Women's preferences in men are culturally engineered

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-07-24T18:49:41+00:00

Different builds are advantageous for different lifestyles. That's why we don't all have the same one.

The slim "Mo Farrah look would be good for chasing prey over long distances.

The big Mike Tyson look would be good for battling the tribe next door.

The Bear Grylls physique would be good for surviving harsh winters.

Johnny_Autism · 2022-07-24T18:59:54+00:00

You're right that the kind of extreme musculature that we see these days could never have been maintained in ancient times. In fact it goes further than that, if you go and look at what was considered ''buff'' back in the day before steroids, it's crazy, they're basically just normal dudes.

Still, even back in hunter gatherer times there would have been some men larger and more muscular than others, and they would have been dominant. It's not really relevant that they would be much smaller than guys can achieve these days.

Incel_Dragonfly · 2022-07-24T18:50:06+00:00

Have you seen a bodybuilder from the 1920s? By today's standards their physique was terrible but they were undoubtedly muscular and, above all else, naturally attainable. If by "muscular" women were referring to that physical build then it could be argued that it is, indeed, biologically wired for them to enjoy a naturally muscular physique that still has some reserves of fat.

However, if we are talking "muscular" using modern famous actors like Chris Hemsworth as the reference, then no. Such lean, muscular physiques are a modern phenomenon and is 100% socially engineered.

sarkington · 2022-07-24T19:03:08+00:00

Women’s preferences in men were irrelevant up until 70 years ago

Culture proceeds that by quite a large amount of time

Glass_Bucket · 2022-07-24T20:23:21+00:00

The strange thing is that even though we usually say "women like buff guys because they're good protectors", the body type that women are most attracted to (i.e all those shirtless scenes in superhero movies) is actually when men are at their weakest. All those actors are usually incredibly starved and dehydrated, sometimes even on the verge of passing out. A lot of the actors describe the experience as genuinely miserable

todo_pasa_ · 2022-07-24T18:49:40+00:00

I don't think women go for the bodybuilder obsessed with proteins type of guy. I think that's just male fantasy. Bodybuilders were never attractive for hetero women.

Coincidentally I'm now watching a youtuber having a meltdown seeing Japanese ladies say exactly this lmao that they prefer lean muscular men instead of bulky ones

Edit to add: that also explains kpop popularity where women worship slim slightly muscular men.

NockerJoe · 2022-07-24T19:56:25+00:00

All great apes including hunans have been trending bigger for millions of years because its selected for. We aren't still that short for a reason.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-07-24T20:11:57+00:00

It is always a mysterious mix of biology and culture that is difficult to parse.

Furthermore, biological preferences are likely genetically encoded in a more generalized way than most people conceive of them. For example, most men have a kind of waist to hip ratio they are attracted to. However, the trend of this attraction can be extrapolated such that men respond even more positively to drawings of women with ratios that are basically impossible and have never existed.

So even if women never experienced men who look as cut and muscular as some men do now during our primary evolutionary period, that in no way rules out having a biologically-derived preference for such physiques. Perhaps even among the lean men of prehistoric times, women still preferred those who were a bit more muscular, setting the direction of their preference such that today's more muscular men can be seen as an extrapolation in that direction.

Nevertheless, as I said, it is complex. And one cannot fully know what the biological element of a preference is on its own terms, or know the relative weighting of biology and culture in a given preference is. After all, at some point of muscularity, a lot of women start to find it less attractive in some sense. At the same time, the dominance huge size can create over other men can also be attractive, even if the degree of muscularity and size has become unattractive in another sense.

We haven't figured all this stuff out yet by any means.

stats135 · 2022-07-24T18:59:39+00:00

Something does not need to exist naturally for nature to create an attraction towards it.

For example, studies have been done on baby birds that peck on the red dots of their parents beak. Scientists would paint a stick that was redder than anything that naturally occurred in the species and the baby birds would actually prefer that.

Something similar was done with adult birds. Scientists would remove the eggs and replace it painted fake eggs the size of basketballs, unrealistically large, and yet the birds would still try to hatch it.

Humans are obviously more complex, but the same principle applies.

purplish_possum · 2022-07-24T19:03:14+00:00

healthy hunter gatherer men were short SKINNY and LEAN

Successful hunting provides a huge increase in protein. Successful hunters from a lineage of successful hunters were not short and skinny.

When Europeans first contacted Native Americans the Europeans were amazed at how tall and vigorous Native American men were. Hunting in pre-Columbian America provided a diet with a lot more protein than Europeans got from the agriculture of the time.

Many Europeans noticed that Native Americans were living better lives and chose to "go native". The French embraced this -- hence the large number of Metis today. The English fought this impulse tooth and nail.

Throughout European history, barbarian tribes resisted transitioning to agriculture. They only made the jump when there was no other choice.

Women choose tall athletic guys because that body is indicative of a successful hunter from a line of successful hunters.

2022-07-24T19:33:06+00:00

This just in: humans are complex.

Also "women's desires are driven by cukture, not nature" Hmm and who drives culture? So women aren't part of that at all lol?

And men are above culture? What is the point?

StarchRunner · 2022-07-24T18:48:07+00:00

95% of his history he lived as a HUNTER GATHERER

Mostly gatherer, as more than 70% of his calories came from there, probably higher. Otherwise I agree with most of the premises.

I would do two counterpoints. Men who mated were in the minority in history and especially recent history. As a tribal animal, the chiefs and then later the kings had not only mate selection, but a greater number of mates.

Which comes to several things:

a mans ability to have power in a group is intoxicating to women
a man's size is more intoxicating to other men, which leads him to being intoxicating to women, as they're simply worshipping what the men of the group worship
a man need not big to lead a group, but then he must have other admired qualities and frankly work harder at them
size is less important in bigger picture of society but still dominates a lot of smaller groups

xzpw · 2022-07-24T19:07:22+00:00

Most shit is cultural. It’s hard to tell what is biological preference vs cultural because culture has such a dominate effect on everything people do.

It’s hard to analyze everything in a bubble. Also - I don’t think the nature vs nurture argument here really matters. Like who cares if X wants Y because of nature vs nurture. Our cultural influence is so strong that you can overrule quite a few seemingly “biological” preferences.

Brains are too plastic to be just completely biological for all decisions.

I’d focus more on what behaviors we would like to see in each other rather than why those behaviors exist (nature vs nurture - etc.).

GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B · 2022-07-24T18:54:58+00:00

This assumes that the average man procreated which is very unlikely. Instead, as is known with many other species, it is likely that a strong man would procreate until he is overthrown by a stronger man. The other men would be hunters and gatherers or just banished or killed.

AidsVictim · 2022-07-24T21:12:14+00:00

[permanently deleted]

caption291 · 2022-07-24T22:17:45+00:00

Peacocks would like to disagree with your logic.

Time_Animaal · 2022-07-25T01:03:23+00:00

Women do like slim men. They also like buff men. You're acting like these are two different things when Arnold had a 30 inch waist

Low Body Fat
Lean Body Mass

These are two different things.

Danielle Hunter is 6'5'' 250 pounds, maybe 12% body fat

I do think there might be something uncanny valley happening with bodybuilders and how their physique shows, but I don't believe at all that women don't find it attractive. The opposite, I think they're uncomfortable with how attracted they are to it. I also don't find it particularly promoted in society. We all know what Body Builders are but the highest grossing actors in 2021 were Samuel L Jackson, Tom Holland, Will Smith, Dwayne Johnson, Liam Neeson, Adam Driver, Woodey Harrelson, Robert Downey Jr, Dave Bautista, Paul Rudd and Josh Brolin.

Of those only Dwayne Johnson and Dave Bautista are body builder size, which is certainly a huge overrepresentation, but Dave Bautista plays a prop not a character, and Dwayne Johnson primarily plays an action star for men. They're both cast explicitly to sell their characters physical prowess.

Maybe a better example is Magic Mike which is explicitly selling women what they want. And these guys are all pretty big, but if they're male average height at 5'9'' I would guess they're around 170-180. It's also about the same physique we see on greek statues. these Hunter Gatherers are about the same though a bit slimmer. If they have a couple of good years and catch a lot of antelope or something they'd just get bigger from eating a lot of protein. The bigger the man, the more he eats so the more he is catching.

ragman75 · 2022-07-25T04:25:06+00:00

Several issues with this. Firstly pre historic humans where the same size on avg as people now, early agriculture shrank us and then we got back to our natural sizes with modern knowledge of nutrients.

Secondly you seem to be under the false impression that humans are naturally monogamous. This is not true our nature is to tend toward polygamy. So although the avg man may have been lean and avg height, the avg woman was largely still not choosing him. The avg woman only changed her mind when we developed socially enforced monogamy. And this only came about becuase we developed societies so big that we could not rely on familial relationships to ensure the bottom % of sexless men would contribute to and/or not destroy society.

Finally your point about body builders doesnt make sense. Yes women's preferences did not evolve when the liver kings of the world started to come into existence. However the human fondness for sweet things didn't evolve when coke came into existence. We have naturally developed preferences, that our modern human science helps us satisfy some times to the extreme. But it doesnt mean those preferences aren't natural.

wtknight · 2022-07-24T19:34:21+00:00

If women are wired to be attracted to men who will protect them, and buff men will protect a woman better than a skinny lean guy, then women will be more attracted to buff guys. It doesn't matter that every guy in the past was skinny and lean. If a buff guy time traveled to prehistoric times when every guy was skinny and lean, hypothetically women would have flocked to him if they thought that this man had a better chance of protecting them and their offspring.

I do think that some of our preferences are culturally engineered, but not that the one that women are more attracted to men who they think will better protect them and their offspring.

In certain cultures where men aren't particularly muscular, though, women might be slightly turned off to muscular looking men since such a look is "foreign" to them.

SoftAd6291 · 2022-07-24T18:56:23+00:00

Dad bod with strong arms >

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2022-07-25T00:33:13+00:00

My lizard brain demands lanky twunks or twinks so idk seems about right. Slim seems superior imo.

ruboyuri · 2022-07-25T03:12:52+00:00

“Women’s family’s/patriarch’s/owner’s preferences in men are culturally and economically engineered”

FTFY

f_ckupsomecommas · 2022-07-25T03:51:47+00:00

Generally people are attracted to others in their demographic. As someone of a lower socioeconomic status, I’m pretty limited. In certain circles I’m not considered remotely attractive, whereas in others I imagine I might appear as a viable option. I’m not entirely sure though, as this is all anecdotal. For instance wealthier girls generally have better options for men who look better than I do, yeah maybe I’m insecure but it’s true. Whereas in my own demographic, putting on clean clothing, having halfway decent hygiene, and not being either too skinny or too fat is enough to look better than most men. If you’ve got a drug problem forget about looking good unless you have money or are naturally gifted, you’ll be limited to girls of an equivalent variety. Don’t have an education? Are in trouble with the law? Yeah some girls will find you attractive without a doubt, but any girl worth your time will not want to be around that.

Once again I’m skeptical of the facts presented here, as many of these discussions on PPD seem pseudo scientific and full of confirmation bias. I definitely feel like you’re onto something; I’m even unsure as to whether arguments can be made in the opposing direction, at least at this moment.

kokorwqac · 2022-07-25T04:01:25+00:00

Yes, you're right that it is culturally engined, the hypermasculine or muscular thing was actually put out by closet gay men then it spread to women's preferences, (case in point in 1800's long haired thin dudes were the ideal) nowadays social media has more influence so we see gen z girls/women liking thinner prettyboys much more, though i always said good face is more important than whatever body type guys have

This also applies to men, the rail thin model look is boyish and is liked by closeted gay men without making it too obvious too, but in the past, ''fat' ' women were found hot

AidsVictim · 2022-07-25T04:58:45+00:00

Genetic changes which govern behavior take several hundreds of thousand years to occur, the buff look has really been only in-and-out since the antique. The "normal muscly" look that is now the norm for actors would be considered a extreme bodybuilding physique just 100 years ago.

Not saying it has occurred but evolution can happen at a very fast rate under the right circumstances.

Consider how certain populations already have genetic adaptions to foods or drinks produced through food processing and/or animal husbandry.

healthy hunter gatherer men were short SKINNY and LEAN

Not necessarily. Hunter gatherer groups could be quite tall. So could agricultural populations for that matter under the right circumstances.

KayRay1994 · 2022-07-25T05:28:11+00:00

so are men’s preferences towards women lol - what’s attractive and what isn’t has always been primarily driven by social norms and ideals - this isn’t a unique concept to anyone

-Living-Dead-Girl- · 2022-07-25T08:49:18+00:00

from what ive seen most women dont like big muscular men anyways, that's just what some men assume most women want.

spunkystoic · 2022-07-25T10:50:02+00:00

Fully agreed.

The "Buff Caveman" myth is just that, a myth imo.

Most stuff I've seen seems to point to early humans being trappers, persistence hunters, or - at the very least - working together as a unit to bring down game.

All this 100% leads to a slim, almost soccer player physique...which, surprise surprise, is what most tribespeople have.

Plopolok · 2022-07-25T11:26:33+00:00

We don't know exactly about hunter gatherers, but if you look at apes, the most successful males are the most beefed up ones. Intra-male competition is often more important for males than environmental pressure (being healthy).

beleidigtewurst · 2022-07-25T13:15:13+00:00

healthy hunter gatherer men were short SKINNY and LEAN

What made them short? Ah, your imagination.

That's ok.

beefed up look is a product of a MODERN agricultural society

That is why women find it attractive no matter where on Planet Earth they live. Figures.

culturally engineered

That is what cretins that embarrassed themselves once more time (this one is epic, I mean, publishing a chapter of "Mein Kampf" in all seriousness is quite an achievement) soy, I was told.

Sokal Squared (aka grievance studies affair)

If you wonder who the heck is Sokal:

Sokal Affair

platinirisms · 2022-07-25T13:38:22+00:00

Your whole argument is based upon the idea that bodybuilders are the most attractive. Which I personally disagree with, I believe the swimmers body is the most attractive, I.E Tall, muscular, and slim. Which is the perfect kind of body a hunter gatherer would have.

They we’re Short

Short by the our current modern standards. They were not “short” when they existed.

The taller men of those hunter gathered would still win because being taller simply meant being faster and stronger, which is useful in almost every circumstance.

2022-07-25T14:20:17+00:00

Genetic changes which govern behavior take several hundreds of thousand years to occur, the buff look has really been only in-and-out since the antique.

They definitely do not. For example agricultural effects are entirely reasonable because the portion of the population that was successful at agriculture grew at a far faster rate than the rest of the population. Any alleles that were associated with agricultural success would rapidly expanding in frequency.

That said, I don't think that's what's going on. I think you are just missing the baseline. The scrawniest male chimp in the world is bodybuilder-level jacked. All human males are "skinny" without drugs.

Title	Women's preferences in men are culturally engineered
Author	Johnny_Autism
Upvotes	20
Comments	133
Date	July 24, 2022 6:38 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/w72kah/womens_preferences_in_men_are_culturally/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/womens-preferences-in-men-are-culturally.1124989 https://theredarchive.com/post/1124989