I got banned because I said some rude things to someone who was saying rude things. I'd normally be fine with this, the antagonist didnt get banned because the antagonist was a feminist and its okay to be rude there so long as you are a feminist.
Not really related. Just sharing my ban story... I'll leave.
I think women should be allowed to do whatever they want with an unborn child, however I also believe the father should be able to walk away at any moment before the child is born.
If the woman can't raise the kid without te father, then she should have an abortion or give the child up for adoption. It's their body and thus their responsibility (at least until the child is born).
I'm just letting you know that you can't enter into a legal agreement about child support because in the eyes of the law, it doesn't belong to you so you can't give it up.
The rest about denying a father his right to be a part of his child's life seems pretty fucked up to me, even if it's something you might get away with. I'd in general suggest either using birth control or not sleeping with degenerates if it's a big concern for you.
If I had a kid with a woman I was no longer in a relationship with, I'd sure as shit try to split custody, kids need dads too.
Which will result in more unwanted pregnancies going full term, thus more people getting on welfare, thus costing the tax-payer more money than of they funded planned parenthood.
Out of curiosity I checked to see if anyone had actually studied that.
The Guttmacher Institute examined the effects when some states stopped paying for abortions under Medicaid. The conclusion was that when the out of pocket cost for abortions rose women changed their reproductive habits and birth rates declined. Here is the study:
The Impact of Restricting Medicaid Financing for Abortion James Trussell, Jane Menken, Barbara L. Lindheim and Barbara Vaughan
The study is in JSTOR if you have access, strangely enough I can't find it on the Guttmacher Institutes website.
Another study came to the same general conclusion with a twist but I don't know if it was peer reviewed or who the group is behind it. http://www.nber.org/papers/w5066
People tend to make irresponsible decisions when sex is involved. There are areas in the brain working that have little to do with the prefrontal cortex.
This is originally how this worked. Lots of other countries have child benefits rather than chasing around fathers for money. Our American aversion to all things "socialist" is exactly what created the child support system that punishes noncustodial parents for being poor. It was designed to shrink the pool of welfare dependents like single mothers (and dads) and children.
Wow. Just so I understand you correctly, are you referring to the situation of woman having more options than men?
A woman can:
bear the child and force the man to pay
give the child up for adoption
If so you kind of blew my mind a bit. I never thought of that aspect and I would fully agree with you. I can't believe I never thought of this. I did a quick google search to figure out what the situation is and came across this. It doesn't even deal with the option of the father wanting to keep the child and the mother seeking adoption.
What would the situation be in that case? If a normal father wanted to keep his child but the mother seeks adoption, would she be forced to pay alimony?
From what I've found though in the mean time, if you father a child out of wedlock and you don't register yourself in a state run registry you're out of luck and won't even be notified if the mother gives the child up for adoption. You basically have no rights.
No. Because in this day and age having sex and creating a child are two separate things that are achieved using the same mechanism. She just wanted an orgasm but got involved in an accident.
Accidents happen and we accept that in every other domain.
By getting into your car on a race track, where the intention is to race against others, the implied risk of an accident is accepted and carried by every participant. If you are crashed into the one who crashed into you doesn't pay the damage to your car. You do.
It's in the State's interest. They want someone to pay for the child and raise it.
They could end up paying for the baby otherwise through welfare etc.
Society in general benefits for a well raised child and I would assume a father with a financial interest would be more likely to have a personal interest. It's no secret that children from poor and "bad" homes are more prone to crime and such.
It give men more incentive to care about "protection" which is probably always a good thing. Ya they should care about STDs, but there are a lot of situations (or poeple saying it won't happen to them) where they might not care about STDs. Pregnency is a lot of time considered 100% if you don't use protection, STDs ehhh they are car crashes and people text and drive all the time still.
It could lead to situations where women are coerced into an abortion they do not want. Ya maybe they should think about if they can pay for the baby instead, but it will never be a purely logical decision. Some people are wholly morally against abortion. Plus things like two 16 year olds getting pregnant: boyfreind doesn't want mom and dad to know. Threatens to not pay if she doesn't get an abortion, throws in some "your parents will disown you and you will be homeless", and it gets kinda sketchy.
That's a bit of a grey argument, but I think it gets compounded by the fact that men no longer have as much of an interest in birth control. How many unwanted pregnancies now are caused by not "pulling out". It could definitely get a bit sketchy sometimes, some people are shitty people, or ya know 16 and might see no repercussions for lying about "protection". "You can't get pregnant in a pool" "I will pull out" etc. If the man lies like this and the woman is morally against abortion does he still not have a repercussion?
Yes woman should be responsible for their own birth control too, but some people, say 16 year old catholic girl, might not really be able to.
With the amount of, whatever you want to call it, "stigma?" against BC and sex-ed in parts of this country (probably gunna increase soon here too with current political landscape), not knowing fully about or being able to get BC isn't a too uncommon of a foreseeable problem.
So all of that would then go back to the State's interest in having someone provide for the child. The father seems like a good candidate, or at least it might persuade a man to more carefully engage in sex as too reduce the burden on the state.
I don't disagree that the current system probably needs to change, I'm just throwing out arguments as to why it might be the way it is since you asked. It's tricky because you can't force abortions on people and someone needs to take care of the child.
It's the worst argument because it ignores what should be fundamental human rights for fathers to-be and mothers to-be.
The state is valuing the rights of the child over the parents here I think. I guess I sort-of agree, they are trading your rights for the well being of the child in a way. I'd guess because if everything goes to shit they are responsible for a child, but say homeless adults they don't care about.
If the option to opt-out were a thing, you could argue that it would incentivise women to care more about protection too due to the risk of the father opting out.
I guess I just meant that it would reduce it for men. Not really a argument for child support, just maybe something that would be a result of "opting out". Women already have an incentive maybe they would have more, but men would have less.
Yeah some people are really shitty. "I'm on the pill, I promise" comes to mind.
Unfortunately they both are problems with no real solutions unless people start signing sex contracts. I don't see how you prove either one. With my example you are just swapping the burden from men to women, but that doesn't make it a better system it just fucks over women instead of men.
You can't force abortions on people and you can't force motherhood on people, but you can force fatherhood.
I think there is a pretty clear difference between forced abortions and forced payments. Those payments obviously should be reasonable, but yes they are very different. I pay taxes, I'd rather not have the government control who can reproduce though.
...
Really at some point though a man chose to have sex fully knowing that pregnancy and child support could be a consequence.
You don't have to have sex, it is not a right, privilege, or requirement. You can't force people to have abortions. So someone gets a bit screwed no matter what.
Change the laws so they are reasonable sure, but not like the post suggested.
So if abortions were illegal this would be okay to say, "Really at some point though a woman chose to have sex fully knowing that pregnancy and child support could be a consequence."
That is exactly what people who think abortion should be illegal would say yes.
They are kind of different topics with their own arguments.
Ya I think women are just as responsible in the decision making and consequences part, but if abortion was illegal than you for sure have to pay child support so it would be even worse if abortion was illegal so it doesn't really matter.
It still never gets away from either you force abortions or someone has to pay and the government decided it isn't going to be them if the father can do it. There isn't any more too it really. So you have to pick one. You just can't have both, at least not unless you we do a 180 and decide welfare should be increased up the wazoo. It's not fair, it just sucks.
Simply making child support payments more of a fair system, not a you lost your job and you still owe X amount as if you didn't would probably do wonders. And women should have to pay child support too, not that they should have to have the baby, but plenty of women ditch out on being moms but get a free ride.
Generally speaking, when you commit a felony against the mother of your child, people who are making legal determinations about your parental rights tend to not favor the father.
nobody is saying he can opt out when the child is born but when the woman has the option to abort the baby and the man opts out she can either get the abortion or give birth it is up to her just the man will not have any financial burden because of her choice
First off the mother absolutely cannot give the child up for adoption if the father wants to be in the child's life. The father will get custody. The woman can however choose to have an abortion. The father gets no say in that decision.
Alright, that said, here are the possible outcomes.
Both parents want an child and they have a baby
Mother wants child, father opts out, mother has a baby knowing she will be a single parent.
Mother opts out, and chooses carry the child as a surrogate for the man, but bears no financial responsibility. The man pays a negotiated surrogate price and takes care of associated medical bills.
Mother aborts the pregnancy.
Mother has baby neither wants (WTF why?????)
4 out of 5 are good and are more free than the current system.
Ah yes the "a man is called a deadbeat for not choosing fatherhood" versus "the woman is called pro-choice for not choosing motherhood" argument aka women get to make unilateral decisions about their pregnancies. This has been making the rounds lately. I wonder why? 🤔
The two choices are not analogous. One is based on biology and one is based on law. Once a child has been conceived, it is the right of the child to be supported by both parents. There's nothing fair or unfair about biology. It is what it is. I can't pee standing up. Men have nipples. And what the hell are wisdom teeth even for??
Stop depending on women to take care of birth control.
Stop being so flippant about having unprotected sex with people.
Stop crying about the consequences of a decision you made equally with another person.
Be responsible. Practice condom application and when you use them ejaculate outside your partner. If you do both of those things you reduce the chance of pregnancy to a very minute degree.
If you're with a partner regularly, use condoms, spermicide, and ejaculate outside her.
DO NOT TRUST THE THINGS PEOPLE SAY ABOUT CONTROL IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT
TL;DR Superman can't fly without his cape. No glove, no love.
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I got banned because I said some rude things to someone who was saying rude things. I'd normally be fine with this, the antagonist didnt get banned because the antagonist was a feminist and its okay to be rude there so long as you are a feminist.
Not really related. Just sharing my ban story... I'll leave.
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Someone else posted it there and now it's on the front of that sub
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Rule 2 seems silly, since many of their posts are from info gained from other subs.
Though we all know that's not the reason they remove any posts like this even if it didn't come from another sub.
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If you read that without a chip on your shoulder, it means "don't post shit here just to provoke us." Which is literally EXACTLY what you guys did.
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I think women should be allowed to do whatever they want with an unborn child, however I also believe the father should be able to walk away at any moment before the child is born.
If the woman can't raise the kid without te father, then she should have an abortion or give the child up for adoption. It's their body and thus their responsibility (at least until the child is born).
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The child support belongs to your kid, not you so you can't sign away the right to it.
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I'm just letting you know that you can't enter into a legal agreement about child support because in the eyes of the law, it doesn't belong to you so you can't give it up.
The rest about denying a father his right to be a part of his child's life seems pretty fucked up to me, even if it's something you might get away with. I'd in general suggest either using birth control or not sleeping with degenerates if it's a big concern for you.
If I had a kid with a woman I was no longer in a relationship with, I'd sure as shit try to split custody, kids need dads too.
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Your terms are ridiculous and unrealistic. Not based in rationality.
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You don't need to do any of that, if the father doesn't want to be in the child's life then leave off the father from the birth certificate.
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well, then they will always be on the hook for child support
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Which will result in more unwanted pregnancies going full term, thus more people getting on welfare, thus costing the tax-payer more money than of they funded planned parenthood.
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Out of curiosity I checked to see if anyone had actually studied that.
The Guttmacher Institute examined the effects when some states stopped paying for abortions under Medicaid. The conclusion was that when the out of pocket cost for abortions rose women changed their reproductive habits and birth rates declined. Here is the study:
The Impact of Restricting Medicaid Financing for Abortion James Trussell, Jane Menken, Barbara L. Lindheim and Barbara Vaughan
The study is in JSTOR if you have access, strangely enough I can't find it on the Guttmacher Institutes website.
Another study came to the same general conclusion with a twist but I don't know if it was peer reviewed or who the group is behind it. http://www.nber.org/papers/w5066
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People tend to make irresponsible decisions when sex is involved. There are areas in the brain working that have little to do with the prefrontal cortex.
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[–]Vsx points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I believe the actual moral of the story is that you don't get super drunk with random assholes.
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[–]ciarao55 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
This is originally how this worked. Lots of other countries have child benefits rather than chasing around fathers for money. Our American aversion to all things "socialist" is exactly what created the child support system that punishes noncustodial parents for being poor. It was designed to shrink the pool of welfare dependents like single mothers (and dads) and children.
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[–]pointofyou points [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link
Wow. Just so I understand you correctly, are you referring to the situation of woman having more options than men?
A woman can:
If so you kind of blew my mind a bit. I never thought of that aspect and I would fully agree with you. I can't believe I never thought of this. I did a quick google search to figure out what the situation is and came across this. It doesn't even deal with the option of the father wanting to keep the child and the mother seeking adoption.
What would the situation be in that case? If a normal father wanted to keep his child but the mother seeks adoption, would she be forced to pay alimony?
[–]cellygirl 3 points4 points5 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]pointofyou points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
Sorry, what I meant was child support.
From what I've found though in the mean time, if you father a child out of wedlock and you don't register yourself in a state run registry you're out of luck and won't even be notified if the mother gives the child up for adoption. You basically have no rights.
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[–]13704 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
If you donate sperm to a single woman via a medical facility: no obligation.
If that facility is instead a bedroom for two with smooth jazz: automatic 20 year financial obligation.
I...don't understand.
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If a woman has sex of her own free will, hasn't she given tacit permission for her body to be used by the fetus she and her partner created?
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[–]pointofyou points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
No. Because in this day and age having sex and creating a child are two separate things that are achieved using the same mechanism. She just wanted an orgasm but got involved in an accident.
Accidents happen and we accept that in every other domain.
By getting into your car on a race track, where the intention is to race against others, the implied risk of an accident is accepted and carried by every participant. If you are crashed into the one who crashed into you doesn't pay the damage to your car. You do.
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It's in the State's interest. They want someone to pay for the child and raise it.
They could end up paying for the baby otherwise through welfare etc.
Society in general benefits for a well raised child and I would assume a father with a financial interest would be more likely to have a personal interest. It's no secret that children from poor and "bad" homes are more prone to crime and such.
It give men more incentive to care about "protection" which is probably always a good thing. Ya they should care about STDs, but there are a lot of situations (or poeple saying it won't happen to them) where they might not care about STDs. Pregnency is a lot of time considered 100% if you don't use protection, STDs ehhh they are car crashes and people text and drive all the time still.
It could lead to situations where women are coerced into an abortion they do not want. Ya maybe they should think about if they can pay for the baby instead, but it will never be a purely logical decision. Some people are wholly morally against abortion. Plus things like two 16 year olds getting pregnant: boyfreind doesn't want mom and dad to know. Threatens to not pay if she doesn't get an abortion, throws in some "your parents will disown you and you will be homeless", and it gets kinda sketchy.
That's a bit of a grey argument, but I think it gets compounded by the fact that men no longer have as much of an interest in birth control. How many unwanted pregnancies now are caused by not "pulling out". It could definitely get a bit sketchy sometimes, some people are shitty people, or ya know 16 and might see no repercussions for lying about "protection". "You can't get pregnant in a pool" "I will pull out" etc. If the man lies like this and the woman is morally against abortion does he still not have a repercussion?
Yes woman should be responsible for their own birth control too, but some people, say 16 year old catholic girl, might not really be able to.
With the amount of, whatever you want to call it, "stigma?" against BC and sex-ed in parts of this country (probably gunna increase soon here too with current political landscape), not knowing fully about or being able to get BC isn't a too uncommon of a foreseeable problem.
So all of that would then go back to the State's interest in having someone provide for the child. The father seems like a good candidate, or at least it might persuade a man to more carefully engage in sex as too reduce the burden on the state.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]advena_tempus_viator points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link
The state is valuing the rights of the child over the parents here I think. I guess I sort-of agree, they are trading your rights for the well being of the child in a way. I'd guess because if everything goes to shit they are responsible for a child, but say homeless adults they don't care about.
I guess I just meant that it would reduce it for men. Not really a argument for child support, just maybe something that would be a result of "opting out". Women already have an incentive maybe they would have more, but men would have less.
Unfortunately they both are problems with no real solutions unless people start signing sex contracts. I don't see how you prove either one. With my example you are just swapping the burden from men to women, but that doesn't make it a better system it just fucks over women instead of men.
I think there is a pretty clear difference between forced abortions and forced payments. Those payments obviously should be reasonable, but yes they are very different. I pay taxes, I'd rather not have the government control who can reproduce though.
...
Really at some point though a man chose to have sex fully knowing that pregnancy and child support could be a consequence.
You don't have to have sex, it is not a right, privilege, or requirement. You can't force people to have abortions. So someone gets a bit screwed no matter what.
Change the laws so they are reasonable sure, but not like the post suggested.
[–]TwerpOco 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]advena_tempus_viator points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
That is exactly what people who think abortion should be illegal would say yes.
They are kind of different topics with their own arguments.
Ya I think women are just as responsible in the decision making and consequences part, but if abortion was illegal than you for sure have to pay child support so it would be even worse if abortion was illegal so it doesn't really matter.
It still never gets away from either you force abortions or someone has to pay and the government decided it isn't going to be them if the father can do it. There isn't any more too it really. So you have to pick one. You just can't have both, at least not unless you we do a 180 and decide welfare should be increased up the wazoo. It's not fair, it just sucks.
Simply making child support payments more of a fair system, not a you lost your job and you still owe X amount as if you didn't would probably do wonders. And women should have to pay child support too, not that they should have to have the baby, but plenty of women ditch out on being moms but get a free ride.
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Generally speaking, when you commit a felony against the mother of your child, people who are making legal determinations about your parental rights tend to not favor the father.
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[–]idiotstupid875 points [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link
nobody is saying he can opt out when the child is born but when the woman has the option to abort the baby and the man opts out she can either get the abortion or give birth it is up to her just the man will not have any financial burden because of her choice
[–]Freeloading_Sponger 4 points5 points6 points (14 children) | Copy Link
[–]bungpeice points [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link
The difference is the child has been born. You shouldn't be able to opt out once the woman opportunity to have an abortion has passed.
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[–]bungpeice points [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link
First off the mother absolutely cannot give the child up for adoption if the father wants to be in the child's life. The father will get custody. The woman can however choose to have an abortion. The father gets no say in that decision.
Alright, that said, here are the possible outcomes.
4 out of 5 are good and are more free than the current system.
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$965 per month for 3 kids? That's my obligation for one kid. How did you manage that deal?
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Why do you have to pay anything if you have 50%?
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[–]TartofDarkness points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link
Ah yes the "a man is called a deadbeat for not choosing fatherhood" versus "the woman is called pro-choice for not choosing motherhood" argument aka women get to make unilateral decisions about their pregnancies. This has been making the rounds lately. I wonder why? 🤔
The two choices are not analogous. One is based on biology and one is based on law. Once a child has been conceived, it is the right of the child to be supported by both parents. There's nothing fair or unfair about biology. It is what it is. I can't pee standing up. Men have nipples. And what the hell are wisdom teeth even for??
Stop depending on women to take care of birth control.
Stop being so flippant about having unprotected sex with people.
Stop crying about the consequences of a decision you made equally with another person.
Be responsible. Practice condom application and when you use them ejaculate outside your partner. If you do both of those things you reduce the chance of pregnancy to a very minute degree.
If you're with a partner regularly, use condoms, spermicide, and ejaculate outside her.
DO NOT TRUST THE THINGS PEOPLE SAY ABOUT CONTROL IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT
TL;DR Superman can't fly without his cape. No glove, no love.
[–]Pleaseluggage 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link