~ archived since 2018 ~

Women are not the romantic gender, men are.

June 8, 2022
203 upvotes

Let me start by defining romance in the simplest possible term.

Romance is all about making the loved one feel special.

For instance if I gift flowers to a woman that seems like a romantic gesture. If I then proceed to gift flowers to all other women around me all romance is lost because I do not make any of those women feel special (West Elm Caleb).

Women are considered as being a more romantic gender and I think this is simply not the truth.

Sure, women do demand/expect more romance, but that doesn't make one romantic.

Delivering romance makes one romantic.

And guys are the ones jumping through loops and hoops to make women feel special. If you google "romantic gestures" you will get a bunch of lists of what guys can do to make women feel special. Guys have to prove to women that they find them special.

And while some women are romantic and will make an effort to make their date or BF feel special. I find that most of the women (certainly a large majority of single women) take a very "I'll just sit on my butt" approach.

And I think that this makes a lot of BB's feeling biter when they find out their GF/wife which made them wait had one night stands in the past.

It's not just sex, but the fact that they had to spent 1,2,3 months making her feel special and proving themselves and she gave them way worse treatment because she had spent that time just sitting on her butt.

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[–]hsvgamer199Purple Pill Man 55 points56 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I like romance within an established relationship. I don't enjoy the whole song and dance involved in flirting and asking out strangers on dates. It feels like wining and dining a company rep on a business trip. It's a lot of work with few "buyers." Anyone who has worked in sales understands how exhausting it is.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 14 points15 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You do have to get to know somebody to feel they are special.

Being romantic toward somebody we didn't get to even know is dishonest by default...

[–]hsvgamer199Purple Pill Man 13 points14 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I definitely agree. In my case, I'm burnt out and not really interested in anyone who doesn't return the same amount of effort. That's most people unfortunately.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 17 points18 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Same.

I'm kinda dumbstruck that so many women in their 30's which want to get married do not make any effort whatsoever.

But maybe that's why they are single.

[–]wiwoo 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

People make an effort when they’re younger. That effort isn’t reciprocated so they learn not to, and then when they’re older and effort is most needed, they don’t have the emotional energy for it.

I’m a guy and I can relate. My age makes me less desirable than I was when I was younger. In theory I should be willing to put in more effort, to make up for that, but I can’t - those subsystems are worn down already.

I’d bet the people you’re talking about are similar - they made an effort but either it was directed at the wrong people or random chance spoiled it, and like me, they’re used up with little left to give.

I have my online dating filters set from 10 years younger to 5 years older, and I’ve got to say, only the younger people show any kind of enthusiasm / optimism. The people who I interact with who are around my age are often terse to the point of rudeness, some are outright combative and hostile from the jump. Age fucks us all up, to varying degrees - and then when you take out all the people who are happily coupled, the older the dating pool gets it becomes just a bunch of fucked up people. Every now and then a happy couple ends without completely ruining someone and they’ll make it onto the older dating market, unjaded and psychologically healthy - but rare - and gone in a flash..

[–]Diddy_1978 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I literally ask my tinder matches ‘so, everyone our age is messed up. What’s wrong with you that you are handsome and single at your age?’

[–]wiwoo 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Gotten any memorable answers?

[–]Diddy_1978 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I usually volunteer what’s wrong with me. Some get offended by my question. Most try to deflect. Some will tell you that they struggle with mental health or disclose some medical issues, past relationship drama.

[–]FireCaesar23 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What's your age?

[–]wiwoo 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mid thirties

[–]God_Hand_97641 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Good post. Basically men have to be the producers of romance, and women are the consumers.

Kind of bizarre when you think about it, that women are widely considered "the more romantic ones" given this.

Like if you have a musician and then a music listener, and the person listening to the music is considered to be the more musical one.

Also the music listener does not produce and is not expected to produce anything, so there's basically nothing to criticize... whereas every wrong note that the musician hits is an offense.

This is all a tad bit hyperbolic, though. It's not like I've never received a few wonderful romantic gestures before. But on the whole, yeah... it's a very unbalanced dynamic.

[–]wtknight[M] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Automod, please. Replies to CMV posts must challenge the OP's view.

[–]Sleepypiven 57 points58 points  (71 children) | Copy Link

Most of my friends want a romantic guy but they don’t understand that being romantic is like a dance where you need to be two of it to work. Romantism was never about men being romantic and giving no stop alone. Most women don’t want to be romantic, at least I know I don’t.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 37 points38 points  (66 children) | Copy Link

Romeo and Juliet were considered as archetypal young lovers and...

Still believing Juliet to be dead, he drinks the poison. Juliet then awakens and, discovering that Romeo is dead, stabs herself with his dagger and joins him in death.

...this is the greatest romantic gesture and both of them do it.

Now I'm not suggesting that people should go around dying for love. The point is that both of them did it for each other.

Modern romance are all about men simping for women, while women don't do anything.

And then they say that guys aren't romantic because they hate romantic movies :)

[–]LouisdeRouvroy 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Now I'm not suggesting that people should go around dying for love. The point is that both of them did it for each other.

It's precisely the opposite: they both die because of their selfcenterism. It's actually one point of the play to show how stupid and selfish youngsters are, to the point of death.

They don't die for each other, that would be dying to keep the other alive, à la Di Caprio in Titanic. They both die because they both are so self-centered that they think they cannot live without whatever it is they want, here, someone they met a few weeks prior.

[–]hemaristhysbe 22 points23 points  (53 children) | Copy Link

Modern romance are all about men simping for women, while women don't do anything.

Obviously you’ve never swallowed semen. There is no grander gesture.

ETA geez, was a joke, fellas

[–]Im_The_Daiquiri_Man 22 points23 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Not saying that’s a picnic, but if you’ve tasted (and smelled) some of the pussies I’ve had to go down (and stay down) on, you probably wouldn’t pat your self on the back for swallowing a salty load.

[–]Sorcha16Purple Pill Woman 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men can be equally as disguising. Not trying to whatabout its just mind blowing to me that there are people that don't bother to wash their junk/lady junk

[–]rosesonthefloor 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You don’t have to go down on a pussy you don’t want to go down on!

[–]jobbo321 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Equally, you don't have to suck a dick you don't want to suck.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 8 points9 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I'm BI...

[–]plumtastic 1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

So have you swallowed semen for your own pleasure? Does anyone?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 9 points10 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Oh so when a woman swallows some semen it's a sacrifice.

When man swallows some semen he does it for his pleasure?

Also I had never swallowed semen, and women had never swallowed my semen.

A guy had swallowed my semen to make me feel good, so guys are more romantic. Suck it :P

Actually no, I'd rather have a guy suck it, because they put effort into it.

And he will probably swallow too.

[–]plumtastic -1 points0 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

So, no you haven't. Just asking a simple question, no need to read that much into it, I wasn't implying any of that.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I had swallowed my own semen.

I know you didn't, just used the opportunity for LOLs 😁

[–]plumtastic -1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Next time make sure to eat a some pineapple for a few days prior 😅

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

But I like the bittery salty taste just fine 😋

[–]FFTzzz 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A guy had swallowed my semen to make me feel good, so guys are more romantic. Suck it :P

Checkmate, atheists!!!

[–]ToniNikki 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So your one experience makes men more romantic. 'Maybe it's the women you picked', same excuse said often to women.

What is your perception of romance to a man, besides swallowing his cum?

[–]NotARussianBot1984 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes because i enjoy pleasing my partners. And i expect thr same

[–]plumtastic 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What kind of pleasure is it to watch someone do something they dislike? The ejaculating partner gets no physical sensation from it. It's an ego boost at the swallowers expense. I can understand it if the swallower fakes enjoyment to the point it's believable but than isn't it just dishonest? They think that you're swallowing it because you think they're so hot, but in reality you're just trying to make them happy. It's patronising in a way. I'd be mortified if my partner swallowed a body fluid they had to suppress disgust for just to please me. It never sat right with me, but you do you.

[–]NotARussianBot1984 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I will

[–]LouisdeRouvroy1 points [recovered] (26 children) | Copy Link

Obviously you’ve never swallowed semen. There is no grander gesture.

Well at worst it's a bad 15 seconds, like swallowing medecine. Try licking pussy, that never ending acid oozing gnash that women demand men lick for 10 minutes if they want a chance of having their semen swallowed....

[–]WYenginerdWY 9 points10 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Here's a cheat code - look those women in the eye and tell them their vagina is a nasty "never ending acid oozing gash" and I pinky promise you won't have to lick any more of them.

[–]LouisdeRouvroy1 points [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

tell them their vagina is a nasty "never ending acid oozing gash" and I pinky promise you won't have to lick any more of them.

It's to noone's surprise that women do not like reality be described to them.
Hell, most of them think they're a prize...

[–]byebyecivilrights 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so date men

[–]Short-FingersPurple Pill Man 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There were 2 women with bad pussy stank I went down on. One other one was after we went to the beach in the ocean lol, so I understood that one.

But the rest of the pussy I ate was magnificent. If you don’t like giving a woman pleasure like that you might be gay.

[–]LouisdeRouvroy -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Funny you didn't say that to the woman who doesn't like giving head and swallowing semen.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

If you actually think women's vaginas ooze acid, may I suggest sucking cock instead

[–]LouisdeRouvroy -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it, it's a fact. That's why their panties get discolored over time.

Funny how when someone says that swallowing semen is the greatest gesture, no woman disagree. When the situation is flipped, they get all defensive and shocked, as if their genitals is not exactly what I said it is.

Rule for thee but not for me. The feminine way of life.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Dark chocolate and tomatoes have acidity levels in the same range as a healthy vagina. The acidity is not the issue. The issue is you not liking pussy.

[–]LouisdeRouvroy -1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Noone said acidity was the issue.

[–]AngelxEyez 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you dont like pussy just say so bro

[–]rosesonthefloor 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I mean… I’ve licked several, and they’re great. Pussies in general are just really fun to play with 😍

Maybe you’re just not into giving oral…?

[–]LouisdeRouvroy 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, if there is no grander gesture than swallowing semen, then what should we call licking pussy? That's the whole question, regardless of personal preferences and actions.

[–]rosesonthefloor 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Licking pussy is more akin to sucking dick imo. Both involve mouth and hands for a sustained period.

Swallowing semen would be more like swallowing squirt I guess?

But I also don’t agree with the original premise that swallowing semen is some big thing though, so maybe the point is moot.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I mean if somebody thinks that sucking cock or licking pussy is some great sacrifice then maybe... stay single?

[–]rosesonthefloor 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol completely agree.

[–]social_mulemgtow 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Obviously you’ve never swallowed semen. There is no grander gesture.

R.I.P. your inbox.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Romeo and Juliet is a comedy mocking teenage romance.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a tragedy.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And a comedy.

Tragedy is comedy.

It is why the first few acts are pure comedy.

[–]SUS_pended 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Modern romance are all about men simping for women, while women don't do anything

and still they choose the guy that doesn't give a shit about them instead of the simp lol

[–]LillthOfBabylon 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Romeo and Juliet were considered as archetypal young lovers and...

Romeo was an unstable 18 year old. Juliet was 12 and I think her cousin's fiance.

[–]gopher_glitz 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Romance is something advertising sold to women to get men to spend money on shit people didn't need to make other people rich.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 24 points25 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think women are the actual sexual deviants of the species and men were the emotional romantics.

But our culture raised us to be different for the sake of what the other gender wanted more or less.

Men are the ones who marry over and over, women are usually done after one marriage and often only marry for money. Women are the ones who love bdsm and shit, men more or less just want the sex itself and just appeal to what women want. Men are the ones who invented poetry and tend to be obsessed with virginity and courting, while women tend to be all about having hoe phases and only settling down when they want kids or need security.

Sure, there are all generalizations. But it is eye opening when you realize that the baseless things we were told about the genders when young is a lie.

[–]SUS_pended 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

shhhh.

don't say the truth. it's not allowed here

[–]NotQuiteHapa 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Alluring take but not true imo. Men are socialized away from BDSM shit. We have our own slut shame going on where we're only allowed to express our sexuality in safe and pre-approved ways lest we be seen as dangerous or weak. And women are plenty poetic and romantic. I think you just haven't encountered enough female artists.

[–]Snoo_165361 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Men are romantics pretending to be pragmatic.

Women are pragmatics pretending to be romantic.

[–]wtknight[M] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Automod, please. Replies to CMV posts must challenge the OP's view.

[–]wtknight 8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I think that the idea is that, since women enjoy receiving romance more than men often enjoy giving romance, women are "more romantic". Frankly, most men wouldn't bother with romance if they knew they were going to have sex with a woman even without that romance.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If sex is all said women has to offer yes.

But what if said women is romantic, and makes guy feel special?

[–]River_Archer_32 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

everybody likes free shit

[–]wtknight 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Which is why women aren’t thought of as “romantic” by most manosphere men. However, if a woman is really into a guy and simping hard for him, then she can be just as romantic.

Most women won’t simp for a guy like this though because they see themselves as having options, hence less giving of romance and more receiving of it.

[–]River_Archer_32 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

However, if a woman is really into a guy and simping hard for him, then she can be just as romantic.

never seen this. women are perpetual recievers.

[–]wtknight 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’ve had women simp for me. I’m sure other men whom a woman at one time has considered valuable has experienced this too.

There have actually been posts in subs like AskWomen where women have talked about what they did at one time to simp for a man whom they were really into.

[–]River_Archer_32 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

good to know. the search continues

[–]ToniNikki 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men won't give or keep giving unless they receive...sex.

[–]techr0nin 38 points39 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The truth is being romantic is what you do when there is a value gap between the man and the woman. You are essentially signalling that while you are lower in value you are willing to commit more effort and resources for the right to mate. Attractive men don’t need to be romantic, and when they do, a little goes a looooong way. The concept of a man that is both attractive and romantic that you typically see in media is IMO a culturally constructed superstimuli meant to monetize female fancy. Men that want to use this strategy should be fully aware of why they are doing what they are doing and do so judiciously, because the line between romantic gestures and simping is blurry at best.

The female version of basic romanticism is just giving the guy physical intimacy, sex/bj/massage etc. But I have also met women that would give me various gifts, pay for surprise trips, clean my apartment and so forth. In this case it’s the same thing — women are trying to bridge the SMV gap by going above and beyond, whether consciously or subconsciously.

[–]Spiritual_Age_4992 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The most accurate explanation

[–]Kay_LoreRomantic Realist 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you think this is also true for couples in a LTR?

[–]techr0nin 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The basic economic principle with regards to the couple power dynamics holds true, but the value calculus becomes much broader and nuanced in LTR. Loyalty, integrity, compatibility, shared values, earning potentials, parental potentials, so on and so forth, alot more things get rolled into the calculus.

[–]MR_Shigitoshi1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Valentine's day is a perfect example. A man is graded on his performance like judges at an Olympic diving event. The woman? She has to 1) show up and 2) reward him with sex if he behaves properly.

The day at work women all compete to see who "won", whose out Simped the most

[–]wtknight[M] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Automod, please. Replies to CMV posts must challenge the OP's view.

[–]Lysa_Bell 20 points21 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

It all depends on who you are as a person. I love romance. So I gifted my bf a custom candle, his favourite donuts and a set of nudes of me for valentines. His was of being romantic is to order me pizza.

It's about understanding each others love languages. We are both very physical so touching, cuddling, holding etc is our go to way to show love and that is romantic to both of us.

My second love language is quality time, so I feel very romanced when we spend time together. Going on walks, puzzles, cooking together, eating together etc.

His is words. So I make sure to tell him often how much he means to me, how proud I am of him, how well he's doing, which parts of him I absolutely adore etc.

Just figure out how to make each other happy and that is romantic. Romance should just be something that fills you with love for the other and not just something generic because you can't figure out what your partner actually needs to feel loved.

[–]rosesonthefloor 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly it. Romance imo isn’t about gifts, but gestures designed to make your partner feel special and cared for! From both parties.

[–]Express-Fig-5168Purple Pilled "Stacylite" 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is bizarre to me that people make these things solely one-sided when they reciprocate feelings, maybe they don't reciprocate.

[–]rosesonthefloor 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely. Like if you’re not reciprocating feelings with the person you’re in a relationship with, what are you doing?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

And that makes you a catch.

You are not going to find that kind of women being single in 30's... some lucky guy snatched of the market looong time ago.

[–]Lysa_Bell 17 points18 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm 34 this year and together with my bf for 4 years. I was single for years before he came around.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So you weren't single in your 30's? :)

[–]Lysa_Bell 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh you are right. Wow. I was single the majority of my life. The longest relationship before my bf was 6 month.

Although I know quite a few women like me in their 30s that are similar to me. The issue is... We don't go outside and we aren't on OLD. So I guess that makes the situation more complicated.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Those remaining good ones tend to be introverted and it's very hard to find them.

I mean I could stalk them but that's a baaaaad way to start a relationship.

[–]biggestuzifaneaDEEZ Pilled 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Love language is such bs. It's amazing how all women's love language is receiving gifts

[–]Lysa_Bell 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mine isn't. I don't like receiving gifts. I always feel awkward and like I have to make a big scene and everything. I like giving gifts but i really hate receiving them. I hate being the center of attention. I hate my birthday.

[–]king-bi-angel 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a woman, I’m not that great at being romantic. I have noticed that I lean towards acts of service and gift giving, but even that can be a hassle because I’m tempted to spoil my partner beyond my budget 🫣

[–]vuvvuvvu💋 9 points10 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Aww this is actually very sad. Gonna go smother my BF in kisses and buy him some forum gold for Diablo rn.

OP what are some “romantic gestures” men like? In my experience, I never ask or demand romantic gestures from men because I want them to genuinely want to do it. It feels fake if I have to tell them. Likewise, my BF never demands any romantic gestures as I just do them on my own for him.

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thirding "the little things." Literally if a girl just reminds me that she wants me, that she respects me, and that she cares about me, I am putty in her hands. I have a married coworker who treats me like this (but in an entirely platonic fashion), and I struggle to stay appropriate sometimes because I've literally never received that kind of treatment from a woman I've dated, so it's very moving.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I really can't speak for everyone.

For me, I really don't care about gifts, specific dates...

Random honest shows of affection can knock me off the feet.

[–]badgersonice 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

For me, I really don't care about gifts, specific dates...

Your OP is about claiming men are more romantic because they do these things more, but you don’t actually care about receiving those things. You are calling women unromantic because they don’t do things that you don’t appreciate.

Random honest shows of affection can knock me off the feet.

But you don’t call those shows of affection “romance”, otherwise you wouldn’t dismiss women as less romantic unless you really thin women never show affection. I don’t see how you could possibly consider women romantic when you systematically choose to dismiss the things women do that you like as unromantic.

Your OP is about glorifying the kinds of romance that women like receiving and downplaying the kinds of romance men like receiving in order to claim some kind of moral superiority of men.

[–]wrathofkalima 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bingo

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Similar to OP:

The little things. Random hugs and kisses throughout the day, cuddling, playing with my hair, generally things like that that make me feel wanted.

Buying me my entire Steam wishlist wont mean as much to me as a tight hug and and a few loving words.

[–]TodTheRod01 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cooking my favourite meal, surprising me with a coffee randomly.

Look at valentines day...men are expected to do all kinds of shit...women just expected to give a guy some sexual attention.

Hell compare march 14th expectation vs feb 14th

March 14th = steak n bj Feb 14th = gifts, chocolates, flowers, jewelry, fancy dates/dinner, etc

[–]toasterchild 8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Do women really expect more? Is this common? Maybe it's just the women I surround myself with but I can't think of any who expect romantic gestures or demand it.

I'd advise against googling romantic gestures unless you want a list of things to not do.

[–]anonymousUser1SHIFT 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Oh 100% tons of women require it.

Every woman who requires you to take them out on a date is this.

My gf for example rejects coffee dates on the grounds of "I need the romantic feel, which I can get from a dinner date, to be able to feel attracted to someone".

Be advised no one is saying men have to do grand romantic gestures, just being romantic.

[–]toasterchild 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never would have thought dating the person you're dating would be considered a grand romantic gesture.

[–]parahacker 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh it very much is.

To the extent that I refuse to 'date' any woman I'm not already in a relationship with. Putting in the kind of effort expected by women from a date with a stranger, or even a casual acquaintance, is absurd.

[–]TodTheRod01 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats a red flag

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do women really expect more? Is this common? Maybe it's just the women I surround myself with but I can't think of any who expect romantic gestures or demand it.

Yes, yes, maybe.

I'd advise against googling romantic gestures unless you want a list of things to not do.

It's just a simple way to feel how the society "breaths".

If I was googling "romantic gestures", and most articles were about women gesture to make him feel special.

That would imply that women care about making their dates/bf/husbands feel special.

But it's the other way around.

[–]toasterchild 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you sure its not just mostly outdates sexist bullshit that still exists somewhere?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should read more carefully.

I said it implies, which means I'm not taking it as hard evidence.

[–]Jambi1913 15 points16 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Men need to prove to a woman that they see her as “special” because male sexual attention in and of itself does not. Women are accepting all the risks and potential burdens of sex when they are intimate with a man, which is enough to make him feel “special” - no extra romantic gestures are required to make him feel romantically fulfilled and prioritised above other men. The same cannot be said from a woman’s pov - a man needs to make other gestures to show she is special, because he risks nothing by being with her and is probably open to having sex with almost any woman who accepts him. All girls grow up seeing how indiscriminate male sexuality can be - we don’t feel special to a man simply because he is trying to get in our pants. He has to make more effort than that to show we mean more to him than the next girl over. It simply isn’t the case that it’s like for like (or sex for sex) - men and women are not symmetrical in this way.

Also: I personally side eye any woman who has this “strategy” of regularly hooking up with guys she barely knows and then having a guy she strings along for months because he’s “relationship material” and has to prove to her that he’s in it with her for more than sex. I think it’s unfair on him and also poor character on her part to be so risk-taking by having sex with strangers anyway. I don’t blame men for not wanting any part of that. But I do question how common those types of women really are?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

For younger people, sex might be enough to make them feel special.

In 30's it's not anymore.

[–]Jambi1913 7 points8 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

What romantic gestures do you believe women should be providing to men? Because, in my experience, plenty of women prioritise their man’s happiness and want to please him and not just receive his positive attentions without giving anything back. They will organise activities they believe he’ll enjoy, cook his favourite food, buy him little gifts, go with him to the things he wants to share, etc. I think those are all behaviours and acts that are romantic (and not about sex) and hopefully make a man feel special?

Or is this more about comparing how she treats you to her previous romantic partners? Because that is more complex and can be virtually impossible for a woman to “prove” unless you had intimate knowledge of her previous relationships - or she has no history at all with other men.

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't speak for other men, but my (27M) experience is that a lot of ladies, even exceptionally kind ones, tend to be very passive in the dating phase. They never message first, or if they do it's something really low-effort in an attempt to get me to start the real conversation. They expect me to entertain them on a date and take all initiative in the conversation. Somehow, they expect us to have "chemistry" when getting them to engage without explicit prompting is like drawing blood from a stone. There is also a tacit expectation that I pay, which I really don't mind, but I feel like if I have to pay, she can at least put a little bit of effort into the date too.

Idk. I'm not all that bitter, I just wish more people would match my energy. Instead it usually feels like it's an obligation for her to be there, and that I'm some court jester whose sole purpose is to put a smile on her face. Considering the amount of effort and rejection I go through in order to get any dates at all, it kinda feels like a slap in the face sometimes.

[–]Jambi1913 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That sucks. I think a lot of women are pretty passive - we’re often socialised that way tbh. To allow others to take the lead. I know I can be that way and it’s something I have to work on.

When dating, I can understand a woman being hesitant to take the lead in messaging and planning, etc - again, I think many women are socialised that way (especially when getting to know a guy). What I don’t understand is not being fully engaged and trying to connect with a guy on the date and moving forward. Once you’re actually there and getting to know each other, you should be getting involved and making an effort to be good company. I feel really bad when I hear about women basically looking at her phone the whole date and then expecting the guy to pay - not even offering to go halves. It’s so rude and trashy. I don’t blame you for finding that sort of behaviour feels like a slap in the face.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Those gestures are romantic, I think that most women in relationships do treat their partners. And I'd say this is a strong glue which keeps the relationship together.

However women tend to be passive during dating, or the whole "courtship" phase.

This does work in early 20's since you guys are hotter, we guys are hornier and we didn't get burned.

But 30's. You guys are not as hot, we guys are not as horny. And we probably got burned by somebody stringing us along. I don't feel like spending my time on somebody that doesnt make me feel special.

[–]Jambi1913 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

So you kind of feel like women should lower their standards for men’s romantic gestures and reassurances because they’re not as hot in their 30s? You’ve lost me there.

I don’t think this tit-for-tat is a good perspective to have - it’s petty and superficial. You think a woman in her 30s is no longer hot enough to warrant as much effort and attention from you - don’t you think a woman will pick up on that and feel you’ve settled for her and wish she was someone else? Would you be ok with a woman treating you that way? Is it understandable for a woman to put in less effort and be less affectionate and available to a man because he’s on the short side, or is balding or has a low-paying job? I don’t think it is - and I’d say it would be very petty and superficial for a woman to behave that way also.

If a woman or man is not good enough for you to warrant genuine feelings of romance and a desire to make them happy and feel special - then leave them alone.

[–]shonenhikada 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes they should. Men care about beauty, femininity and fertility a lot when considering a partner and a woman in her 30's tend to have a decrease amount in all 3 categories when compared to a woman in her 20's. She is not going to get the same type of guys that were chasing her when she was in her 20's or early 30's.

https://youtu.be/0YSQbItBjTw

The high quality guys are going to be chasing women in their 20's who appreciated romantic gestures with lower price tag. The men who are (not simps/manginas) in their 30's who can't do that will chase women in their 30's for relationship. However, male sex drive goes down with age (men lose 1% of their test levels each year post 30) and men start thinking more with their big brain and look more critically at what women are actually bringing to the relationship table and whether that women is worth putting so much effort into.

Many men from this review are either going to put about the same amount or less when it comes to romantic gestures. Let's face it, romantic relationships are a transaction between the sexes. If a woman has less of what u want in a partner, why should a man be putting in more time and resources into her?

[–]Jambi1913 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Here’s the problem: you list the main things men care about as “beauty, femininity and fertility”. Aside from femininity (whatever that really means) - both beauty and fertility in women will eventually fade out and cease to be. So women know what they are valued for is going to drop at some point - and the men that got with them at the height of their “powers” will inevitably feel she’s not as valuable as she once was. It’s a horrible, horrible thing from a woman’s perspective to frame it that way - that all her value will fade and fail and then a man might only stay out of obligation, rather than truly valuing her for who she is now. “At least I got you at your best” is not something any woman wants to hear from the man she loves when she’s 45.

Men, on the other hand, are largely valued by women on traits and attributes that will either increase or most likely stay static or slowly decline over decades. They don’t have to worry so much about being seen as less valuable after the age of 40.

It’s kind of an awful way to view relationships and other people. To weigh up how much you will put into making someone you supposedly care for happy and fulfilled against how much value they have compared to who you really want. It’s like my worst nightmare to be viewed that way - as a series of pros and cons - and then have my value calculated and a man decide just how much I’m worth to him. The idea of a man being like “oh, you’re older and softer than I ideally want, so I’ll put in 65% of the time and resources I’d put into my ideal tight-body 21 year old and you should be grateful for that” is kind of chilling.

[–]FireCaesar23 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice, now look at the guy's side. How they gotta work to make value to be seen, how they don't have a huge natural value in their 20s, how they have to take the initiative almost always.

[–]Jambi1913 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure - we always want what we haven’t got and think others have it better. Women want to be valued for their achievements, interests and personalities and not simply for their youth and beauty (because they are transitory - and many women never have much beauty to begin with in comparison to the women prized for their looks). Men want to be valued for their innate traits and sexual performance instead of for achievements and status (because they have to be worked on and honed - and many will not compare that favourably to the “top men” no matter what they do).

This also plays into each sex’s priorities - women tend to want to be in it for the long term, so we are averse to being valued by traits that cannot last (being hot and young and virginal). Whereas men tend to want quick attraction and easy sex, where short-term traits are more desirable (like the ones they value most in women) - so they don’t like to be seen as good long term prospects with potential, they want to be viscerally attractive in the moment. This is because men who can get sex without investing or committing anything are living on easy mode. Women are showing investment and a willingness to commit to a man’s legacy as soon as she has sex with him - being valued for the short term traits of hotness and youth are a juxtaposition to that. For many women it feels “unfair” that a man wants us in a way that jeopardises us and as “cheaply” as possible - and then would want to replace us with someone younger and prettier if he had the opportunity. If we accept that what men value most in women are looks and youth - then all women are going to be less valuable to a man eventually, even if she gives him her all and has his children, etc. He’s still going to see her as faded and less valuable. What women value is more long-lasting and broadly-defined - but it requires men to continue to hone and work on it and for many that means they can’t just relax and be themselves, they have to maintain their “frame” or improve it.

Both see what the other has as being better and their own lot as “unfair”. Truth is, there’s pros and cons to both and no one sex truly has it easier overall. All I know is that it’s abhorrent to like someone and engage with them romantically, but consciously treat them with less respect, kindness and generosity because they don’t score high enough to warrant it. That seems psychopathic frankly.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Would you be ok with a woman treating you that way?

Women are treating me that way. And yeah that's superficial but that's the world we live in and I can be OKay with that or I can feel bitter about it.

I chose to be OKay with that, and work out.

And I don't feel that women should lower their standards for men romantic gestures. I feel like they should increase their effort, their romantic gestures.

Because if a woman just has her looks. Once that looks fades she doesn't have anything else. She still wants people to find her special, but there is nothing special about her. That's the true WALL.

But woman which has character, which is fun, romantic. Losing her looks is not a wall but a speedbump. She will still find guys which will find her special.

[–]Jambi1913 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

First off - I’m sorry women are treating you that way. Personally, it’s not something I can accept or condone. I don’t think people who behave like that are worth my love and effort - I’d rather stay single.

Second - I agree that women should not rely on their looks - and they need to have personalities and attributes that make them special beyond sex and looks. What effort and gestures would you like the women you date to put forward?

I hope you find someone who is good to be around and who makes an effort to be a worthy romantic partner. You shouldn’t have to put in all the work.

[–]Coconut-Lemon_Pie 6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

When I was young I thought Valentine’s Day was cute and romantic and for couples. As I got older and while single, I thought celebrating it was kind of dumb because roses, flowers & chocolate increase in price and women constantly feel the need to brag about what they were gifted. Now that I’m married I regret not telling my husband that I want to celebrate v day. It’s not about bragging or how much you get, it’s just about feeling special. So as a kind of compromise I just buy myself flowers & chocolate, but I get them the day or 2 after when everything goes on sale. A bit depressing romantically, but better than nothing.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It really is about feeling special to someone.

Maybe take out your husband on V day and make him feel special, then see how he reciprocates?

[–]Coconut-Lemon_Pie 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I will do this :)

[–]Ok-Hair6051 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What grinds my gears is that if you need a specific day to tell you to treat someone special, one time a year, then you are a shitty partner and lack awareness.

Every day can be valentines day, every day you can decide to make someone feel special. We dont need a day to instruct us how to love someone. I hate v day with a passion.

[–]Coconut-Lemon_Pie 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why celebrate any holiday then? Why go on vacations? Why do married people plan date nights? I understand your point because I used to think that way too. I've gone through phases in my life about it and I think I'm allowed to change my mind on things. I don't need that day to make me feel special, I just think its would be a nice gesture for both men and women. I don't need to be instructed or told to treat my husband in a special way. Maybe we're just both shitty partners. I think putting 100% effort in to making everyday seem like valentines day is an unrealistic expectation of yourself and people get used to being treated with 100% all the time and take it for granted and your 100% becomes just the average daily thing.

[–]Ok-Hair6051 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I dont care if other people celebrate, but I do find it to be silly. Not to mention holidays are pushed upon society for the sake of profit, it has shifted its original meaning. Just my opinion though.

And of course you shouldnt expect that treatment 100 percent of the time. Even if its 3-4 times a year, which is very easy to do, that seems realistic.

[–]social_mulemgtow 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When I was young I thought Valentine's Day was a romantic holiday that couples celebrated together. After all, all the kids in school made cards for all the other kids...boys and girls alike. As I got older I realized how one sided the holiday actually is. It's like a second birthday for women in relationships where their boyfriends or husbands buy them gifts. You can imagine my surprise when I realized anniversaries were pretty much the same thing.

[–]Coconut-Lemon_Pie 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In tv and commercials, ya it's very one sided, but lots of women make and buy special things for their men on vday/bday/etc. If you're partner is expecting gifts on all of the holidays, that's on you. Find someone else that isn't constantly expecting gifts at every single holiday or major life event. Growing up my parents gave me something for every holiday. V day = chocolate, Easter = stuffed bunny/chocolate, bday = gifts/cake, Christmas = gifts/treats. Then you grow up and get wedding anniversaries and sometimes Mothers Day too. It's really too much and I don't even need gifts. I think it's just about spending extra time together and giving each other specialized attention. There are lots of love languages though, so you have to find someone that you can mesh with in that way too and both speak either the same language or learn how to speak each others. Sometimes it's not even about gifts.

[–]XVMECHA 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This sub is a male dating struggles circle-jerk

[–]a-glass-brightly 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

if you think there’s such a thing as “the romantic gender” you’re starting from a completely false premise and have thus poisoned your entire worldview at the root.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No I haven't.

[–]Salt_Mathematician24Purple Pill Woman 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women need romance for genuine sexual attraction way more so than men. I think that's the point.

[–]Mirchii 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's more so that women have a way with words and feelings, and men with action. The perception of the former often comes across as more romantic than the latter.

[–]buffsterfan 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Aww this is sad. I try to be romantic with my partners: cooking them meals, thinking up nice dates, lighting candles before they come over, lingerie etc… a lot of women do stuff like that. The problem here may just lie with the kind of women men are attracted to, or where they’re finding these women. Everyone has positive and negative qualities, but women who are generally more introspective and thoughtful are probably more likely to be romantic long-term… you’ve just got to look for those traits early on.

[–]TodTheRod01 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Personally i wouldnt call lingerie romantic. Its relating to sex... From a guy's pov. Sex and romance are not the same or interchangeable.

I can have sex with whoever. But as a man romance is something i want with ONLY someone im in a relationship with.

I would highly advise you to talk with your guy about what HE considers romantic TO HIM.

A woman cooking me my favourite meal and wearing my fav dress thats romantic and sweet to me...candles and a bubble bath not so much for example. But thats to me. Another guy might really dig candles and a bubble bath.

[–]buffsterfan 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I get that. Though I do think sex can be romantic… there’s different kinds of sex and different ways to be physically intimate. And I appreciate the advice but I didn’t list everything I do, like surprising him with thoughtful gifts or organizing a surprise party for him with his friends. I should ask him what he thinks his love language is tho (pretty sure it’s physical touch and acts of service but I think we’re both pretty good about using all the love languages).

[–]gofigure62No Pill 16 points17 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

According to the popular opinion in this sub. Men don't value romantic expressions from women.

If those dates were significant in the first place, men would care to remember. Aniversaries of this or that hold little significance to men, most of us barely care about our own birthdate. So, why would we care to celebrate something that we dont even bother to remember?https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ur37e7/why_are_single_women_more_likely_to_be_happy/

And

This is somwthing i think women overlook when they cpmplain about "emotional labor". They perform tasks like "remembering dates" despite no one asking them to do that because we dont care and then act put upon about said task

This sub often states that men "don't care" about celebrations, thoughtful gifts, or planning dates because they're "simple" and don't want anything from a woman other than her "not being fat and pretty"

Dude, men are simple.

They just want a girl who is not fat.

If there are two girls who are not fat that they can fuck, then they pick the one who makes 40,000, isn’t a total bitch and is not fat.

And as you just said, they ask for basic shit like 40,000.

Not six figures, giant ass titty super models (six foot tall equivalent) sex god virgins

A woman who is thin and the best they can get. https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/v5d7kx/any\_study\_that\_shows\_that\_money\_doesnt\_affect/

So even when women DO gift their male partners game consoles, video games, set up candles in the bedroom while wearing sexy lingerie, cook him a lovely dinner, or plan a special date, men via the narration of this sub wouldn't consider these gestures significant because men don't care about these kinds of actions or demonstrations. As per the collective belief of this sub, nothing women DO do would be considered romantic because men don't care whether or not someone remembers their birthday, plans a date with them, or otherwise puts in the effort to show significant gestures of appreciation.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 19 points20 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Science Says Women Are Actually Less Romantic Than Men

Who's Really More Romantic, Men or Women?

Who is more romantic: men or women?

Oh here's one interesting snipet

A separate study found no gender differences in romantic beliefs among Americans,3 but no study to date has shown women to be more romantic.

So most studies find men to be more romantic, some studies find both gender to be equally romantic and NO studies find that women are more romantic.

This sub does not represent men and women. Most women in this sub are married and in 30's, most men are single.

[–]gofigure62No Pill 8 points9 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

The studies you provided are nonsense IMO. The "romantic beliefs" scale solely seems to be words of affirmations and feelings alone. None of this data reflects demonstrated behaviors or actions within a relationship or within the early dating stages. All of the links that you supplied reference the same exact Romantic Belief scale hypothesis from 1989. Which are just THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS, not demonstrated or measured behaviors.

“love at first sight”4—one recent survey of 100,000 adults found that 48 percent of men claimed to have fallen in love at first sight, while only 28 percent of women made such a romantic claim.5 In addition, men, compared to women, tended to place a greater emphasis on the importance of feeling passion in their relationships.6

None of the data demonstrates follow through with tangible or actional behaviors exercised or actively practiced within a relationship. And frankly, I haven't been able to find any modern data on the subject since 1997.

Feeling ideation regarding a relationship or the prospect of a relationship isn't a display of romantic behavior enacted within an actual relationship. Frankly, it sounds as if men are naïve and ignorant regarding the reality of what romantic relationships actually are. However, I haven't been able to find ANY recent data on the subject.

All data that I have found is that men are less forgiving than women in relationships, especially regarding infidelity. Which proves their ideation of "working through anything" from the study that all of your articles reference aren't actually carried out through practice when men experience them in heterosexual relationships. The study that was referenced in your links said that men are more likely to believe the following:

If I love someone, I know I can make the relationship work, despite any obstacles,"

Despite the reality being that men are less likely to forgive women in relationships, especially regarding infidelity, even though men are more likely to have outside relationships than women.

https://1stnews.com/men-or-women-who-is-less-likely-to-forgive-a-cheating-partner/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303145228.htm

And I actually found a study from the 1960's that actually supports my hypothesis.

A study undertaken in the mid-1960s found that men are more "romantically" oriented (and less romantically compromising), and that women are more "realistic" and willing to compromise—64 percent of the men, but only 24 percent of the women, said that they would not marry a person who possesses all the qualities that they admired, but with whom they were not in love.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-the-name-love/201204/do-women-make-more-romantic-compromises-men-do#:~:text=A%20study%20undertaken%20in%20the%20mid-1960s%20found%20that,but%20with%20whom%20they%20were%20not%20in%20love.

Even in the link you provided the second paragraph literally says:

But research suggests that the male attitude toward love may actually be more romantic.

In other words, men on average are more delusional about relationships than women and women are more realistic and levelheaded about relationships than men.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 9 points10 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

100,000 adults found that 48 percent of men claimed to have fallen in love at first sight, while only 28 percent of women made such a romantic claim.5 In addition, men, compared to women, tended to place a greater emphasis on the importance of feeling passion in their relationships.

Holy shit we are almost twice as romantic

[–]gofigure62No Pill 10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You said:

Delivering romance makes one romantic.

Nothing you provided says that men deliver romance. Believing that love at first sight exists, isn't delivering a specialized behavior towards someone specific.

Your whole argument was about what men supposedly do, the sources that you provided were regarding what men think and feel.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Men believe more into romance and love, and more often fall in love at the first sight, before finding out her credit score.

Men also deliver more romance.

Women demand romance, but fail to deliver.

This is a CMV, so far you haven't delivered anything substantial to change my mind.

[–]gofigure62No Pill 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Your mind isn't going to be changed if you don't bother to read what I write. But it seems that you're just dicking around and don't actually want your mind changed. So I'll leave it alone.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh I had read everything you said and.

Modern women cheat as much as guys do.

Romantic person will leave partner after cheating because all romance is gone. Materialistic person wont. It get's more complicated once children are involved though.

In other words, men on average are more delusional about relationships than women and women are more realistic and levelheaded about relationships than men.

And this is where you are just proving my point.

Because love is not realistic and levelheaded. It's not a calculated decision.

Love is letting go and becoming dumb and naive and stupid, and men are better at it because we are more romantic.

[–]gofigure62No Pill 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your whole thread was about men ENGAGING in romantic gestures. The examples that you gave were of men buying gifts and physically doing something within a relationship.

NONE of the sources that you provided men ENGAGING in any action.

It doesn't seem as if you're following any of your own talking points.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your whole thread was about men ENGAGING in romantic gestures. The examples that you gave were of men buying gifts and physically doing something within a relationship.

No it wasn't.

NONE of the sources that you provided men ENGAGING in any action.It doesn't seem as if you're following any of your own talking points.

It's a CMV, I don't have to provide sources.

[–]miss_henny 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think falling in love at first sight is romantic? It pretty much means you fell in love in nothing else than looks and first impression.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yup, you should find out persons credit score before falling in love.

That's romance 101

[–]miss_henny 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And how did you reach the conclusion that taking more time to fall in love means you fall in love with the credit score? Personality, sense of humor, morals and beliefs are things that take more time to learn about.

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't speak for other men of this sub, but the only thing that matches me here is that I do prefer for my partner to be fit and pretty, and I really don't give a shit about calendar dates.

Why? Because they're arbitrary. I barely find it in me to care about Christmas, and the only reason I do is because it's a cultural thing and one of the few times my family has ever been able to get along.

To me, romance is love shown intentionally, all the time, not once a year. I cannot tell you how much it would mean to me if any of my past partners were to give me a videogame I wanted, cook me a lovely dinner, or plan a special date/vacation. I would be very moved, and honestly I'd probably be crazy about that person if she did stuff like that regularly. Sex too, obviously; my blood is red.

My point is, there are plenty of us men out here that like being treated too–we just know better than to expect it because we regularly receive the message that we should be grateful we have anyone at all. I tried telling an ex of mine that I like compliments too, and rather than just give me that much, she called me insecure and held it against me any time we argued after that.

My experience is not uncommon.

[–]HTML_Novice 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’d go with whoever gave better head and more often

[–]buffsterfan 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tbh, fair enough, I feel like being generous in the bedroom is kind of indicative of other things. Skill comes down to experience though, so I’d say a more important quality is a willingness to learn/desire to treat the other partner well (in the bedroom and out).

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

According to the popular opinion in this sub. Men don't value romantic expressions from women.

I don't value the kind of romantic expressions that usually come to mind.

Aniversaries and similar dates mean nothing to me. I don't value special days. I want routines. I value romance. Day to day. A "Have a nice day honey" once a day is more important than an anniversary fully planned. The second one has no value at all.

This sub often states that men "don't care" about celebrations, thoughtful gifts, or planning dates because they're "simple" and don't want anything from a woman other than her "not being fat and pretty"

It is too much to ask for more than that. "Not a bitch" usually includes the kind of romance I value.

If there are two girls who are not fat that they can fuck, then they pick the one who makes 40,000, isn’t a total bitch and is not fat.

All other things being equal then you are correct.

So even when women DO gift their male partners game consoles, video games, set up candles in the bedroom while wearing sexy lingerie, cook him a lovely dinner, or plan a special date, men via the narration of this sub wouldn't consider these gestures significant because men don't care about these kinds of actions or demonstrations.

That doesn't mean men don't value romance. That means those specific demonstrations are not effective.

If I want something that can be bought I already have it. I don't want someone that buys me shit unless they want me to stop working/providing forever.

Candles and lingerie? Why? I can see the effort spent and that puts pressure on me. Words are more than enough.

Cook dinner? I value routine, not special occasions. Want a useful romantic gesture related to food? Jam on toast, shape of a heart. Low effort. Easy to incorporate in a routine.

Special dates? Same thing. I value routine. The more effort she has to go through to plan it the more pressure there is on me. See the "Have a nice day honey" example. Low effort, easy to incorporate in a routine.

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here I thought I was going crazy for thinking this way.

[–]gofigure62No Pill 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for reaffirming everything that I said.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Read again. It's not that men don't value romantic expressions from women. Men don't value those specific romantic expressions. Men value other displays of romantic affection.

[–]gofigure62No Pill -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Words of affirmation are ONE type of love language.

Someone failing to see or value expressed effort that someone engages in tailored to specific details about their partner doesn't mean that the unvalued expressions aren't romantic.

For example, if you love starwars and your significant other surprised you with an in person autograph from your favorite actor in the film, that would be considered a romantic gesture, whether or not you consider it trash upon receiving the gift.

Not believing that it's significant that your partner takes the time and energy to learn who you are and try to make life enjoyable to your specific interests, doesn't mean that partner expending the effort isn't being romantic.

Men in this sub CONSTANTLY complain about not being valued beyond what they can provide, while simultaneously pretending they'll be absolutely fine with someone only wishing them a good morning, and NEVER doing anything else considerate for them besides giving surface level pleasantries.

Data literally shows that men's main excuse for cheating in relationships is due to feeling emotionally dissatisfied and feeling unappreciated.

M.Gary Neuman found that 48% of the men he interviewed reported emotional dissatisfaction as the primary reason for cheating. The men reported feeling unappreciated and wished that their partners could recognize when they were trying.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/healing-together/2013/09/an-unrecognized-reason-that-married-men-have-affairs#2

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Men want to feel wanted.

Let me make a real life example:

The little things my ex did, such as random hugs and kisses throughout the day, rolling over half asleep and hugging me tightly, etc. meant much more to me than the gifts she gave me.

Now don't get me wrong, the gifts were cool and I did like them, but it's the little things that made me feel the most appreciated.

[–]badgersonice 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

And those little affectionate gestures are not what people are talking about when they say women are not romantic.

OP will dismiss those as not being romantic because it doesn’t suit his narrative.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh no those are romantic, but women do not tend to do any of those until the relationship had already started.

So during the dating phase I'm supposed to romance her, and court her and only after she had accepted my miserable ass as being worthy do I get to find out if she is romantic or some cold basic bitch. Fuck that.

[–]badgersonice 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women do not generally hug and kiss total strangers, no. Men call women who do that a slut or a tease if she does that to random men in the hopes of getting a date.

So during the dating phase I'm supposed to romance her, and court her and only after she had accepted my miserable ass as being worthy do I get to find out if she is romantic or some cold basic bitch

If she’s not showing any signs of affection whatsoever at all on the first date, then she is already being cold toward yoy, so why are you chasing after her so hard? You’re not dating a woman who is into you, so cut your losses early and save your effort for someone who shows signs that she likes you. It doesn’t have to be sex, but if she’s cold and frigid and expects you to shovel money at her before she even flirts back, then she is cold to you, and you should not pursue her. You are not “supposed” to pursue women who are completely uninterested in you: that is your own choice to shower women with affection when you get nothing back at all.

Fuck that.

You could have avoided all your bitterness if you actually reject this one-sided-romance you’re obsessed with martyring yourself for. But instead, you deliberately chose to spend lots of effort on women who showed no interest in you in return. It’s not all women’s fault collectively that you choose to pursue women who show all signs of being cold and that you don’t reject the women who show no signs of affection or liking you. A woman who doesn’t flirt back or show any affection for you whatsoever isn’t going to transform into your manic pixie dream girl if you just buy her enough fancy meals.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow you made up a whole story about me simping and feeling bitter :D

The thing is, that's exactly what I had been doing. 1-3 dates and if I don't see any romance coming in my direction I'm bailing out. Heck sometimes I see them behaving all entitled and I just leave mid date. Since I don't end up investing too much time and energy into wrong women I don't feel bitter.

What I do say is that those women which feel entitled to men romancing them and simping for them while they sit on their royal asses are not the romantic ones.

[–]Barely-moralRed leaning purple-seal. Diagnosed ASPD 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Words of affirmation are ONE type of love language.

I agree...

Someone failing to see or value expressed effort that someone engages in tailored to specific details about their partner doesn't mean that the unvalued expressions aren't romantic.

I agree... My argument is not that those gestures are not romantic. My argument is that the fact that those gestures are not valued does not mean that men don't value all romantic expressions.

Not believing that it's significant that your partner takes the time and energy to learn who you are and try to make life enjoyable to your specific interests, doesn't mean that partner expending the effort isn't being romantic.

I agree... My argument is not that those gestures are not romantic. My argument is that the fact that those gestures are not valued does not mean that men don't value all romantic expressions.

Men in this sub CONSTANTLY complain about not being valued beyond what they can provide

I already accepted it. I am valued for what I provide. I am just trying to get enough in exchange.

while simultaneously pretending they'll be absolutely fine with someone only wishing them a good morning, and NEVER doing anything else considerate for them besides giving surface level pleasantries.

No contradiction there. Life is made of routines and little moments. Making little things and inserting the into the routine is a romantic display of affection that actually improves my day to day life. I can value that.

Is not that men don't value romantic displays of affection. It's that they don't value the same romantic displays of affection women value.

Data literally shows that men's main excuse for cheating in relationships is due to feeling emotionally dissatisfied and feeling unappreciated.

Too vague. You might as well be saying that the data says men don't like bad things.

The men reported feeling unappreciated and wished that their partners could recognize when they were trying.

How is this related to our discussion? Wanting your efforts to be recognized is one thing. Valuing some specific display of affection over other specific display of affection is something else.

[–]TodTheRod01 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats not at all what you said though...

[–]TodTheRod01 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats not at all what you said though...

Im extremely curious how you equate what he said meaning what you said....they are MILES apart

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

All men care about their girl in sexy lingerie.

The other stuff is on a need basis. I can buy myself games/game consoles, I can cook myself dinner, etc., so I don't need a girl to do it. It's nice when she does, and the effort is appreciated, but because I don't need it I don't put as much weight on it.

On the other hand girls need a constant stream of all that. That's why men are more romantic, because we have to be.

[–]randomaviary 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men love ideally, women love opportunistically. Which one sounds more romantic?

[–]IcarusKiki22F 10 points11 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Really? Because I never hear about women forgetting their mans' birthdays or christmas or their anniversary but I constantly hear about the opposite. That must mean that women care about romance more than men.

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we have different ideas of what romance is. I couldn't give less of a shit about an arbitrary date on the calendar–I want daily romance. The little things. Reassuring squeezes, my favorite cheeseburger from my favorite spot, compliments, time spent together, passionate sex, fun days out.

Who needs a frickin' anniversary when you treat each other in a nauseatingly romantic fashion every day?

[–]vuvvuvvu💋 13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I also notice women’s gifts to their male partners are more personalized and specific. For example, my friend’s BF is a huge Stars Wars fan & Lego fanatic so she bought him a millennium falcon set ($800)

Whereas men tend to give basic unpersonalized things, highlighting that they don’t know or don’t care about their partner’s interest. My friend’s bf only gives her flowers and chocolates, never anything relating to her interests or hobbies and this seems to be common amongst men.

So men might give gifts more “frequently” but way way way less meaningful

[–]IcarusKiki22F 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

thats what im saying

[–]timina 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I feel that in general women are rarely passionate about hobbies (if they have any). Traveling, having a good time, partying, meeting friends, shopping etc are not hobbies, or at least they aren't activities that you can base gifts on.

It usually comes back to fragrance, flowers, jewelry, etc

[–]Short-FingersPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes lol this all the way

[–]vuvvuvvu💋 -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is absolutely hilarious and totally false AND sexist so irrelevant

[–]timina 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have no resentment in this opinion. It's just my observation and I might be wrong. Again, I'm waiting to be proven wrong and I'm open to discussion.

I could say something similar about men (in general) not caring about feelings of their SO for example. I can be a man and observe/comment men's behaviour.

[–]TodTheRod01 -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My personal experience is the OPPOSITE.

[–]tshifter 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Really? Because I never hear about women forgetting their mans' birthdays or christmas or their anniversary but I constantly hear about the opposite.

I don't think most men would complain if their girlfriend forgot to buy them a gift.

With birthdays in particular, I notice a lot of men just don't show a lot of enthusiasm for their birthdays. It's not universal I'm sure, but I don't believe most men would even say anything.

[–]IcarusKiki22F 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If they don't care either way they aren't romantic. That's what I'm saying. Romantic means you like to give and receive

[–]tshifter 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't know if I'd say they don't care. They're just not going to complain. You know how it is, nobody likes a man that complains.

[–]IcarusKiki22F 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If they are forgetting their anniversary I'd say that shows the don't care about it personally

[–]tshifter 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe. But, I'm suggesting you hear more complaints from women about men forgetting because if the women forget, the men are less likely to say anything.

"I can't believe my wife forgot our anniversary" really isn't going to play as well to an audience as the inverse.

[–]IcarusKiki22F 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

sure guys appreciate it and would feel bad if their wife was that callous but not as much as women typically

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That must mean that women are way more loud and outspoken about receiving romance.

We guys do have to appear masculine. Also if I have to demand romance...

I DEMAND that you hug me and tell me you love me!

She hugs me and tells me she loves me.

Not really a romance novel material, is it?

[–]IcarusKiki22F 8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, romantic is about wanting to give and receive affection. That's what "hopeless romantic" means. If a guy has to be reminded of his anniversary but the woman remembers, then the woman is more romantic. Typically the woman also gifts something to the man - I've never heard of a relationship where the man is just showering her in gifts while she gives nothing except in stories about narcissistic women.

[–]River_Archer_32 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

its the norm

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's because women only percieve grand gestures on specific dates as romance.

[–]jackedsoonPurple Pill Man 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

well its not gonna suck itself

[–]SteveSan82 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

True. Unfortunately I found this out after dating alot. Women hate romance. They said it was "gay".

[–]OhmaygahhGeriatric GigaChad 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've been told this too. Eye opener.

[–]FusiontronNo Pill 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've experienced the same, albeit it was during high school times.

"I want to marry a woman, and be a great husband and father and make enough money to provide for four kids."

"Wow, that's really gay dude."

[–]ZealousidealAd7191 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah i disagree with the directionality of your proposition. Just because men are the ones DOING romantic things, i disagree that implies THEY are the romantics. Because if women didn’t like it and in many ways require it men wouldn’t do it.

I can perform a romantic action with absolutely so feeling behind it, but if I perform it properly and it stirs something in the woman I’m wooing am I really the romantic?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you like eating nice food.

That doesn't make you the cook.

[–]ZealousidealAd7191 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not the same at all. Better analogy would be: if when I’m by myself i eat cereal and a can of beans every night, but when I’m with my girl i cook her gourmet meals everyday because she loves it. Now who’s actually the foodie?

[–]Short-FingersPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The girl

[–]Scike_ 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Let’s replace ‘romantic’ with ‘foodie’ then

If you like eating lots of nice food, you would probably consider yourself a foodie The cook could be a foodie but they don’t have to be to prepare the food.

[–]ZealousidealAd7191 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a good analogy!

[–]SwimmingTheme3736 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love it when my husband being a a nice bunch of my favourite flowers, but I also know if I brought him flowers he would not really be that happy.

I love having flowers around the house, he isn’t so fussed so the gesture would not have the same effect.

In fact a lot of the traditional romantic gestures are not things he would appreciate very much. So I do different things that I know will make him feel special loved and appreciated.

[–]Key-Selection-522 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Neither are. At one time it was one side wanted romance so the other had to pony up. Now it's the one side doesn't care with certain people and wants it from others. Which causes the other side as a whole to think "why bother with it at all? She doesn't want it, and if she was okay with not getting it from him, I shouldn't have to do it either."

[–]peanutbutterjamsNo Pill 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahahah, fuck me. Great point. (The title, at least. I don't agree with most of the bottom bit of your comment.)

Hyper-agency and hypo-agency. It just keeps coming up.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Romance is all about making the loved one feel special.

What makes someone feel special about casual sex?

If casual sex is in higher demand by men (and it is) how can we be the more romantic ones?

Are you just excluding the fact that more of us are will to fuck randomly?

This is an incomplete picture of things

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

What makes someone feel special about casual sex?

Validation.

If casual sex is in higher demand by men (and it is) how can we be the more romantic ones?

If we only wanted sex, we would be so fucking superficial. But we don't.

Are you just excluding the fact that more of us are will to fuck randomly?

Are you implying that wanting to have sex somehow makes us less romantic?

This is an incomplete picture of things

Because you focused just on having sex.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your whole post and comments are roundabout way of saying “men are more romantic, when they want to be

And you are excluding the high demand for casual sex among men. Which is a large contributing factor.

How do you quantify that men are more romantic than women?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Dude if you do not consider yourself romantic and only care about sex that's OK.

You do not have to drag your whole gender down with you.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

You didn’t answer my question: “How do you quantify that men are more romantic than women?”

You do not have to drag your whole gender down with you.

Dafuq? Stfu you don’t what your talking about. How is this “dragging it down?”

Romantic isn’t a moral thing, it’s preference, nothing more.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's a CMV, I don't have to answer to you, you have to answer to me.

Why do you always try to white knight so hard, it's cringy as fuck.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Have you changed your view yet?

Call me white knight all you want. I prefer the truth over bullshit fantasies like “men are more romantic” lol foh.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nah.

I will keep calling you white knight if that is fine with you.

[–]decoy88Cuck’s worst nightmare 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another bad take on top of a pile of bad takes from you so at least your consistent.

[–]LillthOfBabylon 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women are not the romantic gender, men are.

Nope.

Let me start by defining romance in the simplest possible term.

So redefining words to prove your point?

Romance is all about making the loved one feel special.

Men typically only want that in sex.

For instance if I gift flowers to a woman that seems like a romantic gesture.

Because that's what women want.

Sure, women do demand/expect more romance, but that doesn't make one romantic.

It does.

Delivering romance makes one romantic.

Only because men can just be satisfied with pussy and that's it. That doesn't work on women.

I find that most of the women (certainly a large majority of single women) take a very "I'll just sit on my butt" approach.

Because most men would rather get their dick sucked and nothing.

It's not just sex,

It is. Othewrwise, you wouldn't give a shit. You'd enjoy her company. You can't enjoy her company because you only cared about pussy.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nope.

Yup.

Men typically only want that in sex.

I know a lot of women which would say otherwise. Maybe that's the only thing they want from you?

Sure, women do demand/expect more romance, but that doesn't make one romantic.

It does.

It doesn't.

Only because men can just be satisfied with pussy and that's it. That doesn't work on women.

So women can't deliver romance because they need more then sex to be satisfied?

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Because most men would rather get their dick sucked and nothing.

Again perhaps maybe that's the only thing that men want from you.

It is. Othewrwise, you wouldn't give a shit. You'd enjoy her company. You can't enjoy her company because you only cared about pussy.

If I can't enjoy her company that's due to her having a boring personality which makes sex the only worthy thing about her.

If she was fun and/or romantic I'd enjoy her company.

[–]LillthOfBabylon 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If I can't enjoy her company that's due to her having a boring personality

Then stop trying to date her. It's that simple.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I will, after I try fucking her.

By the way men are more romantic.

[–]LillthOfBabylon 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I will, after I try fucking her.

Thanks for proving my point about men being less romantic and more concerned about sex. Men only put in the effort into romance because women love romance and men know that's the best way to get pussy.

[–]HushPuppy1993 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Facts, especially since women only have to sit there and look pretty to get a guy interested….

[–]HighestTierMaslow 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Some MEN and some WOMEN are romantic.

You do know theres many women out there that can write this post about their ex boyfriends?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some MEN and some WOMEN are romantic.

I said that men are more romantic gender.

That doesn't mean that all men are romantic and all women are not romantic... it doesn't say that all men are more romantic then women.

Just as men are taller gender, yet you can find women taller then men. You can find women which are more romantic then men.

You do know theres many women out there that can write this post about their ex boyfriends?

Not this post, but... women could write posts about being more romantic then their exes.

[–]ConsciousGuidance5 6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

If they like the guy, women want to receive romance. If they like the girl, men like to perform the romance.

It's that easy.

[–]OldSimpsonsisbetterMessage me for a chat 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey, I'm a guy and I want to receive romance. But females don't romance.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If they like the guy, women want to receive romance.

And if they like the girl, men want to receive romance.

If they like the girl, men like to perform the romance.

And women don't like to perform the romance.

[–]hemaristhysbe 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What sort of romantic gestures do men want?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't speak for everybody.

For me it's surprise shows of affection.

A hug and a kiss into my neck followed by a couple of right words and I'm losing the ground under my feet.

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Same.

[–]No-Priority7869 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not like to perform the romance. It sets a precedent of monkey dancing and enduring the pussy whip.

[–]vuvvuvvu💋 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This has been my experience as a woman. Men who were genuinely very interested in me took initiatives to be romantic without me ever asking or hinting at anything.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 6 points7 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Being romantic in exchange for pussy isn't actually romantic.

[–]OldSimpsonsisbetterMessage me for a chat 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

But in the real world, no one does anything for free. They want something in exchange for their efforts.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Then the men who expect sex in exchange for romance need to choose women who equate sex with romance.

[–]OldSimpsonsisbetterMessage me for a chat 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Can't believe there are now women who expect romance and give nothing in return. "No one owes you sex" is what the women say here. No one owes you romance.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. But what I don't get is why you're confusing the two. If your priority is sex, you should be working on getting as slutty as possible. Casual sex is decidedly unromantic, so if that's what you idolize, it makes no sense to expect sex in exchange for romance.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the part which really get's me dumbstruck.

If you say that relationship is a two way street women start screaming ThAt'S a tRaNsAcTiOnAl ReLaTiOnShIp and fainting because that's so dirty and gross.

And men simping while they get to sit on their ass is romantic?

It's a bit of a princess syndrome.

[–]OldSimpsonsisbetterMessage me for a chat 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's very hypocritical. One rule for them, another for men.

But women here have already admitted that feminism is about fighting for women and if men want to fight for their own issues, they should create their own group. So women have made it very clear that they don't give a damn about any sort of fairness or equality, it's about maximum gain for themselves.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Are you suggesting that men only act romantic to get some pussy?

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be. If a guy defines feeling special as getting fucked, that is not a guy I want to be with.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Well I'm fully aware that some men lovebomb and act romantic just to get into panties.

And this is not changing my view, I still think that men are more romantic then women are.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Possibly, but according to your post, it's only so they can get laid. That's not romantic to me, because I don't equate sex with romance. I equate romance with love.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Possibly, but according to your post, it's only so they can get laid.

My post doesn't say that at all.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

And I think that this makes a lot of BB's feeling biter when they find out their GF/wife which made them wait had one night stands in the past.

Then you need to better explain this.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

When it's just about sex we tend to pump and dump.

Not start a relationship and get married.

If she was just sitting on her ass while he was courting her then getting sex doesn't mean anything if she was spreading her legs for other guys on the same night. Might as well dump the slut.

If she was also being romantic during the courting phase, that's another story.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My point is that getting sex doesn't mean anything either way. You perceive that it does, because you value sex. For women who engage in casual sex, that's not the case. I'm sure you would think a woman is an idiot if she believes that a guy loves her just because he fucks her.

But the other issue is that you hate the act while still perceiving it as better treatment, or treatment that makes you feel special. That's like someone saying "I hate serial killers. Why don't they ever try to kill me?!"

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can have a relationship revolve around romance. And I can have a relationship revolve around sex.

Woman which is not romantic and provides 2nd, 3rd rate sex is dumpster material.

[–]Im_The_Daiquiri_Man 10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes. As we all know a woman shows how special she thinks a man is by not fucking him.

Damn. Now it all makes sense. 🤣

Also, of course women are never, ever transactional with their “romantic” behavior towards men.

Nope, as ever on PPD, women are selfless angels whose only motivation is to “make the world a better place™”

It’s especially comedic hearing somebody hamster that when a man in a literal romantic relationship can’t even want sex in a romantic context as a component of such a scenario lmao

Welcome to Women: 2022 edition.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then you should pursue women who ALSO want sex in a romantic context. The mistake you're making is assuming we choose whether or not to have sex based on how the man will view the choice.

[–]Im_The_Daiquiri_Man 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

TF are you talking about? Lol. This is literally a discussion about men doing romantic things for people they are in a dating / in a relationship with.

[–]flapperfemmefataleew gender roles 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then bringing up the bit about men getting pissy because they're made to wait when other guys get sex sooner is irrelevant. There's nothing romantic about that sex.

[–]River_Archer_32 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not getting romantic gestures done for your and not getting fucked: every man's dream

[–]chalkandapples 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't exactly agree with your definition of romance. My definition of being a romantic person is someone that enjoys or holds in high esteem the acts of romance and courtship.

So this means you enjoy both giving and receiving romantic gestures. I think this is the common definition of what society means when they say someone is a romantic. For example, a girl can read a lot of romance books dreaming of a BF. This is often what we mean when we say women are more romantic.

That being said, I think men are still more romantic than women. They are more proactive in giving romantic gestures, and appreciates romantic gestures just as much as women. They like all this stuff when it happens to them, they just don't really vocalize it publicly as much.

They fall in love pretty fast, tend to ask you to be their GF first, and are the ones that asks you to marry them through a proposal.

[–]notviccyvictor 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I like your addition to OP’s definition, including not only humbly giving but also humbly receiving.

[–]Catherine772023 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Pumping at dumping and using women for sex is not romantic.

I think a guy should be ok with waiting if she makes him feel special but I understand if he’s not happy if she’s not making him feel special. She should contribute to dates or do nice things for him. If he’s willing to cook for her (not condoning sexist gender expectations) maybe she could cook for him. She can buy cards and gifts. 2 way street.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pumping at dumping and using women for sex is not romantic.

Offcourse it's not. Were you under the impression I said it's romantic?

I think a guy should be ok with waiting if she makes him feel special but I understand if he’s not happy if she’s not making him feel special. She should contribute to dates or do nice things for him. If he’s willing to cook for her (not condoning sexist gender expectations) maybe she could cook for him. She can buy cards and gifts. 2 way street.

I do agree.

[–]Yokowi 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah,part of the issue also is that lots men just don't like receiving anything that's even remotely perceived as romantic-at least in slavic countries. The whole gay stuff etc. Drives my friends nuts sometimes.

It's crazy to me to say "I lucked out because I got a guy who likes giving AND receiving romance." but its true. Then again,he is asian,so maybe different cultural standards? Not sure,but thank lord.

Eddit: Let me rephrase, me and my husband don't struggle with romance. (I just took him on a date Saturday and invited him again for next week. We talk openly about what each of us likes.) It is a cultural problem in my country. The men/women roles are very strong,as well as homophobia,so anything "emasculating" is bad -much more so than in the US where most of you seems to be from. :) (Yes,that includes manly gifts as "it implies I couldn't get it myself if i wanted it" kinda logic.)

[–]LouisdeRouvroy 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Part of the problem is that women think that what's romantic means what's romantic for them and thus assume that it's romantic for men too.

This actually shows that women are most of the time truly unable to think about what benefits men or what men really want. They think "I like a candlelit dinner so of course men should also".

All these gestures from women who just ape the gestures to women feel like a lecture for men, like "see how it is done, now your turn". So no wonder lots of men don't like it. They couldn't care less about candlelit dinners so why would women think that this is something for men while it's obviously not for them.

It's like gifting a vacuum cleaner to your wife for her birthday...

[–]Yokowi 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No,im talking about gifts in general. Beside bj/massage, It's realy hard to think of a gift/service for a slavic man. As I said,I don't have an issue with my husband,but lots of my female friends who stayed in my home country struggle. Me and husband,we had a conversation about what each of us likes/dislikes. Example,I dont bother with flowers because he said he isn't into it (except meat bouquet 😅) .But he likes being taken out to dinner. Small handmade gifts. Back massage.Going stargazing.Getting him quality work equipment. Nice clothes. Etc. But in my home country, culturally the "men provide,women care" is much more prevalent. Raging homophobia as well.

[–]TodTheRod01 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

THIS exactly!! What is appreciated by someone isnt the same thing that will be appreciated by someone else.

[–]The_Meep_Lord 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That makes me think you are not romantic.

The point of romance is to give something the other side wants in a sweet caring way. What you think is romantic is not what he thinks is romantic unless he also wants the same exact gestures as you do.

[–]Yokowi 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmmm, not sure where You got I struggle with it,but lemme explain some more. My and my husband,we have no issue with this. We had-and have-discussions about what we each like. (Ex,he doesn't care for flowers-but cares for being taken on a date.) We both give and receive. But in my home country,the whole "men provide,women care/look after" is much more prevalent in the culture,plus raging homophobia. So even if you do ask a man-or god bless,if you try giving without asking-youll most likely be met with disgruntlement,as it's "emasculating". If the men enjoy it,they don't let it be known, because...well,our culture is just not very welcoming to that. It's a self perpetual machine :/

[–]BlackPorcelainDoll🌹 ᴡᴀɴᴛᴇᴅ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴏᴜɢʜᴛ ᴄʀɪᴍᴇꜱ 🌹 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

His love language is me doing his meal prep: https://imgur.com/a/avucAEr and physical touch which is my experience with most men, their main love language tends to be physical touch - not just sexual, but touching and being touched in general and "closeness". Reaffirming his masculinity in organic ways, being right personality. Massaging his scalp, easing the aches, etc. Followed by words of affirmation, etc. I always greet him with "Hi handsome," and so forth - among other things, which IME is enough for most men. Severe neglect in touch, words of affirmation and quality time sends them off the deep end. Romancing a man like a woman doesn't appeal.

Women are romantic for high value men they are committed to and lazy with low quality others. I haven't a natural romantic bone in my body for unattached/uncommitted men in any way. I am not a natural romantic because men idealize and get rosy-glasses which triggers repellant for me.

In general, men need to stop 'romancing' random unattached/uncommitted women until at least the 3rd encounter. You can be smooth, romantic, sensual and convey interest without sacrificing your spine. How about being the 'different/novel' man instead of every other boring irrational Joe. It doesn't guarantee the 'girlfriend', it guarantee her attention/intrigue - base desire being "seen" by a woman.

[–]DeJuanBallard 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Romance pretty much just means buy her stuff and say nice words to her. Nothing is reciprocated to the man, the word itself might as well mean "stuff dudes do for women"

[–]LowerPatience207 8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

My gender of psychology class in college actually had two lectures dedicated to this concept. Historically, men could "afford " to be romantic - having a wife was more of an option than a necessity for men, since men weren't barred from the workforce and could easily provide for themselves. Men didn't have to worry about depending on someone else as adults to eat and keep a roof of their head.

For centuries, women had to marry men out of necessity, not romantic love. So women had to be more practical in their approach to relationships. Women weren't allowed to work - they were considered too dainty, not smart or strong enough to have careers, and were best suited stay at home. So what do you do when you're in a vulnerable position and don't have a lot of options to take care of yourself? You do your best to marry a man who's wealthy, strong and in good social standing. Because that's how you survived as a woman in this world. So you married men with resources, even if you found them utterly repulsive. In a sense, men collectively coerced women into marriages that many of them didn't want for centuries.

Dating is a mess in 2022 because we still have these romantic values from the old world in place, without the practical necessity of them. Men are currently facing the consequences of hundreds of years of gender inequality. Women in the developed world can choose to go to work, not have kids and choose not to associate with men if they don't want to. Women have always been choosy about men... but women just seem pickier now because they don't have to depend on being in a marriage for survival. In time, women might be able to fully step into the role of the wooer and be romantic in the way that men are, without being called "easy" or "clingy". Someday.

[–]LouisdeRouvroy 18 points19 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

For centuries, women had to marry men out of necessity, not romantic love. So women had to be more practical in their approach to relationships. Women weren't allowed to work - they were considered too dainty, not smart or strong enough to have careers, and were best suited stay at home.

That's some pro level of bad history. No wonder it was in a psychology class.

Do you think anyone had a "career" before the 19th century? A career in peasantry or in whatever trade your parents were in?

Whoever taught you this nonsense should be kicked out of teaching.

Women have always worked. Just like men. Neither sex had the choice of not working, nor the choice of what work to do. Not before the 19th century and the industrial revolution.

And neither sex could avoid marriage unless going into religion or stick to a very small group of bachelors/spinsters, but families didn't like that because it basically removed one person from helping forming alliances, which is necessary in societies where abundance isn't the norm.

The very idea of romance is something from the 19th century bourgeoisie repackaging medieval court love (which isn't romance either).

[–]ByzantineBoo_Nanochads, son! 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every woman here imagine her self being part of the rich bourgeois

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So men are more romantic.

And women are more materialistic.

[–]LowerPatience207 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's one way to put it haha. Nothing wrong with wanting to have nice things.

[–]None0fYour8usinessNo Pill, No Problem 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is when the love for materialistic trash trumps the love for the person that provides them.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well I'm not trying to shame women about it, so it's not necessary to excuse their behavior.

It's just that we deserve better then being described as a gender that cares just about sex.

I mean we do care about sex a lot, but we are more then that.

[–]mumblebumblegrumble 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women do more day to day loving actions in a relationship. Men use romantic gestures to court the woman and once they feel they have her locked down, they only do romantic stuff on special occasions if at all.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well if woman didn't do any romantic stuff during the courtship... it's not really a romantic relationship is it?

She is not with him because she loves him, but because he won her.

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[–]HTML_Novice 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think women demand men to be the romantic ones but men with men are hardly romantic

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is correct

[–]ConsultJimMoriartyGen X Gay 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Husband sent me a dozen red roses at work. That's romantic.

[–]hemaristhysbe 3 points4 points  (66 children) | Copy Link

What do men do that is romantic?

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 4 points5 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

Whatever movies tell them to do (make their female partners happy with gifts and gestures)

[–]hemaristhysbe 8 points9 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

If it isn’t specific gestures or favors that an individual woman desires, he isn’t doing it for her, he’s doing it for him.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 5 points6 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Yes. He’s trying to please his partner for himself because spending his time and money on someone else solely benefits him. Ughh...men

[–]hemaristhysbe 7 points8 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Stand by. I’m going to buy a bunch of things for my husband that I know he doesn’t particularly care about so I look like a good wife. “Hello, Amazon? Please send me a men’s manicure set, beard wax, a vegan wallet, and a chef’s knife. No, he chews his nails, doesn’t have a beard, prefers leather, and doesn’t cook, but I saw it on a movie.”

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

The 10k wedding ring and proposal on the top of a skyscraper - he wanted it. The stuffed toy you lost as a child that he buys you - he wanted it. The home cooked meal and the massage after you’ve had a shitty day - he wanted it. The couples spa day booked after getting a babysitter to give you a break - he wanted it. The times he came all the to your work with those quiches only you like - he wanted it. 🧢🧢🧢🧢

[–]hemaristhysbe 8 points9 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

The 10k wedding ring and proposal on the top of a skyscraper

Rare.

Babysitter for his own children? Why isn’t he helping care for them?

The home cooked meal

Awesome. I’ve made something like 2,000 romantic gestures for my husband.

he came all the to your work with those quiches only you like

The time I arranged for all the family birthday parties, cookouts, and holiday meals? I did all those things for my husband.

Seems like “romantic gestures” are the daily things women do for men and their families. Guess y’all were wrong when you claimed women aren’t romantic.

[–]houstongradengineer 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So true.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

“Babysitter for his own children? Why isn’t he helping care for them?” Umm date night ? Or isn’t that a thing anymore ? Serious question. “The time I arranged for all the family birthday parties, cookouts, and holiday meals? I did all those things for my husband.” arranged for the family - anything especially for him ? “The home cooked meal” - cooking Something special for a woman isn’t romantic, got it.

[–]hemaristhysbe 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

With the exception of the rare 10,000 ring and skyscraper proposal, you didn’t mention a damn thing female partners do almost every day without asking for extra credit.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We have a saying : it is easier to plant a seed in a raging river than it is to please a woman

[–]houstongradengineer 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My husband has done none of that. I cook for him, however. He doesn't even care what. As long as he doesn't have to do it. Just about labor. How romantic.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well that sucks.

[–]houstongradengineer -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, all of that isn't why I'm with him? We probably should work out something more equitable on kitchen duties though.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m so sorry dude...

[–]MelodiousTones 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever?

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Many a times. Had she ever ? Very rarely

[–]MelodiousTones 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Please provide examples.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Already did

[–]hemaristhysbe 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You provided examples of things women do every day, and acted like doing it once in a while was a “romantic gesture”. Got anything else?

No? I figured. Guess women really are the romantic partners after all.

[–]Stunning-Spirit5275 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Then what’s the point of a man even trying to be romantic?

[–]hemaristhysbe 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If a man is going to claim to be romantic, he sure as fuck better be doing more than basic home and family care and asking for extra credit, that’s for sure.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

We do stuff to make her feel special.

For instance saying "you are special to me" sometimes works.

[–]MelodiousTones 7 points8 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Do you really think wives and girlfriends don’t say nice stuff and do things for their partners?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 5 points6 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

I think that wives and girlfriends which do are not single because they do.

And women which are single, are quite possibly single because they don't.

I mean just look at the FDS, a bunch of single women, 100% pragmatism, 0% romance.

[–]MelodiousTones 3 points4 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Are you under the impression that FDS is or ever was popular?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

It does have 250 000 members.

But I'd rather use it as an example of women which can't land a relationship.

[–]MelodiousTones 4 points5 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Also a small percentage of women. As is the case with men.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

We are still a more romantic gender though.

[–]MelodiousTones 3 points4 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

That’s ridiculous. Who watches the Hallmark Channel? Who reads romance novels? Who watches romcoms?

[–]ex_red_black_piller 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are more "practical" about this stuff.

Just saw this today : https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/v7t9qu/ended_my_4year_old_relationship_tonight/

She gets a high paying job, and suddenly a 4 year relationship means nothing. Typical.

[–]OhmaygahhGeriatric GigaChad 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree. Look at all the poetry and art, and romance men throughout humanity has spoken about, longed for, and been excited about when they find their beloved. Or even talking about their infatuation.

Have women ever tried to talk so eloquently, so passionately about men that have caught their eye, to the fervor and intensity that man has?

I haven't seen it.

[–]kennyfern 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You say the majority of women but you don't have that level of experience to know what the majority of women are like or expect. You are just generalising. Buying flowers for someone isn't that special or romantic either.

This is just the same old complaint that women are not having sex with men on demand.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Buying flowers for someone isn't that special or romantic either.

I do agree.

You say the majority of women but you don't have that level of experience to know what the majority of women are like or expect.

Plenty of experience with women.

You are just generalising. Buying flowers for someone isn't that special or romantic either.

Nope, nope, nope.

This is just the same old complaint that women are not having sex with men on demand.

And this is the same old story MeN OnLy tHiNk aBoUt SeX.

Maybe men only wanted to have sex with you because you didn't had any other redeeming qualities... like being romantic? Just saying.

[–]kennyfern -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am a man and your response is incoherent.

[–]WYenginerdWY 1 point2 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Men created the red pill and have joined it by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. That's all the information I need to know that they are, indeed, NOT the more romantic gender.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]WYenginerdWY -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That whole post is a bunch of self serving drivel that doesn't approach romance with a ten foot pole. Besides, like I told the other guy - if your first relationship didn't go the way you wanted, joining an online ideology that validates your "I was wronged" bias by telling you women are hypergamous, slutty, perpetual teenagers who are incapable of love as a gender is going to pretty much guarantee all your relationships will be shit going forward.

[–]modidlee 2 points3 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

You do realize that the thing that pushes many men to redpill content is being broken up with by a woman, right?

[–]WYenginerdWY -1 points0 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Oh no's a woman broke up with me.... clearly the answer is to join an online ideology that systemically undervalues them and validates my emotional owie that women ain't shit so I should use them to my heart's content. That'll make my next relationship healthier, thanks red pill 👍

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow 3 points4 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Not a red-piller but you're kinda missing the point. It wouldn't wound them so if their heart wasn't in it.

[–]WYenginerdWY -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

It wouldn't make them turn to toxic dating ideologies that systematically dehumanize women if they didn't maybe think that way a little bit at first.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Abusers were typically a victim of abuse themselves.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

A woman broke up with me! That's abuse! I'm gonna emotionally abuse ALL women I get close to in revenge!!!1!1

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Wow, you have some issues.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I think the person who chooses to interpret being dumped as abuse is the one with issues

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

The only problem is I never said that being dumped is an abuse.

You just projected that onto me... because it fits your narrative.

[–]FrostieTheSnowmanPerplexed Fellow -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

See, people like to think they aren't capable of evil and toxic shit, but the truth is that we are self-interested creatures, and if circumstances lined up right, the vast majority of us are weak enough to succumb to it.

The Qultists, for example, have been primed by years and years and years of propoganda and crappy news to believe just about anything if it comes from the right people. Most of them aren't genuine idiots, they are astray

The same is true of misogynists. Sure, there are "true believers" in the bunch, but most just needed a group to follow/belong to because they felt lonely and rejected, and said group validated their worst inclinations and made them feel heard.

Unfortunately, the internet has created a whole slew of toxic echochambers for people to get lost in. None of us are immune to it. Not me, not you, nor anyone else on this subreddit. Our mere participation in this sub proves as much, though thankfully this sub has less echos and more genuine discussion than most.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's bullshit. I've had people do horrible things to me and I've somehow refrained from joining an online group with hundreds of thousands of other women that teaches me that men are perpetual children incapable of being rational adults that also oops maybe a little bit shouldn't have civil rights.

[–]modidlee 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Who said their objective is a "healthier relationship?" The pain and circumstances of the break-up(s) often leads to them thinking that isn't actually possible with modern women. So instead they focus on not getting hurt again while still fulfilling the desire for women.

[–]WYenginerdWY -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Who said their objective is a "healthier relationship?

Red pillers out here with the self own.

Hmmm. I could avoid pain by learning how to navigate relationships more deftly OR I could just pity party with my bros and learn to dehumanize women so I can just use them for my own purposes.

[–]modidlee 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

The "dehumanizing women" thing is separate. That's not a defining part of what redpill actually is. In it's simplest form I'd say redpill is about having a detached mindset towards relationships and women. Treat her well while she's with you, and enjoy the time you have with her. But know that at any moment she can and will leave you even if you don't do anything wrong. So you keep a detached, stoic frame of mind so you're not shook up or easily swayed by every little thing the woman you're with does.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

That's not a defining part of what redpill actually is.

Incorrect. It makes up a sizeable amount of the content on the sidebar.

[–]modidlee -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what the sidebar says. But I would say I was redpill before this subreddit was even created and I don't treat women poorly. I still have a good relationship with my ex wife, for example. But when it comes to relationships I don't argue with women when they feel a certain way. If she wants to leave I don't try to convince her to stay. I tell her she can go and there's no hard feelings. It's moreso about having a stoic mindset about women and life in general. That's what redpill is to me and the older redpill guys I follow. Just like every feminist woman has her own version of feminism, every redpill man has their own version of what redpill is.

[–]WYenginerdWY 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what the sidebar says.

This is the most important part of all that nonsense. You're defending a semi-cohesive ideology without even knowing it's grounding points.

[–]modidlee -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What I'm saying is the subreddit was created by who knows, with their own personal feelings about women. The redpill people who first coined the term didn't have the dehumanization of women as a defining principle. I'd say the original redpill philosophy was more influenced by the Greek stoic philosophers. New age redpill people I might say are more influenced by PUA (pick-up artistry). The original redpill was more of an overall philosophy about life. The redpill you see today focuses more on women than anything.

[–]plplokokplok 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You were driving a great point home until you brought up the girl paying you with sex. Sex is not an exchange of "I do a trick and you give me a treat". If that's all it is to you I'd other you to study all of sex and not just getting off.

I vibe with your original message though. I set firm boundaries with women in relationships now that if they don't pursue me like I do them, I'll just leave. I don't have the resources to blow all my money, energy, and time on someone who doesn't put forth effort.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh but I do agree with you.

I don't want to get paid with sex, I want the person to want to have sex with me.

And if I find out I am getting transactional 2nd rate sex... eeewwwwwww.

[–]MisterDudeBroGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Who ever said women are the romantic gender in the first place? Men provide romance to woo. Women are just fans of romance.

[–]mcove97No Pill -2 points-1 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I can just speak for myself but personally as a woman yeah I'm definitely not romantic. I find giving gifts quite the hassle really and just an annoyance more often than not. I also do not particularly care about being given gifts like flowers. I'm a florist. I'm around flowers all day at work I basically got flowers up my ass.. for me flowers are nothing special. I get to bring them home heavily discounted or for free if there's lots of leftover flowers in the store after work. Idk.. I do enjoy chocolates and candies, but like.. I already buy myself what I want cause I can afford it, so I don't really need a guy to buy me anything. If a guy wanna do something special for me.. he can give me a sex massage to loosen up my muscles after work.. or he can make me some food if hes really good at cooking. I'm already really good at cooking and I'm a huge food critic and food perfectionist, so he'd have to be chef level good at cooking for it to be special though. In return I'd probably offer to do something he would like. Not BJs though. Hate BJS.

[–]Graaarg999 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Big ooof

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If you were my GF I would gift you flowers several times per day :D

[–]Reddit_User_543mil 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why? Why would you give flowers as a romantic gesture to a woman that just said that she doesn’t consider flower a romantic gift?

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It was a joke...

[–]Reddit_User_543mil 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oof. My bad. I struggle with reading the intended tone on forums like Reddit, so I’m sorry I misunderstood.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

LOL it's OK :D

[–]letheix 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's sort of a self-perpetuating cycle. All the stories and advice are geared towards men. Then it's hard for women to figure out how to be romantic in a way that doesn't look too clingy or that the guy won't take as emasculating. Not that women shouldn't try—everyone should try to make their partner feel good—but there isn't a template to follow, which leads to a lack of confidence

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes. I can see that to a lot of women it doesn't even concur that men want romance.

I had dumped multiple dates because I made them feel special and they made me feel... nothing. And after dumping them some of them asked why am I ending it when things are going so well.

[–]letheix 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sincerely, good on you for having standards

[–]ThrowawayYAYAY2002 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed OP.

I've never seen a woman be anywhere as close to romantic as men. Never.

Like the saying goes: Men pretend to be realists but are romantic, women pretend to be romantic but are realists.

[–]JMoon331 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Women are definitely more romantic than men.

Men don't do more romantic gestures because they're more romantic, they do them because that's what makes their female partners happy.

Men do romantic acts because the women are more romantic and enjoy these acts. Women do less romantic acts because men care less about them in general.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Women are definitely more romantic than men.

Science Says Women Are Actually Less Romantic Than Men
Who's Really More Romantic, Men or Women?
Men were generally more romantic than women

Thy to find just one study which says that women are more romantic?

Men don't do more romantic gestures because they're more romantic, they do them because that's what makes their female partners happy.

Men do romantic acts because the women are more romantic and enjoy these acts. Women do less romantic acts because men care less about them in general.

Actually these studies say that men are even more influenced by romantic gestures then women are.

So women do less romantic acts because...?

They are less romantic.

[–]JMoon331 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Then I guess men are awful at communicating what they want. I'm bisexual and men almost never ask for romantic gestures and women show more gratitude for romantic gestures.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then I guess men are awful at communicating what they want.

Well if I ask a girl to buy me flowers, and she buys me flowers, that's hardly a romance novel material.

And when I say that I am a romantic guy, most women simply assume that I'm going to treat them with romantic gestures, and fuck me...

I'm bisexual and men almost never ask for romantic gestures and women show more gratitude for romantic gestures.

It's not about feeling gratitude, it's about making a person feel special.

EDIT: There is really no need to delete comments. This is not about winning or losing, just a debate in good faith.

[–]meteorness123 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The idea of women being romantic stems from the desire to be swept off their feet by a man who is more desirable than her.

Men are romantic about women who are more desirable than themselves.

So goes the dance.

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men are romantic about women who are more desirable than themselves.

I'd disagree.

Men don't care about preselection as women do.

Only exception are trophy wives.

[–]meteorness123 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't, I agree with that. But romanticism arises from the desire to win someone over, I'd argue. (partially, not only). If the man is more desirable than the woman, there is no need to revel in thoughts and romanticism.

[–]Urbanwitch666 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why does there have to be a romantic gender??

I've never personally experienced it being about gender tbh. Some guys are romantic, some aren't, same with women.

I'm always the more romantic one. I write love letters, poems, buy gifts, make cards, make breakfast in bed... My partner of seven years just about remembers my birthday 😂

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why does there have to be a romantic gender??

Because the book of truth says so.

I've never personally experienced it being about gender tbh. Some guys are romantic, some aren't, same with women.

I'm always the more romantic one. I write love letters, poems, buy gifts, make cards, make breakfast in bed...

That's cute.

My partner of seven years just about remembers my birthday 😂

I guess that's what happens when you share your man.

[–]Urbanwitch666 -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

We've been together for seven years and live together, it's not because we are poly. Neither of us slept with anyone else for the first two years and he wasn't more romantic then - he just isn't like that. He did give me a necklace when we first met but never took me on dates or did romantic gestures after that . If anything, his relationship with me and others has meant he has actually grown in that respect and puts more effort in. I felt a lot of pride when he got his girlfriend a really thoughtful birthday present last year. I take responsibility for that 😂

My girlfriend isn't super romantic either, but she does try to do the thoughtful gift thing. She did write me a love letter for my birthday which I thought was cute.

I would love a romantic partner but alas I am cursed to be the hopeless romantic.

[–]Worldly_Ad5936 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What the fuck

[–]Academic_Snow_7680 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you even met men? Most guys don't have a romantic bone in their body unless they want to bone and then it's about as low effort as they can muster.

I have gone on dates with probably hundreds of men in my fairly long lifetime and probably 20% were truly romantic with the man having a good sense of romance and wooing. I was/am also a woman that men will usually put effort into dating so I don't believe it was anything personal when men didn't romance. I was raised by an autistic man and have watched the oblivion first hand.

[–]Wolfwoman333 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love being romantic and surprising the guy I’m with with gifts and flowers and dates. I buy my man flowers more than he does for me and it’s what works for us. I surprise him in lingerie and with sex whenever he wants. We cook for each other and do things for each other. I’m a woman and am indeed very very romantic. More romantic than any man I’ve ever met. So? Maybe the majority of woman aren’t? I’m not sure bc I’ve only ever dated men. I’m speaking for myself.

[–]blue_eyes18 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I want something, i.e. romance, and that’s the only way to really get my attention, does that not force stereotypically “unromantic” potential partners to decide to either attempt something that isn’t natural to them or else decide it isn’t worth the effort and they should continue looking for a partner who’s a better match?

Hence, some people—typically assumed to be women as a whole—want the romance, and it’s on the parter to either pony up and deliver or save their time and look for someone with different expectations.

I’ve gone to music shows/events where whatever it was wasn’t really my thing, but I put in the effort because it’s something my partner wanted.

Does the act of watching hockey with my ex make me a hockey fan, if it’s something he liked and I just did it to make him happy? I understand that isn’t as much of a societal expectation as much as “being romantic” as a man, but I think it depends on the underlying intentions. You can do romantic things without necessarily being romantic. It also depends on what your partner wants in terms of romance and what actions of yours they even deem as “romantic”.

[–]Magnito-was-right 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s the person with less power in the relationship that is romantic, to try to win or keep the affection of the one who cares less. I’ve seen this go both ways, like the girlfriend who buys their boyfriend a new gaming system or some other expensive gift that he wants.

[–]magiksissclit 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Girls and men are romantic

Boys and women struggle with it

The ONLY solution is to find a woman who still believes enough and a man mature, wise & patient enough to jump through all her fair & well-earned hoops and booby traps

[–]veloron2008 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's been a painful realization for me that it's actually us men who are the hopeless romantics, and women are the sex-obsessed deviants of the genders. I mean I always knew there were gigolos and players out there, but they are a very small percentage of men. It's a startlingly high percentage of women engaging in similar behavior.

I only recently realized the effects of online dating, and Tinder in particular, on the sex and relationship habits of the younger generations. This was due to a very young, naive girl in my extended family who got sucked in to OLD and hooking up. It's been addicting for her and she's given up other hobbies and is now depressed a lot. We are worried about her.

Reading threads on Reddit has been sort of mind blowing. Many if not most older folks are completely unaware of the situation. It seems that morals have gone completely out the window.

Given the near complete anonymity of OLD, not to mention inundation of 'matches' for the average woman, getting sex is basically like ordering food online and having it delivered to your door. Not the best quality, but that doesn't matter when it is just recreation now.

Back in the swinging 60s, you had to know some people and have a bare minimum of personality, to get into sex groups. Oh yeah, you had to be in reasonable shape and look good. Fat chicks were an anomaly. So it was far, far less prevalent than it is today with social media matchmaking algorithms doing all the work.

These young generations are so lost, completely clueless about the long term effects of promiscuity on emotional and mental health. Aside from the tiny minority of douchebags (chad) enabling all of this immoral hedonism, it's the average guy who will be collateral damage from the corruption of women.

Sadly, romanticism will be a casualty as well. Because let's face it, how will a typical guy get excited over a girl who has lost her innocence long ago, and is probably now bitter and jaded towards men because of the ones she pursued. And that's not even factoring in the ick factor of receiving strange DNA from so many men.

[–]localmicrodosechamp 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m 36 and I’ve done countless romantic gestures and men have never lmao

[–]sarkington -4 points-3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Women demand, men provide

Because women have the babies

This isn’t rocket science

[–]smallstarseekerDogs don’t deserve us. ❤️[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And they keep behaving like that even when babies are out of the question.

[–]sarkington -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So do dudes

[–]River_Archer_32 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

how trashy

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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