As men, you need to do better

GiftOfBlackKnighting · 2020-08-21T19:42:31+00:00

Good trollpost.

As a non-american: Is this the female speaker man up! speech that is common in the US churches?

RedPillWonder · 2020-08-21T23:45:31+00:00

Honestly, I would consider myself to be a catch. I am eager to one day fulfill my role as a Godly, submissive wife. I’m an excellent cook, I enjoy cleaning, I love children and have a lot of experience working with them, and I would consider myself to be fairly attractive. I don’t wear a ton of makeup, but I have waist length blonde hair, green eyes, am well proportioned, and given the amount of male attention I receive, I would deduce that I am an attractive woman.

OK. This is the good part.

Well, it sounds good, but there's a catch.

And that is you say you're submissive but you're only conditionally submissive when you write this:

I want a man to open my door, stand when I enter, and treat me with respect if he expects me to be submissive.

See here.

And if he doesn't do these things, will you still submit?

Based on your words, my guess is no.

Question for you: If a woman doesn't cook, clean or do traditional things the husband wants, does he still have to love her as God commands?

Or if she's shrewish, contentious and ungrateful, does he still have to provide?

The biblical answer is yes, he does.

But you seem to be saying unless certain conditions are met, you don't have to do your part that God commands.

This is very wrong. A husband is commanded to do things (such as love and provide) regardless of how his wife acts, which is a very tough standard.

Likewise, a wife is commanded to do things (such as submit to and reverence her husband) regardless of how her husband acts, which is also a very tough standard.

Get this conditional stuff out of your mind and find a man (and you be the woman) who is committed to following God and His Word without attaching conditions to it before you and him start obeying the Lord.

Traditional men are honestly a disappointment.

Depends on your definition of traditional. You say you want certain things (and honestly, some of those like opening a door is simply good manners and standard operating procedure for most Southern men).

But so are other things you may not like.

For instance, asking for permission to marry you, and standing for a lady upon her entrance is traditional to some, but so is a woman changing a baby's diapers the vast majority of the time, if not all of it (with exceptions for the mom being very sick) as it was considered women's work.

So how "traditional" do you want to be?

Sincerely, and not sarcastically, because people have this idea in mind of what's traditional and what's not based on their own preferences or cherry picking things they like from certain eras, but leaving out others they dislike.

There are men out there that are exactly like what you prefer, but they may be traditional in other areas as well and want things you may or may not be willing to give. Things to consider.

They want the perks of having a submissive wife who does the housework and cooking, but they also want the perks of a working wife.

Not all.

A truly traditional Christian man wants a woman who adheres to God's Word, which submission is a part. He views it as a priority, not a perk. The same as he views his own biblical responsibilities.

However, they balked at the idea of sharing housework. Why is it expected I will work 40+ hours a week while doing full childcare and housework?

Many men here consistently help their wives with house work. Like I said, there are plenty out there. But it's not just the amount of hours each puts in, as u/Red-Curious has commented on, so be careful not to "keep track" of work that way, as it's not a good measure.

A stay at home mom is a full time job

It certainly can be.

But just as there are men here who help with housework, many of these men whose wives stay home can tell you their wives don't treat it as a job or put in the same effort they would have to if they worked full time outside the home and were accountable to their boss. Things are left undone, promises to do "abc" not kept, and on it goes.

If you're looking for examples of guys who aren't good men and live up to that title (and obviously experiencing this in your dating life), you can find them, just as you can find examples of gals who aren't good women.

Do you write posts and tell them to "do better?"

You should. Both sides can always improve, and we'll doing our part here to help make that happen.

and that has been a dealbreaker in every relationship I have been in.

What are your "must haves" and what "deal breakers" do you have?

Maybe your standards are too high, or maybe too low.

But I’m really starting to get sick of traditional men.

Again, depends on your definition of traditional.

Things that used to be taught in many schools, supported by the culture and instilled by parents are things that would highly offend many "traditional" women.

What ever happened to paying for dates, planning dates, wooing me, opening doors, buying me flowers, standing when I enter a room, asking my father for permission, ect?

Nothing wrong with any of these (context depending) and a lot of we teach or encourage here. u/Deep_Strength has talked about how traditional women like yourself have an expectation of paying for dates, and he has repeatedly encourage men to do that if they want a woman like that.

Planning dates? We talk all the time about a man leading and taking charge, and while this focuses mainly on weightier issues, this can certainly apply to date planning and a man leading the way. We've talked about this too.

One of the things we warn about though, is a man could give you every single one of the things you want, he could open every door for you, bring you flowers, plan and pay for dates, woo you until the sun comes up and say that he loves you (song reference), but if he isn't doing the main things here you will lose all respect and attraction for him despite him doing everything you say you want.

I feel like traditional values that men hold are now completely one sided and I am extremely disappointed. They want a traditional and submissive woman, but they don’t hold up their end of the bargain.

How so? Do you have examples from a mod or EC on this sub who has stated or encouraged such things?

Honestly, I would consider myself to be a catch. I am eager to one day fulfill my role as a Godly, submissive wife.

You may be a great catch!

But a very traditional Christian man values things you didn't list.

A very traditional Christian man wants a virgin woman (or one with a very low N count), do you have that to offer?

If yes, I encourage you to stay that way until marriage. If not, stop and don't add to it. And "low" is likely defined very differently between men and women, so factor that in.

A very traditional Christian man wants a committed woman, one who isn't just great at the beginning, but later lets herself go, but rather, throughout the years and decades is committed to him and their marriage, and she stays faithful to God and His Word, to her husband, keeps doing the things she was doing at the beginning that demonstrated she was a good wife (Proverbs 31, Titus, and others are good scriptural examples), keeps her looks up as best she can, and more.

To quote Proverbs "she will do him good and not harm all the days of her life."

Commitment and consistently over time, not just amazing at the start, and lacking at the end.

The same goes for him. Make it easy for your spouse is another for both men and women to read.

A very traditional Christian man is going to want to know you're both on the same page with regard to 1 Corinthians 7 and not denying sexual rights to each other's body. Are you committed to that?

The same goes for him.

The rights to your husband's body belong to you, and yours to him.

With love, common sense and understanding (if one is sick as a dog, dead tired, etc) you move Heaven and earth to make sure you're together if the other wants it.

And on and on.

There are many things a traditional man will want (just as you have your preferences) but the main thing for both is adhering to God's Word without reservation, conditions or explaining away a scriptural command.

In short, yes, there are men out there like what you want. You'll find him. Just know he will have his preferences as well and his views may be even more "traditional" than yours.

To address what I think is your main argument, though, I do think it's healthy and good for a woman to stay home full time (especially when they have children) and the wife can focus on the house and related activities while the husband works and provides for his household.

It doesn't have to be this way, but that is a model I certainly support and I think provides one of the best (if not the best) scenarios for a happier, more successful marriage and environment to raise godly children.

I hope you find that. I'll pray for that for you.

OsmiumZulu · 2020-08-21T20:34:50+00:00

This post illustrates why polygamy has been practiced all over the world after times of war. The men fought and died and there weren't enough left for every woman to have her own. Yet today, instead of men going off and dying, they just aren't becoming men at all. This is endemic in the church today.

OrlandoTheAxe · 2020-08-21T23:37:34+00:00

Men need to do better.

You are correct. Speaking to your experience, someone who is fit, confident, and balanced is still not a good leader if he cannot steward the things that God puts under his care. That's why RPC advocates so strongly for men to OYS (Own Your Stuff). Owning (taking responsibility for) the household is part of it.

What ever happened to paying for dates, planning dates, wooing me, opening doors, buying me flowers, standing when I enter a room, asking my father for permission, ect?

My neighbor trained his dog to stand when he enters a room. By what logic does having a vagina entitle one to being treated as if she is on a higher plane of existence? Chivalry is part of what got our society into this predicament in the first place.

Rock_Granite · 2020-08-22T01:39:22+00:00

This is not a men-need-to-step-up problem. This is a you-need-go-fix-your-man-picker problem

rocknrollchuck · 2020-08-22T19:35:45+00:00

I was raised in a very traditional Christian family with traditional Christian values. Honestly, I would consider myself to be a catch. I am eager to one day fulfill my role as a Godly, submissive wife. I’m an excellent cook, I enjoy cleaning, I love children and have a lot of experience working with them, and I would consider myself to be fairly attractive. I don’t wear a ton of makeup, but I have waist length blonde hair, green eyes, am well proportioned, and given the amount of male attention I receive, I would deduce that I am an attractive woman.

You do honestly sound like a catch...so far.

So I am also highly educated. I speak three languages, and have a masters degree in chemical engineering. My grandpa was a car mechanic so he also taught me to do all my car maintenance (within reason, like oil changes, tire rotations, changing break pads, ect..). I have no debt, make a lot of money

None of these are things a high value man values in a wife.

when it comes to living my life, I don’t exactly “need” a man to survive

Traditional men are honestly a disappointment.

I’m really starting to get sick of traditional men.

I feel like traditional values that men hold are now completely one sided and I am extremely disappointed.

Do better please.

Well....so much for sounding like a catch. If these are the complaints you have in a post on a sub where men are putting the effort in to improve themselves and live godly in Christ Jesus, I can't imagine your attitude in day to day living. You sound like a difficult person to get along with, very strict and demanding. The literal opposite of a submissive wife.

While I would dearly love to be a stay at home mom one day, I can accept if it is not possible.

I also enjoy my work immensely.

These two things are at odds with each other. It would be almost impossible for a stay at home Christian mom to fulfill her God-given role as a full-time housewife, mother and life-teacher to her children AND be a full-time, driven career woman as well. Consider:

They want the perks of having a submissive wife who does the housework and cooking

they also want the perks of a working wife.

Every man I have dated expected me to continue working after having children

As a man reading this post, what I see is that every man you have dated is one of two things:

either he is not as high value as you claim, in which case your vetting skills have been rightly called into question by many commenters here.

Or,

the men you date know that you are a career-driven woman who would never give up her career to be a full-time stay at home mother and wife, so knowing you will insist on continuing to work full-time they lay out their expectations for the things they consider important in marriage while making it clear that they won't stop you from pursuing your career as long as those conditions are met. While they may not state this outright, I believe this is really what you're facing.

I think you have very little chance of finding what you truly seek in a mate if you are set on pursuing your career as well. Consider the story of the rich young ruler in Matthew 19 and apply the principle to finding a husband. It may be that you have to give something up to get God's best for your life. Pray and ask God to reveal to you what you should do, and ask Him for the strength and determination to obey whatever He tells you. You have my prayers as well.

ENTPunisher · 2020-08-21T21:04:29+00:00

Is that you?

Yeah, you're getting rightfully called out on the hypergamy but this is still pretty based.

So many Christian "men" send their wives out into the workplace where they spend all their time with other men. Why do people want their wife to act like a man and spend her time around a bunch of other men all day? Why do they want their wife to come home stressed? Why do they want their kids to be in some daycare/public-school getting indoctrinated by some idiot liberals?

The answer is simple - they want to keep up with the Jones' and have their tasteless McMansion with their marble counter tops and swimming pool. They care more about that than their family. Both men and women are to blame for this mindset where money is prioritized over family.

I'd rather have a modest existence and do things GOD'S WAY.

Men are made to work.

Exodus 20:9-11 - "Six days shalt thou labour"
1 Timothy 5:8 - "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Women are made to be keepers of the home.

Titus 2:5 - "To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

So many problems are caused by defying the natural domestic order established by God.

Godly, submissive wife. I’m an excellent cook, I enjoy cleaning, I love children and have a lot of experience working with them, and I would consider myself to be fairly attractive. I have no debt

These are the things a woman would be valued for.

So I am also highly educated. I speak three languages, and have a masters degree in chemical engineering. My grandpa was a car mechanic so he also taught me to do all my car maintenance (within reason, like oil changes, tire rotations, changing break pads, ect..). make a lot of money

And these are all things that a man would be valued for. Isn't it funny how the modern sexual marketplace is so bad that people are starting to emulate traits they want to see in the opposite sex? I'm guilty of it too with my tradwife-tier cooking hobby.

Red-Pill-Redemption · 2020-08-21T20:17:22+00:00

I'm highly educated.

I speak three languages,

have a masters degree in chemical engineering.

I have no debt, make a lot of money

Wait for it...

the likelihood of attracting a ~~traditional~~ man with a higher value than mine is very slim.

^ A perfect example of Hypergamy.

Yes it is very slim. The men who you will find attractive only exist in a very small percentage of the male population. On top of this slim likelihood, you would also need that man to be christian. Yikes.

Yes, it's true that men do need to "Do Better"...But what do you think this whole sub is about? That's exactly what we're trying to do here.

Going forward, I would say that prayer is your best friend. In order to find a husband that you find genuinely attractive, will only come from God's providential hand.

Knightfall21 · 2020-08-22T17:45:03+00:00

Here's my perspective as a 26 yo single guy that's got my life in order and looking for a spouse.

If it's one thing I've learned from RP, it's never fight hypergamy. I've got a bachelor's engineering degree and am set up with a good job at a good company. Further, with my finances and investments, I expect to be able to comfortably support a family in the future even without my engineering income. I speak 2 languages fluently. I'm a dedicated, masculine Christian man. If I was considering dating you, I would immediately disqualify you based on your education and litany of skills you acquired to make yourself independent. Why? Because hypergamy dictates that you will never be satisfied with a man that you perceive less than you (which is also obvious by the sentiment of your post). You've priced yourself out of the market and no Red Pill aware guy would want to commit you given hypergamy and your high perception of self. Of course, the exception is you actually attracting a top 1% guy who is superior in all your categories, who you wouldn't look down upon. But clearly, you haven't been able to do this. So you've severely restricted your dating pool.
You're strong bent toward independence is unattractive. You enjoy your work immensely and have worked hard to man-proof your life in nearly every area. In an age where divorce rape is a common occurrence, your bent toward independence along with your low tolerance for deviation from your high demands (the demands themselves are reasonable imo) makes you a flight risk which is not only unattractive but could pose a heavy financial and legal toll in divorce.

This is how high value RP men perceive you. These 2 things may be a big reason you have trouble attracting the high value man you are looking for.

Sigma-Angel_of_Death · 2020-08-21T19:42:10+00:00

I wouldn't call them "traditional" if they want a working wife. I personally don't want my wife to work any longer than necessary, so she can be free to focus on the house and our future kids. Based on your experiences, it seems that men have been indoctrinated by feminism as badly as women have.

NoFaithInThisSub · 2020-08-22T02:11:30+00:00

I would consider myself to be a catch.

you are full of pride and delusion.

The title of your thread says it all.

Don't be a bitter old childless hag in the future because "men are the problem".

fix your self and stfu.

pmjones · 2020-08-21T20:52:19+00:00

Good troll post. Meanwhile: it is not for women to announce that men (as men) must "do better," "man up," etc.

BroChapeau · 2020-08-22T00:07:44+00:00

Opposite problem. One of my life goals has been to ensure my wife doesn't need to work, but my woman is the sort of person that wants to work anyway yet gets annoyed that I don't do half the housework, etc.

Bottom line is in a society of splintered cultural points of view it's plain straight up difficult to find a person who shares your values, that's all.

Altruistic-Manner448 · 2020-08-22T15:32:27+00:00

How old are you?

Hipstergirly · 2020-08-21T20:32:23+00:00

Thia is why I am an anti feminist.. To be honest my husband and I considered that lifestyle pretty normal .. Until we heard pastors speaking out about our true roles God gave us .. Today I am the stay at home mom and my husband is the provider.. Maybe you just need to convince them

Proverbs_31_2-3 · 2020-08-21T21:14:54+00:00

[deleted]

El0vution · 2020-08-21T20:02:31+00:00

Yes we need to do better. That is the purpose of the Red Pill. We can build an army of young men in time. Anyway it seems like only a RP Christian man can fulfill your requirements, so at least you’re in the right place.

3yeof0siris · 2020-08-21T22:09:31+00:00

Hmm, tell me something I don’t know.

LittleProfessional5 · 2020-08-22T04:19:04+00:00

Just FYI there are christian men who want stay at home wives. Most men who know you probably assume that with a masters you are happiest working STEM. Men that want stay at home wives probably won't bother to ask you out. See what you can do to vet for the right guys.

Reality_LB · 2020-08-22T15:20:50+00:00

I don't know any men like this. Are you going for Brad Pits or something?

Willow-girl · 2020-08-22T15:37:02+00:00

However, they balked at the idea of sharing housework. Why is it expected I will work 40+ hours a week while doing full childcare and housework?

This is just the way it is. I don't mean to be flip; simply that I banged my head against the wall for decades over this question. I have had marriages fail over my partners' refusal to "do their fair share." Reluctantly I came to the conclusion it ain't gonna happen. Full stop. Men are their own thing; they're not defective women. It's better to simply accept them as they are, because it sure doesn't work to try to change them into something they're not.

That doesn't mean you have to suffer in silence, though. Find solutions to your problems that don't require input from your partner. For instance, want to be a SAHM? Bankroll a whole bunch of money that will enable you to take a couple of years off work. Husband doesn't help around the house? Use some of your earnings to hire a cleaner. Basically, don't rely on a man for anything! That way, you can be grateful for what he contributes, instead of resentful if he doesn't do much. Always focus on your husband's good qualities and your own shortcomings, not the other way around. That is the secret to a happy marriage IMO.

metal_and_fire · 2020-08-22T22:48:52+00:00

First, your post sounds like more of a rant than anything else. Rants are fine, rant all you want, but don't use them to tell us to "do better." You've stumbled on one of the only communities of Christian men actively on a quest to be better men. It's a long journey. Don't give us crap for not being done yet.

Second, what exactly do you mean by "traditional men"? It sounds like an arbitrary idea that you've attached some random behaviors to.

paying for dates, planning dates, wooing me, opening doors, buying me flowers, standing when I enter a room, asking my father for permission

Is this what you expect a traditional man to do? Ignoring that the last two sound like you're trying to live some 1950's high society fantasy, how are these good indicators of a man's quality? Any clown can do these things. Does that make him a man worth your time? How about instead you look for things like good character, inner and outer strength, devotion to his mission, devotion to God, etc.?

Those are timeless indicators of a good man. If you find a man with those traits, even one who didn't get your dad's permission to ask you out, you'll be far happier with him than with the dudes you've been with, the ones that check all the "tradition" boxes but sound like they're after a sugar mommy who will do all the work and pay all the bills while they fart around all day.

Don't give up hope on meeting someone. But do give up on your preconceived notion of what a man "should" be. You say you keep ending up with dudes that have the same problems. There are two reasons for that. Either that's the only kind of guy you attract, or you're rejecting everyone but them. Since we humans are messy and complex, its probably some combination of both.

Basedandmemepilled · 2020-08-21T21:14:04+00:00

[deleted]

blkstar13 · 2020-08-22T16:24:08+00:00

yo you sound awesome! what you want sounds logical

Fantasiadreamcicle · 2020-08-21T21:23:25+00:00

Good for you girl!! It's great that you are so self aware and know exactly what you want and need before entering a marriage. Unfortunately men in the developed word are too busy jerking off to straighten up! Sorry!! I hope God has the perfect man for you.

2020-08-22T09:25:58+00:00

These comments seem oddly negative and it upsets me deeply. As a young woman I also have had a similar problem you do. Something I did was look to convert a non Christian man. Now he may have not grown up with Christ in his heart but he has him in there now. Or maybe even a man that’s not exactly into religion but very spiritual and willing to learn more about our god. A lot of men truly don’t understand how we feel as women and our experiences. All you can really do is pray.

MuscularJesus420 · 2020-08-21T22:03:26+00:00

Tbh as a man I don't really understand why some men want their wives to do all of the cooking and cleaning as for buying them dinner I mean they have their own money so spend it, holding doors if I'm going first yes I would but I'm not going out of my way to do that it's not like both of her arms are broken, buying flowers that are going to die in a couple of days is just a waste of money and as for standing when you enter a room lool who do you think you are why am I doing that?

Title	As men, you need to do better
Author	formaggiofritto
Upvotes	18
Comments	113
Date	August 21, 2020 7:34 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RPChristians
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/ie3le0/as_men_you_need_to_do_better/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/as-men-you-need-to-do-better.168102 https://theredarchive.com/post/168102