Alright, so let's get one thing out of the way, I despise the Alpha-Beta dichotomy (mostly because reality is rarely ever so black and white), but there's something to be said in that there is some bit of truth spread throughout
So I'm going to use this definition for "beta male": cowardly, physically weak, non-confrontational, nerdy, overly nice, sexually inactive, sexually incompetent, sexually undesirable
You can call them weak men, nerds, losers, or whatever, but the point is you get what I mean; any man who ticks a few of the descriptors above is a "beta" by definition
So, let's get into this shall we? I'll list this out since there are several facets of self-improving
Warning: VERY long post.
Physically improving oneself
- Right off the bat, one thing I've noticed. When men begin to self-improve their physique, they're met with all sorts of BS from women, often unsolicited including, but not limited to
- "You're fine the way you are!"
- "Why don't you get some rest?" (usually said by someone who knows nothing about fitness who thinks working out 4 times a week is "too much")
- It's ok, enjoy yourself! (food-related)
- (enter something about being too concerned with how your body looks or body dysmorphia)
- Many men, especially on this sub, have heard "I don't find muscles attractive", and/or "So when you get buff, you think girls are just gonna like you all of a sudden?" (spoiler alert: yes)
- I didn't list this above, but I've also heard and seen girls use this against guys when they get angry, saying that the guy is compensating or trying to be tough because he goes to the gym or does martial arts.
- I've also seen other more subtle put-downs that occur when a guy who was previously weak begins to become not-so-weak
Getting more confident, arrogant, and less "nerdy"
- Now this is an interesting one. Usually what I see is that a man who the woman THOUGHT was a nerd or a shy geek or some shit like that turns out to be more confident than was assumed, all of a sudden he's "Pretending to be something he's not"
- Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "But what if his arrogance was just annoying?" or "Maybe he was a cocky asshole", and the thing is that you're right, but then when certain other guys do it, it's not a problem. And why is this? It's because a wom
- Nerds are often encouraged that they're "Ok the way they are" as well, when their own life experience (getting ignored by women, made fun of, and having no social life) proves otherwise
- Again, this is an example I've seen, but when a guy of this seemingly low caliber in women's minds stands up for himself, they lose their absolute fucking mind. Claiming that he's trying to be tough or that this "isn't him", when in fact that IS him, this is the shit that he always wanted to say to you; you're just upset that you can't walk all over him now.
Getting better with girls
- This is easily the most egregious one. Our mothers and society tell us all sorts of shit like:
- "Don't hit on women"
- "Be a gentlemen"
- "Don't be a player"
- Notice how it's almost never men saying this, except for the ones who are scared of legal repercussions for hitting on women (these men are often kinda paranoid though)
- This is often told to men who are bettering their dating abilities, but entirely to their detriment since it basically relies on a woman making the first move, which ensures basically no play
I would assume this was some isolated incidents, but I've seen men all over saying they experienced the same things, in some cases damn near verbatim,
Now, here IS the strange part.
When you actually succeed in whatever it is you were doing, they are actually supportive of you and will celebrate your victories with you.
When you actually become confident, good with girls, physically improved, etc., all of a sudden they're right behind you. The same women who said this to you are all of a sudden proud of you or in some cases even attracted to you now. At the very least when you've actually shown yourself not to be weak, THEN you're respected, but the process of getting there, people sure as hell aren't with you
This story derives from part of my experience (kinda; I'm not really an archetypal weak man or beta male. Ask if you want more detail; it's complicated), but more importantly the experience of tons of other men who are viewed as, or are, beta or weak.
FURTHERMORE: I'm not complaining; in my own case, I can say that the subtle attempts at making me quit drive me even further and made me even stronger; my successes in general are entirely because of my detractors.
FURTHERFURTHERMORE: This post isn't trying to support any pill or make a greater point, this post IS the point. Period.
EDIT: SO uh, my view has been changed surprisingly quick as I've realized that most of the time, it's probably people actually being good friends and not wanting to upset people
In the process I've also realized I may or may not be an asshole.
[–]WojakUnbound1 points [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link
Haha it's funny because I was thinking this just now
The way I see it, women prefer genetics over hard work
Why do you hear women say "girls don't care about muscles", because it sort of true, I mean, women do like lean muscles instead of having Chad's physique, BUT, if you're attractive enough (wide frame+good hair+good skin+height), you don't need to be muscular to be attractive, you could be skinny or average as long as you're not obese, if you're ugly, muscles won't make you much more attractive.
I remember hearing a woman say the reason women don't like this is because, even if you have muscles, your genetics means you'd still have small wrists or a pencil neck or look bloated if you're short.
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Working out is a meme. The only real self-improvement is making more money which is pretty much even more out of reach than building muscles for most people. When you are muscular people think "what is that guy compensating for?", it is the same thing as driving a 70k Truck.
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You can't work out your face and working out isn't going to compensate for lack of success in life.
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There’s pressure for men to not be shallow. Women are routinely applauded for expressing the most shallow dating preferences you’re ever likely to hear.
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coz they want a healthy beta male population to marry later on in their lives after they’ve hopped on sufficient number of alphas… haha joking don’t get mad ladies
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Honestly there’s a lot of truth in that.
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"Be yourself" just means women prefer men NOT to improve from zero to hero.
She wants a man who is naturally a hero.
The idea a man can become one is abhorrent to her, because it means her insane drive to find a biologically superior mate is practically mute.
For example, I've heard it said on many occasions that a woman would find it sexually repulsive to know that a man gets his sexual performance by means of an enhancement pill like viagra. She wants his sexual potency to be natural and innate.
The whole concept of "being ones self" is not to help men find love. It's to help women more efficiently vet men.
Men: do not be yourself. Be the man who gets lots of ass.
[–]Virtual-Visual76091 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
I think u r on the money literally. Women say money does not matter yet they want to be fined and wined. Wants gifts and experiences with status. A lot of that requires money.
I asked in the past. Which one do u like more a man with mansion or an apartment. The majority of women said an apartment and one said mansion.
[–]Insidious-Sid1 points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
Money never matters to women. Until there is not enough of it.
What matters to women is being mostly oblivious to their personal financial situations while enjoying the lifestyles of the rich and famous, my ex being a perfect example.
How a person can CONSCIOUSLY go further into debt 2 THOUSAND DOLLAR every month is simply beyond me. Adjusting to ones income or getting more money are simply not options for these people. They just rack up credit cards because they feel entitled to the lifestyle they think they "deserve".
I hear these people go into $100K or $150K over four or five years and I think JESUS CHRIST that didn't happen in a month it took FIVE GODDAMNED YEARS.
Yet, some just keep getting home equity loans and credit cards and paying interest only on their debt. I don't know how they sleep at night.
Don't they know they have to pay that back? Or go bankrupt??
[–]Virtual-Visual76091 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
So why do don’t they choose rich guys to pay their debt?
[–]Insidious-Sid1 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
Well, I told my ex she should get with a rich guy so she can afford her lifestyle. She got with a blue collar guy who made even less than I did.
One thing I recommend all men do - make a joke in the first couple of dates about credit card debt. If she lets on she's bad with credit and has maxxed out cards, run - do not walk - from such a woman.
And don't forget she doesn't consider $75K or $100K she spent getting fucked in college for her Liberal Arts degree to be "real debt" either.
I mean she had no choice.
She *had* to borrow $100K to get a degree in gender studies with a major in lesbian dance.
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Women do not want beta males stepping out of line and "pretending" to be alphas. That is fewer men to manipulate and use for resources and/or emotional support. And men who you would initially perceive to be unworthy of procreating with, appearing worthy and bypassing your hypergamous filter. Women CANNOT have this.
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Thats why you ignore the haters.
I personally experienced what OP talks about in his title though and not just from women. Guys will turn on you too. “Your too stuck up to hang out bro” sort of thing if you are working a lot, or going to the gym more or whatever.
[–]Spread-Em-Plz1 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
I never ignored them, but I internalized it and used it to grow stronger.
Maybe I have a problem .
However, my homies never turned on me. They were the ones most supportive (or hell, even the one who got me into it)
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Nothing you have said has anything to do with the topic at hand, just excuse yourself out of this conversation, you are behaving like a 2 year old.
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Wow you must be very attractive to inject that unrelated anecdote into this discussion.
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Good job commenting something completely irrelevant. Feel free to fuck off.
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I think you’re right on the muscles thing, because I do believe women genuinely mean it when they say it. It is impossible to be attractive or unattractive to every single woman on earth. It is possible to be attractive to most in a given area, and it isn’t wrong to state that there are features that most women are attracted to.
I’m not wrong to say most women like a body that has shoulders wider than their waist, or a full head of hair, or a defined jaw with a strong chin, or tall. You’ll run into women that may not think these things are attractive, but if you don’t have these things then it’s not wrong to say that your pool will be very very small.
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Quite an autistic rant, but I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying and in my experience much of this is true.
Though, I think you’re just demonizing women a bit too much here. I don’t think they are actively trying to stop you from improving, rather they do think it’s genuinely good advice. Except maybe when you say you want casual sex and ask them for advice, and the response usually is “well, you shouldn’t. You should find a relationship”. That is definitely being purposeful.
Also a note from from a guy who actually has BDD, I do think it’s thrown around a lot and many don’t actually understand what the condition entails. On the plastic surgery subreddit, ironically enough many users try to deter men from getting surgeries to make them more masculine. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen women claim “you have BDD” or “you’re attractive” when he’s got a weak jaw or eye area. No, he’s aware he’s average/unattractive, he wants to figure out how to fix it and there’s nothing wrong with that. BDD is straight up obsessing over these flaws to where you can’t function properly over them.
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Women don't EVER want to catch a glimpse of the sausage being made, so to speak.
They want the guy to be uber chad effortlessly.
That's why they also resent it if their partner takes a lot of time getting ready etc.
They want naturals, and they want other types of guys to "stay in their lane".
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