Holy hell, this person is basically insane compared to what I find normal, acceptable, and am able to personally deal with." And that isn't what you signed up for when you first got together or could have imagined might be under the hood.

When we're describing what is attractive, we're typically describing requirements to get into a relationship and often forget to include traits vital to maintaining, nourishing, and growing the relationship. (Admittedly, this makes some sense given the brutality with which even our expectations are met). In my experience, those who aren't neurotypical tend to fail in the requirements area due to relatively behaving in an odd manner. And then in the traits vital to maintaining, nourishing, and growing things it really shows.

Does this mean they're doomed? Of course not. They just need someone who is incredibly patient and open to them being absolutely strange and don't mind their relationships feeling like one-sided chores. I also think they need to learn that being yourself does not mean drop the mask, right?

Like, when we tell people to be themselves, we always mean the best version of yourself. If I was talking to a women who had BPD, I wouldn't tell her be herself and mean when you're having a meltdown and acting absolutely deranged. I'm meaning the best version of herself who is in control of her triggers and knows how to take care of herself and not burden others with being understanding or dealing with the oddness. And, I am meaning to be honest about her struggles so the person can decide if they want in on this crazy train, but that they're agreeing ahead of time to do everything they can not to burden their partner.

As for why women struggle less? This is in part the fact men have much lower standards. It's also that last I checked many of the studies on autistic women showed their ability to "fit in" was much higher than that of their male counterparts. So much so that diagnosing autism in girls is much more difficult and even supposedly may need an entirely different diagnostic criteria.

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Gravel_Roads · 2022-10-31T07:21:13+00:00

I think there's a lot of misconceptions around these topics, often due to the language we're taught to use.

A person who is "neuroatypical" can be fun, honest, generous, kind, they can be good leaders and nurturing parents and genuinely admired for their actions. Meanwhile, a person who is "neurotypical" can still be a selfish, unpleasant, rude and embarrassing to be around. How people perceive us are based entirely on our behaviors - if we do things people don't like, people don't like us, regardless of our mental states.

I think it's easier to consider all behavior "neutral" parts of one's personality, until those behaviors become too extreme to function in society and/or accomplish our own goals an desires, at which point they become a disorder.

Ie, I have a lot of bipolar proclivities. I have learned to cope with them, to predict the obstacles it causes me and to avoid the worst inclinations that come from it (like acting on manic thoughts rather than analyzing where the thought comes from). So it doesn't really impact my life (any more), nor does it affect my social life or impede me from living my life. So I do not have "a disorder". Whether or not I am considered neuroatypical is irrelevant.

tl;dr People are uncomfortable around humans that can't control themselves. Acting in unusual ways in public, especially being unable to stop yourself, will impede your ability to navigate social settings. Of which dating, sadly, is included.

Embarrassed-Tune9038 · 2022-10-31T11:07:47+00:00

This is why I think men should be picky as your average woman just to piss women off.

2022-10-31T13:57:19+00:00

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Gilmoregirlin · 2022-10-31T19:16:29+00:00

If what you are saying is that women often overlook men that would be great in a relationship with them because this individuals are neurotypical, I would say the answer is no and here is why. Even if these men are more trustworthy, and have empathy, they lack social skills overall or at least the social skills to attract these women in the first place and that is unattractive to these women. If however a woman approaches you, and she's okay with your lack of social skills, then you would be a decent match. But stating that women who are not attracted to neurotypical men because they are neurotypical is not the case. They are not attracted to them because they lack social skills and no relationship would work between the two of them because they lack social skills, so they are not at all overlooking compatible men, these men are not compatible. The reality is that social skills are essential in every aspect of life.

Upstairs-Rip-604 · 2022-10-31T10:13:15+00:00

The topic of neurotypicality and neurodivergence bothers me. I’m not quite sure how to put it into words in an eloquent way.

calfshrug · 2022-10-31T19:42:13+00:00

What actually defines an autistic person, though?

autistic people TEND to have a different facial phenotype, and for example, autism has been linked to high prenatal testosterone exposure - but in many other examples of scientific research, prenatal testosterone level has been linked to social dominance, sexual prowess, and other positive markers.

Autism, however, is also linked to late age of one or both parents at conception.

Personally, I’ve had people call me autistic on the internet too many times to count, and though I was assessed many times by psychologists, I was never diagnosed as on the spectrum - in fact, I never had heard of autism until I played RuneScape in middle school (age 11-12), so I clearly hadn’t been singled out and name-called as an autistic person before, though people regularly called me timid, weird, quiet, cerebral, or gay.

I think autism is a catch-all for people with different brain structures which often correlate with an advanced age of parent(s) and/or an abnormal androgenic environment, and/or poor brain development due to early life stressors, and or a facial phenotype which is similar to people with the above.

I’ve known an autistic, 6’ tall guy with a babyface and normal cognitive ability whose facial features more resembled those of a person with a combination of fetal syndrome and Down’s Syndrome, yet he was diagnosed strictly as ASD and OCD.

TLDR, I think that autism is too broad of a basket term, at least in the modern vernacular

rsvpxo · 2022-10-31T07:31:54+00:00

The terms neurodivergent and neurotypical are used regularly but the emphasis is almost always on autistic people.

I am as neurodivergent as it gets, I literally have a condition with psychotic symptoms.

I have friends with long-term girlfriends I would bet the farm are BPD.

I personally have no problem when I stay in my league, and often even socialize my way out of it.

I wonder if the results you are referencing have anything to do with the fact men are expected to approach. Autistic women would by extension avoid that added hurdle for the most part.

I have the suspicion a few women I've asked out in the past were on the spectrum. They did misread the situation but I did try lol

Social skills and confidence can be learned and improved by most people, we just need to try and some folks need extra help.

I have literally just deluded myself into being confident and social, and choose to try and ignore the lingering anxieties and paranoia.

techr0nin · 2022-10-31T12:03:41+00:00

Many traits can be detrimental to a man’s dating success — height, face, weight, status, wealth, sociality, so forth. If you isolate any of those factors I would bet all my money that below-average men in any of those traits will also net below-average results. The only reason neuro-typicality would be under-rated is due to the fact that you can’t immediately visually identify it, which already make you more fortunate than the other undesirable traits.

Women are more risk averse and eugencists by nature, and autism is 80% hereditary. It’s no different from being rejected by any other physical traits.

Aubrey_D_Graham · 2022-10-31T08:13:35+00:00

Dark triad men are not neurotypical, and they can do well.

happy-doofus · 2022-10-31T16:15:14+00:00

I gave up on neurotypical folks. Primarily because I discovered they're pretty boring and unthoughtful. I'd never consider dating one, ever. She'd have to at least have ADHD.

Also gave up on trying to fit in with them. The Nation of Islam has a criticism of the way black folks pursued integration with racists when they should've been building up their own communities instead. I agree with this wholeheartedly for autistics.

Don't learn to integrate with people who aren't worth integration. Love yourselves, you're better than the people who dislike you in many respects. Harder lives make harder people. You're a rock compared to most.

KayRay1994 · 2022-11-01T03:35:14+00:00

As a man who is autistic and has ADHD, while yes - it is def a harder game I also find that the bonds I tend to build are more real and meaningful. Although ultimately, I find that learning to not necessarily mask, but rather, tailor yourself to your setting also helps a lot - you’re still you, but you’re presenting a part of yourself that’s more appropriate for a given situation. But also, if you’re doing something you don’t enjoy (for me its clubbing, for example), don’t do it. It’ll be obvious to yourself and everyone else that this is the last place you wanna be.

So yeah, work on yourself, try to be the best version of you that you can be and own that neurodivergancy, i’ve found that its started to work with me. Oh, and also, this goes without saying - try to surround yourself with neurodivergant people, especially neurodivergant women - odds are they’re more likely to click with you than neurotypical women + they’ll be more understanding to how you function

GhostofCamus · 2022-10-31T07:33:26+00:00

i think autism is a blessing bc it allows u to see the world in ways we cannot. the world may be built on neurodivergent ppl. as for dating try being yourself. as long as u arent short u should do fine. the dating market has yet to adapt to short ppl but its actively adapting to ppl with mental troubles. keep at it and treat ur woman with respect and ur time will come

DrinkItInMan11 · 2022-10-31T07:06:26+00:00

I feel it all comes down to what the neuro divergence is, if it's something like autism then yeah you'll probably have a harder time, whereas something like ADHD probably wouldn't effect things too much, a lot of people I know with ADHD are in relationships.

Jonny2266 · 2022-10-31T23:49:17+00:00

Not so fast. Studies also show that autistic men are just as empathetic as their NT counterparts [7] on top of lying less frequently overall and lying less adeptly [8].

This doesn't appear true even according to the cited study:

The results showed that the empathy impairment evident in individuals with ASCs is component specific; that is, trait-cognitive empathy, trait-empathic concern, state-cognitive empathy, and state-empathic concern are impaired, whereas state-empathic accuracy remains intact, and trait-empathic accuracy is superior to the trait-empathic accuracy in neurotypical individuals.

Autistic individuals often suffer impairment in specific components empathy, including those pertinent to socializing and reading and responding to social cues. After all, a standard empathy test is interpreting facial expressions which is something people with autism can have difficulty doing. So it's unfortunate to have this trait hamper social and romantic success.

Latter_Adagio8945 · 2022-11-01T04:09:47+00:00

Edit: curious. Why the downvotes? Is it because I sounded like I was bragging and putting down certain women I’ve dated?

This is a good post. But I’ll add I’m on the spectrum and have been dating a girl in a relationship that is open for me for over two years. She flies out to see me since I’ve moved. Buys me gifts and I have a body count of over twenty

But……….I’m good looking (but only around 5’10) and I definitely get rejected a lot. But oddly enough probably more by men

And plenty of girls are turned off I also generally have to date women who are older than me or less attractive, although I don’t really date many straight ugly girls. But overall these are trends you see with NT guys these days too

2022-10-31T13:14:27+00:00

When you put it like that i'm doing extraordinarily well

OwOFemboyUwU · 2022-11-01T15:34:28+00:00

I don’t think it’s underrated. Everybody recognizes it’s bad - schizophrenia followed by autism are by themselves each the two worst traits one can have as a man for the dating market. It’s not discussed because that’s not the reason most struggling men are struggling.

AidsVictim · 2022-10-31T16:33:37+00:00

I agree that the best thing for most "neuro divergent" men is to simply get better at aping "neuro typical" men through exposure (i.e. socializing outside ND groups).

However there is a lot of questionable claims of being actually autistic coming from people that are simply socially awkward, anxious, eccentric, or have other psychological problems diagnosed incorrectly. I suspect if you put a lot of these people in normal social environments before electronics existed they would be considered more or less normal, or at least not having a "disability".

The original diagnosis for "autism" was someone who had major developmental social/mental problems to the point they were often non verbal, couldn't hold jobs, required guardian supervision etc. Now you have people conflating it with people who are simply somewhat asocial or socially anxious, or played too many videogames growing up, or are just eccentric in some fashion.

-AvatarAang- · 2023-02-01T17:15:58+00:00

Do you think there are any neurotypical women who find autistic boys cute?

Like, they find his autistic behaviors endearing and adorable, such as seeing him become flustered in social settings when he doesn't know what to do and kind of just freezes in place while thinking of his next move. A girl in highschool seemingly gave me a warm laugh when the above happened to me while I was talking to her and her friend at school: the conversation had ended but I didn't know how to gracefully exit it, so I was staring at the floor for a few seconds and then just started slowly turning around, which made one of the girls (the one I knew better) start giggling. I don't think she was making fun of me though, because we were friends and would text and would talk to eachother in other settings.

In general, I feel like I've received a lot of "sympathetic" looks from women throughout my life - an expression that looks like a mix between "pity" and "amusement". As if they can see that something about me is "off", but rather than be off-put by it they actually find it somewhat endearing. It's a smile, but rather than an "inviting" one, it's a smile that either signals sympathy or appears to be mocking me. Maybe the "sympathy" reading is just my own optimistic take on it, because I'd much rather believe that narrative than the idea that they were repulsed by me. And given that my ability to read people's faces is impaired to begin with, it wouldn't be wise to trust my own interpretation of the facial expressions that I'm receiving from women. I'm not sure how to respond to this look that I frequently receive - does it mean the woman thinks I'm sweet and would be okay with me talking to her, or does it mean that she thinks I'm weird and doesn't want me to interact with her? I have no clue. Hopefully reading books on facial expressions will help solve this mystery for good.

Can anyone chime in?

Title	The importance of male neurotypicality is underrated in dating
Author	Significant_Lake2986
Upvotes	106
Comments	192
Date	October 31, 2022 5:45 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yi23v4/the_importance_of_male_neurotypicality_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-importance-of-male-neurotypicality-is.1137611 https://theredarchive.com/post/1137611