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While it's not true that women don't approach, it may ad well be true due to their general incompetence in doing

December 23, 2021
14 upvotes

So, this debate happens a lot where some people present women as extremely passive, insecure, and gun shy who won't make any first move and the SuperChad crowd who believe that prodigal amounts of looks, money, or status, but mostly looks, override this general rule.

In terms of direct and to the manner approaching, which is essentially her making an actual total unambiguous zero acquaintance her wanting to be with you sort of thing (think I think you're hot we should hang out together sometime as an opening line)....

...that's pretty rare.

Unambiguous statements of interest, i.e. just her telling you you're really attractive or whatever, not so much. Same for her maybe inviting her ti talk wirh her group at the venue or whatever shit. Happens to me all the time.

But the manner in which they do it is...

Put it this way, the caricature of how a creepy "bets male niceguy" approaches women, wirh a lot of lingering, hovering, and finally action/escalation attempt = women approaching.

Which means that, if you're a guy who likes efficiency or doesn't like to waste time, or whatever, when a woman approaches and you let her lead, almost invariably you're going to have to either take the lead or just let something that should have taken 2 hours take 12 hours or more.

Yes outliers exist but on average.

If I had to grade female approaching acumen when they are the ones trying to lead, it'd be a D+ (ha). The score are an average of several common "game" components

Logistics: F triple minus Ability to escalate/pull trigger: C (about the same as your average inept dude) State control: D Cute factor: A+ (they really are adorable in the process most times, no bullshit...)

So idk women do approach but how they approach and their general skillset tends to necessitate you taking the reins anyway

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Post Information
Title While it's not true that women don't approach, it may ad well be true due to their general incompetence in doing
Author Ohyarlysmiles
Upvotes 14
Comments 214
Date December 23, 2021 11:28 PM UTC (11 months ago)
Subreddit /r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/while-its-not-true-that-women-dont-approach-it-may.1090946
https://theredarchive.com/post/1090946
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/rn8ckf/while_its_not_true_that_women_dont_approach_it/
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Comments

[–]wtknightGen X Slacker[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

Flaired CMV as this post is making an affirmative claim

[–]Flightlessbirbz 16 points17 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

I’ve always heard the advice that women should drop (rather obvious) hints rather than approaching. That men like to take the lead. And I’m sure there are some times when a woman straight up approaching a guy works out, but generally speaking, I think it’s true that most men still feel like it’s their role to pursue. While men may say they wish women would pursue them, it seems this is more for an ego boost than because they’re actually going to want these women. What’s that saying? “Watch what they do, not what they say.” Men seem to want a woman to be open to their advances, but if she’s the one making the advances, they’re going to think she’s desperate or slutty. Which is the perfect way to get used.

[–]evanstown21 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, that’s also what I’ve been taught/learned. That dropping hints is girl game that should be taught more often. In olden times, a girl taking the lead was her purposely dropping her handkerchief or something like that.

[–]Flightlessbirbz 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, just saw a video with Matthew Hussey talking about the handkerchief thing the other day. Don’t care for him for other reasons, but feel like he’s right on that one. Dropping hints, using body language, making yourself approachable is the best way to go. Because if you’re too forward guys will think “why not” and you’ll end up getting used for hookups or as a placeholder. But if you’re too shy and guys don’t feel comfortable approaching, you can miss a lot of opportunities. And you may unwittingly filter for players and weirdos, because they’re the only ones who aren’t nervous to approach you. At least that was my experience when I was really shy and quiet.

[–]TodTheRod01 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The thing is typically what women think is obvious....is totally NOT

[–]Flightlessbirbz 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Now that I will agree on. Most women need to learn to be more obvious.

[–]BlKaiserXanax Pill 16 points17 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Τhat men like to take the lead

Some men do, most of them don't like it. Approaching someone first is the hard thing to do, the one with the risk of rejection, so most of the people (men and women) would both prefer to get approached. It is that simple.

[–]EnteFetzRed Pill Man 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, I absolutely hate the fact that I always have to take the lead, but that is simply what is expected from me.

[–]Prismatic_SymphonySomewhere in between 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

100%.

It's like a number of things in life. Like paying bills. Most normal people don't have a passion for giving away their hard-earned money paying overpriced bills. But you also don't wanna live in the street, so you do what you must.

[–]IcarusKiki22F 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

but most women want a man to take the lead in the relationship

[–]decoy88Black Male in London 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Approach”

 

“Relationship”

 

These two are not the same.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 15 points16 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Nah, that is just a cope.

Tons of men love being asked out and many will be fine with a less dominant role. Women just use that as an excuse to not try.

And when they try, they only try like once or twice and then say that to protect there ego. When asking people out, you go through a LOT of rejection.

I do not blame them, it sucks and unlike men, women get approached far more so they do not have as much of a reason to chase.

Not only that, but women tend to overestimate there value (probably because they do not ask out enough to figure it out…men start off doing the same). So they chase a man out of there league once, get rejected and say “welp, men dislike people who aka them out.”

[–]IcarusKiki22F 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

But most women dont want to be in that dominant role in the relationship. Approaching first sets a precedent of “you dont have to try/lead in the relationship”. I know a lot of guys obviously enjoy sitting back and letting the woman do everything but most women dont want this

[–]The_Meep_Lord 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wait, so you think that a woman doesn’t have to try in the relationship if he asks her out?

[–]Flightlessbirbz -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I don’t doubt men like being asked out, like I said, it’s an ego boost. But that doesn’t mean they like or value the women asking them. Men usually like to feel like they’ve chosen for themselves and worked for what they have, in all aspects of life. I don’t always like that fact, because it can quite frankly make men stubborn and contrary, so that you have to make them think everything was their idea or they will reject it. But it’s just how most men are. Don’t get me wrong, a woman can and should drop the most obvious hints and make herself very openly approachable for a guy she likes. But if he doesn’t feel like he was the one to initiate, he probably won’t value her as much. That, and the fact that usually men will pursue a woman they’re really interested in, so if he hasn’t yet, that’s a sign he isn’t that interested.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Ahhh, womansplaining. You have no idea how a man thinks.

[–]Flightlessbirbz 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Just like RP does to women.lol At least I have the courtesy to use words like “usually” and “most” because I know not all men are the same.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, we use data, you use your ass.

[–]Flightlessbirbz 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

lol Sure, Jan. “Data” always seems to be conveniently missing or without reliable sources.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Rigggghhttt.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Men seem to want a woman to be open to their advances, but if she’s the one making the advances, they’re going to think she’s desperate or slutty. Which is the perfect way to get used.

On the other hand, waiting for the advances of a man who otherwise would have thought you're slutty simply for approaching him isn't worth a relationship IMO.

[–]Flightlessbirbz 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Also true! But it’s hard to know at first.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that with some exceptions, men who are only looking for sex make it obvious, even if not consciously. You can always abstain from sex at the beginning .

[–]Sleight_Hotne 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or their advances are so terrible that are borderline harrasment. Not all, but most

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Flightlessbirbz 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

“Says hi or strikes up a conversation” is not the same as asking a guy out. I already stated it’s completely fine for women to show interest. Just not to make the first move in terms of asking for a date.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Flightlessbirbz 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, they do. Just not to you apparently. Sorry.

[–]TrueStormsWill not elaborate 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Women are so much more socially sensitive than men that they feel like they’re being incredibly blatantly obviously into a guy with hints he might not even notice.

[–]Ok_IndividualPurple Pill Man 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well I guess they're not socially sensitive enoigh to realize their obvious hints aren't working 🤷‍♂️

[–]TrueStormsWill not elaborate 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah true that’s why they have to learn to be more so

[–]baresquad 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If a girl wants to fuck you, she’s going to fuck you, and she knows how to go about doing so. They have game, they have social skills, and they know how to be responsive and react accordingly

What they don’t do is over analyze seemingly pick up artist strategies, get in their own head with things like a skill set, awkwardly approach, then fail. I guess what I’m getting at is that people approach dating free of all these internet strategies, methods, etc.

[–]okaysrs 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

positive feedback loops your entire life + positive affirmation from most people in your life will lead to that

[–]Wobblewobblegobble 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah not every girl can do that

[–]figuringMylife 6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

you can get my upvote for this one. lots of women honestly have no game and expect initially men to chase them and this is the only logical annoying thing i can understand men hate/vent about lol.

i still think women put more effort in over time, especially in marriage. but yeah.

[–]Initial_Chemical7121No Pill 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Because men chase unprompted usually. If we actually had to put in effort with it we would.

[–]figuringMylife 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

true. if anything men should be more mad at extroverted men than woman and yet they idolize them

[–]Initial_Chemical7121No Pill 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don’t really think there is a fault to put on anyone but I’d say it’s equal parts extroverted confident men and simps who have plans to marry you if you hold eye contact for more than two seconds 😅

[–]figuringMylife 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

LMAOOOO. i love me a cute lil simp, i cannot 🥲

[–]The_Meep_Lord 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol at only.

Divorce courts?

[–]figuringMylife 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

mmm. that’s not women’s faults. if anything it’s imo still men’s faults. y’all still control most things in the world. women are typically better at and do more domestic work. and men (especially red pill men) don’t care for career/ambitious women. if u marry a sahm/low income women - that is your dependent and you need to support her.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol

[–]evanstown21 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

See, women still need game to a certain extent. Being pretty is good but being pretty+game is even better

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 20 points21 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

PPD makes approaching look like some scientific endeavor, but it's not. You just smile, if the other person smiles at you you know you can come closer. Move on if the conversation seems boring. I've approached and been approached as well. I have a hard time believing this requires any special skills on anybody's part.

[–]cvslengthbucketlist 13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Generally yes, but depending on your smile it might require a bit of skill for some

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can't argue with that.

[–]lordbongius 25 points26 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You just smile

I have a hard time believing it requires any social skills

Ofcourse it's a women saying this

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

As a woman, I can tell you that none of the guys in question had any special social skills that others didn't have, and no, most of them weren't Chads.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

As a man, I can say that you are womansplaining.

You are behaving like a incel telling you what pregnancy is like.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I can judge a behavior if I'm its recipient.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But you cannot judge a why.

[–]Sleight_Hotne 14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

As a man, I can tell you that you have never been a guy who has approached a woman. So you don't know the anxiety most men have just to say hi, and how media is discouraging to approach.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! -3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Anxiety over nothing. Just necause something is a big deal in your head doesn't mean it is in real life.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's very hard not to have one's ass glued to the chair when PPD debates get heated.

[–]trail22 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women make eye cintact with you? Funny thing is I tried an experiment where I just tried to get women I was attracted to make eye contact with me... That was a very, very depressing month.

Nothing like approachg a friend of mine while thye are talking to an attractive women just to have they not make eye contact with me.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm actually a woman, but yes, I make eye contact with both men and women in both romantic and non-romantic contexts.

[–]trail22 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I did an experioement where I just tried to get women to make eye contact. In line at the grocery store or the coffee shop. At the gym I have been going to to for several years. On the street while I am jogging in the morning. I realized not just that women dont make eye contact but thye seem to actively avoid it unless they are standing behind a cash register. Then one day I went runnign with my bette lookign frined. And as we were running on the beach I realized as I tried to look at women that they were all lookign at him and he was smiling back. Over and over I would run past a women only to see her look at my friend.

And near that time I had a friend of mine who I ran with. I have trained for several marathons with her. She happened to get their early and ran with another guy who is better lookign to me. I over heard her sayign how weird it was runnign with a good looking guy because all these women stared at him.

I believe you when you say you make eye contact with men. I just wonder which men and if you are even aware of it. Because I know perosnally that yes I tend to look at good lookign people.

So If I waited for eye contact to approach someoen I would never approach anyone. Which honestly is the right course of action baed on my experience.

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Being good looking helps and very good looking men get women to smile at them without doing anything. That said, the place matters. My experience with approaching comes from social gatherings were people go to meet people. In most other places people are just trying to do their own thing.

To answer your question about the looks of these other guys, I'd say some were cute and some were average.

[–]trail22 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I friends of friends introdyuce me to women and they didnt make eye contact. A few times. I have approached friends while they were talkign to women they know and same. Fun times. A lot of these times were with friends who were women. One freidn even apologized in an email to me for her behaviour. That was nice.

I remember I was sayign byt to a freidn at meet up and she was talkign to someone else. I smiled at the lady and she gave me a dirty look. Good thing I was already set to leave. Made it less awkward when I walked away.

[–]Kaisha001 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It works great if you're hot... much less so if you're average.

[–]ChildhoodTop2283 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah

[–]Head-Language-2977 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for that breath of common sense. Either she’s attracted to you or she’s not.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (41 children) | Copy Link

Most woman have literally no experience approaching in a romantic situation because honestly there’s no need to. I think I and others want to approach men more but woman are taught that men like to be in control and we should let them have that control in order to seem more appealing.

I don’t think that’s true as the few times I have approached it’s been really successful, and men have seemed to really like the novelty of not having to do the work. I personally only approach if I’m almost certain it will work out because I fear the rejection but I’m trying to practice more cause why not

I do agree with you, woman will be and really have to be a lot more subtle with there “pick up” because being outright that you want someone would probably have you labeled a slut pretty quick.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 22 points23 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Lol women don't do it because it isn't easy and they don't have to.

That's why I purposefully delay taking the reins a lot of the time and watch her sweat. Not long ago someone was getting exasperated and awkward and I had to smirk and go "oh...NOT SO EASY, IS IT?"

Both of us cracked up

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Cute

Most woman would rather never meet anyone than be vulnerable like that, I know past me would feel that way. But now im at the point that I don’t really care

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You're right, which brings me back to the original point...it's not an accident that these women do this around me. I create a comfortable safe space very quickly that kinda takes the edge off and makes them feel up for trying that kind of thing.

So it's still me the whole time after their initial statement of interest anyway. Because people being brave should be rewarded.

[–]TodTheRod01 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Watch enough podcasts about dating...and you realize women and men have a different definition of approach...most women will say they do/did...but when questioned further...its clear it wasnt an actual approach by male standards

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Makes sense. I only go for guys that I feel like have already gives me body language there at least a little interested in me.

It’s good to take the edge off, sometimes it can feel so intense for no reason lmao I agree bravery should be rewarded

[–]dysonRing 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

But this is not really approaching I might be old-school but cold approach is what I only consider ballsy. Smiling at me after I smile back does not get the respect of a girl approaching out of the blue and wanting to fuck, or if there is too much stigma in that ask if I want a relationship. Some have come close, but not really what some men (including myself) really do when the cold approach is the only way.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. Yeah it’s definitley different. I guess it’s not really a cold approach but that’s what I do to limit rejection lol

I’m never really looking to fuck like that so weird that’s why I don’t really have to put in that effort it’s more just for socializing and entertainment

[–]dysonRing 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It could also be wanting a relationship basically putting yourself out there. Cold approach is brutal but sometimes there is no alternative,, if I see someone that is extremely attractive at the mall then orbiting and waiting for a smile can be considered creepy. So I approach with her looking at me coming over. But this approach happens whether there is a smile or not. I don't chicken out.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I respect that for sure I definitley get it, you’re right in probably always low key thinking of a relationship

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can i ask how old you are? Just curious

[–]tiposkBiology made me do it! 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I personally only approach if I’m almost certain it will work out because I fear the rejection but I’m trying to practice more cause why not

More men should be like this. Many men fail because they approach the wrong women at the wrong time.

I do agree with you, woman will be and really have to be a lot more subtle with there “pick up” because being outright that you want someone would probably have you labeled a slut pretty quick.

Us women spend too much time worrying about being labeled sluts while accepting this behavior in men.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Super true.

I used to rather be alone all night than put myself out there at a bar or something even tho I’m an outgoing person

Now as I’ve gotten older and more confident I’m at the point where I don’t fear rejection as much and it’s very freeing, but yeah I wish I didn’t fear that fallout of being labeled a hoe so much

[–]GhostTheEternal 5 points6 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

men have seemed to really like the novelty of not having to do the work

Yeah we love freebies. Lots of men will have sex with a girl who approaches him that he wouldn't actually date or consider for a relationship, and wouldn't have approached himself because he's not that into her. That's the gamble. You're much much much more likely to end up with a dude who is 'meh' about you.

Not many guys are going to spend 30 minutes of effort to get a free can of coke because coke doesn't have much value, but if coke are doing marketing and giving out free cans, sure! There's definitely a novelty getting something handed to you for free.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Usually my approach isn’t for sex, it’s for entertainment

But yeah I’m sure what you’re saying checks out but I wouldn’t really know

[–]TodTheRod01 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

For entertainment? So you're wasting time?? Not sure what you mean

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean kind of. If I’m in a bar hanging out I’ll find someone to talk to for the night, it’s not always to have sex or relationship but a lot of times it ends up with a date or number, but I try to have the attitude that it just is what it is, and I’m open about that, not every interaction has to be so intense

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol you're such a girl.

You don't approach in situations that have OBVIOUS high stakes.

Oh chile.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol you’re right hahaha but like If a dude doesn’t approach me he’s probably not that into me right? So why bother

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol no that's just you rationalizing putting the social burden on the other party.

Which is okay. You have like 50x less testosterone.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lol fair enough

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're a good sport. 👍

[–]GhostTheEternal 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Usually my approach isn’t for sex, it’s for entertainment

Yeah that's fine. If all you're doing is entertaining yourself and guys aren't getting angry at you when you walk away at the end then you've got nothing to lose.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah I usually make sure they’re in on it, they’re entertained by me too

[–]Kaisha001 4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

This is bullshit. Whether she approaches or not has no bearing on whether she is used.

Now if she's approaching men out of her league... sure. But it's the difference in league, not the approach.

[–]GhostTheEternal 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

This is bullshit.

Great opening line to a debate right there.

Now if she's approaching men out of her league... sure. But it's the difference in league, not the approach.

It's not about leagues. I don't want every girl "in my league", like most people I have particular things about people that I'm attracted to, whether it's hair colour, skin tone, style, particular facial features, body types, etc. A woman has no idea what a guy's particular type is, it's not enough for her to evaluate whether they're in the same league.

Women who approach men are going to have a higher percentage of guys who do not show long term interest.

[–]Kaisha001 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Women who approach men are going to have a higher percentage of guys who do not show long term interest.

Only because they are approaching men who are higher SMV than those that would otherwise approach them.

[–]GhostTheEternal 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

No, I literally made an argument as to why that's not the case. If you ignore it you concede it.

[–]Kaisha001 3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Your argument that it's about 'types' isn't correct. Sure, people have their types, but generally speaking attractiveness is fairly universal. Both men and women 'shoot up' when they approach.

https://theblog.okcupid.com/a-womans-advantage-82d5074dde2d

When we looked specifically at sending the first message, we found one striking habit: everyone’s a reacher, meaning people tend to reach out to someone more attractive than they are. To put a number on it, men are reaching out to women 17 percentile points more attractive, and women contact men who are 10 percentile points more attractive. This means that if a woman does nothing, her inbox will be filled with less attractive men.

And this is online where the point is to message and the fallout from rejection is minimal. IRL they're shooting even higher because he has to be really hot for them to justify the risk/reward.

If a woman sends the first message, everything changes in her favor. That’s because men tend to respond, a lot. In fact, women are 2.5x more likely to get a response than men if they initiate. If you’re a woman who sends the first message, not only are you more likely to get more responses in general, but you’ll be having conversations with more attractive guys.

This is just from OLD, but the same trends apply IRL. Men like it when women approach. It doesn't make women more (or less) likely to be 'used'. But if women are approaching (or being approached) by men significantly higher than their SMV, then it's more likely to be about easy sex than a LTR.

[–]GhostTheEternal 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

This is just from OLD, but the same trends apply IRL. Men like it when women approach.

Yes, as I've already stated several times men love a freebie. Lots and lots and lots of one night stands and ghosting is happening through OLD. Everything else you wrote is either untrue, irrelevant, or needs a citation.

[–]Kaisha001 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

or needs a citation

Since you've provided any proof at all for your assertions?

[–]GhostTheEternal 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

What have I asserted that you think needs a citation?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If you approach men don't be surprised when he keeps you around just for sex or validation

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I’m never looking for sex mostly just socializing and entertainment and I make that clear

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

As long as you don't pursue men romantically, because you will risk being used as he pretends to be more into you than he actually is.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitley. I’ve had that happen before for sure

[–]The_Meep_Lord 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Who approaches who makes zero impact on that.

He would use her either way.

That only happens for two reasons:

  1. He is out of your league.

  2. He is just not interested in a relationship with you.

If he wants something serious, you will get something serious.

[–]Perseus_the_BoldMGTOW 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women do approach, they just don't initiate. They are not passive when they feel attracted to a man. They have their way of getting noticed. It is not that they are gun shy, it's that they are not attracted to men who lack initiative, so after making themselves known and you do not initiate an interaction with her she will interpret your lack of action as either "not interested" or "too insecure" for her taste. Then she will walk.

Women love maintaining plausible deniability, that is why they wish that men initiate so that she feels passive in the encounter, even though she probably wiggled her way across 40 ft of bodies at the club to be in your close proximity for you to notice her. Women are always ambiguous because she is fishing for your initiative, she will only continue to be attracted if you engage and initiate because she wants to see if she matters to you. If you are paying her attention and noticing her.

Men who sit there stomping their feet demanding that women should initiate interactions with them are in fact so clueless about women in general that they don't even see how this is a turn off for the majority of women.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I say sexual option I mean "women at your level of attractiveness and positive attributes who will date and also happily have sex with" the guy. The idea is that if you're insistent on a 3 month or whatever waiting period but 20 more just like you are down on the first date or third...

...it makes no logical sense for him to keep dating you.

[–]Initial_Chemical7121No Pill 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s not really needed I guess, that’s why. But yeah I’ll admit if the rolls were reversed I’d be piss poor at approaching.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Ok_IndividualPurple Pill Man 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn just full on sexism here.

I'll agree that most women have garbage game but its because they don't really approach and society has upheld the opinion that men do the approaching and want a challenge or some other BS.

That doesn't mean women are incompetent. You need to stop hating women man its not gonna help you.

[–][deleted]  (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Gigamon2014No Pill 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Women like you make me laugh. You're type who is always weirdly offended that there seems guys who are attractive enough to regularly be approached. I feel the problem women like you have is that you don't (or most likely can't) actually associate with attractive men and thus such an action seems like an entirely foreign concept.

[–]pinkestpeachy 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Please don’t project your life & experiences onto others thanks

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lmfao so based

[–][deleted]  (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (12 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You're definitely letting me know how you feel, boyo.

[–]pinkestpeachy 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah? Is this conversation too hard for you to follow or something? That is what’s happening, yes. Pretty usual for a public debate forum.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You can cry in public, son, no shame.

[–]pinkestpeachy 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you have anything else? Perhaps something with actual humor?

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, this thread will suffice. "At OP, he wept." I call it.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]fakingandnotmakingit 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

It's not necessarily about incompetence. I think it's the fear of being used for sex.

I know it sounds stupid, and it's not something I personally advocate for, but growing up I was taught that men wanted sex. And that they would happily have sex with anyone. The moment they think you're an easy target you will be flirted with, had sex with and then left. And frankly considering this sub, they're not necessarily wrong.

So the logic is that a girl who approaches a guy, the guy wouldn't say yes because he wants to date her. He'd say yes so he can fuck her. If she's actually someone he'd date isn't part of the picture. The logic therefore goes that making the guy "work for it" at least filters out some of that because for some guys it wouldn't be worth the effort and awkwardness to approach if they aren't into you for just sex somehow. Is it correct logic? Probably not. Is it a good filter? Maybe. Depends on who you're talking too.

Personally I think girls approaching works better if they're social circle dating. After all they've by then passed several other people's "filters" and hopefully by then you'd know if they were people whos just there for sex or if they're actually interested in relationships. Also the last time a guy tried a pump and dump in a social circle context he poisoned the field for himself cause girls talk to each other.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 7 points8 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

It's a terrible filter. Women who "make men work for it" will weed out all men who have sexual options (high value/attractive) and screen in men who do not and men who are extremely experienced with women and who aren't opposed to deception and game playing.

It establishes an unhealthy frame for sex as something to be won or earned by him and as something he wants more.

No thanks lol. A good guy who has many sexual options will focus on those as a matter of common sense. The liar doesn't care lol and is up for unhealthy frames and game playing. And the loser is just happy to be there.

Here's a thought: if a woman has more to offer than that to someone, if she's a really good partner and attractive, she really doesn't have much to fear.

I'm not saying women need to put out immediately or whatever. But if they're feeling it they should let that feeling flow rather than curb it to follow some arbitrary timeline/effort scale, which happens a lot.

[–]fakingandnotmakingit 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't saying agree with it. I'm just saying that's why a majority of women don't approach. We're taught it makes us easy. And if men actually valued us as people instead of just someone to have sex with they'd pursue.

Women who "make men work for it" will weed out all men who have sexual options (high value/attractive)

Slight disagree there. I don't want a man who thinks of me as a sexual option in the first place. Therefore I'd say this is exactly why women think it works in the first place. Turn off people who see them as a "sexual" option rather than a "romantic" option.

It establishes an unhealthy frame for sex as something to be won or earned by him and as something he wants more.

I agree that its an unhealthy frame for sex. But if you're a relationship minded women you do need to filter out men who only want sex somehow.

It's not something I personally do as I only have sex that I want and know I won't regret regardless of the commitment. But lots of women only want sex if it's something that's leading up to a relationship. And that's one of their filters.

Men here say a lot about how having a lot of sex for a woman diminishes her value in the dating market. I personally disagree, but if a woman agrees with that then she will have to vet heavily and yes wait to have sex with someone. And that means putting a lot of barriers around sex. Which yes, means putting off guys with "sexual options". But if she doesn't she's a slut and promiscuous and "inconsistent" with sex and she "gave her sexual best to Chad" and she must "give me the exact same sex she gave him".

There's a lot of weird mixed messages for women around sex. If anything thats already an unhealthy sexual framework. The "making him work for it" is just something that address the already existing sexual framework. If we want to solve that we're going to have to get rid of the sexual framework in the first place. And that's... Pretty much all over the place.

And if ppd is any evidence, men don't want sex more. They want casual sex more. And women generally don't want casual sex more. Therefore... Yes there is a sexuality gap there.

Personally this is why I only date in my expanded social circles. I have also warm approached guys FYI. But only if I have the inherent safety net by the fact that he's in that social circle means he's slightly vetted and filtered already. Also some dudes are less likely to play around when it poisons all the girls in the group against them. Which it can btw.

Again I do not necessarily think it's a good filter. But it is a filter and one way to remove men who only want sex.

[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

All this work just to make sure he has a relationship with you. Until the woman gets bored…then she leaves him. How ironic. May as well just had sex with him if you were gonna get bored in the first place and not even started a relationship. Would have saved both parties time and heartbreak.

[–]fakingandnotmakingit 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Mate keeping the romance alive in a relationship past the honeymoon stage is work. We manage to do it by making sure we set aside romantic time specifically for us. Date night. Little moments of affection during the day.

Keeping romance and attraction alive and ensuring everyone is appreciative and feels appreciated stops people from emotionally checking out of a relationship. And once that happens you're in trouble.

And while I disagree with your overall defeatist tone and I congratulate you on your username.

[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Thank you, I like your username too. Where are you from? Australia?

[–]fakingandnotmakingit 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

New Zealand.

But also now I have an overwhelming urge to boot up my PC and play ffxiv.

[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cool! I’m in the US (Seattle area) but always been interested in New Zealand. Had a math teacher from there. And I’m working on X right now. I admit I haven’t played XIV yet but should.

[–]fakingandnotmakingit 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely play ffxiv.

It's what kept me sane during lockdown. The latest patch is sooo good

Edit: though probably not now. Apparently they sold too much copies that their servers couldn't physically handle the number of players.

[–]Barneysparky 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh gosh. The horrors of weeding out men who only want to do the old in and out. How will women cope with not being used?

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You're assuming that a man can't both romantically like a woman and want to have sex with her fast or when the urge arises.

It's the assumption the filter rests on and it's hilariously wrong.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is what is annoying about modern women.

They act like sex and love cannot co-exist at the same time. So they chase fuck boys for sex and then withhold sex from the one they love or refuse to give as much as they should as they are “not that kind of woman anymore” (starfish sex is worse then no sex lol).

If he is going to use you for sex, he is going to use your for sex. That is it. If you make him wait, you will push away dudes who love themselves as they will not accept being a object.

Men who use women for sex will still do so, they will just disappear after the third date sex instead of the first. Many use sex as a way to get validation, so they will wait and pretend otherwise.

Most women do not get used, they are just too boring. They are quick to demand a man being exiting, but said man will only stick around if she is also exciting.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yup.

Like I said, if you have more to offer than sex, you have nothing to fear.

Some women don't want to focus on improving themselves as a partner.

They want to be cherished and wooed while at the same time not "cherishing and wooing" the guy who is supposed to do that for them. So off the bat, pulling power moves and playing games and then wondering why omg why am I always falling for people who play games.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is why I hate modern dating.

Either we should accept people for who they are or expect everyone to strive to be perfect for there partner.

But now we expect men to change everything about who they are to have the privilege to accept a woman for who she is.

It is why men are such a mess really. It burns men out.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think people expect too much out of dating.

The amount of people you truly click with will be low. Luck/circumstance have a huge part to play during the early stages too.

I mean, I don't care. When women try to play games with me, I just bounce. Men need to learn how to bounce and say no.

[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Red Pill 101. Gotta pass those shit tests. Women will test you when they’re interested! They want to make sure you’re worth their time. Whether that be for the short term or the long term.

[–]GhostTheEternal 4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

their general skillset tends to necessitate you taking the reins anyway

That's our gender role. Women are already stepping outside of their gender roles by approaching in the first place, and it's hard to not come across as assertive and masculine when doing so.

Some women don't want to conform to gender roles and that's fine, but the vast majority do and that's where most of our experiences are coming from. I've been hit on by masculine assertive women and it's a huge turn-off, I'll take a girl hovering awkwardly over that any day.

[–]HOLYREGIME 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Some women don’t want to conform to gender roles

MOST women don’t want to conform to gender roles and encourage men not too either. They often desire a guy who can cook, clean, take care of the kids.

I’ve been hit on by masculine assertive women and it’s a huge turn off

She’s probably unattractive. Women often approach men who are well out of their league. They are the only guys worth approaching. Women have enough options to look in BBs direction and have them flock. If a woman full out approached you, there is likely a looks gap. If your favorite female celebrity approached you, I don’t think you would think it’s a turn off. If prime Angelina Jolie approaches you with a tomb raider outfit, it would make absolutely no difference if she was masculine and assertive.

[–]GhostTheEternal 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

MOST women don’t want to conform to gender roles and encourage men not too either.

I don't think that's true at all. The vast majority of gender roles are currently being adhered to by both men and women, and there's pushback when people don't adhere to them. People get political about it, but effeminate men that want to stay home and raise the children and send their wife out to deal with noises downstairs aren't exactly at the top of the last of men that women want. They only appeal to a tiny minority of women.

She’s probably unattractive.

Her masculinity is very unattractive.

If your favorite female celebrity approached you, I don’t think you would think it’s a turn off.

Approaching me doesn't automatically make her a "masculine assertive woman".

If prime Angelina Jolie approaches you with a tomb raider outfit, it would make absolutely no difference if she was masculine and assertive.

Sure it would. The masculinity would be very unattractive, but not enough of course for me to say no to a woman that is ENTIRELY out of my league looks wise and the most attractive woman I'd ever sleep with in my life. That's a bad example.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] -3 points-2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

You're conflating the type of approach an aggressive promiscuous woman uses (more direct, still pretty sloppy and awkward most times) with how women generally approach (which is way more indirect, navel gazing, and dawdling)

It's way cuter than the type of approach you said turns you off. They don't come off as masculine at all

[–]GhostTheEternal 5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Right. As I said, I'll take an awkward hover over an aggressive approach any day. Your argument was that the majority of women approach badly, they don't, they do it in a way that you think is A+ cute which allows a man to not have his masculinity challenged.

Indirect, navel gazing, dawdling are all competent strategies for a woman who wants to appear feminine when approaching.

[–]dysonRing 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

A woman approaching can be extremely feminine, the best ones I have seen ask if they can sit on your lap. (Of course they are dancers and approach for money but IT is feminine)

[–]Atlas-B-ShrugginSTATE LINE STATUS: CROSSED 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

hahahahahhahaahhahahahahah

[–]GhostTheEternal 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Asking to sit in a guy's lap on approach is NOT feminine AT ALL. That's aggressive as fuck.

[–]dysonRing 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Potatoes Potahtoh women can be aggressive and feminine one does not preclude the other

[–]GhostTheEternal -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

women can be aggressive and feminine

Absolutely not. "Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with women and girls.".

Approaching a man aggressively is not generally associated with women, it's associated with men and is absolutely masculine. Any girl that does it necessarily lowers her femininity.

[–]dysonRing 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Potato potatoh the real masculine thing was her asking me to sit on her lap. We are never going to reach an agreement

[–]TrueStormsWill not elaborate 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

A stripper doing her job at work is not “a woman approaching”

[–]dysonRing 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Of course it is approaching, approaching for the wrong reasons (my wallet) but it has all the hallmarks

1) takes guts

2) low probability of success

3) feels amazing when they snarl a whale

4) feels like shit when they are rejected (often)

I legitimate respect them they make red pillers look like cowards

[–]TrueStormsWill not elaborate 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol. It’s not at all what people are referring to on the topic of “women approaching” on this sub

[–]dysonRing 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well this topic in particular as stated by OP is about skill, not about social norms.

Strippers don't beta orbit, they know how to escalate, they are int top form selecting, they take care of their bodies. It is all stuff that has been circling the seduction forums for decades.

And for the record I hate being approached, but respect it. I still prefer approaching them.

[–]TrueStormsWill not elaborate 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That’s nice that you respect strippers

[–]dysonRing 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

True that is why I date them, I am literally a unicorn to them because 99/100 the men they are with don't respect their job at all, and it destroys their relationship, sometimes very violently.

That said I am getting better at vetting them, some dates are more an extension of the hustle where I am still a walking wallet. Luckily they are identified earlier and earlier, and you can't beat 100% success rate at getting a date lol.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They do approach badly if you were grading them on the efficacy of their seduction.

And you're incorrect.

Don't think there aren't women out there with girl game so fierce you won't even realize what happened its so seamless, and feminine af too.

Inefficiency and awkwardness aren't feminine lol

[–]GhostTheEternal 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They do approach badly if you were grading them on the efficacy of their seduction.

You gave them an A+ in cute. Are you rejecting girls that are A+ cute to you because they're inefficient or awkward? If you're not rejecting them for it, how is it not efficacious? Because it took them 2 minutes of hovering first?

And you're incorrect.

You don't just get to assert than on its own. It must be connected to an argument otherwise it's worthless. This is really bad debating.

Don't think there aren't women out there with girl game so fierce you won't even realize what happened its so seamless, and feminine af too.

You made the argument that women who make A+ cute awkward approaches are BAD at approaching. I didn't say there are no females that are experts at seduction that operate with alternative strategies, I defended the awkward A+ cute approach as a valid strategy that isn't BAD like you asserted.

Inefficiency and awkwardness aren't feminine lol

I never said they were feminine. They are valid options for a woman who wants to avoid being masculine, because they are not associated with masculinity like some of the other approach options are.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I call bullshit. I have given dudes kisses and lap dances and months/years later had them say "I had no idea you liked me like that!"

[–]mmpro55 16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure that speaks more towards your own attractiveness than the ignorance of men.

If an attractive woman does something even remotely nice, men will go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that she's actually feeling them.

[–]Master-Edward-3 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn reads kind of like a burn 🔥 there..from a volcano. 🌋

[–]Master-Edward-3 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn reads kind of like a burn 🔥 there..from a volcano. 🌋

[–]Master-Edward-3 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn reads kind of like a burn 🔥 there..from a volcano. 🌋

[–]Ok_IndividualPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. It really depends on the personality of the man. This is just a stereotype

[–]TEREKIKI 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You haven’t met me darling

[–]evanstown21 -2 points-1 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Kind of, yes, but this is purposeful and not a mistake. If I do show a little interest, it will be very subtle and I do want the guy to take over the reigns. If he is unable to read the signals, I weeded out someone that would need outright blatant direction for the rest of the relationship. I want a guy that takes initiative and can read my type of subtle communication. If he can’t take a hint, we’re not a good fit. And you might say “men aren’t mind readers,” but if other guys can pick up on it and you can’t, then my system is working in picking out guys that are especially good at reading subtle cues.

[–]cvslengthbucketlist 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn't say that indicates the guy is in need of taking blatant direction, that's kind of a different situation. When you're strangers guys are more mindful of not assuming a girl's interested so as not to unintentionally creep her out, when you're in a relationship that fear doesn't exist because you can take risks without making her uncomfortable.

[–]evanstown21 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

If you’re not confident enough to strike up a conversation in a way that’s not creepy, that’s a different problem.

[–]cvslengthbucketlist 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

By "creepy" (or "annoying") I mean a guy being labelled that way for striking up a conversation that's unwanted in the first place, not a guy talking in a creepy way. As in the interaction itself, not the way it's executed, if that makes sense.

There are plenty of guys who actually pick up on "hints" but don't act on them because they err on the side of the safe interpretation that some women's hints are other women's false positives. So that some women end up mistaking consideration for lack of confidence, despite it being common knowledge that there's a huge diversity of opinion among women on whether they like being approached by strangers and what constitutes flirting vs. being friendly.

[–]evanstown21 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oof. That’s rough for those guys. I guess part of what makes social interactions difficult sometimes is that you gotta be embedded in the culture to know what’s going on. You can definitely come on too strong or not enough depending on the culture of that location

[–]cvslengthbucketlist 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah knowing culture can be a very helpful tool, but even for natives at the end of the day there's still an element of guesswork involved. We're dealing with individuals and individual personalities, after all.

[–]Prismatic_SymphonySomewhere in between 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So that some women end up mistaking consideration for lack of confidence

Bruh. I got this megaphone for you so you can repeat for everyone in the back. 📣

It's sad, but many of us guys got the message as kids that no means no and respect a woman's choice, etc., and we're good citizens about it, but then when we're respectful we're they think we lack confidence. Oy vey.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

The guys who can, like me, are mostly just womanizers.

And oft times super subtle cues are a red flag for terrible communication skills.

Put it this way, a chick who has cues that are:subtle" to the point of a third party observer not knowing if the chick is into me, that isn't a chick I'd ever take seriously as gf material.

[–]evanstown21 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

That seems like just you though? Someone who can read body language isn’t necessarily a womanizer. One of the things I love about my long term relationship is that he can tell if I’m happy or upset and we can read each other without explicitly saying so. That’s part of chemistry and a relationship that’s important. If you look uncomfortable and are giving off negative body language and the guy can’t take a hint, that’s a red flag

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say necessarily....but high correlation because of the amount of experience required to consistently read those cues. Hint: they aren't universal, usually fairly unique, and usually more below the radar than the woman thinks.

And yeah having solid nonverbals is cool. You know what's better? Both verbals and non verbals down solid. No contest. Having both is most important because assuming someone should just know something that you haven't stated is to take someone for granted.

Your last example isn't what I'm talking about. Clear negative body language != subtle.

[–]evanstown21 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Well, you gotta strike a balance. But if a guy needs blatant direction aka the girl saying “I want you to ask me out,” he’s probably not a good fit for me. When I mean subtle, I mean subtle for men but blatant to any woman watching. If she ends a conversation very slowly with “well, it’s getting late. I hope I get to see you again…” and wait a few seconds before moving to leave, that’s usually the cue for him to ask for her number. If he doesn’t ask for her number, I think it’s safe to assume that he might not be interested.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh if that's what you mean by subtle then, first of all, that's not subtle to any non sperg guy, and second, I take it all back since the level of communication you're talking about isn't that subtle lol

[–]evanstown21 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

It’s PPD! You think PPD guys can pick up on that or any kind of eye contact that is more than a little friendly? It’s subtle for people who don’t get out much, and more than enough for socially competent men.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I read your example as the opposite of subtle tbh lol. So, yeah...my fault.

[–]evanstown21 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Hmm I think part of what makes PPD so interesting is that I forget that the assumptions are always different. What’s blatant and easy to understand for one person is an absolute mystery to another. But I guess the point I’m trying to make is the women have their own way of dropping real blatant signals that is different from a guy. A guy might just straight up say the words “hey, can I get your number?” But a woman would do this weird roundabout thing that is comparatively subtle but still really easy to understand. It’s a culture difference.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

If the roundabout thing is like her saying :hope to see you again: vs ;let me get your number;

...

Then lmfao to me those two are roughly equivalently blaringly loud. Like the one is dialed up to 11 but the other is 10.

When I say subtle I mean....

....okay like this one super hot girl I was talking to kept sort of averting her gaze and apparently signaling disinterest while I was talking to her. So first 20 seconds of interaction I'm getting discouraged.

Second 20 seconds I notice the speed and jerky nature of the aversions signal like...repulsion. and hey my confidence like, she can't possibly think I'm ugly.

About another minute passes and I crack it. She's averting her gaze because she's overwhelmed attracted, and nervous, because every time her head turns when she does it, it tilts lower, and when I look away to where she thinks I can't know, her eyes are dead on my face.

So the next time I did it, I turned my head really fast and caught her staring and she let out a shocked laugh and I kissed her. And boy was I right.

Like to me that's subtle. Where if you saw us talking maybe 5 or 10 feet away you'd think she was absolutely not vibing with me

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[–]TheBookOfSeilYou are the spoon 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Uhhh what? Its not true that women don't approach? Who rendered that verdict? Most women do not approach. Few do, and more but still not very many do it in specific situations or contexts, like when they're horny and the guy is attractive.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The overall approach isn't efficacious just because they get high marks on the cute factor. There are other factors. Average it out.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ya, read the OP again.

  1. The type of escalation you're describing is literally covered in the OP.

  2. And hey...maybe you are some kind of chad. Nice bro.

[–]michael1962-01 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women approach. Covert and even open and blunt.

Just not all men.

[–]Willow-girlDairy Queen 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In my day, a young woman would be chastised for being too "forward." She might even be labeled "boy crazy"! Girls OTOH were praised for "playing hard to get" and "holding out."

[–]mathisfun100 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I never liked the concept of cold approaching women you see on the street - PUA-type approaches. I mean, if your endgame is just sex and you cold approach a dozen women, you may get it, but for the sake of monogamy, commitment, and marriage, you are unlikely to find a good partner for the long-term with this method.

I much prefer meeting people through a mutual interest event to know there is some compatibility which will serve as the foundation for the initial conversation. It can be a religious-sponsored event, an environmental club, a political rally - really anything that could show that you share interests.

[–]Zerofication 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

The probability of a woman approaching a man depends mostly on three factors: a. Her testosterone levels, b. Her age, c. Whether the man is a chad or not.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Too reductive. A. Is nearly irrelevant IMO.

We need to add D. The circumstances of the venue, E. How secure she is with herself F. If the man, Chad or not, looks approachable and inviting.

[–]Zerofication 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I have added factors that affect the probability the most, so ofc it's going to be reductive. And no, E and F have minimal effect compared to have I have mentioned.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Not really.

Her age is only relevant if she experiences a big decline in looks as she ages, which actually means that G. Her own looks, is the salient variable.

They did a study on this. When given the choice between youth and beauty, men chose beauty every time.

Like, a 22 year old 9 will probably be an 8 or higher when she's 40 and will still have a lot of quality suitors.

And lol looking approachable or creating an environment where you are easy to approach is probably more important than looks.

If you're loudly having a blast with your boys near cute women vs being a super hot lone wolf pouting at the bar, the boys at the bar get the approach 8 times out of 10 vs SuperChad

[–]Zerofication 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Her age is relevant due to her experience of approaching men, and not her looks which is not positively correlated with her approaching men. The importance of being approachable is debatable though.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Again her looks will determine that. If she's hot she likely won't have much experience at all, and even if she's average the amount of experience required to get proficient still won't be there.

It's debatable if you lack a lot of field experience.

[–]LopsidedSpend8202 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're loudly having a blast with your boys near cute women vs being a super hot lone wolf pouting at the bar, the boys at the bar get the approach 8 times out of 10 vs SuperChad.

That have never happened in my experience where me & my group of friend went out and just having our fun like beach volleyball or be it raves/parties and I am getting approached , not that I expect now in my life and no I'm not missing signs cause I never see anyone noticing me or had someone initiate a talk with me but some of my attractive friends had gotten approached & given signals be it at the time of having a blast or just us hanging out at bar with us quietly talking among ourselves. It's always the same guys getting approached.

[–]LopsidedSpend8202 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you're saying any guy not getting approached or signals (as described by you) is because he doesn't look approachable & inviting? So it's not about looks? Cause why else will they approach a guy even if he is approachable & inviting if nothing piques their interest? and you always gotta cross threshold for a woman to see you in sexual light at least for attractive women.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not solely. There are a ton of factors, not just one...

[–]LopsidedSpend8202 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Factors as in?

So say there's a guy whose not attractive at all but is fun to be around (you know as in Center of the Attention kinda way) and is having a blast and also looks approachable & inviting (as you put it) and yeah also in the large enough crowd with everyone there to enjoy themselves , so you're saying that guy gonna get approached or given signals by attractive women? or any woman? Cause I have a friend whose fat enough to be called overweight and is actually the one carrying all the fun on his back but f**k even I do better than him and I'm no way close to in any capacity get the kinda attention my attractive friends get. Are they getting sucked off wherever they go? No, but they getting ignals & approached just because they happens to be attractive and women want to give them at least a chance to see if they're any fun to be around or not, if they shot themselves on their foot after that than that's on them but still they're the ones getting approached & getting signals and it's definitely all to do with being attractive enough to be outta of the league of most women if they have any semblance of personality and for women to make n attempt to try to find out if they're and to get them else they've no chance.

(With very attractive women it's tricky cause some will and some will not do all this things)

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

It's weird what you're defining as a "good approach," honestly. Apparently the factors are (1) it has to be completely unambiguous, and (2) it has to escalate fast. Have you considered that those are not necessarily the things people want out of their flirtation experience?

Put it this way, the caricature of how a creepy "bets male niceguy" approaches women, wirh a lot of lingering, hovering, and finally action/escalation attempt = women approaching.

You're defining this as a "bad approach" but like... it can be nice? You get to enjoy slowburn tension and flirtation. I've been on both sides and it was nice. Like maybe we could have gotten to the sex a little bit faster, but we got there in a reasonably short amount of time and the anticipation made it better.

Your complaint is that women aren't approaching you in a way that makes it unambiguously clear they want sex right away, which is not the same thing as women being "incompetent" at approaching men.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

Actually I break down the elements of seduction Aka game in the OP and neither 1 or 2 are listed as such so I believe that's your invention.

And I never said anything about a universal time limit or whatever. Nor did I say anything about wanting sex right away.

You can see when someone is making misteps and errors in their own desired course of action. Even if their idea of seduction was taking 16 hours or 48 or 130 hours, the point is that their general ineptitude would multiply that by a factor of 3 or 4.

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Okay but you're still saying that less time and less ambiguity = better approach, and I disagree with that.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I'm not.

I'm literally saying that whatever HER preferred time scale is, her incompetence makes her take longer.

If you take longer than your preference that = inefficient.

Understand now?

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Okay, but why are you so sure all these women are taking longer than their preferred time scale?

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Let's take an awkward guy approaches a girl. But before he does so, he kinda dawdles nervously for 5 minutes.

He wanted to approach sooner but his incompetence in the area of emotional control prolonged the time.

Same principle

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

So your imaginary awkward guy is taking longer than he'd like. How does that prove that all these women are taking longer than they'd like?

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

You seem to not really understand either what efficiency is or not believe that someone can see inefficiency in a social process.

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lmao most people don't really care about "efficiency" when they socialize. That's an insane thing to prioritize.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ya no you're right people love wasting time...

[–]dysonRing 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean who wants to waste time? I have seen the pros do it and none of them want the slow burn. The best ones know how to quickly escalate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/rn8ckf/comment/hpth7w9/

[–]mistresswhat 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Again, how does that prove his point that most women are taking longer than they'd like? Strippers are being efficient because they're at work and they want to be efficient.

[–]dysonRing 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

OK, fine we are probably debating two different things you are concentrating on the flirtation and I get it, I flirted everyday with a married coworker (that was in HR) for months, it was fun and exciting but the absolute key thing is I did not want to escalate, and she might have resented that I didn't.

Cold approaching requires a goal, be it sex, relationship, a date, or a VIP dance. You will have to flirt to get that goal.

[–]IcarusKiki22F -3 points-2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Women dont approach bc it sets a precedent that she’s going to do the work and lead in the relationship and the man can sit back while she puts the effort into the relationship.

[–]OhyarlysmilesI'm the guy in my profile pic pill[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Whereas the man should do all that instead? Huh?

[–]IcarusKiki22F -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No but if you are a woman it makes sense. Of course the woman approaching benefits the man but most men will approach anyways so why would it benefit a woman to do it?

[–]Prismatic_SymphonySomewhere in between 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It merely sets a precedent that she's interested. That's just the approach, and doesn't have a bearing on how the rest of the relationship will proceed. Even if a woman approaches me first, I assume that she's expecting more intiative and work from me in the long run.

[–]IcarusKiki22F 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That’s what IOIs are for. Approaching is taking the masculine role.

[–]Prismatic_SymphonySomewhere in between 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe, but again, just for that opening moment. I'm guessing (I could be wrong) that most men still will expect that they'll have to do the masculine things after that point. Most guys aren't expecting that they can just sit back and not participate. (Unless he's really not that into her and would just date her for sexual access. But if he's into her he'll do his part.)

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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