~ archived since 2018 ~

Open Letter to a Christian Incel

March 28, 2019
24 upvotes

To a brother,

The following is not intended to wound you carelessly, but as surgeon wounds a sick patient to carve away the cancer. Only by causing damage first can the healing begin.

Women don't dislike you because they are thots corrupted by modernity, they dislike you because you are unattractive. Your faith is solid, but your body isn't. Your prayers and sacrifice are a sweet fragrance to God, but it doesn't mask your body odor to women.

Reading that probably roused your obvious distaste for women. You find them shallow, vain, and unspiritual. Perhaps you are right, but you are mistaken nonetheless. You don't dislike women for being women, you dislike women because they aren’t men.

Read that again.

You will denounce transgenderism, rightly pointing out that God made men and women extremely different. Despite this,you become upset when women think and behave vastly differently than men do.

You would not get upset with a cat for behaving like a cat because you don't expect it to be otherwise. If you expected a cat to behave like a dog you would be understandably irritated.

"Why isn't this cat loyal?"

"Why isn't it grateful when I feed it?"

"How come it isn't excited when I come home?"

Because it's a cat, not a dog.

Like a man upset that his cat doesn't behave like a dog, you become upset when women don't behave as men do.

Your expectations of women do not align with their true nature. This is understandable. No one has taught you the true nature of women. Not only so, but society has actively lied to you about their nature. Unless you learn the true nature of women and learn to accept them as they are, you not only never enjoy women but you will be greatly susceptible to their manipulations.

What is the true nature of women? Women are hypergamous and will seek the attention of the man at the top of the totem pole, even if they are otherwise "committed" to another man. Women interpret the world through feelings and emotion, so much so that they often reinterpret the past based on their feelings in the present. Women are incapable of loving you the way you love them, in the same way that children are incapable of loving their parents the way a parent loves a child. The differences are many and the list goes on from here.

Knowing that women have conditional loyalty, emotional driven perspective, and child-like love, why would any man want a woman in his life?

Some don't. Given the proper context, that's okay. If a man is able to attract women but does not want one, that is his prerogative. If a man is unable to attract women but does not want one, that is weakness. If you are going to forsake women and go your own way, do it from a position of strength. The unattractive man who swears off women is as pitiful as the man who yells, "You can't fire me, I quit!" Don't be that man.

Many men, knowing the volatile and foreign nature of women, chose to pursue women, even to the point of marriage. They do this for many reasons, such as having children, but perhaps chief among them is because it is fun. Why do some men take unnecessary risks, such as skydiving or owning exotic dangerous pets? Because men are drawn to the thrill of danger.

Which man are you? The man who can get a woman but doesn't want one, or the man who wants a woman but can't attract one? The honest answer is the latter, and while you won't admit it out loud you know it to be true. We both know that if you aroused the attention a hot female peer and found her suddently into you, you would change your tune. So let's be honest, the issue isn't truly that you dislike women, it's that you dislike that women dislike you. That's perfectly reasonable. Join the club, we've all been there at some point.

So where do you go from here?

Learn the nature of women and learn to accept them as they are. Does acceptance mean tolerance? No. Disloyalty is still disloyalty, but knowing that women will trade upward, use this element of their nature and become the guy they desire to trade upward for. In similar fashion, each element of the female nature presents both danger and opportunity, if you know how to use it. Spend time in the manosphere learning. You will likely go through each stage of grief as you learn how deeply you have been lied to. That is normal. Embrace it and keep moving forward; you will be stronger for it.

You will begin to find yourself at odds with others in your congregation, likely respected members or even pastors or elders. You will wonder how they don't see what has become so obvious. Be gracious. They like you are deeply influenced by the culture. Pray for them. Talk with them. Don't go Rambo and call them to task, you have nothing to gain by being overzealous here.

Next, you need to practice interacting with women with their true nature in mind. Knowledge without action will not transform you. As you learn to apply what you've learned you will find yourself failing at times. That's part of the process. Eventually you will begin to experience success with women. Don't stop here, keep going. If you do, you will eventually be attracting women you used to think were entirely out of your league. You'll be tempted to settle here, but keep going. If you do, you eventually reach the point where women you otherwise thought were reasonable down-to-earth good girls are unabashedly throwing themselves at you. It will be exciting at first, then sickening. Nothing will sober you up on the nature of women quite like seeing otherwise respectable girls going out of their way to compel you to do all sorts of unspeakable things to them. If you settle before this point you will think you found a unicorn, a woman who "would never even think to do something like that" in a million years, only to find yourself flabbergasted by her trangressive behavior later if she acts on these suppressed impulses. But now you've begun to see the true nature of women and are ready to make an informed decision of whether or not you want one in your life for the long haul.

Regardless of what you decide, you will be respected for it as you decided from a position of abundance and opportunity, not scarcity.

In love,

OZ

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Post Information
Title Open Letter to a Christian Incel
Author OsmiumZulu
Upvotes 24
Comments 37
Date March 28, 2019 7:43 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RPChristians
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/open-letter-to-a-christian-incel.301364
https://theredarchive.com/post/301364
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/b6fwxq/open_letter_to_a_christian_incel/
Comments

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This seems like a good post to ask a general question in relation to TRP and the faith.

How does a Christian guy interact with women?

I’m in a tough spot here, do we go out and interact with women in general (ie day or night game). Or do we sit back and only try and date in the Church with the hope of marriage?

My question is how do Christian men interact in the dating market?

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How does a Christian guy interact with women?

As people who can help you fulfill your mission.

I’m in a tough spot here, do we go out and interact with women in general (ie day or night game). Or do we sit back and only try and date in the Church with the hope of marriage?

This is still coming from a blue pill mentality. You have a desire to meet a wonderful girl and get married and have kids with a nice house and cozy Christmas mornings in front of a tree.

The red pill isn't about giving you strategies to meet your blue pill fantasies. You have to kill those fantasies. If they happen, great. But you can't be blue, sprinkle some red on your life, and hope that works.

To that end, the whole "hope of marriage" and the insistence on pursuing "day or night game" or "try and date in the Church" stuff just makes no sense. Why would you TRY to do that in the first place? The only rational conclusion is that you are still clinging to some ideal of marriage as a primary pursuit in your life. This comes from culture, my friend, not the Bible.

My question is how do Christian men interact in the dating market?

By not interacting in the dating market. Dating is woman-focused. You go to a restaurant, all your attention is on her. You go to a movie, it's just the two of you. You play putt-putt, everyone else gets ignored. Traditional dating exists to spur on romantic feels. The secular RP world, which only pursues sexuality, has concluded that the best thing to do is to fuel those feels to get sex. It's an effective strategy.

But if you have a priority of waiting until marriage to have sex, the focus entirely changes. Female emotions are fickle, so the emotional investment you get from her on the first date won't remain two weeks later, much less two years later - or however long before you're married. Result? Every time you date a woman without the intent of having sex at the end of the night, you're fueling her feels without getting anything in return. So, while this works great for the secular world, who does intend to bang her before the night is out, dating is quite different for the Christian because you can't cash-in on those feels you're fostering, making dating almost exclusively a form of female-worship.

Now, some guys will say that they just enjoy the company of women too - that they get feels from it also, and therefore it's worth it. Go for it. You do you. Just be cautious that 99% of the time those guys aren't getting the feels because they genuinely enjoy her company (though they certainly think that's what it is). They get their feels because they enjoy the validation of knowing that an attractive woman enjoys their company. This validation-seeking is extremely counter-productive and will ultimately kill her attraction to you in time.


Lastly, some men will go into the dating world thinking, "I want to have sex eventually, which means I have to get married, which means I have to date around to find a wife." This is their big excuse for saying that it's perfectly appropriate for Christian men to actively seek dating relationships.

I'm not buying it. First, it falsely assumes that sexuality in marriage will live up to your expectations. You cannot be outcome independent in this type of a situation. What if the girl you marry decides that, no matter how much red you sprinkle into your life, she's just not interested in sex? Sure, it's sinful rebellion. But it happens. You can't control that. And now you've either just committed your life to someone who will be a constant disappointment to the reason you married her in the first place, or she's going to end up leaving with half your stuff.

Second, most men who make this claim haven't even started making their first disciple yet. They haven't won anyone to Jesus, and they're not individually discipling any new believers into spiritual maturity. So, if you're pursuing dating before you're pursuing the great commission, what does that say about your true priorities?

Third, even if men do have their priorities in order, by making an intentional pursuit of dating a second, third, fourth, or whatever priority - as long as it remains an intentional pursuit, you are making it hard for a woman to follow you. If you are chasing after her, she can't be following behind you. The only way that works is when you look like a dog spinning in circles chasing its own tail. That's lunacy.

Fourth, the goal of "I want to have sex someday" inherently assumes that sexuality has some power over you, rather than you being master over it. Deny yourself and take up your cross. Don't tell God, "I'll follow you, but only if I get to have sex someday too." If you're doing what God wants you doing, and God wants you to have sex, then you're going to end up married. That's why I say in my posts that even if a man specifically avoids looking for a wife, as long as he remains dutiful to God by being a godly man who cares for his body, leads God's people well, efficiently runs his home, etc. - 99.9% of these guys are going to end up getting married anyway, even without looking. Why? Because so many girls are going to want them that they're going to end up in a compromising situation where they eventually say, "We're going to need to get married before we go any further."

These guys aren't trying to find a wife. Potential wives are trying to find them - and they will chase such a man to the ends of the earth if they have to. And these women find out about those men because those men are making disciples through a vision that includes the need for women to help him. The more he invites along, the more women are exposed to him, the more are attracted and will try to tempt him, which is when marriage becomes a viable option.

This is all on the sidebar too: How to Find the Girl You Can't Keep Yourself From Banging.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelEndorsed, MRP Mod1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

By not interacting in the dating market. Dating is woman-focused. You go to a restaurant, all your attention is on her. You go to a movie, it's just the two of you. You play putt-putt, everyone else gets ignored. Traditional dating exists to spur on romantic feels. The secular RP world, which only pursues sexuality, has concluded that the best thing to do is to fuel those feels to get sex. It's an effective strategy.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, RC. For Christians as well as non-Christians, you still have to interact in the dating market, aka play the game, as I've mentioned before. Sure, red pill can give you the real rules of the game, as well as strategies on how to "win", but then again, winning looks different to different people. Someone could use the Mystery Method to find a Christian wife, while Christians could use "bible study" to get laid over and over.

Dating is only women focused if you allow it to be.

I don't think not being aware of the dating market and/or not "playing the game", as it were, is a good strategy. The real question is, what are your goals, your outcomes... and how will you play the game to get there.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would point you to the "FOR SINGLES" section on the Sidebar, there's many good posts there that address this question from several different angles, so you will get a better overview and understanding by reading all of them.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How does a Christian guy interact with women?

If she is an eligible woman (old enough, unmarried, etc) you interact with them largely the same way a secular man would, but with boundaries as to how sexual you will be with them. Tease them, escalate attraction using some kino, pull / push, the list goes on. Now, if she is married or old enough to pursue, then we treat them as sisters or mothers etc.

I’m in a tough spot here, do we go out and interact with women in general (ie day or night game). Or do we sit back and only try and date in the Church with the hope of marriage?

You'll get mixed opinion here, but I met my wife day gaming. She grew up going to church but wasn't going to church at the time, I invited her along and the rest is history. Game away, night or day, in or out of church, and cultivate abundance. Just set and enforce firm boundaries. You may be surprised who you meet.

My question is how do Christian men interact in the dating market?

Read the sidebar.

[–]OrlandoTheAxe2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Cool post! Any hole RPC can poke in incel ideology is another way for truth to shine in and reach us bottom tier dudes.

Would a post outlining and disproving the incel worldview (aka "The Blackpill") add value to the subreddit? I couldn't disprove, since I'm an incel, but I could make a somewhat concise post outlining the Blackpill, and let you guys go to town on it.

I think it would be cool if we could eventually get something for incels on the sidebar.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's what this post aims to do overall.

If you can specify some core points of the black pill we can take a look about addressing those specifically though in another post.

[–]OrlandoTheAxe1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I see /u/OsmiumZulu already addressed genetic determinism in this post. That's really the key to this whole worldview, but there's more we can talk about.

Even if an truecel (an incel with real genetic limitations) does decide to play with the cards he has been dealt, there's still the issue of a competitive sexual marketplace that's nearly impossible for low value guys to succeed in. While the hypothetical truecel is spending years improving his physique, women are free to choose from a huge supply of genetically-gifted males who are ready right now. Social media has created a market where thousands of attractive guys are just a click away, and the demand for women is so high that about 80% of girls are sleeping with the top 20% of men. Guys in the bottom 30% - 50% don't have a chance in the face of unrestrained hypergamy.

The problem gets worse are you age. Working out won't stop your hairline from receding, and it doesn't address the ever dwindling supply of eligible females. Once you're out of college, the race against time is even worse. Incels want genuine love and attraction, not settling and betabux.

I'll leave my personal journey out to make this applicable to more incels. However, I will say that my hope stems from RPC's frequent discussion of making your God-given mission the #1 thing. Following God is the only path towards true joy, and if my mission doesn't involve having a wife and children, then so be it.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You've got to approach it as a Kobayashi Maru situation. Meaning, if you can't win in the current competitive sexual marketplace by playing the game (because you lack attractiveness), then you have to approach it differently to create an outcome where you CAN win.

So instead of going on Tinder for instance, you can day game. If that doesn't work you can find a nice girl in church. Or ask a friend to set you up with a date. Maybe move to an area where your particular characteristics are more sought after. Maybe a different country where you're more desirable - for instance, I'm a muscular white guy who gets flirted with by Filipinas all the time, I would do very well in the Philippines. You could also lower your standards - if you have no chances with 6's and 7's, then shoot for 5's and 6's. And there are plenty of "less genetically gifted" people in happy marriages, so as a last resort one could always seek some of them out and ask how they succeeded.

Last, and most important, there's the power of prayer. Pray for God to bless you with what you want. Too many Christians serve God faithfully in the majority of their lives and yet neglect to ask Him / wait on Him when it comes to a wife or husband. God can do what we cannot. Often we have not because we ask not. There's unlimited ways to find a good spouse, but most incels have given up or see it as a hopeless venture, which is why they fail.

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[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (20 children) | Copy Link

By stopping the beliefs and behaviors that caused them to be incel to begin with and becoming attractive.

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[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

We are all dealt different hands at birth, but there are many ways to play the cards.

Is the man born a 4 capable of landing 9s and 10s? Maybe not, but that doesn't mean he can't improve himself to land 6s, 7s, and 8s.

Having seen some pretty radical transformations and applications of game, I am a perpetual optimist in men's ability to better themselves in terms of attractiveness.

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[–]lololasaurusEndorsed | 37M | Married 8 Yrs3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Be attractive. Don't be unattractive.

Lift. Women don't reject a put together jacked guy on sight. He might open his mouth and give her cause to do so, I'm which case that's the next thing to work on, but women work pretty hard to put themselves near jacked guys.

[–]capodonca1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Which of these guys 1 or 2 is rejected more frecuently on sight? Which one is over compensating something?

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Both look decently built, however #2 has put more effort into maximizing his SMV by developing facial hair and a hairstyle that works well with his God-given appearance. #1 would do well to consider a different (shorter & neater) hairstyle, and some facial hair would be a plus as well since he has somewhat of a youthful, boyish face. The key here is neat and sharp, and that would take some experimentation to find what actually works on him.

Part of the difference is also lighting - the first guy took a pic in the gym and there are shadows on his face that don't optimize his facial features, while the second guy has good lighting. That makes a huge difference in a photo.

To answer your question, I can't see why either would be rejected on sight. And #2 is definitely showing off - whether that's overcompensation I can't really judge. It all depends on personal interaction with others, as OZ's post indicates. Many times there are subconscious cues or small, noticeable behaviors that affect personal interactions in a negative way.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Showing off isn't over-compensation. It's attractive.

I completely agree with your assessment. But some guys legit can't grow facial hair (I'm one of them). The biggest improvement guy 1 could make is dressing better. Even for the gym, form fitting clothes over a sleeve-rolled t-shirt would do him well.

But as I wrote in another comment on this thread, neither of them has to be rejected on sight if they have the proper frame.

Rejection on sight is usually a guy stabbing himself in the foot based on what he thinks others must be thinking of them. His failure to continue (or even start!) the conversation only creates or affirms those beliefs he feared they had about him, whereas maintaining frame and learning social tact and conversational skills will actively change first impressions.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Rejection on sight is a simple fix; it's not easy, but it's not complicated.

Being rejected on sight is typically a matter of exhibiting some sort of anti-social body language or behavior. It can be something obvious and readily observed, such as poor posture, awkwardly dressed, erratic movement, picking your nose, etc. or it could be something more subtle such as facial expressions, hand gestures, odor, etc.

In rare cases bodily irregularities can be the cause, such as being paraplegic, cleft lip, missing teeth, etc. These are more complicated, and may require surgical intervention, but not something that cannot be overcome. Even in these extreme cases, the reason for rejection on sight is more likely because of the behavioral abnormalities that arise from self consciousness than because of the irregularity itself.

Is rejection on sight a problem you face?

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[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Curious, have you ever had someone record you in a social setting? If not, consider trying it and you will likely be able to spot the ways that you behaved unnaturally.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was going to suggest this as well. Watching your interaction on a video recorded by someone else can give unique insight to the interaction that is difficult to perceive otherwise.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In addition to what /u/OsmiumZulu said, rejection on sight is usually the product of a failed fitness test. "Sorry, you're too ugly for me" is probably your worst nightmare to hear. Most guys will shirk away when they hear that. This is a weak frame.

The attractive guy says, "Too ugly for you? I'm too ugly for Hellen Keller. But I'm guessing you like getting a little ugly every now and then."

If you're really not all that ugly, she'll laugh and be intrigued. If she still isn't interested and is bratty, she may follow-up, "No, seriously. Go away. I'm not interested." To which you respond, "You misspelled interesting ... which is weird because you were talking instead of typing. Either way, I'm interesting enough for both of us."

See how the game works? THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REJECTION ON SIGHT. It doesn't exist. There are only guys who can't maintain a conversation in the face of rejection, which is a reflection of his need for improved frame and conversational skill.

[–]lololasaurusEndorsed | 37M | Married 8 Yrs2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Some folks are naturals.

Others are like me. Before the last year I've never been under 210lbs since I was 13. Maxed at 265 in maybe 2008, have hovered around 240-245 most of my adult life. A captain who didn't bother, no stamina, no physicality, when people talked about calorie counting or working out I'd laugh at what meatheads they were. I fancied myself some kind of intellectual and while that sort of thing has always come easy to me, it's so cringy now.

Well, then my wife is blatantly planning to leave me, and I find MRP back in November 2017, and I start working out and get a gym membership, start lifting, start trying to at least get out of my wife's frame. At this point I've never lifted in my life before, so the noob gains are enormous. Get up to 450DL, 370ish SQ, 210BP, 130OHP over the next year, drop to 189.8 lbs as of yesterday... I have a ways to go but I'm seeing the very beginning of abs, which I thought was a scientific impossibility lol

Up every morning at 430am to pray, then with my boys at 5am to work out together doing bodyweight stuff. Then we go jogging together which I also thought was pretty much scientifically impossible back then too. Jiu jitsu twice a week has built confidence that has changed a great deal for me. And then there's lifting.

Now random men approach me at work and ask me what I'm doing to lose so much weight and get jacked.

But perhaps most dangerous to my soul for a variety of reasons, since my wife is still in rebellion to God and has recently once again announced that she's divorcing me, is the fact that now beautiful women that didn't even notice my existence before strike up conversations with me or otherwise put themselves near me. It's just blatant. When my wife leaves, although I do intend to get my stuff together for at least a year before I consider another relationship because I'm still so messed up mentally after years of manipulation from my wife, I know that abundance will not be a real problem for me. I am 38, but I look 10 years younger - my 3 month older wife noticed this the other day actually herself and commented on it. For me, I'm jacked, but I have a long way to go to be where I want. I have a solid job and a burgeoning side business. I'm more involved with our kids than she is.

The red pill truths probably saved my life. I went from all kinds of cringy unattractive behavior, crying in front of my wife that she was acting this way, whining that she wouldn't let me lead, allowing her to convince me to listen to her words when her actions were disrespectful and disloyal, to mostly the opposite, although I think I killed her respect for me permanently after so many years as a weak beta fat man.

Yes, you can change yourself to be more attractive.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is an encouragement to read. Your background mirrors mine in so many ways, though my wife is only 1 1/2 months older than me ;)

I'd love to chat some more about why she's still contemplating leaving - whether you want to do that here or privately, or not at all, is up to you.

[–]lololasaurusEndorsed | 37M | Married 8 Yrs0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm definitely open to speaking privately about it, if you'd like.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cool. Phone, reddit chat, or through DMs?

[–]lololasaurusEndorsed | 37M | Married 8 Yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I sent you a message.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelEndorsed, MRP Mod0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good luck man. Let us know how it all goes down.

I do wonder how predictive hypergamy is in your situation, if she is attempting to "branch swing" or has already done so. Regardless, you are better prepared in a number of ways, which is a good thing.

[–]lololasaurusEndorsed | 37M | Married 8 Yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've wondered that too. It's on my daily prayer list that if she is it would be made plain so I can act accordingly. Other than that if she cheats she cheats, it's not like she's making herself a huge prize to lose right now with the raging feminism, the manipulation and threats, the constant abuse card playing, etc.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're confusing the red pill and the black pill.

You're only born with your looks and your sin. Virtually everything else is learned behavior. Even your looks are a product of your choices - how much you exercise, diet, etc. The aspects of your looks that you're born with are, in most cases, not things that women actually care about - they're only the things women say they care about, like a man's eyes or his cheek bones. In reality, if you've got a 6-pack with bulging biceps, etc. and are also mindful of your facial hair grooming, head hair styling, the clothes you wear, etc. these are going to do more to attract a woman than your facial features. Even an ugly face won't disqualify a man from top-tier women if the other aspects of his SMV are on point. As I often say, looks make the game easier, but in the absence of clear deformities, even an inherently unattractive man can get the same quality of women as the one born with natural good looks.

As for sin, this is something Jesus can change.

In short, a man's propensity to attract women is certainly NOT something he's innately born with. The innate things he's born with simply determine how much work he's going to have to do in other areas of his life to make up for those shortcomings, if there are any shortcomings at all. Some guys are overly self-conscious about themselves without justification.

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[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Specifically, how would one tell if a woman’s attracted to your body vs money vs game

What does it matter? They're all components of attraction. If you have money, she'll be attracted to it. If you have a 6-pack, she'll be attracted to it. If you have charm, she'll be attracted to it. It's all of the above, not one or the other.

Some guys have this false impression, as I'm sure /u/OsmiumZulu would agree, that women should be attracted to you for a specific, right reason. "She should love me for my ___, not for my money/social status/body/whatever." Get that notion out of your head. That's trying to change women. You can't change them. Accept the fact that they're going to be attracted to you in different ways from how you want to be attractive to them.

How can a man stay on track with his faith while “seemingly” everyone around him is either lying/still BP

By being mission-minded. That's how you get to the top of the totem pole in the first place. Secular men make sexuality their mission. Ours is disciple-making. As long as your mission is something you're actually living out and succeeding at, you're making an impact that is attractive and precludes her from being pedestalized in your mind, which is half the battle. If there's no pedestalization, there's not much room for giving way to seduction - she may want you so bad that she'll tempt you with everything she has, but if you've got an iron-clad frame you won't have any problem holding course on your mission, which will only increase her desire for you. OZ has also written about this in his posts on the sidebar for singles.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Love the post, especially the unique perspective. I hope the guy you're writing to is a real person and not a general concept.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks.

"He" is actually two different people who share a very similar outlook. Enough so that it sparked the idea of writing it as an open letter.

[–]VicGeorge20180 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's not forget in the equation that there are men who have very unrealistic expectations when it comes to the women they want to fall in love with, marry, and even possibly go to bed with. They're shooting for the hottest and most attractive women, and if those men happen to be older, then usually the ones that are below the age of menopause and also in the rarest of cases virgins so that they could father children with them. If those women don't meet those expectations, then they won't consider them at all. So you can blame women for "being hypergamous in nature" all you want, but men ARE NOT ENTIRELY INNOCENT in the whole matter.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s like shopping to buy a house without having enough saved for a down payment, then getting pissed that no one wants to sell you their house; people rightfully expect value for value in an exchange and many men don’t bring enough value to the table to interest the kind of women they want.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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