The reason for a decline in social cohesion and relationships in general is due to a collapse in third places.

MetaCognitio · 2022-10-14T18:03:23+00:00

I think this is the primary factor in a lot of social issues. In dating, it affects women less because men will still approach so women have options but it affects the quality of men they get. Without social filters to validate a man’s character, the chance to really feel a guy out they are left taking risks on guys that approach because they think the woman is hot. He may just be confident or he may be someone that doesn’t respect social boundaries.

For men, they relied on these social networks to form relationships. It is just abnormal for most guys to approach a woman they don’t know. It is something that makes them extremely anxious. I think most would be way more comfortable asking a woman out they know in some regard.

These real social networks also keep people in line. You can’t ghost or treat people like crap when the people that know you will find out about it.

Lastly, the lack of community is why so many men are drifting away from society. Without bonds to a community, many men become isolated and can drift away. People don’t really take care of men, or check up on them.

Without a community, men can become very isolated (exacerbated by their perpetual singleness) and have no mentors to help them when they are struggling in life (men sometimes need older men to help them).

An isolated man trying to reach out can continually try to be part of social circles but just be forgotten about unless they are useful in some way.

Women fair better. Both men and women (especially) make more of an effort to make sure women are okay and accounted for.

There is a really high number of men that die without anyone to attend their funeral because they don’t have any friends (likely they do but they don’t notice their friend is missing).

InitialEnthusiasm317 · 2022-10-14T16:46:31+00:00

I have to say, this is probably the first time I read a post on this sub that's actually worth diving into and has good arguments. Really interesting points made in the video, that I want to examine further. Would love to have a discussion about it. Thank you for sharing this!

EaglePill · 2022-10-14T16:59:35+00:00

I agree with the tweet. Car-centric urban planning is probably the biggest factor causing the decline in third places. There's too much inertia involved with getting home after a long day of work that inhibits people from driving out into traffic again to meet up with pre-existing friends they can just chat with online, let alone making new friends. The decline in social cohesion is due largely to the decline in third places, but also the pulling force of technology.

Also attending activities like yoga where women congregate is tricky for guys because a lot of those are spaces where women look forward to unwinding, so hitting on her can make her feel like she has no easy exit strategy short of giving up her favorite class and having to find a new one.

In that way cold/lukewarm approaches are actually better than potentially "trapping" women you meet in activities or small social groups. Unless she's very casual about the hobby and could easily give it up, or the group is big enough where you can just disappear and be forgotten if things get awkward.

ThisBoringLife · 2022-10-14T18:23:40+00:00

It is a big thing.

I'd say even in major cities, unless you happen to be relatively close to a bar/club, you'd be stuck having a sizable commute to and from those places, which disincentivizes you to go.

tinasnow-poty · 2022-10-14T18:13:55+00:00

Good points. The uk doesn’t have quite the same problems as the us in terms of walkability, unless you live in cunch, but winter means everyone stays in their homes from 5pm and don’t hang out as much. When I lived in Spain i noticed how closely connected literally everybody was, it’s impossible to be lonely when there are 172828 cafes just outside your house that you can sit and have a coffee with your neighbours at, plus everyone lives in flats and are close with neighbours. I think this is kinda why inceldom and social isolation is more a problem in the US and rising in the UK, because lots of other countries have huge cafe cultures and community based lifestyle

ConvolutedMaze · 2022-10-14T17:23:38+00:00

Definitely agree to an extent, with church being one of the most blatant examples. Dating and getting married, or having a very specific reason not to, is practically embedded in Christianity as well as other conservative cultural traditions. Of the handful of the people I knew getting engaged and married fresh out of undergrad (if not already married), 100% were religious.

The main thing I take issue with here is the idea that lack of spaces to socialize is the primary cause of the changes we're seeing. People can socialize ad infinitum, without the lingering cultural pressure to actively pursue serious relationships/marriage a lot of those are just going to end up platonic or casual.

Am I saying the solution is to become religious, or push the culture in a more conservative direction? No. I think the more realistic one is to stop making romantic relationships a point of obsession for a culture that no longer revolves around facilitating them. Plenty of people are going to fall in love and maybe go on to get married at some point. Plenty of people won't. It depends on the beliefs and priorities of any given individual as well as those who surround them. Let's just be realistic about this instead of pushing love/romance as the end-all of life that's guaranteed to fall in your lap at the right time if you do the right things.

Flightlessbirbz · 2022-10-14T19:31:11+00:00

Between all the “women are too picky!” and “no men today are just trash!” posts, I feel like what he’s talking about is the true main cause behind why dating is difficult and people are more lonely nowadays. And why teetotalers will struggle - because bars are the only readily-available, mixed-gender third places left. As for men joining mostly female spaces, it kind of depends. I’d say you have to have some level of interest in the activity and be willing to make friends with the women, don’t come in and start hitting on them because that’ll be awkward. But the more women you know the more likely they’ll introduce you to single friends.

Overall, I think we need to acknowledge how things have changed, but not roll over and give up on socializing. It’s still very possible, just takes effort that it didn’t used to take.

badsign12 · 2022-10-14T19:27:19+00:00

Good discussion. I have two points that I believe are overlooked parts of the general thesis put forth.

The first is that along with a decline in church membership, there's a steeper decline in small institutions that especially served men. Things like Knights of Columbus, which is catholic, but also service clubs like the Elks or Masons have declined very steeply. Same with trade union membership. And 50 years ago men from 20 to 80 were far more likely to have served in the military. These are all places where friendships and connections formed, and while there were women's service clubs, they never existed on the scale they did for men, and women have always seemed better able to socialize for the sake of socializing.

To expand on the 3rd places idea, I think men need an activity (a second reason) to socialize around. It's like we need something in our hands, be that a basketball, a cue stick, a golf club, a wrench, or a drink. Young men in particular don't do those activities much anymore.

The other sort of lost point is that many people stay single longer and spend a larger portion of their adult lives single. 50 years ago people were far more likely to marry in their young to mid 20s, and to someone they met at college or at one of those 3rd places while college aged for people who didn't do college. This makes 3rd places or 2nd reasons for socializing even more important at a point when those things are declining.

As an aside, many men 50 years who were only so-so at dating got married or in a serious enough relationship to cohabitate by 25 or earlier. Now when some men and many women are less willing to be tied down in their 20s those men, who for whatever reason aren't especially good at the presentation and image curating that have always been a part of dating, have to do those challenging things longer. Some of these men would have struggled socially in any era, but some who might have been happily relationshipped up for years by their 30th birthday are now feeling left out and become bitter and frustrated. For every 10 men who are or feel socially and sexually passed by at 30 now, 3 or 4 of them would have escaped that fate when early serious relationships were more in vogue.

Edit: A word

stats135 · 2022-10-14T17:43:42+00:00

The general idea of the loss of the third places as a cause of social decline is a good argument. The ideas that this can be traced back to "America evil" isn't. Look at Hong Kong or Tokyo. They are far from car centric. They never had a Christian root to lose. Yet they have an even higher loneliness crisis than here in America.

What these countries do have in common is radical feminism. Because in reality, we still have these "third places" they just don't act like it anymore. The cafes and parks are still there. Its just that it is now no longer acceptable to hit on a woman while she is there. The places still exists, but it is now no longer acceptable to build good (in the pillosphere context - sexual) relationships there.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-10-14T22:25:22+00:00

In terms of actual mating results, I'm finding it harder to see the causation here. IF something like the more dystopian arguments made about gender relations made here is happening, and middle and lower-tier SMV women are increasingly choosing singlehood over their available male options, how would more third places really change this? I get the argument about social cohesion and local community, but I'd like help following the logic on gender pairing.

One possibility is indirect. With more casual third places and a more developed local, geographic community, perhaps 'society' has more meat to it. And with a more developed society, you are able to exert more social incentive or even pressure to marry or have kids, if that is what the community chooses.

Another possibility is that if there are more third places to anchor a local community, this will then allow for other geographically-based community features to exist, from bands to choirs to Kiwanis Clubs to charities or whatever. I've heard it argued that when there was a stronger local and geographic community, men had more 'places to shine' creating more diverse local status hierarchies for men to compete in. This allowed more men to appeal to women's hypergamy by being an all star in other ways than through income or work status.

Anyways, I'm not sure about the above arguments. Just things I remember. But the video seems lacking in content about the POSSIBLE male/female pairing issues usually discussed on PPD. Would appreciate any thoughts on how to better fill in the causation.

Few_Ratio5835 · 2022-10-15T04:23:46+00:00

usually when women have a problem... its societies fault. When men have a problem its the individual's fault

domdomdom333 · 2022-10-14T18:50:40+00:00

The correlation between poor social mobility and relationship, sex life and so on success has been long documented and linked.

But it should be the opposite. Because you can't change your social status you should concentrate as much as you can on the individual part. But the participation in more women heavy activities is the wrong treatment to the right diagnosis.

Liberated_Asexual · 2022-10-15T03:26:03+00:00

This plus putting people on house arrest for almost two years definitely was the dagger.

RIPGeorgeHarrison · 2022-10-14T19:01:04+00:00

This is something I’ve said a few times though more to the aspect of of you wanted to be social you had to meet people IRL and couldn’t use the internet as a surrogate for this kind of connection. In fact the way society was meant you had to be somewhat socially inclined to survive. If you were lacking social skills you learned them through trial and error whether you wanted to give up or not.

Redlimetree · 2022-10-15T04:41:53+00:00

Yes I agree.

The last year I've been increasing my use of the available third places around me. I definitely notice the difference in sense of belonging to a community. It greatly increases my rates of chance encounters and this helps organically build friendships and connections. Overall it has made me happier.

KikiYuyu · 2022-10-15T08:48:55+00:00

Advice isn't blaming, it's just advice.

AidsVictim · 2022-10-15T06:12:19+00:00

He mentions that there are a bunch of trends causing falling socialization but seems over focused on cars and suburbanization. Sure these are a problem to an extent but I've noticed it becomes hyperfocused by certain modes of thought/ideologies because it's convenient to believe the multitude of social problems that arrived parallel with modernism can be solved with straightforward material solutions (i.e. constructing community centers or something) and better bureaucratic planning.

It also lacks a lot of context - most Americans never lived in or near urban centers where foot traffic predominated and there is a sort of idealized communal nucleus - in more negative historical views urban centers were always regarded as innately alienating and chaotic places long before the rise of the modern American cities. Americans that lived in rural or semi rural areas (i.e. the majority until the last 30-40 years when these trends began snowballing) were not going down mainstreet everyday sitting in cafes and chatting with dozens of neighbours or whatever. Social networks revolved around immediate family, small groups of neighboring families, and weekly communal ritual (usually churches, dances/parties, occasional town functions etc). These people managed to build much stronger social networks even though they were technically not any more "efficient" in use of space than suburbs (getting into town was never a 10 minute walk for the vast majority of people).

These trends are also common pretty much globally, even in many places that retain their historical "walkability" and "third places".

Interesting that Putnam is increasingly cited by these types of thinkers but they leave out quite a lot that wouldn't be digestible to their audience - especially his views on increasingly heterogenous societies for obvious reasons.

GridReXX · 2022-10-15T12:08:06+00:00

The advice isn’t “lazy.” As it’s true hence the tweet you just linked.

Perhaps the OP should ask why some have managed to maintain social cohesion despite the decline in third spaces and others have not.

There’s systems and dynamics and then there’s genetics and cognition.

But yes I too saw his tweet and agree with his analysis as it’s been the same thing I’ve been saying for yearssss lol.

_demidevil_ · 2022-10-15T17:06:12+00:00

Definitely the vibe I’m picking up from this sub is that not enough men are out and about in the real world, it’s mostly focused on dating apps as though they are just another video game or something, so I absolutely agree. The city I live in is big and I think we are probably very lucky for 3rd spaces. Especially night life. USA is weird how you have to drive everywhere. Very odd. I don’t even own a car, it’s a short walk to the bus stop and buses come every few minutes. I can walk to shops and supermarkets from my house. In USA I’ve always been to places where you have to drive to go to the nearest shop. It’s strange.

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2022-10-14T17:29:19+00:00

I’ve never lived in a small town so I do think I have the privilege of not knowing what it’s like to not have anywhere to go to socialize on a Friday night. I honestly can’t even imagine that life. It does seem incredibly isolating.

gate18 · 2022-10-14T22:20:01+00:00

In other words capitalism.

This concept isn't new. Those community mam-and-pap shops close town because of competition from big business

Libraries and leisure centers close down for lack of government investments.

People are encouraged to improve the self (in order to be good employees to jobs that don't satisfy them) instead of cultivating friendships outside it.

This affects the way people vote, the way they think about politics, and the way they think about each other.

Even in this sub, although everyone has ugly to average-looking family members and friends that are in happy relationships, they still describe the dating situation from the perspective of transaction.

When you feel alone, you either have the pharmaceutical industry (wanting your money) or the internet gurus (wanting your money, or your political allegiance)

Even in school. Recently I read a few articles saying boys have behind compared to girls (which is true) and the solution is to keep boys one year out of school.

Restructuring the education system isn't in the table. No, it would take money from the wrong hands to change the cookie-cutter education system. It's easier to either blame evolution or feminazis. And meanwhile, boys are left behind.

TATA456alawaife · 2022-10-14T17:04:46+00:00

I’m not a big believer in sex integrated spaces. Men and women need activities that are specifically for them. There’s nothing worse than women showing up to an all mens pick up game of whatever and the men have to slow it down or play it easier. I can’t imagine it’s very fun for women either when a dude shows up at yoga.

SmarmyPapsmears · 2022-10-14T17:57:22+00:00

Interesting watch

JoeRMD77 · 2022-10-14T18:25:57+00:00

Yep, so if you're a man then you need to find every way you can to increase your income to stand out from the rest of these broke guys.

That's what I'm doing and it's paying off. When I'm not working for money, I'm working on women and that's all my focus is.

My lonely life of smoking weed and video games is over, replaced with chicks wondering where I'm taking them this weekend.

Pastakingfifth · 2022-10-14T18:45:47+00:00

Most of the problems described here are rooted in deep socioeconomic conditions outside of our control and shouldn't be blamed solely on the individual.

You're exactly right but I don't know what the conclusion is supposed to be after that. If I'm partly fucked for reasons outside my control it's great to understand that and the exact implications that come from it but then I still have to do the work and get what I want. I feel like a lot of guys on Reddit post a lot of stuff and expect people to relieve them of responsability.

unfettered_logic · 2022-10-14T22:42:26+00:00

If you get a chance to read bowling alone it’s a great book.

Conscious_Ad_6572 · 2022-10-15T03:19:42+00:00

Yup super important

American approach is shit

Quiet-Lie-219 · 2022-10-15T12:53:49+00:00

It’s a social problem that we can all either contribute to solving by providing each other with grace, understanding and respect, or perpetuate by refusing to understand the other side, blaming each other for why we’re unfulfilled, and taking it out on strangers for no reason. Men need to be less toxic, women need to be more open to possibility, probably.

2022-10-16T09:31:50+00:00

It's not just the suburbs. Dating sucks even in big cities because people stay within their bubbles by default. In India, I have experienced largely the same problems that other people in this sub experience even though everything is dense here in terms of living due to over population.

In India, there isn't a "let's go out culture" which basically kills the third place. You are expected to marry within your community in an arranged marriage which kills most incentive to date. Most women are reluctant to talk to unknown men due to rampant crime and general societal mistrust.

2022-10-14T18:58:38+00:00

I am an American living in Morocco with an extremely prolific cafe scene, so you'd think we don't have this problem. But, the "third places" are almost exclusively for men. Cafes are for men to escape the house, drink coffee, chat, and smoke cigarettes outside of the home. Women are not welcome or even allowed in 99% of these cafes and are expected to socialize in the home, the hammam among other women, or not at all. Even if a woman does make an attempt to attend them, she's leered at or comments are made about her not being welcome. So they simply don't bother.

Third places are cool, but to act like they'd immediately solve a bunch of sociological and psychological problems remains to be seen. Societies tend to self-segregate regardless.

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prizefighterstudent · 2022-10-14T21:02:02+00:00

Car culture has a lot to do with this, and the rise of big box monopolies in every major entertainment sector. Licensing and taxes for small business is also a hellscape in many places in the West -- let people set up shop where they want. This doesn't discount the power of demographics and culture, but it's a start.

TheSandNinja · 2022-10-14T22:03:15+00:00

An actual leftist perspective that makes sense? Finally.

InitialEnthusiasm317 · 2022-10-14T16:41:20+00:00

Ion know , I don’t think that’s that accurate . Third places are still here and thriving

Lift_and_Lurk · 2022-10-14T16:33:17+00:00

“It’s not my fault it got harder!” Ok. So it’s harder. So what are you going to do about it? Cause easy or hard- you want what you want. So what’s the gameplan?

bunnakay · 2022-10-14T19:04:34+00:00

I agree with his points overall, but I don't see what this has to do with dating. A healthy social circle is not restricted to one gender, nor is it stagnant.

catniagara · 2022-10-14T20:12:14+00:00

I think people are very often the victims of their own thinking.

briiiana1122 · 2022-10-14T21:58:39+00:00

Lmao dance therapy? Ok.

The advice is to join some social version of the thing you enjoy (an ultimate frisbee team or a wine tasting club or whatever the thing you like is) not creep in on things you think women will like to try and date them.
When that’s the interpretation of the advice then ya, the individual is the one that’s the problem.

Da_Famous_Anus · 2022-10-14T22:27:20+00:00

I love it when the source is a tweet.

Apprehensive_Cut_146 · 2022-10-15T08:19:13+00:00

What was going through that man’s mind when he attempted pulling a stache? He looks bad

SincereJustice · 2022-10-16T01:04:02+00:00

Is this “get a goddam social circle” again?

I don’t see men here being open to that

Unhappy-Slice-5098 · 2022-10-17T02:45:26+00:00

Good to see this being discussed here. Car-centric zoning is definitely one of the biggest issues causing this. There's always something to do and see in a massive downtown core that you cannot get when you have to drive everywhere. Can't meet anyone in suburbia organically unless they're your neighbours. The suburban dream is a failure IMO

Here's the other reason: we are being worked to death. We are so damn productive and that's the new normal. The bar keeps getting raised and we keep working like dogs to meet it. No time to make babies or settle down

gopherish · 2022-10-28T07:19:39+00:00

This is a consequence of other, more basic changes, which the speaker actually mentioned: technology. Technology, especially the automobile, has shaped our communities into what they are today.

Also things like a common, single national currency, but that’s another topic.

Title	The reason for a decline in social cohesion and relationships in general is due to a collapse in third places.
Author	ConvolutedMaze
Upvotes	230
Comments	196
Date	October 14, 2022 4:18 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/y3y9eo/the_reason_for_a_decline_in_social_cohesion_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-reason-for-a-decline-in-social-cohesion-and.1135688 https://theredarchive.com/post/1135688