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How much to value physical attraction in dating

December 11, 2017
9 upvotes

Couldn't think of a better place than RPC to post this question.

I'm dating a lot of girls at my University, and the pick-2 3-check axiom has proven itself consistently accurate

_ Hot

_ Single

_ Christian

I have found at best a 6/10 who is single and Christian (and over 20). She's really into me, and she's awesome. Intellectual, engaging, studies Engineering like me, and deeply wants to grow in Christ.

I think our subjective perceptions of beauty are a result of the Fall, but that's a theory at best and a rabbit hole of theological considerations regardless. My point is, I can't help but want a sexy girl. I guess my question is, should I abandon this desire like I do many of my other desires? Is it unbiblical? Solomon quotes about wanting a sexually attractive wife come to mind, but I am not sure it's enough to convince me that it's better for me to pursue more attractive but less godly women. Where is that balance?

Additionally, with a hot woman, I don't get the security of knowing there are less Chads pursuing her.

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Post Information
Title How much to value physical attraction in dating
Author macmeeler
Upvotes 9
Comments 34
Date December 11, 2017 4:35 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RPChristians
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/how-much-to-value-physical-attraction-in-dating.302099
https://theredarchive.com/post/302099
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/7j3bbt/how_much_to_value_physical_attraction_in_dating/
Comments

[–]g_e_m_anscombeCatholic | 28F Married 3y2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I don’t assign much value to physical attraction, as I’ve tried to structure my brain so that I am attracted to virtue (brad pitt = adulterer = ugly, faithful Christian = attractive). I know Christians who disagree with this approach, because they believe beauty is objective. I also believe beauty is reasonably objective, but I think the beauty of virtue greatly outshines physical beauty. Ergo, in the new heavens and the new earth, Mother Teresa will be more beautiful and will outshine Carrie Underwood, and the blinding radiance of her virtue will overpower everything else. On a scale of 100, maybe 1% will be physical and 99% will be character. So why focus on the physical 1% rather than the 99% that far outweighs it?

Even so, I would wonder whether this girl is a true 6/10. Many Christian and engineering girls are not particularly good at making themselves super attractive. (They often wear less makeup and won’t dress as immodestly.) The makeup factor is huge. I’d go so far as to say that in the US, I think there are no 10/10s without makeup to most men. It amazes me how shitty men are at figuring out whether a woman is wearing makeup or not. My mom never wore makeup, so it took me longer to figure out how to do makeup well. Makeup can easily add 2+ points. Also, clothing and haircuts make a big difference. You might try to see if you can get this girl to doll herself up a bit more. Maybe with a bit of effort she could be a 7 or an 8.

[–]macmeeler[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Didn’t realize you were a girl for 80% of my reading :P

I definitely am solid at realizing how much of a woman’s beauty is just her makeup. My last girlfriend (she was a non-believer) would literally not leave the house without 2 hours of prep time, 1 hour of that solely on makeup and hair. I really love when a girl doesn’t need to cake on her face. Mostly because when I eventually saw her without makeup on for the first time, it was unbelievable (she actually went from looking like a 10 to a 3). Now I analyze the makeup game :P

I’m not going to ask her to doll herself up more despite wanting to. Doesn’t seem like a natural thing to do because a) she doesn’t already do it, I don’t particularly feel comfortable trying to change a person and b) I don’t think it’s entirely rational of me to be attracted to makeup in the first place. I’m the problem.

But yeah, she could definitely be a hypothetical 8 with some more work put into her appearance. She has nice curves and a great smile.

But with no makeup except eyeliner, the most bland/unexciting glasses on, and boring clothing, it just kills the attraction

I wish I didn’t feel this way. I like her

[–]g_e_m_anscombeCatholic | 28F Married 3y1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In my case, my husband and I compromise. I will do light makeup on most days, but will put more of an effort in for dates or special occasions. I’ve got my 5 min routine and my 20 minute routine. I’ll take off my glasses during dinner or in bed.

Regarding curves, you probably have no clue what you’re missing. My husband wasn’t interested in me in high school because I wore frumpy t-shirts every day. When we reconnected after college, he realized what a mistake he’d made. But it wasn’t until a year into being married that he fully realized how killer my curves are. It took me finally finding a great bra company (that specializes in small bands, large cups) and a clothing company that makes attire for small waisted, large busted women. Anything from a normal company is designed for a B cup and probably adds he appearance of 20 lbs to my waist. As Christians, her curves are something you probably won’t fully get to enjoy before you get married.

But part of the idea is that if you saw her as an 8 once, that might increase your attraction to her enough that this wouldn’t bother you anymore. In the end, the changes you would ask her to make are fairly superficial. I think I would have been willing to make some of those changes at 17 to have a shot at my husband. Then again, by 23, I did have some standards. I won’t spend more than 5 minutes a day on average because I think too much more time than that is purely vanity. Some days, I need to lounge around in a less supportive bra that doesn’t highlight my assets. But as love developed, my husband has grown more and more attracted to me. He finds me cute with messy hair and sweatpants, and sexy when I dress up for date night.

Have you heard of the song that goes “If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife”? I think there’s something to be said for the 6 or 7 who can be an 8 or 9 when dolled up. She’s less fickle than the true 8 or 9. She’s more likely to appreciate her man. She’s probably got better character (because she hasn’t been handed everything on a platter) which will make her stay faithful. Rollo says that being willing to have add sex whenever your husband wants adds 2 points to the attractiveness meter. Due to increased dread, a 6 is more likely to gain points in this way.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

kills the attraction

Red Pill has the answer and it is called the boner test. It is pass/fail with no middle ground. If she passes then you advance to the next round. If she doesn't then you are being a cruel, unChristian pooplord leading on this girl in her prime hunting years.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the beauty of virtue greatly outshines physical beauty.

Hmm tough one. Words or Tingles. Which one should we believe?

One can appreciate a painting or movie without liking the actors or director just as one should be able to appreciate natural beauty in people without necessarily liking their moral character.

My wife mentioned once that she would cheat on me if Brad Pitt called. Classic fitness test so I told her "Good Gravy, I would probably cheat on you with Brad Pitt. I mean Tyler Durden AND Achilles?"

in the new heavens and the new earth, Mother Teresa will be more beautiful and will outshine Carrie Underwood, and the blinding radiance of her virtue will overpower everything else.

Now we are in agreement. Bless you!

[–]g_e_m_anscombeCatholic | 28F Married 3y0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Words or Tingles. Which one should we believe?

I’m saying that Brad Pitt doesn’t even induce tingles in me because I find his behavior morally disgusting. It’s like the bimbo who’s so dumb she becomes less attractive.

That’s not to say that I’m perfect. I would probably be more attracted to a good-looking, OK Christian more than a hideous saint. But, eh, we’re all works in progress.

[–]shr3dthegnarbrah1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This is kind of like creating a mega-successful company. Only one of them has to be a home run. I guarantee that by the time you're 30 you'll be able to look back and see that you had shots at women who satisfy your 3/3. I think the real sticking point is that the ones you think are candidates aren't single. They'll be single at some point, or else she'll branch swing to you, either way the problem then is execution.

Stay picky. I'm 30, my stock has only gone up. My playing field has only become bigger.

[–] points points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]shr3dthegnarbrah1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just don’t live in a nice town. (Where I used to live, there were stunners left and right)

I feel like you've answered your question here.

[–]shr3dthegnarbrah0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You know the idea of "that girl from summer camp" who was so hot because you were in an isolating situation? Kind of like "the hottest girl in a tiny town"? Even if you go to a big school (I went to a 40k+ state school), it's pretty unlikely that you're really grasping all of the opportunities around you. You'll have a whole new draw after college.

Even within college, perspective is hard to gain without putting in time and changing your angle on things. There were at least two more "college ministries" at my university than the one that I attended. There were wonderful women that ran in those circles, I knew some of them, but I know I never met many more of them.

You'll definitely note quality women marrying off before or right around graduation, and you could be one of those, but it's not your only option. If you'd allow me to speculate I'd say that ~25% of "the good ones" married in that time frame.

I'd encourage you to remember that this story is so much more about you and your choices / drive / accomplishment / frame than it is about landing "the one".

This might be sound crass in this subreddit but, from my vantage point at 30yrs old, I could've married 1000 different women and what my life has come to be is still mainly a story about me.

TL;DR: At every moment in your life it feels like the "now" matters the most; it probably doesn't.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You'll have a whole new draw after college.

Yah, about 1% of the choice that he has now.

[–]BornRedy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A huge fear of mine is that as time passes, any girl actually worth marrying (from our standards) will already have been scooped up.

This is a huge lie you have been fed from society. Although you need to filter it through a Christian lens (I am not well enough read in Christian RP books to recommend better) I highly recommend your read the Rational Male. It should help with this fear.

In summary, woman want you to think you they will all get married etc and be forced to marry a not ideal woman. You can do better. Your stock only goes up as you get older. Women fall off on their stock and feel the pressure to get married and so they stigmatized marrying younger woman.

Get over this stigma and the fear of dying alone. This is a fairy tale myth (also covered in Rational Male). From strictly a Christian perspective, the point of our life is to make disciples (Phil 1:22-25). And we have a loving Father who is for us and who does that which is best for us (Romans 8:31-39, Luke 11:11-13) Edit: I wanted to caveat that this is best as he defines it. He doesn't always give us what we want or when we want it.

You don't have to be afraid.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

should I abandon this desire

If you are already married then I believe you should abandon the desire for younger/hotter/tighter.

If you are not married, then why would you abandon your principles?

pursue more attractive but less godly women.

This is a false dichotomy.

[–]macmeeler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was a statement made based on my current options, not some hasty generalization of attractive godly women being non-existent.

Thanks for the input man!

[–]HobbesTheBrave2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

My point is, I can't help but want a sexy girl. I guess my question is, should I abandon this desire like I do many of my other desires? Is it unbiblical? Solomon quotes about wanting a sexually attractive wife come to mind, but I am not sure it's enough to convince me that it's better for me to pursue more attractive but less godly women. Where is that balance?

If you can successfully mansplain to the hot, non-christian girl to become a sister, to become your devoted wife, why not?

I have found at best a 6/10 who is single and Christian (and over 20).

So wait a while longer, if you think you can find someone hotter. Girls turn 18 every year, don't they?

Are you're sure you're browsing for hot, christian girls at the right places? You know, how you find the good kind of nerd is found at bookstores and libraries. If you're in a shitty church, you're only going to find shitty christians. I hope you already know that you're not finding the best wives in the town's red-light districts.

Think, like how the bad kind of sports-guys are found at bars, and the good kind of sports-guys are found in the gym and the field. Some think this is a 'well, duh'-kind of thing, but they don't think about normal everyday things deeply enough. Just like you sort the wheat from the bullshit, you need to sort the devoutly religious from the sluttier, those who think that lip-service to the church gets them anywhere worthwhile. And if you're not the religiously observant, about books, sports, diet, dating, anything, I wouldn't expect you to get far in those subjects.

I'm dating a lot of girls at my University, and the 3-check axiom has proven itself consistently accurate

I have found at best a 6/10 who is single and Christian (and over 20).

Are you Hot, Single AND Christian, by girls' standards? Because Tens only get to date Tens, and if you're not a Ten, girls are wise to not date you. Who'd let a unattractive dude date a hot sister? Remember that presenting yourself well to her, and presenting yourself well to her family, that's two completely different ordeals. Which you have to do at the same time.

She's really into me, and she's awesome.

Are you something near 6/10? If yes, is there's something you could to differently so you'd improve to something more?

I think our subjective perceptions of beauty are a result of the Fall

Fall? How does the Fall have to do anything with men's attitude towards beauty? The greeks perfected the study of beauty, long before Paul ever went on the road to Damascus. They had developed their opinions on it, the same we have today. Good architecture, the buildings both they built way back when, and we build with today, it has the number phi, 1.619, everywhere, and so does the good man and the good woman. Look closely at a hot man and a hot woman, and you'll find it everywhere.

I guess my question is, should I abandon this desire like I do many of my other desires? Is it unbiblical?

Wrong questions to ask, I'd say. Too abstract. I understand that there's some feelings you have in these questions, feelings politeness and decorum might expect me to go into, but I'd ask blunter and terser and plainer questions, like whether women find you attractive, if they think you ought to be married to her, if men respect you enough to invite you.

[–]macmeeler[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Are you're sure you're browsing for hot, christian girls at the right places? You know, how you find the good kind of nerd is found at bookstores and libraries. If you're in a shitty church, you're only going to find shitty christians. I hope you already know that you're not finding the best wives in the town's red-light districts.

Definitely not. Thanks for helping me realize that I'm basically neglecting the obvious.

I go to a commute university in an impoverished city. It's a good university but a crappy town. I walk around campus and meet pretty girls a couple times a week. Have gotten every girl's number that I've met who wasn't taken. A couple instant dates, a few serious dates

Are you Hot, Single AND Christian, by girls' standards? Because Tens only get to date Tens, and if you're not a Ten, girls are wise to not date you. Who'd let a unattractive dude date a hot sister? Remember that presenting yourself well to her, and presenting yourself well to her family, that's two completely different ordeals. Which you have to do at the same time.

/u/Red-Curious tells me I'm attractive, that's all I need /s. I'm somewhere around an 8 I guess. Some girls probably think I'm a 7 or worse, some think I'm a 10. Tan, tall, 8-pack, well-groomed, cool style, the whole shebang. I'm not having a hard time attracting 8/9/10s, I just don't encounter any. I'm going to go to a nearby megachurch and play the field there instead of my campus from now on.

Fall? How does the Fall have to do anything with men's attitude towards beauty?

Like I said, it's a theory and definitely a rabbit hole. The fact that we see ugliness at all, and ugliness in something made in the image of God is very possibly a result of the Fall. Basically it seems to me that we don't hold a Biblical view of beauty anymore. We're attracted to certain physical traits and not others that some people are born with, no result of their own doing. The concept of ugliness is probably not something that exists in a perfect world (i.e. heaven)

[–]HobbesTheBrave0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The study of the soul and the study of geometry, geometry of our bodies, that’s two different subjects.

If you’re interested in the former, search for ‘The Art of Stoic Joy’ by William B. Irvine/Irwing.

[–]macmeeler[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Going to give it a read over Winter Break. Thanks Hobbes

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

The fact that we see ugliness at all, and ugliness in something made in the image of God is very possibly a result of the Fall. Basically it seems to me that we don't hold a Biblical view of beauty anymore.

This is an interesting theory, and something I hadn't thought about before. I'm inclined by my gut reaction to agree! But there are so many variables that I simply can't process it fully in the absence of Scripture on point :p I mean, there's the 2 Peter passage about "your beauty does not come from outward adornment, but from inner character" (paraphrasing), but I'd really have to keep thinking on this.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I tend to think that there was no ugliness, fatties, or land whales before the Fall and there would not have been. This theory is different than OP's in that it is that actual ugliness (rather than OP's theory that our perception of ugliness) is a consequence of sin.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That makes a lot of sense too. I'm inclined to agree that things like gluttony, self mutilation, and other uglifying things wouldn't exist. But does that mean there's no merit to the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Would everyone have the same taste or different tastes yet be able to appreciate the beauty outside our own tastes anyway?

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would think that everyone's tastes would be different, regardless of the fall. We wouldn't necessarily find girls we are not attracted to "ugly," we just would not have that "spark" of attraction.

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The fact that we see ugliness at all, and ugliness in something made in the image of God is very possibly a result of the Fall. Basically it seems to me that we don't hold a Biblical view of beauty anymore. We're attracted to certain physical traits and not others that some people are born with, no result of their own doing.

"Beauty" =/= make you hard. Don't fall for this simple trick.

BTW I know where this "theology" leads to. If they can get you to agree that you don't "hold a Biblical view of beauty", then they can get you to change your view to "hold a Biblical view of beauty". And this new "Biblical view of beauty" will no doubt be something that equalizes the playing field between the hot girls and the not-hot girls, and men will no doubt be pressured into adopting this "Biblical view" if he wants to be holy... thus confirming its Blue Pill origin.

A BP christian friend is marrying next month. He used to date really hot girls before going to church. He's about to marry a woman who's erm... lets just say I don't think he'll be able to get an erection on his wedding night. But no, none of these matter to him. He has "a Biblical view of beauty now!"

...Exaggerating? I'm not. This is exactly where this theory ultimately leads to.

there's the 2 Peter passage about "your beauty does not come from outward adornment, but from inner character"

Peter was talking about what women should and should not do, not... whatever idea is being pushed here. Feminists used to hate 1 Peter, until they found an "empowering" verse within it.

Ironically, not many churches today dare use this 1 Peter verse to request regulations on women's attire. I wonder why...

Again, "beauty" =/= attractive to men. God finds all women beautiful. The Eiffel Tower is beautiful too, but does it give you a boner?

As men we are all created to be be attracted to the same things. The Blue Pill world HATES this, and is doing everything to demonize and shame this male preference. Don't fall for the church version. /u/macmeeler

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree.

[–]dontbedenied0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I consider myself a Christian in the loosest sense, and am very, very slowly growing in my faith. Even though I'm not very active in my faith, my values are deeply rooted in Christianity and the older I get the more I am drawn to the scripture.

With that said, I was listening to a sermon recently and the pastor said if you are a Christian, never, ever marry a non-Christian. I couldn't agree more after years of banging my head against the wall in LTRs with non-Christians. Even if you just want to experiment with these girls or whatever, be careful, and don't confuse them as marriage material. "You can't turn a 'promiscuous woman' into a housewife" is 100% true, and don't think you are the exception.

You seem pretty religious to me, and perhaps you're from a pretty conservative background. I don't know what your sexual history is either. What I'm getting at is, if you don't have a lot of experience with hot, non-Christians, look the hell out. They can turn your world completely upside down.

[–]macmeeler[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was a hardcore atheist until I was called by Christ when I was 19. Lacked a religious upbringing and basically had only the Bible, God and my reason to lean on in order to do what growing I’ve been helped to do.

Interestingly enough, I dated a non-Christian earlier this year and it was exactly as you’ve forewarned- a living nightmare. I wrote about the subject here

Thank you for the wise words. I pray you continue on your journey with Christ and that He continues to bring grace into your life, and the peace which only He can bring, which surpasses all understanding.

[–]dontbedenied0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for your kind words. Best of luck to you, and trust your instincts.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you are a Christian, never, ever marry a non-Christian.

At least this is directly ORDERED in Scripture.

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.

Even though the order is clear, I am not sure if Paul had enough experience with women to get the nuance. The reality is a woman will change her religion like a crusted and well used pair of underwear to match whatever man she is trying to snag at the time. In practice it is easy for a Christian man to marry a 'nonbeliever' (as soon as she is baptized) :)

[–]dontbedenied1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

After watching Jordan Peterson's Bible lecture series, it's amazing to me how relevant scripture is today. People like to dismiss the Bible as antiquated and irrelevant today, but stuff like this (and many others) is more helpful than ever.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If Paul wrote that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then his experience with women wouldn't matter, would it? It would be what God wanted to say through Paul, which is what Scripture claims anyway.

As far as finding a TRUE Christian woman, you will know by her character, which will prove itself by her refusal to compromise her Biblical beliefs.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelEndorsed, MRP Mod0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Technology these days can help you widen your pool, as it were. Don't feel like you have to marry the six if she's the best you can do right now.

You do have to treat dating like a numbers game, and yes there are women who meet all your criteria listed out there. You just have to work hard to find them.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My point is, I can't help but want a sexy girl. I guess my question is, should I abandon this desire like I do many of my other desires?

Instead of basing your decision on YOUR desires, why not trust God to bring the girl HE wants you to be with into your life instead? He has a way of making these things work out in ways you never would have expected :)

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't pursue a woman unless you feel that spark! Call it what you will -- chemistry, whatever -- but it's an essential ingredient IMO. Note that a person doesn't have to be conventionally attractive in order for the spark to exist.

The flip side: "chemistry" doesn't take the place of vetting! You can feel that spark for a totally unsuitable person -- as others have pointed out, a nonbeliever, or even a married woman, etc. Use your heart and your head when selecting a life partner.

[–]Rivkariver0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When you say you want a sexy girl, do you mean like someone who everyone finds sexy, as a status thing, or do you mean one you are personally attracted to? Which matters more?

Attraction really matters, everyone else thinking your spouse is hot is less important. University is a weird time, but if you don't give up you can find a woman who fits what you need. Be open minded.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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