The reason that the disparity in sexual privilege between men and women is so obfuscated not because there's any real doubt about it, but because of the solutions it implies

RentedPineapple · 2022-07-08T21:33:53+00:00

I’ve been thinking about the lack of opportunities for men and women to mingle in a fun setting that encourages flirting while maintaining everyone’s comfort level. I used to attend ceilis (huge Celtic social dance) and realized how useful this must have been in society for centuries. Live music, dancing in smaller groups of 6-12 or the entire room, holding hands, linking arms and laughing. It was nice to get paired up with someone cute for a dance and since the whole crowd was rotating everyone got to interact with everyone else. No one was grinding on you, trying to get your number, and you could smile and introduce yourself with no obligation beyond that. If two people were interested in pursuing something beyond dancing they could. It was a fun, no pressure way to get men and women mingling and flirting. You got the oxytocin warm fuzzy feeling from holding hands and laughing with others. I think more communities would benefit from this sort of thing.

mrcs84usn · 2022-07-08T17:21:25+00:00

One heuristic from TRP that I’ve come to appreciate more and more from reading PPD threads:

“Women don’t understand your problems, and they don’t give a shit either”

cuckedalt · 2022-07-08T16:51:54+00:00

The NYT column where they actually said the thing

There is an alternative, conservative response, of course — namely, that our widespread isolation and unhappiness and sterility might be dealt with by reviving or adapting older ideas about the virtues of monogamy and chastity and permanence and the special respect owed to the celibate.

empresa_josefina · 2022-07-09T00:50:22+00:00

First we need to stress, women truly don’t care.

Putting that aside, there’s the implication that any inconvenience to women, no matter how minor, is a non-starter if we’re talking about dating. I’ve suggested that dating apps eliminate height filters because it creates anchoring around 6ft, and guys end up lying if they are 5’10”. Women will say that goes too far because it infringes on their rights.

It’s similar to how objectivists respond to government policy. Any taxation is theft no matter what the money might be spent on.

Until inconveniencing women’s imperative is considered acceptable, no solutions can be discussed whether good or bad. There are plenty of non-toxic “solutions” to the incel “problem” such as government-funded voluntary co-ed cultural events (parades, concerts, etc) which reduce the cost of socialization; vouchers to young people to delink money and socialization (Greece had a program like this); or just go full Japan and create a government sponsored dating app that can be more geared towards relationship formation rather than selling subscriptions.

We could even tax the “haves” by making single people (defined as not cohabitating with a partner) exempt from the upkeep of these programs.

Would some women be inconvenienced because their taxes went up? Yes. Would incels benefit? Yes. Should we ignore any of these solutions? According to PPD, lonely men’s quality of life is slightly above pack animals so apparently yes.

WickedBiscuit · 2022-07-08T17:19:05+00:00

Wouldn’t a natural response to this situation be widespread MGTOW, which in turn would have a reciprocal adjustment in dating strategy by women? All of this not involving state intervention.

JohnnyMnemo · 2022-07-08T21:47:45+00:00

take some kind of action to limit women's freedom

I was with you right up until this point.

There are other things you can do well before you get to that point, such as:

-acknowledgement of the need for better understanding and treatment of men's mental health. Even more encouragement of men's social circles, etc.

-simply removing the concept of "if you don't sleep with many women, you are a low value loser" from the concept of society. In fact, the opposite is actually often the most true--men that do sleep with a great many women are fuckbois, and men that don't have chosen to improve other parts of themselves.

I've heard prominent women both shame men for not having partners, and shame men for having too many partners. Shaming the former for something that is frankly largely outside of their control is problematic; and then shaming men for responding to that shame by learning how to have "too many" partners is just really problematic.

Whomever thought that shaming men by challenging their self-concept of masculinity for having too few partners would work out positively for society should have their head examined.

flakybottom · 2022-07-08T20:02:18+00:00

I have no problem with women not liking me, I'm a loser. Here's what I want to change. Women should have better standards. Even in this era of unprecedented sexual freedom they still choose to shack up with raging misogynists, deadbeats, and abusers in large numbers. Well you might say its their choice, but then they proceed to have children with those shitheads, setting them up for a terrible childhood. Other small stuff too, like not villifying virgin men but thats my main problem.

Kentucky_Supreme · 2022-07-08T18:16:12+00:00

I think societies tried to address these issues a LONG time ago with religions. We're only now coming back full circle.

Pretty much any religion that promoted monogamy and discouraged premarital sex was trying to implement a socialist sexual market place instead of a capitalist one. I guess they figured at least that way men could have their virgin bride and the price of sex with a woman would be very high (lifelong commitment via marriage). I think that was their first attempt at instilling some sort of order to a naturally chaotic and capitalist SMP.

Da_Famous_Anus · 2022-07-08T20:54:16+00:00

I don’t think men are lying about number 5 at all.

Women ask for men to be empathetic and understanding of their problems as well so why can’t men get a simple acknowledgment.

When there’s no acknowledgement, society is basically gaslighting men into believing there’s something wrong with them. It basically says to men - your lived experience is not real.

Acknowledgement as in #5 does not change the situation for most men, but at least they don’t go insane thinking there’s something wrong with them. #5 would help many men in this way.

A lack of #5 actually keeps guys more cynical, closed off from society, and probably more hateful. Think of the public benefit at stake.

It’s interesting that there’s such a hard concerted effort to prevent this from happening.

sacredhighpriestess · 2022-07-09T16:11:38+00:00

What a great post!!

toasterchild · 2022-07-08T17:10:04+00:00

They commonly say things like "enforced monogamy" and "when women are scarce men become violent" then say "no no no i didn't mean that women should be distributed to men. Well then what exactly are we supposed to think you meant by those things? These are people who think you should be punished for not being married or for leaving your marriage. Basically they just want to own you but not say that they own you.

goatismycopilot · 2022-07-08T18:56:30+00:00

In PPD and beyond it comes down to this: most women seriously do not give a shit that some random man cannot or struggles to get casual sex and most men do not give a shit if an average woman struggles to find a serious relationship or marriage.

Marriage and children are often an afterthought for many men. It falls into the " maybe " or " some day" category after they have done whatever it is they want to do banged some chicks or accomplished some predetermined goals.

Except for a minority casual sex is something women try a few times and go yuck or the ones who are proudly high N are damaged somehow. Plus women realize many men will have sex with anybody. Women are never going to value casual sex.

Men are valuing marriage less because the feminists did something and some guy they know paid alimony. Men only valued marriage in the past because they were told they were supposed to and it was the only way to get sex.

There is no way to resolve these fundamental disagreements about the goals of men and women. It won't ever happen.

Prior to feminism being the public face of shit about women that annoyed men, women were disparaged as nags, hysterics, witches, whores. There was not some golden era where men and women existed in a some convergence of harmonic goal setting.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-07-08T17:09:38+00:00

You are 100% correct. That's all what these posts are seeking to accomplish. Women better change their ways...or else! Or else what? I think the implication is that or else sexually unsuccessful men will resort to violence and rape to get what they believe they have been deprived of.

But here is the real crux of the issue. I was debating with someone onone of the threads last night who was convinced that his lack of confidence and self esteem was solely other peoples fault. By extension, him feeling good and happy with himself is also other people's responsibility. That's how the average sexually unsuccessful man thinks as well. It's women's responsibility to find me sexually desirable. I washed my ass and that should be enough. Why should I change or become what women find attractive?

This abdication from responsibility is the true poison. You are black! Hey, it's not your fault that you a creep, it's just that white women are racist. You are Asian! Hey, it's not your fault that you are a nerd afraid of your own shadow, it's white women's fault for wanting 7' men with 15" schlongs. And so on and so forth.

Swapsta · 2022-07-08T19:54:30+00:00

The problem(if you consider it to bs so) is mainly OLD.

If average women can get chances/rolls with attractive or better men in terms of looks and/or socioeconomic condition then simply trying to find one until you land commitment is better than settling down.

MrMathamagician · 2022-07-09T14:30:42+00:00

Society/the state HAS done this. It’s why polygamy is illegal. It’s basically sexual socialism for men but the guy still has to earn his ‘allotment’.

Many (most?) societies throughout history have been polygamous. 8000 years ago one male reproduced for ever 17 women that reproduced. Meaning on avg the top 6% of men had 17 baby mommas and the bottom 94% of men were incels.

Life isn’t fair and men are the expendable sex sadly. This has always been the case. Men must come to terms with this, women don’t care and won’t try too the same way guys ignore/hand waive their privilege.

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/2zj0bv/8000_years_ago_17_women_reproduced_for_every_one/

Slight_Fig5187 · 2022-07-08T17:57:44+00:00

This alleged lack of sex and romance among young men seems to be happening in the US as you repeatedly say here, but not everywhere.

In my southern European country, young men and women alike seem, according to statistics I've posted here many times, to be reasonably active sexually and happy with their lives in that regard. I'm sure other countries, at least in the South of Europe, have similar statistics.

Since it would be far fetched to assume that all men here are tall, fit, muscular, etc, the most reasonable thing to assume is that people here are doing things in a different way that works for them.

And that different way, in my humble opinion, is the way they socialize. A Friday summer night like today, the streets of every town and village here are full of groups of boys and girls, men and women, talking to each other, drinking, having fun, going to dance later maybe, laughing, flirting, etc. A lot of those will end the night with some type of physical or emotional experience: kissing, hooking up, having sex, maybe starting some kind of relationship. Which most probably wouldn't have happened if they had stayed all night behind their screens trying to find a date with some elusive stranger.

PurplePillEric · 2022-07-08T17:02:59+00:00

To address the title's point:

You're on to something. I think there is a knee-jerk reaction that men under 35 have because of the way that we were raised. We get that dopamine hit from finding that a group of people is at a disadvantage because we're used to that being met with some sort of moderator (who in our childhood, was an adult) implementing some new rule to level the playing field.

I've gotten in many heated back-and-forths with frustrated men who are looking for some sort of solution to this apparent problem that dating is so difficult for them and women won't give them a chance. The obvious solution of "do the work to make yourself better" can't possibly be the answer! because when something is unfair, we are so used to having the "authorities that be" level the playing field for us.

As for your take on my homeboy JP

He has been pressed about this before, and his response is always that we don't know what the right solution is, and we're trying to figure it out. He does seem to apparently be taking the easy road (and maybe even hypocritical) road of pointing out the problem without offering much of a solution... But in his defense, no one really knows what the solution is. We're still working on it. And most people don't even understand the problems and the factors that cause them, which is what he's pointing out, so I tend to give him a little bit of leeway there.

Excellent post either way, I'm really excited to see what other people's well thought out responses are.

Selkie-Princess · 2022-07-08T18:51:00+00:00

I mean…I’ve had a man say to my face in a professional environment that (and I’m really boiling this down) in a fair world he’d be able to buy my companionship with enough “good citizen points” or whatever…

Turning_blades · 2022-07-08T17:19:35+00:00

But there is no one "implied solution", and actually there are many solutions discussed which have nothing to do with reducing female freedom. Things such as legalized prostitution, maybe even sex vouchers for guys that are on the worse end. Of course I am talking about willing participants not sex slaves or anything.

There are also small cultural things such as being more honest about sex and attraction with boys in the same way we are with girls. Parents of really short boys can maybe get assistance paying for HGH/hormone treatment if they want.

I'm not putting any of these forward as the best solution, just stating that because some are afraid of a bad solution, we can't even discuss (in the mainstream) any potential good solutions.

The_Meep_Lord · 2022-07-08T18:48:48+00:00

I always find these debates funny for the gender bent equivalent of oppression is accepted.

Most notably that men are forced to help raise kids, fight in wars for the country and take care of wives post divorce.

Society is all about freedom and autonomy until it comes to men, then it backpedals to forcing us to “do the right thing for the greater good.”

Unfairness is okay until it comes to women, then all of a sudden it needs to be fixed for the greater good.

Ofc, this is morally okay for society cannot afford to pay for all of these children.

And just watch society backpedal women’s rights as the need for more children grows.

The reason why monogamy is the norm is for other sexual systems decay with time. It butterflies out and kills cultures. Even polygamous cultures are set up so monogamy is the norm.

We could create better systems, but we see men as disposable objects so those are never considered.

caption291 · 2022-07-08T19:05:10+00:00

Functionally speaking you should you should be starting any argument from reality and building up to a conclusion. Not starting from the conclusion and walking backwards to what you want to be true. That is far far more dishonest than the stopshort strategy and ironically also why the stopshort strategy exists.

take some kind of action to limit women's freedom in order to rectify an unfair and unjust situation and ultimately try and redistribute this important thing (Female love, sexual attraction and companionship) more evenly.

I don't think that's as obvious of a conclusion as you think it is. You don't have to remove women's freedom to achieve similar results. You just have to convince women that they are doing something that's morally questionable and the fact that it's natural is not an excuse.

You don't need to take away a kid's ability to be violent against other kids...you can just convince him that he shouldn't be even if it's what his lizard brain is telling him is the easiest solution to the problem.

Or you have to convince men that women aren't all that...and that means all the individually small but collectively gigantic privileges that women get for being women would slowly be erroded away. Women fear their privileges being taken away way more than their freedom being taken away. Most women just don't understand the difference between the two.

Gari_305 · 2022-07-08T18:42:53+00:00

Long post which basically means the 80/20 rule exists but it is unsustainable for society to continue thus women are rightly scared that they'll be forced to be with someone they're not attracted to for the betterment of said society.

This is why women will get mad and men will be somewhat content should society (read government) steps in and redistributes attraction.

Also we're seeing this playout somewhat via the abortion ban in which by default women will lose their SMV due to becoming single mothers in which the average male has a slight chance in getting some if he wanted it badly enough.

Welcome to the redpill

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-07-08T21:23:24+00:00

So here's what I don't get, who are these straight women dating and marrying? Is it not men? So what is the real complaint here? Is sexual privilege just code for: "I personally don't get to have as much sex as I want"? Is it men feeling they are not getting the women of a certain attractiveness they feel entitled to?

Because are companionship, romance, and sex unfairly "distributed"? What is fair? Who decides what is fair? Who has decided things are unfair? Why are they the arbiter of fairness? Someone just not getting what they want? What they feel entitled to? I'll be honest the idea of companionship, romance, and sex being "distributed" is disturbing.

The idea that love, sex and companionship aren't based on "virtue" is an odd idea that dating is a sort of objective meritocracy, rather than individual and subjective criteria. "I have enough good boy points therefore I should receive this caliber of woman."

There are so many novels written about women wishing to marry for love, in a way that seems as though they're asking for something impossible. It is possible now but men seem very upset about this. Which I find odd.

zoloftabuser · 2022-07-08T17:51:14+00:00

I can see where you’re coming from, and props to you for contributing with a well-constructed post. Funny enough, some of them didn’t even realize this until you mentioned it.

As we can already see, there is simply no nuance within the comments of those who agree. There is no middle ground where chastity and commitment is sought out much sooner with greater emphasis upon it.

I actually find it to be selfish for the older women here to be agreeing to uphold the status quo, instead of looking for a middle ground where societal norms are adjusted for a happier society. I’d go as far as to say that they don’t care for the younger generation at all: their nieces/nephews/grandchildren, if they think society is headed on the right path. The current approach currently isn’t working, and surely there’s something that can be done to yield better results for society as a whole.

sedivy94 · 2022-07-09T06:46:32+00:00

The crux of the debate is not whether or not sexless men are implying female sexual activity should be regulated by the state. By that logic, illustrating examples of white privilege or male privilege heavily implies that those groups should also be regulated by the state. We might as well stop writing and speaking altogether to shield the world from our terrible, terrible observations and experiences. Perhaps you are projecting your fear of the authoritarian state onto men at a time in history when faith in institutions are at an all-time low.

The problem is that sex and romance in general, on both sides, is adulterated and unhinged. Enabled and amplified by the normalization of hookup culture, online dating, polyamory, and divorce. Culture loses grip as natural competitive forces take hold. It’s almost, like, monogamy and sexual conservatism, like, work. Or something. Crazy, right? I suggest we tax sex and criminalize infidelity. Just kidding. The joke is that there is no proposed solution. How do you un-burn a match? Or un-bake a loaf a bread? I have no idea. But if you find out, give me a holler.

Big_Two5636 · 2022-07-09T20:33:17+00:00

This is my all time favorite PPD post. Thanks for putting so much thought into it.

Plopolok · 2022-07-10T12:33:13+00:00

You could frame this in the symmetrically opposite way: when the only solution that people can conceive to fix a problem is unpalatable, they refuse to even acknowledge the problem. And this is a bad mental habit, you should always look at the world with open eyes. The more you understand something, the better chances you have of conceiving ways to fix it. And even if nothing can be done, at least you have the intellectual "closure" of knowing why it's so, which helps to cope with it.

There are potential ways to alleviate the sexlessness problem which don't require enslaving women: less taxes on childless people, better acceptance of prostitution/courtesanship and of male homosexuality, intentionally changing the gender ratio, ...

AelfredRex · 2022-07-08T18:52:46+00:00

Lest we forget....

Forcing women to sleep with men they don't want to sleep with is called rape.

WYenginerdWY · 2022-07-08T19:42:01+00:00

There's a heavy implication out there, even if it's unsaid, that all these premises ultimately lead to a conclusion whereby society, the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some kind of action to limit women's freedom in order to rectify an unfair and unjust situation and ultimately try and redistribute this important thing (Female love, sexual attraction and companionship) more evenly.

There's no fucking "implication". Different types of manosphere group's have come right out and said this is the conclusion. Incels want to put women in camps. I've seen proposals here for government restricted dating to by SMV. Tradcons, Christian redpillers, antifeminists and some MGTOW-ERS are open about the fact that they think women in the workforce was a bad idea and that women should have their economic freedom constrained to give men a leg up in the dating market and force us to "just pick one already" or starve. Every manosphere subreddit I've visited (here, redpill, married/Christian redpill, WAATGM, antifeminists, MGTOW, etc) has hosted some sort of version of "women have too many privileges and if we just take them away, men will be happy again".

It's not at all fucking subtle.

I don't know why you flagged this as "cmv", but if the argument is "it's an implication" allow me to inform you that it most definitely is not. It's a feature.

Raileyx · 2022-07-08T17:15:21+00:00

"The debate then shifts to women then saying words to the effect of "So what? Sorry. I can't make myself attracted to what I'm not attracted to. Yes, maybe we are only attracted to a fairly small subset of men and yes, this does mean a lot of genuinely good, kind and honest men among the male population will end up disappointed*, but attraction isn't something that can be controlled. Sorry. I understand its tough but well....? sorry..." (This is a reasonable response by the way)."*

The most incorrect assumption is that women are only attracted to a small subset of men. This is evidently not true. More than 50% of all people are in committed relationships. This already implies that there was mutual attraction at some point, else the relationship most likely wouldn't have started in the first place.

Of those that aren't, most have had relationships in the past. Usually multiple. Again, implying that people were attracted to them at some point in time. Clearly, women are attracted to a variety of men. If they weren't, most men would be single for life. They aren't. Clearly. The average number of sexual partners is somewhere around 7. And before you start talking about how Chads fuck with that number, the lower percentiles still have higher numbers than you think. Virgins are pretty rare past the age of 30.

This is reality. What's not reality is basing your views on how attraction works on one shaky study that looked at who women swiped right on, on tinder and then saying that this is proof how women only want a small percentage of men. Women are attracted to a wide range of men, not just to a small subset.

Incorrect assumptions -> (usually) incorrect conclusions.

That's the case for this thread as well. You don't have a realistic view on reality.

TastyCucurbits · 2022-07-08T17:09:34+00:00

No, this is not the crux of the 'debate.' The crux is that your conclusion is a classic example of Hume's Guillotine: confusing is for ought.

It actually makes no difference if romance and companionship are really important things. How does it follow that those things ought to be distributed more evenly? This is the kind of 'logic' that I might apply if I were to say something like: "I need better clothing, and it is unfair that you should have more than I do, therefore it is right for me to demand you give me some."

It is not obviously apparent that the fact that some things are unevenly distributed means that they should be, especially when that kind of interference would be a strangling of the liberty of the person.

The real answer to your premises is: So what? So what if some people can't be happy and it's unfair? That's natural fucking law, dude.

BumblingBeta · 2022-07-08T18:02:20+00:00

It's because they think they will have to be forced into sex with men they aren't attracted to. Then the debate descends into a "my body my choice" "you're not entitled to sex" "no one owes you anything in dating" "sex is not important" shitfest.

delight-n-angers · 2022-07-08T17:59:18+00:00

There's a heavy implication out there, even if it's unsaid, that all these premises ultimately lead to a conclusion whereby society, the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some kind of action to limit women's freedom

That's not going unsaid. Many men are literally saying that. Many men are also literally saying that women shouldn't be in the work force. Many men are also saying that women should go back to being property of men and not have the right to vote. None of this is "going unsaid", it's being said every goddamn day.

sarkington · 2022-07-08T18:48:46+00:00

“Why should we do things we don’t want to do?”

“Because we’ll kill, rape or enslave you if you don’t”

“Ok, good talk”

EulenWatcher · 2022-07-08T17:11:02+00:00

Wow, a really good-written post on PPD!

I'd argue with "long but well-written and source-backed essay", as with black and red pill although they do use studies and all there are always the issues of cherry-picking, coming up with far too wilder conclusions than the authors of the study did and sometimes just misinterpreting them. Men do face certain issues with dating, I wouldn't argue with it, but I don't necessarily subscribe to red/black ideas about these issues.

The problem is that this sort of discussions and complaints are heavily linked to certain communities. We can argue what has come first a chicken or an egg, but let's be honest one doesn't have to put any efforts into finding manosphere/black pill/trp misogynistic because there's lots of misogynistic content and there are lots of very loud members of these communities who frame their views in the most offensive way on purpose. Whether they do it for clout, attention or out of spite is irrelevant. Combined with people's tendency to judge communities/social groups by the loudest members and to overgeneralize, it makes it really hard for men to discuss their dating issues without being brushed off as misogynists who wants to take women's rights away. Both because there are enough of very loud misogynists and because it's easier for people just to slap a tag on them and ignore whatever they're saying.

Another point to add is that well-written posts also get mixed with "woe is me because I don't have sex/sex is the only thing I need from women/women are good only for sex" kind of sentiments and it makes it very easy for people to brush everything off, because they don't really consider sex as a need and/or they believe men can just buy it. Compared to other issues a lack of sex doesn't seem like a crucial issue.

rhumel · 2022-07-08T19:26:42+00:00

So pointing out the truth implies something must be enforced at a society level? I never jumped to that conclusion at all and I would not agree with it.

You’re really trying to turn this into “men are trying to control and enforce sex to women” though, which is so far from reality and even opinions around here that I’m doubting you’re even being real and it’s not some kind of joke or way to discredit the discussion.

The idea of state enforced intervention on this matter is equally deranged and a totally ungrounded fear by whoever thinks that’s what’s being promoted: it could not be implemented even if it were to be approved, which in and on itself is a just laughable notion.

TRP says “improve yourself and trick the hypergamy game”. Blue pill says “improve yourself and be worthy of a woman’s love and you will get it”. Black pill just tells you to give up. Etc.

Not a single group is saying that women should be forced to evenly distribute love, affection and relationship because it’s as nuts as it gets. Please don’t make up a non existent argument to try and justify the very childish behavior of some women that just take a dump on unsatisfied men’s mouth telling them “so what? What’s the point of this?”.

They’re not implying “are you trying to promote a dystopia where women are forced to date unattractive guys?”, they’re implying “yeah you ugly you deserve to be alone stop bitching, being nice is not enough”.

Going 180 degrees and turning it to “omg women are afraid because it’s so menacing!” Is insulting to our intelligence.

The premises and the conclusions of what you’re describing are al pretty evident: women as a group largely do not care if men as a group are largely unsatisfied with how love, affection and relationships are distributed among them; if you’re one of the unlucky ones then you’re one of the unlucky ones, tough luck. Some of them call for improvement but the majority around here are just the “it is what it is, deal with it”.

Men on the other hand seem largely interested in helping on an individual level. You an unlucky one? Improve. And then there’s a totally hopeless portion that just spits hate and resent because they don’t seem to find a solution.

Those are scary on an individual level but as much as you can’t force a woman to love who you want her to love you can’t force an unloved man to be fine to be unloved his whole life. As you say to him I say to you about “but I don’t want him to be so hateful he should accept his destiny!”: tough luck.

Bonds_Girl · 2022-07-08T18:44:05+00:00

Men: we want to return to a monogamous way of life

Ok then start pressuring other men to marry women whom they impregnated. Place the same pressure on men that their grandfathers felt to marry and provide for a woman instead of just wanting casual sex and then walking away; or begging women to let you use their bodies to pop your man cherries. Why are there so many single mothers out there? They wouldn’t exist in these numbers if men had to marry and provide for women they impregnated. You want monogamy right? Let’s see it. Modern men have it far easier than their grandfathers had it but complain on extraordinary levels. It’s weak and loud. It’s also really tone deaf right now when we see these inanely high numbers of violent mass shootings and very very few men start to protest for their rights to have better access to mental health and therapy….nah men are like f that, these women just need to make easier for us to pump and dump them. JFC

And tell us why you have created a whole dungeon in your parents house versus buying homes and building something to attract us towards. You think we want to consider you as a partner when the best you can offer us is a spot next to you on a couch your mama paid for?

All of this is: men begging to have multiple casual sex partners with the minimum amount of effort required and the women who say Nah are incredibly shallow for rejecting us.

InfoVariety-8842 · 2022-07-08T17:42:15+00:00

They simply don't believe that an acknowledgement of the inequality is all these men are after.

I do think this is why you start see lockstep agreement on something, but a lot of shifting, morphing justifications underneath. In this case you often see vacillations between “the world is fair, you just need to improve yourself” and “the world is unfair, deal with it🤷‍♂️.” Obviously both can’t be true. One of those must be wrong. But when you are more concerned with the final outcome - in this case refusing to acknowledge inequity - it becomes less important to have a consistent justification, and more important that you refute the undesired outcome at all costs. So people don’t care or even realize that the group is offering up two incompatible solutions, just shoot down the bad thing at all costs. Overall very interesting post.

Midnight-writer-B · 2022-07-08T19:36:37+00:00

You are eloquent and clear. I already agreed with all of that, but I’ve never seen it expressed so well. It sucks that it’s so difficult to find love and companionship in this society at this time. It sucks that it’s disproportionately harder for men. But all of the “solutions” are far worse.

Redditcritic6666 · 2022-07-08T19:47:53+00:00

The implication here is that there's contradiction between how the left and feminist treat issues with society:

The left wants gender equality and want to say the genders are the same. However the genders are different and there's implications when it's different. For example 1) Trans-athletes who transitioned from male to female are dominating female sports and now the left are in conflict. If females can perform at the same rate as male (the rationale for equal treatment for women's sports : women's soccer and WNBA) then it stands to reason that a Trans athlete should compete with another athlete who are born female.... yet that is not the case. 2)Metoo movement until male victims of domestic abuse start showing up and 3) female/male education enrollment which enable female scholarship and support to the point where now female has more enrollment then male in education programs but the male scholarship and support are nowhere to be found.... etc.

The reality is that all these problems are founded upon the ideology of "equal gender"... and what should have been "different but treated equally fair" turns into "treated the same in equity" and then to "retain female privileges and fight the maintain the narrative that female are still disadvantaged, while all male are born into privilaged position so they'll have to be taken down a peg to the advantage of the females"

The implied solution that most feminist and left leaning people are stating suffers from false dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma in which their argument states that it must be that way... or else certain horrible events are to happen. Given your examples: If women aren't happier since the 50s, it MUST implied that solution is for society to now allow women in the workforce.. when in reality there's multiple solutions and implications to women's happiness and their proposed outcome is nothing except an outrageous leap of logic that wants to put words in the opposition's mouth.

shingox · 2022-07-09T05:39:03+00:00

Brilliant

rothkochapel · 2022-07-09T12:49:39+00:00

I think this is what most women are
concerned by. There's a heavy implication out there, even if it's
unsaid, that all these premises ultimately lead to a conclusion whereby
society, the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some
kind of action to limit women's freedom in order to rectify an unfair
and unjust situation and ultimately try and redistribute this important
thing (Female love, sexual attraction and companionship) more evenly.

I'll give you a better option, something that adresses the main issue behind all of this.

Violence & War.

Much more of it.

Culling of the male population.

This is pretty much what solved the sexual asymmetry problem between men and women since humans existed until quite recently.

Now I'm not saying this is a great solution, but it is A solution.

OhDestinyAltMine · 2022-07-08T17:35:24+00:00

I think you’re partly very right, but i also think there’s an aspect of women gravitating to the apocalyptic scenarios because they’re weirdly more comforting psychologically than the larger reality that also involves men indifferent to them beyond sex.

Like overly online women have a weird obsession with loser guys, and it’s roundly observed how frequently these women are burned by fwb situations or basically the sexual and social privilege that INCREASES for apex men due to female liberation.

In part these same questions force women to come to terms with their physical mediocrity, as well as the basicness of their romantic and sexual impulses. It’s simply a lot more comforting on an ego level to focus on rabid sexless guys, because the alternative is more damaging: that despite all this massive thirst imbalance, many of these girls STILL don’t have a guy who wants to stick around after he nuts. And that there are actually tons of decent men they’re ignoring (again, no normative argument from me. I love liberal feminism). It’s just much easier to focus on the loud minority of losers whose pain and drama makes your ego anxiety feel lesser.

sabiinvesting · 2022-07-08T17:34:48+00:00

I think the issue could be that people aren’t as aware of past cultures outside of the western world. There was an eastern culture more than a millennia ago that lasted until the 17th century, where women had the same financial freedoms as men, therefore didn’t require men for financial reasons necessarily. What I suspect was different back then was stronger sense of community (popular literature contains a widower that went around houses to get his neighbours to breastfeed his daughter), strong denouncement of promiscuity, family oriented society, and normalized monogamy. Humans somehow became too individualistic, less social and hedonistic.

MegaGigaTeraBased · 2022-07-08T18:14:48+00:00

Best post I've read on this sub by far. Extremely based take and I completely agree with you

Occams_clipper · 2022-07-08T19:22:48+00:00

I love how it's just assumed that women's massive advantages in the sexual marketplace are purely a result of 'freedom' and not because of restrictions on men.

-passepar2t- · 2022-07-09T10:39:21+00:00

I can't speak for what other men imply and there are some scary tradcons out here whose conclusions women are not wrong to be afraid of.

But first of all, I don't think that's what many guys are implying. It's not "therefore we should redistribute women" but "therefore it's okay for me to use lies, manipulation and other dirty tricks to game women" into sex or relationships.

Second of all, still other men, including myself, believe your list of premises is missing one, which spoils the implication.

Love, sexual attraction and companionship are really very, very important to a person's wellbeing to the point you can't really be happy without them. (Well you can but let's go with it)
Love, sexual attraction and companionship is distributed to women fairly evenly, but men absolutely hugely, incredibly unequally.
Love, sexual attraction and companionship is distributed unrelated to virtue, moral goodness or anything which could be said to "deserve" or "earn it", and this is therefore unfair and unequal.
However, any notion of forcible redistribution is so far beyond the pale that even if it were to fix men's issues, it cannot be considered. The current unfairness is preferable to coercion.

Therefore, until we come up with some other implied solution, we're stuck.

Philosophicallife · 2022-07-08T21:03:43+00:00

I genuinely don't understand PPD. PPD; Women should quit being so picky and date me! Also PPD; I don't want to be settled for!!! I want her to genuinely want me! Like which is it?

rhumel · 2022-07-08T20:04:29+00:00

I wrote a large comment on this itt but most people won’t read it I predict, so I want to make a short point clear.

What a woman likes can’t be and should not be controlled. It’s a man’s job to either try and fit that standard or fall short and be alone.

That being said, how a man feels when falling short and being alone also can’t be and should not be controlled. We can enforce that law is abided so he shouldn’t commit crimes, but you can’t expect him to repress all his resent and frustration and just somehow be quiet and do not disturb the rest of society.

That man can and should speak up, bring this issue to the table and discuss it. If you don’t like that and would rather have him be miserably invisible, because you don’t like how ugly reality is when faced without make up, how bitchy a man can be or how menacing it sounds.. tough luck.

As much as that man got tough luck and will be unloved his whole life and that doesn’t justify forcing a woman to love him, you get tough luck on having to have him around in society sounding angry and resented, because he’s, and that in and on itself is not a crime.

Those are humans being you know, the fact that they aren’t loved doesn’t mean they’re awful, we all agreed with that even from this OP, so you don’t get to shut them and their opinion down just because you don’t like it.

CostcoPocket · 2022-07-08T21:55:15+00:00

This is an excellent post.

DisplacedBitzer · 2022-07-09T03:39:33+00:00

Acknowledgement IS the goal. Consider, that mainstream society dismisses the issues men face in dating. It must be something they aren’t doing, they just need to fix it, just be yourself! Lots of terrible advice that never works. TRP and everything only exist because men realized the way they were raised and taught how relationships/dating/women work doesn’t work for the vast majority of men. Essentially, acknowledgement eases the mental burden(frustration at no results), and potentially backlash(red pill rage) of when men realize the game is rigged and they can’t do shit about it. It’s much easier to accept everything is unequal if you are actually taught that from the beginning, instead of mislead.

1Here4Bach · 2022-07-08T16:52:35+00:00

It’s so obfuscated because no one gives a shit. I am well aware that it hard for some men to get sex and what about it?

This isn’t like workplace discrimination. Your lively hood isn’t threatened if you don’t get to fuck a different woman every week. Never in the history of the human race has the majority of men gotten to have sex at will. Why should we start now?

WilliamWyattD · 2022-07-08T18:53:13+00:00

There is some truth to the OPs suggestion that this dynamic is at play in many people's thinking. But it is also a logical fallacy. You can't let some intuitive anticipation of the prescriptive influence your descriptive analysis.

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. There's nothing forcing someone who has agreed with various observations of what seems to be the facts to then jump to a given prescription. Deal with each step at a time, on its own terms.

The OP is also uncharitable to JBP. Why not take him at his word that he is honestly struggling with these issues, and has no secret grand solutions.

The problem with the OPs take on this is that this is just another form of the radical left's assertion that the dialectic is a charade. Rational discussion of a topic is ultimately just a trick which can be used to prevent someone from fighting for their true interests. The reality is that we all have interests and the power to pursue them, and all that really matters is who can muster the most power in pursuit of what they believe to be true.

wtknight · 2022-07-08T17:09:54+00:00

Love, sexual attraction and companionship is distributed to women fairly evenly, but men absolutely hugely, incredibly unequally. (Mostly all agreed and now backed up by reams of data)

What data are these? There are roughly the same number of men as there are women. If men can’t find love and companionship, that’s their issue, not because men have some inherent disadvantage.

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Lift_and_Lurk · 2022-07-08T17:54:36+00:00

TL; D Mother fucking, R! bro.

AcanthocephalaNew947 · 2022-07-08T19:23:57+00:00

Yeah, I’d say that sums it up

HuckleberryThis2012 · 2022-07-08T20:02:19+00:00

There is a level of “we women have these inequalities that aren’t cared about so we don’t care about yours” that tends to happen to both sides of the argument.

I don’t think the answer is anything close to gov stepping in (and I don’t think any rational person would suggest that as a solution) as much as the solution is what the womens side claims to want anyway: a change in societal norms. Part of having women as equals in the workforce/society as a whole would be removing the norm that the man has to be the breadwinner/protector. The man has to make more and be more successful or he isn’t considered a good match. Not to suggest that women should settle for no job having awful looking guys who just want a mommy, but that maybe a successful career woman should consider someone who is a good person, reasonable good looking compared to them, and works hard at their job even though it might not be a 6 figure+ salary.

The other thing to note about that is the women at the high end of the female hierarchy struggle much like lower end men do to find a long term partner. If women date across and up, I feel like that’s not a crazy thing to accept as true, then the top women have very few realistic options. And those men typically have the whole range of women to choose from, and often won’t bother settling down at all, and if they do they aren’t sticking to the top 1% anyway bc they’re socialized to be accepting of a woman not being exactly as high status as they are. So it’s not about having women lowering their standards to nothing, but maybe reevaluating what is reasonable to expect in lieu of wanting to be equals in society. For example if you have a good looking woman with a strong career who earns more than enough to support a family, why is it ridiculous to say she could be with a good looking construction worker who happens to be a good partner for her as well? Sure he makes less, but at a certain point if you keep your career and earn more than enough to support a family, it wouldn’t make any difference if the husband makes less since the household income would be fine.

I think that would lead to an increase in happiness for both sides as we start to devalue certain old societal norms.

KingKlob · 2022-07-08T20:15:59+00:00

For me it's that we can recognize that people need love and affection, so when a vast slice of the populace is deprived of that (unintentionally of course) this has very negative affects on society as a whole. I'm not saying it's women's fault or anything like that as no one can control who a person is attracted to. But we do need to find a solution without taking away anyone's freedoms. Maybe that solution is legal prostitution, maybe it's finding a way to get people a substitute for love and affection, maybe it's something else. But the first step is recognizing there is a problem. Personally I don't know what the solution would look like and this doesn't directly affect me as I have a very loving family.

LowCreddit · 2022-07-08T20:22:03+00:00

I think most of these troubled men are tired of hearing bullshit like how their personalities are reprehensible or their cleanliness is in question. I don't cede that you need to limit women's freedom in order to fix the distribution either. All you need to do is remove the license. Make men and women equal.

hsvgamer199 · 2022-07-08T20:49:06+00:00

I think this is what most women are concerned by. There's a heavy implication out there, even if it's unsaid, that all these premises ultimately lead to a conclusion whereby society, the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some kind of action to limit women's freedom in order to rectify an unfair and unjust situation and ultimately try and redistribute this important thing (Female love, sexual attraction and companionship) more evenly.

That, I think, is the crux of the debate.

There's no moral or practical ways for society to address the implication. Some acknowledgement might be nice but at the end of the day I don't expect anyone to care. Life is unfair in many ways and this is just another thing to add to the list.

I don't like the loneliness and expectations that society has for me as a man but what can anyone do? Aside from self-improvement, nothing.

richard_golbes · 2022-07-08T21:45:38+00:00

Love, sexual attraction and companionship is distributed to women fairly evenly, but men absolutely hugely, incredibly unequally. (Mostly all agreed and now backed up by reams of data)

Source?

shimapanlover · 2022-07-08T23:42:05+00:00

There is another solution to the problem, the one we are actually embarking on right now, that nobody is calling out or even recognizing and I don't know why:

We simply outsourced the oppression of women to developing countries and import their labor force later when foreign countries paid for their education. If you don't care about social cohesion and the problems immigration at such a large scale may cause (macro-economists, globalists don't) it's a really great solution to the problem. You can act like a moral authority, present yourself as saving other people, fight against racism - but what you actually do, is letting foreign women pay for your country's fortune. As long as they stay uneducated and poor they will have the labor force we can than "safe" in our country to have new people (Cheap labor welcome, we are in need of work drones to sustain ourselves) until their kids get educated and we need more immigration again.

Our whole system relies on taking advantage of uneducated, poor women from foreign countries. We are not sustainable without them. (Also, maybe I'm not seeing something and I'm wrong here, otherwise I can't really explain why this isn't being talked about that much).

And no, I do not have a solution. I personally don't want to go back to the 60s. Yes Monogamy may be a solution but as a man, fuck all of the responsibility that will be placed on me in that kind of world. It could be that there is no solution, just watch the decline, whether you chose to fuck around or become a coomer. Better than going back to that world imo. Just hope that the wars that will follow will be long after you are dead.

freerossulbrich · 2022-07-09T00:28:44+00:00

You know what. You are right.

I disagree with your implication. I do not think society should do anything to rectify unfair and unjust situation and redistribute women. I am a libertarian.

However, that's exactly what the state does.

The true purpose of anti poligamy laws is there to prevent women from picking some men. The true purpose of monogamy is to ration females in equal share for everyone.

Some people say but anti poligamy laws can be easily circumvented by sex outside marriage. Not easy. Also most of the circumvention is mined. For example, a rich guy can live with a woman never intending to marry her. Then the state declare they are married.

Are there more libertarian solution to this? A lot. Porn. Handjob. Contraception. Polyandry.

However, this issue is hardly raised. All those solutions are politically incorrect too.

Catherine772023 · 2022-07-09T00:53:20+00:00

It’s not as bad as poverty and shouldn’t be compared to it. This is also about numbers. 99% people over 40 have lost their virginity. That’s going to include the overwhelming majority or men. People don’t have that kind of luck escaping poverty. The idea that the state should do more about poverty is because poverty is a more prevalent issue as well as consent reasons. Sex isn’t a need but food is. I will acknowledge that sex is a biological desire and it’s natural for most people to want sex.

“Something must be done to stop it” doesn’t work because it’s not his feelings work and feelings aren’t money.

It’s natural for most to desire sex but friendship can be a good source of love and companionship. Even if you miss out on romance. Condolences but coercion won’t help.

Basically it’s not hypocritical to even say women are privileged in dating (since some privileges are partly about choices eg how wealth mixes with opportunities and how you use them...I think women are but because women are pressured to look hotter) without thinking it justifies distributing women as resources. Women are human beings deserving of consent and sex isn’t a need and money distribution is for needs like food.

I mostly support capitalism but welfare for people who can work or want to for human needs is important and so are higher minimum wages. In order to believe in consent I support consensual prostitution. If people on higher minimum wages did overtime maybe they would afford hookers so it would help them get laid too. It wouldn’t need any coercion. I wouldn’t go as far as to support communism.

If you believe attraction is important coercion won’t help.

Advertising beauty standards and more products put more pressure on women to look attractive and women look better than men. Maybe women are more likely to be found more attractive but these standards make them more likely to be attractive. I know way more women caring about diets and clothes and style etc even more than hot guys who get laid every weekend. Women are more desired (I agree) but there’s a reason.

I think love and companionship is partly about merit because it’s harder to live a bad person but this isn’t an absolute rule.

I can’t agree enough that sexual desire is miles away from a meritocracy. It is as far away as American capitalism and their delusion of the American dream. I think hygiene and exercise and charm help but it’s not certain. I don’t think it makes a man a bad guy if he doesn’t but it lowers his chances.

I’m more concerned by very thin conformist female models that create this pressure on women adding to the problem.

mustbepurged · 2022-07-09T01:11:13+00:00

Great post man. Chances are something will be done about it by a combination of businessmen and politicians who realize population decline is gonna be bad.

ThrowRAmtf · 2022-07-09T03:53:28+00:00

Female love, sexual attraction and companionship...

...they are different and they don't necessarely come together.

You can't force sexual attraction.

faster, cheaper, better: pick two

The "solution" might be to force all girls to marry at least a somewhat compatible boy, but to tell men that your wife will be not faithful.

This was probably the "norm" in the past: all women were induced to marry before 20, sometimes as early as 15-16 (at least here in Europe).

So in some way all men had access at least to a "companionship"and, at least in the honeymoon phase, to female love.

But... sexual attraction is not part of the equation and, before DNA tests, we had that a good percentage of children were of a different father.

The solution found now is that women choose "sexual attraction" and love first... but struggle to get companionship because they are competing for a small set of men who cannot commit.

Men who don't have access to women's love early must resort to prostitution or porn or celibacy before waiting for "their turn" as Betas.

It might not be the ideal solution but it seems that in this way cheating is drastically reduced because the woman has already satisfied herself in the early years and she is ready now to commit.

is it moral? Well, maybe not.

But every other solution seems worse than the problem.

High_Pains_of_WTX · 2022-07-09T04:34:06+00:00

So, and correct me if I am wrong, but you believe access to dating platforms has increased the polarity between haves and have-nots, with men coming out on the losing side? And that these dating platforms have radically changed the way humans interract and approach sexual/romantic partnerships?

pm_me_hairy_nudes · 2022-07-09T05:07:17+00:00

I don't think most men who bring it up are serious about the "implication". They bring it up to just to get attention and then lash out at people sympathizing or offering polite advice.

I sort of get it, if someone in my family got into a car accident, I might spend some time thinking that life was so unfair and being alone, depressed, and lashing out even at well meaning people. For both cases, most strangers don't truly know how you feel and can't help you and blaming them for your circumstances won't get you anywhere. It's not satisfying, but there are certain problems those men can only solve themselves.

DaSemicolon · 2022-07-09T13:01:59+00:00

I’ve heard it as leading a horse to water colloquially, even though that’s a completely different saying. But I really like “shortstop.”

People should be completely fine if there’s not a known solution out there. Because the new status quo is definitely better for women than 60 years ago, so we can definitely improve for men too.

Cablepussy · 2022-07-09T21:56:43+00:00

I think one of the reasons men are so unsympathetic to solutions like this is because of how proactive the government is for female issues.

Women are the only ones with any rights in relation to children, the government will force you to pay child support but won’t force a woman to keep the baby let alone enforce child support against women even if it’s granted.

But are perfectly willing to enslave a man to perpetual consistent prison time due to backed child support.

When divorcing women will almost always get half if not more and if you have a prenuptial the judge can just be in a mood and throw it out.

You can be put on child support from your convicted rapist and have no say in the matter if the child lives or if you pay for it.

Other men consider being raped by women a pleasurable thing and want to be the ones being raped, real rape culture.

Men get arrested or force d to leave every time a domestic call is made.

Men almost always lose everything from a simple rape accusation and when found out it was a lie nothing changes and there is no punishment.

When a woman has a child she can put whoever she wants as the father and go after them from child support and the government doesn’t care if they even know each other.

The government gives women alimony something that could be considered far worse than child support as it lasts an entire life time and will almost always run longer than the actual marriage which is crazy and the moment it starts effecting women people realize how fucked up it is.

At the end of the day women are scared because they realize when it gets bad enough sex will not be given it will be taken and by that time there won’t be any men left in stopping it. This is “the decline.”

Yummylicky23 · 2022-07-08T16:58:38+00:00

Maybe they keep bringing it up bc they want government regulated laws that pertain to dating

Pigeon_of_the_sea · 2022-07-08T17:35:56+00:00

I think this is very true, and I've seen people on here blatantly say rolling back women's rights is the way to go. It's scary....because not only was this already a reality for most of history, but women lack rights in lots of countries. And we all know history is cyclical. It seems like either one sex suffers or the other does.

CentralAdmin · 2022-07-08T17:12:55+00:00

I have said it before. There are solutions to these problems but women would be unwilling to compromise even if it is to their benefit

Women complain about casual sex sucking or fuccbois not committing. Solution? Be consistent and accept the consequences of your choices. If you offer sex soon after meeting the guy, don't be mad if he doesn't offer more than sex in return. Alternatively, and to your benefit, get commitment first. This way you get a boyfriend you like to fuck and no man has to wonder if you were making him pay a higher price for the same sex you offered a dude soon after swiping right.

Women complained for years about inequality in areas that they felt were important to them. Men adjusted culture, education, government and expectations of women to accommodate them. Yes, women are more miserable today despite having all this freedom but men kept their end of the bargain.

Men erroneously believed sexual liberation would lead to a more equal distribution of love and sex. Instead, women targeted the top 20% of men, which left so many out of the game they simply gave up. Women are too selfish to consider the impact of their choices on the SMP and despite men bending over backwards to make things better for them, they couldn't give a damn about whether the average guy's love life even exists or not. Fair enough, they don't have to.

But there are a record number of single people in the US in relative and absolute terms. Most of them would love to meet someone to marry. They do, in fact, consider marriage a life goal worth aspiring to.

How can there be so many single people about who are unhappy with the prospect of dating each other OR where one group wants to be with the other, but are not seen as good enough? The solution is compromise. No one is perfect. It's all fine and well to see compromising as some sort of failure, but if you aren't among the most privileged people in a society, you have to settle for someone less than ideal whether it be in terms of earnings, height, looks or even race - if you cannot stand the idea of being alone for the rest of your life.

Isolation_Man · 2022-07-08T17:52:45+00:00

One of the best posts I've even read in this sub.

Yes, the logical conclusion is as obvious as uncomfortable (for women): it is needed some degree of social engineering in order to make the situation fairer towards men. In other words, the date/sex market can't be a completely free market in which women and a few men have it all, most men struggle to get barely anything and a few men get absolutely nothing at all.

monkeybeast55 · 2022-07-08T22:06:50+00:00

As a fellow male, I wonder how anyone writing 20 page Reddit posts about the unfairness of their gender ever gets laid? Would ever get laid? Do you expect woman to flock to you, just so sexually excited by hearing this kind of rant? Or maybe you think this will make them want to prove to you just how fair and just the world really can be by sharing a bit of their moist vagina? Or maybe they'll be so greatly impressed by your "well-written and source-backed essay" to the point where they'll just have to fuck the author as if he was a literary rock star?

I just don't get it dude. You're a self-fulfilling prophecy.

shdai · 2022-07-08T19:22:14+00:00

I think there is something that you miss out on in this argument which is that women's delusions is one of the reasons men have huge issues in the dating market. the OK cupid study shows us that they think top tier guys are whats average if that isnt delusional then idk what is

it is assumed that when they acknowledge men's side of things it would in theory make it easier for men to find less fucked up women.

because one of the reasons women justify them whoring themselves is cos they believe men do it.

they damage themselves to the point of being incapable of pair bonding and then look to settle when they're old and unfuckable

the automatic solution that you say isnt what is expected. rather that women realize nobody wants to turn a hoe into a housewife and making yourself unmarriable isnt something they should be doing religiously. this realisation should occur to them when they realise that their potential spouse has had a LOT less sex than they have so they wouldn't be seen as empowered or modern but as a traditional whore.

i am of course disregarding the perspective of cuckolds and losers that love the idea of their wives getting railed by 100s of men or would be ok marrying anything with a vag

R_O_Brother · 2022-07-08T17:04:48+00:00

yeah. i remember when i desperately needed people on the internet to validate my life experiences i also posted long, rambling screed's source backed by anonymous reddit posts.

variedpageants · 2022-07-08T18:00:59+00:00

There's a heavy implication out there, even if it's unsaid, that all these premises ultimately lead to a conclusion whereby society, the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some kind of action to limit women's freedom

You seriously, unironically think there are meaningful numbers of men out there who want the government to step in and "limit women's freedom" to ... sleep around??? You seriously see PPD threads and you worry that's where it's headed?? Like, if you can't present a rational argument against the claim (the true claim) that men have it rough in dating, that you'll wake up tomorrow and the government will say "right! No more tinder for you then!!"

Relax Karen. No liberal western democracy is going to stop you from chasing chad. Nobody is going to turn off the tap on that sweet sweet promiscuity fountain. The carousel will spin and attention and validation will fall like mana from the heavens.

Put your mind at ease. You will always be able to find a penis. There is no dick-flation threat.

Here's the purpose of those PPD threads which argue that men have a hard time dating:

Purpose 1

When you live in a world that denies some obvious truth, it's nice to see the deniers asked to defend their denial. So, men who are told, elsewhere in society, that everybody has it equally rough - they come here and engage in these debates and watch you lose the debates (because the truth really is that men really do have it rough) and that's a sort of catharsis for them.

It's just kind of a nice feeling. That's all. There's no secret agenda to remake society according to Handmaid's Tale. Also, read another book.

Purpose 2

The other purpose of those threads is to head-off the inevitable complaining by women when the fun times are over. I don't want to hear a 30+ year old women whining "where are the good men??" - these threads demonstrate that you had your hour in the sun where the world was your oyster. If you failed to use that time wisely, and now you're alone and unhappy, that's your fault.

Those are two very legitimate purposes for such threads, and neither of them imply Sharia Law. Okay?

Tusnella · 2022-07-08T18:28:43+00:00

The bad implication of having women admit to "yes women have it easier but there is nothing we can do about it, men should deal with it and work harder. Why should i settle down for someone i am not attracted to" is not the call for some institution to step in (wtf). And no i dont think women should, that men to it out of desperation is bad enough already.

Its that i makes you sound like all the landlords employers politicians etc. that aknowledge an unfair leverage without the will to change. Women earn less than man, deal with it Rent to high deal with it Wages to low deal with it Can't get laid deal with it Income distribution becoming worse deal with it

You just have to try harder and all of the above problems will go away.

Also now i know that explaining why things are bad without presenting a solution is stopshorting.

cherrysoupsux · 2022-07-08T20:14:59+00:00

Yall really forget some stuff. Alot of you say how men are apparently less priviledged in the dating market. I absolutely disagree. The average looking man has the same chances as the average looking woman. The only thing is, you actually see average women as disgusting. The average woman in US is a 5"4 170 pounds body. Average means 4-5-6/10. Yall actually see 7-8-maybe 9s as average looking women. Good. Now, marriage mostly benefits men, esp now. Women are expected to destroy their body with 1 or more pregnancies. They work the same hours as men do, while still being the one doing house labour, expected to always look nice, be the more responsible parent(see good cop/bad cop but with parenting) AND keep the spark alive, keep "seducing" their man, keep him from straying away etc, even if men and women cheat in largely the same quantities, men cheating more than women with a bit over 13 procents, i think.

Married men report to be happier, they also live longer, get sick less, less likely to have a heart attack, more likely to be employed and be on an insurance plan, more likely to live thru sickness.

Now, the divorces are mostly demanded by women. Wonder why lol? Married Women are actually likely to die earlier than married men. Lol. They have higher levels of stress, higher cortisol levels(so they are more stressed, hooray). They are reportedly less happy. A man is 6 times more likely to leave his wife is she gets sick, even more likely if this illness affects their sex life. Wow. Just great :))) in sickness and in health, right hubby? <3 Now you might come with yiur chad argument, that its women's fault for not choosing better men to marry. But i tought chad didnt want to settle down? And only betas want to? Those who are sexually opressed by women? Hmmmm. Okay :) makes sense lol./s

Straight women are reported to be the ones finishing during sex the least, with only 65% of straight women having an orgasm. Straight Men have the highest rates, 98% of sexual encounters ending in their orgasm. Wow. Great! The leading cause of death in pregant women is domestic abuse. Poggers ^{^} women are more likely to suffer from domestic abuse than men. Wow so lucky 😍 such a privilege to be abused by a nice man who wanted to settle down, surely not because hes manipulative and abusive and wanted to baby trap me! Omg, how lucky <3 Divorced men are more likely to find a partner and remarry after their divorce. While really good looking women get plenty of attention in their 20's, this changes alot lol. And its not like any of you are trying to settle down at 21. You just wanna fuck. Its easy to get one night stands. So fucking easy. Marriage benefits men. And tbh, no amount of flowers or dinners (that are literally only there to earn men social points so they can fuck me 😍 how great, im sooo greatful, i have always wanted to be treated like this)

High_Pains_of_WTX · 2022-07-09T01:24:05+00:00

May I ask: If women indeed have sexual privelege..... why do you care? How does this help anyone find companionship or intimacy?

ruboyuri · 2022-07-08T19:15:00+00:00

Of course we’re concerned about it.

When I was born, women had just started being able to have credit cards and bank accounts on our own.

This is like asking black people why they just can’t get over slavery and racism when institutionalized inequality is still within living memory and cops still have it out for them

RentedPineapple · 2022-07-08T21:18:54+00:00

No one is owed love, sexual attraction or companionship. People can point out objective facts (men are sexually frustrated and lonely). These facts are simply that, facts. Any implication about what SHOULD be depends on a person’s values. In modern western society we value self determination, which unlike female companionship, people are owed.

throwaway264757 · 2022-07-08T17:12:19+00:00

Female natural selection is far more healthy than the government stepping in. Tf 😂 Women's choice of who to mate with is actually what manipulates evolution. If you tamper with that you are making a worse world for every one.

Sorry that it's harsh but a huge chunk of genes need to be eradicated through natural selection. If incels can't accept that theres nothing that can be done for them. They are too selfish to put the good of the human race over their own personal needs. They therefore deserve the loneliness. Not everyone is meant to breed.

Fat_Papaya · 2022-07-08T17:21:23+00:00

Society will seek to give men prostitution, sex robots, VR porn and antidepressants by the bucket rather than to simply return to a monogamous and chaste norm. The absolute level of destruction that is tolerated as to not inconvenience women is fucking insane. No wonder there has never been a successful matriarchal society haha

abagus101 · 2022-07-09T04:46:10+00:00

Women really shouldn't be in the workforce, that solves 90% of your modern social issues.

DerekMorganBAUxx · 2022-07-08T17:11:37+00:00

Dumb premise.

The solution is TRP. The very thing the head in the sand white suburban UMC women and simp men vilify.

I’ve said it before. Niggas in the hood never complained about the lack of access to pussy or relationships. This phenomenon mainly exists in a different demographic.

Just let the men handle it in their own spaces it’s that simple

itm4l2000 · 2022-07-08T18:53:30+00:00

This is sad. If men can't get laid just go to a brothel. If women can't get laid, use a vibrator.

Build deeper, non-sexual relations with anyone you like and live a meaningful life.

Life is unfair, it's better to embrace it than beg the State to intervene.

People need to take responsibility of their own lives and strive for things that they can change and stop giving a fuck about things they can't. Life tends to get better after that.

Ohmaygahh · 2022-07-09T14:21:03+00:00

I don't think it's so much the implication of change but that we forgot that the powers of our past sculpted society in such a way to be more as productive as possible for the main benefit towards the wealthy/influential few at the top and little passive benefit but hope that through hard work and effort, some of the bottom may rise to the top through merit and it having been earned.

It's as if most of the population hasn't realized the ongoing implicit social contract... that most heterosexual men will be left behind without a lifelong partner, or really any partner, for the totality of his life.

The promise of working hard, being useful, rising through the male social hierarchy and cooperate with superiors was to bring value, and if sustained for long enough, those undesirable men become attractive to the opposite sex.

We are socially regressing, and going back to women becoming "feral" for lack of a better word, removing a giant incentive for unattractive men to do something. The old ways don't work, it's debatable if they ever did. But the old rules did move society forward. But nowadays we don't even acknowledge that. And people dismiss that for many men, sex is of such great importance that it spurs action in us. For the most part, even high libido, openly sexual women aren't nearly as driven, and definitely don't transmute sexual energy into non sexual goals the way men do.

And so, here is the disconnect. It won't get better because we can't even all agree on what the problem is. Forget trying to get to a solution.

RobDog101 · 2022-07-09T14:42:42+00:00

Stricter sexual division of labor and separation of male and female social spheres and formally and culturally enforced monogamy would be necessary to mitigate women’s natural eugenicist tendencies.

I’ve seen women literally sabotage the livelihoods of men they find repulsive or conspire to get them fired purely because they got “bad vibes” from them, because the truth is they don’t want them in the gene pool at all and if given the power and opportunity they would straight up cull them. Men shouldn’t have to deal with that sort of fascistic judgment from women in their professional lives (and all the rest of the time they’re in public) when they’re only doing the jobs they’re forced to do to live and/or support their family and others.

Also, women’s increased participation in the workforce devalues labor. Sorry but facts are facts.

Women’s sexual options also shouldn’t be unlimited. I’m not even going to go into why or how this reduces the value (yes, it sounds harsh but is true) of most women while increasing the value of a minority of men based on criteria that you really don’t want value to be based on if you’re trying to have a successful society. And no I’m not saying that because I’m an incel and resent that women reject me because they’re given too much choice. I have no personal vested interest in enforced heterosexual monogamy since I’m gay (and women still want me). But as a member of society I realize that sexual liberation is an objectively negative thing for everyone not least of all because it has created a caste system based on sexual desirability and prowess and left the majority of men behind (again, the female eugenic design).

Bunny_and_chickens · 2022-07-08T20:42:21+00:00

Sounds like you're arguing that we need less men

IcarusKiki · 2022-07-08T22:07:42+00:00

It's obvious why sexual "inequality" isn't discussed. Because the men that matter are getting it.

purplenelly · 2022-07-08T22:11:24+00:00

Question of perspective. I think men have the sexual privilege hands down.

thrwwayguy · 2022-07-09T00:28:13+00:00

I personally think women on this sub just like to argue and don't care about logistics, or implications. It's all feelings no facts.

hari_hbp · 2022-07-09T04:14:36+00:00

Bruh....where do you guys get the time in the day to type up all these debate posts?...

Yuo_cna_Raed_Tihs · 2022-07-09T10:21:46+00:00

this is a Bad. Thing. and something should be done to stop it".

This doesn't actually follow. Same with JBP and Cathy Newman (though I'm probably more sympathetic to her than the ppd women in this hypothetical)

Sometimes life is unfair and there's nothing that can be done. But a lot of people get a large amount of solace when the unfairness is acknowledged. That is, the very act of agreeing with someone that it's unfair, when ppd women stop gaslighting average males and admit they're privileged in this regard, that in and of itself is beneficial for these men

OTOH, with JBP, he was just taking the piss. Like he brought up the fact that lobsters have hierarchies but... why? Nobody argues that hierarchies are bad because they're unnatural, they argue they're bad because they're unfair and/or lead to suboptimal outcomes. So it's pretty fair for Cathy to go "so what you're saying is that we should model our society after lobsters"

md8716 · 2022-07-09T10:29:28+00:00

Community and family kept people in close proximity, creating natural geographic barriers and making the sexual marketplace less competitive. More attractive prospects had lower standards, and less attractive prospects could get better results, resulting in more coupling. This benefitted civilization as it encouraged people away from their basic, destructive impulses.

But since careers and companies cause consumption-minded people to zip all around the world in order to attain more Capitalism Credits, the community disappears, those natural barriers fell, and people revert back to their basic caveman instincts. In other words, men try to spread their seed, and women try to mate with the most attractive man they can. It doesn't all happen at once, but it has increased tremendously. The ease of transportation, communication, and birth control has only helped this along.

The crux of the debate is the consequences of that transition from that regulated sexual marketplace to an unregulated free sexual marketplace. One of those consequences is an unequal distribution of love. Another is the diminishing returns of following societal rules leading to negative long term outcomes.

Personally, I believe the only ones who will end up truly happy and content are the ones that have the mental ability regulate their own behavior and reject the short term societal pressure to constantly produce, fuck, and consume in favor of a more meaningful long term goal.

Ok-Ability-OP · 2022-07-09T13:31:39+00:00

I loved reading this post, it was well worded, and it has such an excellent setup and delivery. I do believe for a proportion of men, point 5 is the truth, but for most men it is not the truth.

Most women and men have their beliefs on how the dating scene operates. A lot of people tend to skirt around some of the harsh truths around dating for various reasons. The reason you gave for women obfuscating the truth seem very legitimate.

The men are another part of the obfuscation. I myself align mostly with the "pill that shall not be named", I also align with some bluepill and redpill ideas given certain circumstances. I find a lot of redpill guys to be almost just as delusional as some of the bluepillers, pinkpillers, and FDS women.

When redpillers talk about lifting weights and improving your physique, grooming, skincare, and soft looksmaxxing related things, I agree. It will help, with attracting women and everyone should probably be self improving for themselves in general.

The issue with redpillers unintentionally obfuscating the disparity comes into play when you present them with the same data you would present to women who also, often say "just self improve". The only difference is that you eventually get most women to admit "So what I'm only attracted to a small subset of men", redpill men stay in this mindset that they can simply just become apart of the small subset of men.

Their pride gets in the way of looking at reality. A lot of men don't want to face the truth that they will never be apart of this subset, so they will delude themselves in just getting more "game", and acquiring more resources. The resource route especially tends to sound like some form of Betabux in denial. The idea that men are 50 years old and banging 20 years old on the regular without paying for it, is laughable (Go ahead man, say you're always paying for it). Most of these guys will never get the desire they want from these women, and will just set up a next goal in hopes of acquiring this desire. They won't even let it cross their mind that they will never ever obtain it on the same level as a naturally attractive man.

catniagara · 2022-07-09T14:46:43+00:00

So basically what you’re saying is that the implication of these arguments as that men are violent psychopaths who are willing to sanction rape and murder in order to get sex.

Personally I have seen men yell and scream over not getting specific sex from a specific woman they thought they deserved. And use their anger and threats of violence to get what they “wanted”…ostensibly sex, ostensibly a woman’s body whether or not she wanted sex, but in actuality they wanted to commit an act of psychotic violence against another person.

One in five. That’s how many women have been raped. But if you ask my friends, if you ask women who are terrified to report, it’s more like 1 in 1. Or 20 in 1, if you include multiple offenders and long term offenses.

Margaret Atwood was right. Men are afraid to be rejected. And they somehow think that’s the same as the fear of being murdered. Which is messed up. Of course they don’t want to admit it. And posts like this radicalize them to do so.

They seem to forget what happened the last time they tried to control and sanction us. You want that war? We WILL bring it.

RealNiceLady · 2022-07-09T16:04:19+00:00

disparity in sexual privilege between men and women

Men have a lot of sexual privilege that women don't have like the freedom to do what you want without judgement, privilege of not being able to get pregnant, less incident and severity of STDs, and in some countries, the privilege of having multiple wives.

the state or whatever it might be should step in and take some kind of action to limit women's freedom in order to rectify an unfair and unjust situation and ultimately try and redistribute this important thing (Female love, sexual attraction and companionship) more evenly.

If the state did something like that, they should also control men too to make their pursuit of women more fair. Examples include they can only pursue women for ltr and not casual sex, men can only date women in their decade of life and not younger (i.e. a man in his forties has to date a woman in her forties and not a woman in her twenties), men with a high body count can't date a woman with a low or no body count, men can't date a woman prettier than them, just their looksmatch or uglier, single dads can only date single moms and not anyone who is childless, black men can only date black women, Jewish men can only date Jewish women, and dark-skinned black and Indian men can only date dark-skinned people and can't date light-skinned people.