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Should Christians Care About Physical Attractiveness?

December 15, 2017
10 upvotes

In a recent post u/macmeeler asked an interesting question: how much (should you) value physical attraction in dating? This is a great question and I wanted to post a full response. This is my opinion, so take it or leave it as you will.

Summary

Physical attractiveness in a potential spouse is extremely important for Christians, perhaps more so than for non-Christians

Body

Imagine you moved to a country and were going to buy your first house there. As you begin the process you are shocked to discover that you were only allowed to buy one house in your entire life, and that selling it or buying another would lead to a life long prison sentence. How picky would you be in that situation?

Though it is a poor analogy, it illustrates a serious point: Unlike first time home-owners who often buy a “starter” house, Christians who enter marriage don’t get do-overs. Barring a few narrow circumstances laid out by in scripture (which vary somewhat depending on who you ask), divorce simply isn’t a faithful option for the Christian. This should make us pause before rushing into a lifelong permanent commitment.

It gets worse. In the fictitious permanent home ownership scenario above, you can at least redecorate or remodel however you please. Not so with spouses. Unlike a house, a spouse has a will of their own and cannot so easily be renovated or reshaped. In many cases, unless you have a highly pliable spouse, who you marry is who you get.

Simply put: You cannot go into a marriage resting your hope that certain attributes in your spouse will change favorably. You have to decide on what is, not what may be.

Ever person has preferences in attributes in a spouse, and everyone will rank or weigh those attributes differently. For some, orientation towards family life or the desire to be a stay at home mother are highly desirable attribute in a potential wife. For such a person, settling on this issue and marrying someone who does not match this is likely to be utter foolishness. Certainly, no person is perfect. We are talking about two sinners pairing together after all; at some point everyone who marries settles. We all have a cross to bear, but in this area we do get some input on how much that cross weighs.

I knew enough about myself when I was dating to know that I place an inordinate premium on physical attractiveness and overall sexuality. I also knew how competitive I was. Healthy or not, I was aware that if I did not find a top tier wife in terms of looks, I would have always wondering “what if?” and questioning my decision. To bring back the house buying scenario, why settle for a shack when you know that with some effort you could secure the funds for a mansion?

Is this just vanity? Somewhat. But consider this: much of our outward appearance signals our inward self. This is what I mean:

Being overweight signals:

  • Poor health and potential risks of expensive complications
  • Doesn’t value healthy living
  • Will struggle keeping up with me in my hobbies
  • Likely to pass on unhealthy genetics to my kids
  • More likely to die young from preventable causes
  • Lacks discipline in eating, exercise, or both
  • Laziness, lack of concern for the value good health brings to a relationship

Ugly clothing / makeup signals:

  • Unaware of social dynamics or conventions
  • Lack of confidence
  • Over-developed sense of shame; may indicate frigidity in the bedroom
  • Laziness, lack of concern for the value good aesthetics brings to a relationship

Poor hygiene

  • Laziness, lack of concern for grossing the crap out of people around them
  • Being gross and horrible in general (seriously, how hard is it to shower daily and brush your freaking teeth??)

You get the point. Being basically healthy and attractive has never been easier in the history of humanity, so why not expect that someone you are going to PLEDGE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE TO avails themselves of the opportunity? These outward attributes reveal inward realities that I care little for. Seriously, gym memberships are CHEAP. Learning how to eat and workout more effectively than 80% of the population takes like 30 minutes of googling and reading. Makeup, dental work, clothes, etc have never been cheaper or more accessible. The kind of woman who has no desire or drive to take advantage of the situation and put in even a modicum of effort is not the kind of woman I find myself interested in.

Am I being ridiculous? I don’t think so. Seriously, a woman (or man) who wants to marry, but doesn’t take steps to improve their physical attractiveness is saying this:

“Uhm, yeah, so, despite it being easier and cheaper to be fit, well dressed, groomed, and generally attractive than just about ever before, I don’t really want to bother with it. In fact, even though there are entire industries, YouTube series, even charities, designed with the express purpose to make the process of being attractive as easy as possible, it’s just too much for me. So here’s what I’m offering: pledge yourself, for your ENTIRE LIFE, to me to be your sole sexual outlet forever, forsaking all others no matter how attractive or motivated sexually they may be. Oh and this still applies even if you get jacked and model tier hot. In fact, I hope you do because that would be good for me because I know you can’t ethically justify leaving me because you want to be faithful to Christ. How does that sound?”

Screw that deal. Talk about not loving your neighbor.

Being unattractive and trying to find an attractive spouse is not only selfish and short-sighted, it’s a violation of the Golden Rule: “treat others as you would have them treat you.”

I plan to be fit, healthy, well dressed and groomed, and sexually vibrant. I like presenting that as a gift to my wife. Knowing this, I found a wife who would to the same in turn.

Bottom Line

So is sexual, physical, attractiveness important for Christians? Unless you really don’t place a high premium on it as most guys do: yes it is.

Now a caveat: people age, disfigurement happens, and life doesn’t always turn out as expected. That said, there is a world of difference ethically speaking between someone who is unattractive because of a maiming accident and someone who eats themselves to death. Someone who strives to maintain their attractiveness as they age, is not the same as someone who “gains some baby weight” and somehow never lost it decades later. Again, it’s about what externals reveal about internal character. I get that my wife and I are going to age. I am also highly confident that we will be fit and look good for our age.

Physical attractiveness is important and it’s okay to discriminate against spousal candidates based on it. Who knows, maybe some of the lazy folks in the congregation would get motivated if the lie of “looks don’t matter” wasn’t so pervasive.

Or maybe I’m just an unsanctified jerk.

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Post Information
Title Should Christians Care About Physical Attractiveness?
Author OsmiumZulu
Upvotes 10
Comments 31
Date December 15, 2017 9:12 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RPChristians
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/should-christians-care-about-physical.302096
https://theredarchive.com/post/302096
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/7k2nvo/should_christians_care_about_physical/
Comments

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post, but the fact you even need to write such a post speaks a lot about the times we live in.

Like, how hard can it be? This is YOUR marriage, you can only have one wife. So go for whatever the heck you want, and be responsible for your choice. How hard is this?

But noo, the World just has to complicate things...

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right?

Imagine you lived in a place where you could only get internet service from a single provider, no other options exist without you violating the law and stealing service from others.

Now imagine that ISP did all sorts of things for you (offered to repair your broken PC, upgrade your router, do your taxes, etc) but wouldn’t provide you with an internet connection. Or maybe just an internet connection for about an hour every other week, usually right as you are wanting to go to sleep. You talk to them about it and they feel that they are keeping up their end of the agreement you signed with them. After all, you aren’t getting NO internet access right?

We’d rightly view that as a failure, especially since all The auxiliary services are easily replaced or done yourself without breaking the agreement.

[–]Kiddynomite776 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I’ve never heard a preacher approach this topic...they won’t get even close out of fear of offending women (but will quickly tell men to “step up” in areas). I’ve also noticed that the SMV of the preacher and his wife are usually pretty close as the wife, regardless of her age, keeps up her appearance as a form of mate guarding and other reasons. The larger the church, the more the wife stays on her game from what I’ve seen. She knows that many of the women, married and single, would love to take her place. Therefore, it’s easy for the pastors to say, “You should love past looks”, because they don’t have to, at least to the same degree.

Overall, I think it’s easier to keep score if we just equate a woman’s physical appearance, which is of utmost importance to a man, with his earning potential, as that’s of utmost importance to the woman. But who says, “You should love him when he doesn’t work and understand that at some point, he just needs to relax and you need to understand that some bills won’t get paid...”? That would never be said as the provider expectation is on us regardless (and rightfully so as God established work in the Garden and that theme is carried throughout scripture). God also gives us numerous examples of the impact of a beautiful woman on a man throughout scripture as well (Sarah, Rachel, Leah’s lack of, Proverbs).

So if I’m teaching my daughters how important it is to marry a man with a great work ethic (something she’s likely to do naturally via hypergamy), I agree with OP and I’m teaching my sons the importance of marrying a woman they find physically attractive, not one that is JUST “nice” and a Christian. That’s also their natural direction that The Church and its ever increasing femininity is trying to preach out of them.

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

with his earning potential, as that’s of utmost importance to the woman.

I think Confidence/Charm, or "Game" as TRP calls it, is of more importance to woman. Woman might marry a man for his earning potential (AF/BB) but that doesn't mean it gives them the tingles.

Besides, the recent MeToo nonsense should have all but dispel the myth that money alone gives women tingles.

EDIT:

I’ve never heard a preacher approach this topic...they won’t get even close out of fear of offending women

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[–]Kiddynomite772 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No doubt, I certainly don’t disagree on what gives them tingles, but I was speaking in terms of a good way to explain this concept in a way most church folks could understand without getting butthurt and immediately thinking you’re shallow.

You’ve nailed it in why many won’t even approach such a topic...

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was speaking in terms of a good way to explain this concept in a way most church folks could understand without getting butthurt

Well then you basically just called women golddiggers. They'll just screech even louder.

You can't just red pill anyone lol. They have to be willing to "see just how deep the rabbit hole goes", so to speak.

[–]HobbesTheBrave0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

What morons these preachers must be. Attractive men with attractive wives tithe much more.

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

actually, every market knows that women above 30 are the most willing to part with their money. Housewives above 30 with rich husbands are jackpot.

[–]HobbesTheBrave1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am fully aware of that. But unmasculine churches repel boys from becoming devoutly observant. And eventually those single-ish women grow old. So if preachers want something else other than a quick buck, if they want to grow the church they have to attract men too. Men who have wives or get wives, wives who help their husbands part with their money.

[–]HobbesTheBrave1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ve never heard a preacher approach this topic...they won’t get even close out of fear of offending women (but will quickly tell men to “step up” in areas).

A complete indifference towards those offended women works excellently, in my opinion. I doubt anyone else like their misplaced indignation, their pride. Show them your strong frame, and they'll stop talking that nonsense.

It's walking on eggshells, talking about beauty. Remember that some are plainly born with better looks. Then there's a question of humility, to admit that 'Yes, I have to eat better and I have to become more active'.

I've noticed, that the best way to 'preach for physical appearance', it is to go to the gym, groom your self religiously, eat well. So you look attractive. Then you talk primarily with those who do it too. And the work-ethic you need to do it well, it ends up spreading itself to the other areas of your life. Spend your time with those willing to humble themselves in sports and grooming.

[–]Chinchilla_the_Hun5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Much like you alluded to, attractiveness is often an outward sign of an inner reality. As beings with a spiritual component to our existence, we are keenly aware of the Three Transcendentals (Truth, Goodness, and Beauty) and how they relate to each other. Truth is good and goodness is beautiful, therefore we recognize beauty as a sign of truth (B>G>T) and are drawn to it.

However, this concept can also be perverted in the same way Satan tempts with lies disguised as truth. Make-up, cosmetic surgery/implants, steroids are all "lies" of varying degrees that people employ in an attempt to indicate something that's otherwise a beautiful and/or good truth. (The same principle of falsehood extends out to the realm of inanimate objects like artificial flavoring in food or wood veneers.)

With all that being said, as Christians, we are exhorted love and serve truth directly. To look past the surface-level beauty and "apparent goods" presented by others, and to love the truth of them as fellow human beings and brothers/sisters in Christ. There's nothing wrong with wanting an attractive mate and what we "get" out of a relationship with them is worth enjoying without great scruples. But beauty fades and goodness is inconsistent, so to value someone for only what they possess in those two aspects is setting yourself up for disappointment.

(I highly encourage the following texts for further insights on the topic: Love and Responsibility and The Theology of the Body)

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

attractiveness is often an outward sign of an inner reality. As beings with a spiritual component to our existence, we are keenly aware of the Three Transcendentals (Truth, Goodness, and Beauty) and how they relate to each other. Truth is good and goodness is beautiful, therefore we recognize beauty as a sign of truth (B>G>T) and are drawn to it.

My wife was smoking hot when we first got married 13 years ago. She was always dressed well, and stayed fit. Today, however, she still dresses ok when she leaves the house for work, but when she comes home, she looks like $h1t. She wears her old sweats, puts her hair up and says she wants to be comfortable.

She doesn't care to be attractive at home, which is most of the time when I see her. I've told her that I'd like to see her dress better at home. She gets all self righteous and says that she doesn't dictate how I should dress at home. This indifference toward being attractive and being attracted to me is what turned me to TRP and MRP.

I have straight up told her she looks terrible and unattractive when she dresses lazy. She doesn't care. What can be done? I make an effort to dress better at home. I understand I do it for me and for my own self worth, not for a covert contract. But I would appreciate her caring more about me to try to attract me. She has no idea how many IOIs I get outside. If she only knew how threatened her marriage is. Is her indifference to this some spiritual or moral problem? Is it truly a lack of love and selfish pride?

[–]Chinchilla_the_Hun0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

She wears her old sweats, puts her hair up and says she wants to be comfortable.

Congratulations, you're married to a human being. If up-hair and sweats constitutes looking like excrement, then two things: 1) it's your fault for letting her get to such a low standard and 2) you're scale for standards needs to be calibrated in regards to her relation to you on that 1,000ft rope that's not yet taught, rambo.

She doesn't care to be attractive at home, which is most of the time when I see her. I've told her that I'd like to see her dress better at home. She gets all self righteous and says that she doesn't dictate how I should dress at home.

The reason she's not counting down until you're on your way home so she can slip into her new French maid getup and jump your bones is because you're not worth it yet. Dude, you're only a few months into your journey. Possibly early enough for you to notice newb gains, but definitely not for those gains to translate into a positive reaction from your wife after (I'm guessing) a decade of BP "leadership".

I have straight up told her she looks terrible and unattractive when she dresses lazy. She doesn't care. What can be done?

Maybe you should try belittling her more. Doesn't sound like you had enough disdain the first time around.

I make an effort to dress better at home. I understand I do it for me and for my own self worth, not for a covert contract.

Keep telling yourself that.

But I would appreciate her caring more about me to try to attract me.

Riiiiiight. Absolutely no covert contracts here.

She has no idea how many IOIs I get outside. If she only knew how threatened her marriage is.

I never knew a fragile ego this big could fit inside a wife's frame. Seriously, check this word count from your post without my quote: "she" = 15, "her" = 9, "I" & "me" = 13 combined. You're not RPing for yourself...you're doing it for her, Cpt. Covert Contract.

Is her indifference to this some spiritual or moral problem?

Possibly, but more likely the result of what you let fester for years. If it's any one's problem, it's yours.

Is it truly a lack of love and selfish pride?

We all fall short of perfection and pride is the root. You've got some serious work to do on yourself.

[–]GBP4tendies-4 points-3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely complicated. I just ended a relationship with the best girl I've ever dated in my life. She just didn't do it for me physically. She was kind of cute but I'm used to dating hot girls. But it was a very difficult decision. She's the most interesting, smartest, well-traveled, well-spoken, sweetest, and likeable girl I've ever dated. No joke, all that is true.

But I feel like it has to be this way because I know how much physical attraction is important to me. I just didn't feel it was right to do that to her. But she is undoubtedly going to be an excellent Christian wife and mother someday. That is not easy to walk away from. Every man has to weigh his own priorities. So I think the OP was looking for guidance in that. Honestly I'm still contemplating whether or not I made the right decision. It was extremely difficult at first but I feel like I'm almost already over it. So I guess that's my answer.

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let me be the first to tell you that you did the right thing. You freed yourself up to find someone to whom you're strongly attracted and freed HER up to find a man who adores her just the way she is! You do not want to marry a person you're only "Meh" about. Find someone you adore, who adores you in return -- life is just better that way.

[–]Music-Is-The-Answer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When you ended the relationship did you tell her it was because she wasn't doing it for you physically?

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A loving doe, a graceful deer - may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

Proverbs 5:19

This verse clearly speaks of physical attraction.

This article has a pretty good perspective on it as well. God created us to be attracted to the opposite sex, and I can't imagine being happily married to a woman who I was not attracted to.

[–]RedPillWonderMod | American man3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Let's get God's thoughts:

Consider the end of the book of Job.

After having almost everything taken from him, Job has everything restored to him. Twice over. He also has seven sons and three daughters (his previous children were killed).

And God says this about his daughters....

"And in all the land there were no women so beautiful as Job’s daughters."

God values physical beauty enough to brag on Job's daughters. They were gorgeous! And not just in their hometown, but in all the land.

Now that's saying something.

We often find God commenting (through inspiration of the Holy Spirit upon the writers) on a woman's physical beauty, and it usually gives greater context.

For instance, Abraham's wife Sarah when she was (briefly) taken from him because Pharaoh wanted her, and thankfully God protected her.

Or Hadassah (Esther) being chosen for her beauty. Acknowledging their beauty helps understand the passages.

But with this one, it seems God is going out of his way to brag on their beauty without "needing" to.

Sure, there's the inheritance comment that follows. But that could be noted without commenting on how attractive they were!

When evaluating beauty, people often use it generally and include more things like inward beauty. Character. To use a a biblical phrase, "the beauty of holiness."

And, of course, it plays a very important role.

It's helpful as well to consider physical beauty as /u/OsmiumZulu writes in choosing one's wife.

I'll also note (while I wasn't there) I imagine God created Eve as the most fantastically beautiful woman who would ever live!

Golden Mean proportions everywhere, I bet. Unless you think God created Eve as a fat, ugly harpy and asked Adam "What do you think about hopping on that?! Nice, right?"

While I try and use humor and a little emotionally charged phrasing at times in my comments to get a point to sink in, try and consider the forest and the trees.

Keep a healthy balance.

Yes, physical beauty matters. Especially to men.

And yes, character and holiness are far more important. It doesn't mean you can't look for and (hopefully) have both.

Alright, I'm off to see the new Star Wars movie. Ya'll be good while I'm gone :)

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's get God's thoughts

Hah! I used to use a saying: "Let's Scripturize this." Great references!

[–]RedPillWonderMod | American man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I used to use a saying: "Let's Scripturize this."

I like it :)

Great references!

Thanks!

I think I'll just follow you and Osmium around and take notes. You pathetic rascals! ;) Ya'll have the best thoughts.

[–]InvincibleKraken1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

So you put a premium on screening candidates for attractiveness, marry, and then see her attractiveness take a nose dive once she has "settled down" and considers herself off the market. What do you do then? How are you going to lead yourself? Her? What about in twenty years when age diminishes natural beauty?

Your post is fine, but I don't see a lot of depth in it to sustain you into a marriage. Be careful you're not "building a foundation" in r/RPChristians just to find yourself trying to pick up the rubble of your weak foundation in r/marriedredpill because the "frame" of your foundation cracked.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

See: the end of the post

Age happens. There is a world of difference between a fifty year old woman who has made an effort to keep up her appearances (like my mother in law, who is a bit older than that and still pretty hot for her age) and the woman who has been letting herself go for three decades. I don’t expect perfection, but I do expect effort.

Also, my wife and I are bother more attractive since getting married, so the whole appearances “take a nosedive” after being off the market thing doesn’t have to go that way.

[–]InvincibleKraken0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You're right. It doesn't have to go that way. My point to OP was, he can do all the pre-screening for attractiveness that he wants but he can't control what happens after the marriage. Is he committed to the right path?

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not being privy to God’s unrevealed will, we are left to make decisions based on known variables.

Now, one can marry an unattractive person for “potential” future improved attractiveness, not only is there no guarantee that it will ever be realized, there is already evidence that suggests they wont improve in that area because they haven’t already. So you are left lookin for someone who is already attractive because at least at that point you know it is possible.

While not always the case (such as with my wife and me) I advise people to look at the potential spouse and assume that this is their peak physical attractiveness. Would they be satisfied if they never had it better than this? If not, why risk it?

And yes, it is about much more than physical appearance, but it isn’t less than that. The primary unique aspect of the husband wife relationship is the sexual component, everything else you could lawfully get without marrying, so why settle for “meh”?

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

in RP some believe in the concept of "wife goggles" or something

Basically the theory goes that men married to a wife for a long time will find her just as attractive as the day he married her. That is, if they stayed committed to each other throughout and she is actually a submissive, obedient wife.

Apparently only married men understands this, so hopefully some married men here can share their thoughts

[–]SteelSharpensSteelEndorsed, MRP Mod2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have wife goggles for my wife. It is a thing.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As it should be. If a wife is good and faithful to her man, she absolutely deserves total commitment from her husband for life.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a genuine psychological phenomenon, not just among the RP population. Just as women have retroactive emotions, men have mnemonic attraction. A woman's retroactivity with her feelings says she imputes how she feels today onto her memory of how she felt in the past. A man's mnemonic attraction (my terminology, I don't recall the actual phrase) means he imputes his attraction from the past onto how he sees someone today.

It stems mostly from what I've written about in the past about the "summer effect" in high school. In past comments, I've noted that a fat nerd who gradually from August to May becomes buff will still never get noticed by the girls - he's still the fat nerd to them because his change was incredibly gradual. But take the same person and the same development from May to August (during summer when those girls won't see you for a few months) and all of a sudden people are asking, "What happened to him over summer? He's hot now!"

Since we're around our wives all the time, and they're around us, a similar effect happens. We still see them as they were, not as they are. At a conscious level, we can pick apart the differences, but subconsciously that memory from our attraction in the past is burned into us. That's why the "past lover" or "old fling" is such a powerful concept. We remember this intense, burning desire and when we see them again, in the absence of drastic, drastic changes that cannot be ignored, the subtleties of age, just a few pounds, less muscle tone, etc. just go unnoticed and we still get that rush of excitement at seeing the person we were once obsessed with. But if the changes are too significant, then the "summer change" effect triggers and our past attraction is broken.

[–]RedPillWonderMod | American man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, physical beauty matters.

The degree of importance varies from man to man, but do not exclude it in your considerations of a wife.

As OP noted in a reply:

I don’t expect perfection, but I do expect effort.

This. Many times over.

It's caring enough about yourself and your spouse to maintain your appearance as best you can. If you love your spouse, you should be motivated to do so, as it brings benefits and happiness for both of you, among other reasons.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post. Thanks for this!

[–]Rivkariver0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. You should. Not in the sense of a vain idea that everyone must think your spouse is hot. But you must be attracted. Married sex is a gift from God to create new human beings made in His image and to bond the couple for a happier family. A marriage without sex is bad, and withholding it without good reason is cruel. So you really need to make sure the chemistry is there. No you don't need to sleep together before marriage, but you need to be attracted.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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