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[Theory] Evangedating (AKA: Missional Dating)

June 14, 2018

Alright gents. Disclaimer time.


The following is meant to be debated. If you disagree, bring it up and yell at me in the comments. Iron sharpens iron (ISI. Can that be a thing?) and the community is made better when we can openly discuss controversial ideas.

If you've been in the church for more than a hot second you've seen a brother or sister start dating (or "dating") an obviously secular peer. Smitten with their good looks and abundant charm, the brother or sister attempts to excuse their behavior and downplay their emotional (or perhaps physical) attachment.

"Dating? Him? Oh no, we're just really close friends. I mean, maybe some day, but he's not a Christian after all. But wouldn't it be great if he becomes one?"

Oh yeah, she's cute, we've been talking a lot about Jesus. I think she's really open to the gospel man, really.

Not a Christian? How can you say that! Sure, they don't always go to church or read scripture regularly, but they were raised right and totally love Jesus.

You get the point.

We see this begin to happen and often scoff, but can't help but shake the notion that the temptation makes sense. The average congregation is made up of fairly average looking people who don't try much when it comes to appearances. After all, why would the women go out of their way to doll up to impress the stick figure soy boys or the overweight keyboard jockeys? Sure, they will likely marry one of them and throw duty sex periodically to fulfill their wifely duty, but why go the extra mile?

Then consider the guys. They look around on a Sunday morning and see the following:

Already married women Little house on the prairie re-enactment girl "If-she-was-any-more-covered-she'd-be-wearing-a-burka lady" Fat and loved "just the way she is" Super hot gir- crap she's married to one of the guys in the band Older, single, desperate. The pastor probably tried to set you up already.

The point should be clear. There is a real motivation beyond just "desires of the flesh" that is making young christian singles look outside the church. We ought not minimize that.

So, OZ, can Christians date outside the church or not?

Yes. Christian men can, but you probably shouldn't.

Wait. What?

Yes. I think that Christian men can date non-Christians but that it is a terrible idea for most of them because they lack sufficient frame.

I'll put it this way. Women long to adopt the rock solid frame of a strong man. Even non-Christians, unless they are truly vile SJW porkbeasts. If a Christian man is resolute in worldview, uncompromising in his ethical conduct, and intent on disciplining those around him, he will repulse women who cannot see themselves being with such a backwards hate filled bigot. Why would a secular woman put up with such a man if she wasn't drawn toward something more?

Think about what women put up with to be with a man of high value. Abuse. Cheating. Total lack of reliability. Etc. In the end it is because they have adopted his frame and operate within it. Not only do they put up with such stupid behavior, they actually make excuses for the man and defend him! Why is it so hard to conceive of secular woman being attracted to and then adopting the frame of a Christian man?

At risk of reductio ad absurdum consider what is happening in Europe. Secular European feminists are converting to Islam to get plowed by devotees to Allah. Why?

Seriously. Why?

Islam is the antithesis of everything Europeans allegedly stand for. So why are European women giving lip service to secular feminism and then giving "lip service" to immigrants? Because they cannot help but adopt a dominant frame.

Consider this. In America most women we encounter "grew up in a Christian home" and then stopped practicing. Why? Because dad, the pastor, and their male peers (prospective mates) had lousy frame. I imagine many women in such a position would welcome with open arms (and legs) a strong male Christian frame.

Now let me be clear. Men cannot replace the Holy Spirit. Conversion is an unmerited gift of grace. I'm not suggesting that a guy reading this should go and try to "convert himself a wife!" because it doesn't work that way.

So how does it work?

Imagine this. A Christian man, who is faithful, fit, and financially secure, sees a bikini clad hottie at the local swimming hole. He has no idea if she is a Christian or not but approaches anyway. He games her and throughout the fun conversation she gives IOI. He gets her number. Later, they arrange a date. Boundaries are upheld but a good time is had. He invites her to church and she starts going. He wisely assumes she is attending because she wants to get his sausage and doesn't move forward. He denies exclusivity and does not offer any emotional or major time commitment. Time passes. She claims to have become a Christian. He remains skeptical. Over a length of time, many discussions, and keen observations he is eventually convinced that her faith is the genuine article. He dates her more seriously now and screens hard. He eventually determines that she is wife material and proposes. They get married. Kids are had and God's kingdom advances.

Does that sound like a fairy tale? Well, with some illustrative variation, that is a paraphrased story of how I met and eventually married my wife.


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Post Information
Title [Theory] Evangedating (AKA: Missional Dating)
Author OsmiumZulu
Upvotes 10
Comments 24
Date June 14, 2018 8:57 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RPChristians
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/theory-evangedating-aka-missional-dating.301897
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/8r0c2l/theory_evangedating_aka_missional_dating/

[–] points points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No doubt.

The trouble is the can be part. I’ve known and heard of many men who marry such a woman and the woman, while a great wife in many respects, is a terrible lover who can’t get out of their head about sex being just too carnal.

But your point remains for those who willing to assume that risk. I personally wasn’t. I can make do, go without, or outsource, just about any domestic widely duty apart from sex, so I placed a high premium on the sexual / “lover” aspect while looking for a wife. No regrets on that front.

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I snorted coffee out my nose. That's me alright! (The LHOTP girl, not necessary a diamond, lol.)

[–]Romans8_18-393 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

In Exodus and Deureronomy, Israel is warned that they should neither give their daughters to the people of the land nor take the peoples daughters for their sons. God's reason for this is spelled out explicitly in both circumstances. Their gods will become a snare for you. That is the danger of being with a woman outside of the congregation.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So don’t marry her if she doesn’t become a Christian?

Date is the key term here. No one is suggesting you get hitched or go exclusive with some pagan thot. That said, God’s people intermarried with foreign converts throughout scripture, including members of the messianic line (ex: Ruth and Rahab).

Edit: Additionally, taking the gods of the women is the weakest beta frame ever.

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And if her dad says you and all of your buddies have to be circumsized in order for you to marry her ... it's a trap! :-o

[–]Stryker72000 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is just asking for trouble really. It may work occasionally. I’ve seen it work and I’ve seen it blow up into a massive disaster with the wife letting the town run trains on her after giving her husband 3 kids. I’d tread very very lightly.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No disagreement here. I’d say this strategy is inherently very risky and that few men ought attempt it.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

  • Already married women
  • Little house on the prairie re-enactment girl
  • "If-she-was-any-more-covered-she'd-be-wearing-a-burka lady"
  • Fat and loved "just the way she is"
  • Super hot gir- crap she's married to one of the guys in the band
  • Older, single, desperate. The pastor probably tried to set you up already.
  • The “born again virgin”

Never seen the burka lady. No Christians except maybe the Amish or Mennonites and very conservative Orthodox or Catholic Churches have head coverings now.

Also, you forgot another: Evangelical American Princess (EAP) who is holding out for that one alpha Christian guy. Of which there are many.

Consider this. In America most women we encounter "grew up in a Christian home" and then stopped practicing. Why? Because dad, the pastor, and their male peers (prospective mates) had lousy frame. I imagine many women in such a position would welcome with open arms (and legs) a strong male Christian frame.

While this is on the list of possible explanations (and true in some cases), there are a few that probably come before that.

Most of these 'Christians' are cultural Christians rather than actual Christians. Also, most Churches do a crappy job of discipling -- they're concerned about 'saving people' but they don't teach how to effectively grow to maturity in Christ. To use the parable of the sower analogy, you get a bunch of plants with the shallow roots that grow up and wither.

Does that sound like a fairy tale? Well, with some illustrative variation, that is a paraphrased story of how I met and eventually married my wife.

I think it can work in isolated cases, but a Christian man must be mature enough to walk through the entire situation with strong discernment and wisdom (which there are very few). The woman must actually want to be a genuine Christian, and that is verrrry difficult to tell for most men. And for the man doing this he must not otherwise get involved in a relationship while seeing her through to maturity.

One of the big issues, which I actually ran into in one case, is that while trying to evangelize and bring a Christian woman to maturity they will often act jealous as if you were their boyfriend already. I thought about dating her (and I suppose she did want to date me which is why she was jealous), but I had my concerns and they were verified in the end.

Overall, a bad idea 99.99% of the time. The fact that it can work is not a reason to base a solid plan around it.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Agreed all around. I think the majority of Christian men should avoid this strategy. I just wouldn’t be dogmatic about saying every Christian man should avoid it.

RP is all about adding tools to the belt. Doesn’t mean every tool is worth using or always safe to use.

[–]Stryker72000 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just the fact that even the culture know women take on new roles and hobbies for the guys they are interested in should be the first red flag to this strategy. It is impossible for any person to judge another’s heart (determine salvation). At best we can observe their actions. But women are pretty good at adopting things they don’t actually enjoy or believe. So this is a very risky strategy.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, but then again you also never know the condition of the heart of a born and raised church girl either. People are all flawed that way, and any marital decision will be an act of faith. It isn’t a matter of, “this is risky” and “X isn’t” but a weighing of which risk to take. Granted, this method typically bears more risk.

Also, yes, women take on the frame of the man they are attracted to / committed to (assuming the man has a stronger frame). But we have to see that as a design feature, not a flaw. Your response here makes it seem like a flaw when in reality it is what makes marriage possible. If a woman fakes faith to land a guy then her lie is sin, surely. But if a woman adopts the faith of a man she is attracted to in earnest, that shouldn’t be met with hostility. Suspicion yes, but these things can be vetted enough to make a reasonably low risk decision to marry. I know several friends / couples who this is their story and they remain happily married to this day.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of these 'Christians' are cultural Christians rather than actual Christians.

The woman must actually want to be a genuine Christian, and that is verrrry difficult to tell for most men.

I agree 100%.

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Christian men* can, but you probably shouldn't.

*Men can but women can't. Why? Because if they do they will take on the frame of the secular guy which is obviously a terrible idea when it comes with eternal damnation.

As controversial as it sounds, I have to agree to some extent (the extent being you don't marry the non-christian)

Well if so then it can only work if you:

  1. know exactly what you want out of the date
  2. know exactly what your beliefs are, and can live up to them

So since I date girls mainly for a fun time, company of a hot girl, free meals from rich girls (lol), and since I am not convinced God likes non-married people to be banging each other, and I am able to not bang girls I date.... so yeah, I do date non-Christian girls. I'm not gonna let any churchian tell me otherwise.

But tbh I can't see many men having the exact same situation...

Off-topic but lemme just take this opportunity to say I have no idea why Christians in the Manosphere do not advise against dating christians from the same church. It's like, they know "don't 5h1t where you eat" is a thing, but somehow when it comes to the church they can't make the same connection...

[–]WhitifiedBlue Target BAZOOKA1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Already married women

Little house on the prairie re-enactment girl

"If-she-was-any-more-covered-she'd-be-wearing-a-burka lady"

Fat and loved "just the way she is"

Super hot gir- crap she's married to one of the guys in the band

Older, single, desperate. The pastor probably tried to set you up already.

btw you missed the "born-again virgin"

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. Updated the post.

[–]Stryker72001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The nuclear rejection at a church has sent many young men elsewhere and I’ve seen it happen time after time.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Literally 5 hours before you posted this I had written this in another thread:

To be clear, I DO NOT recommend evangedating. Don't engage in romantic relationships with non-Christians on the hope that they might become saved. But you can evangelize to a non-Christian on the hope that she might one day become date-worthy. The distinction is which comes first. In evangedating, the relationship precedes salvation. In evangelizing-to-dating, the focus is on a woman's salvation, which precedes any actual relationship. This can be quite delicate, but I'll tell you that I know many, many, many truly godly men and women who are only saved because an attractive person invited them to a Christian event. For many of these people, they never even ended up in a relationship with that person, but the invitation alone was enough to get them moving in the right direction. This includes the guy who discipled me.

I stand by that assessment. In short, I agree with a lot of what you've said. There's just no need to put it in a romantic context. You can go out to eat, take long walks on the beach, have a game night, hit up a movie - whatever. But as you say, there's no exclusivity or long-term intentions. Can this potentially lead her on? Sure, but as long as you're clear up-front about your commitment level, that's on her head, not yours.

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd say if you're going to go down this road, make sure there isn't an element of codependency into your strategy (that is, focusing on your partner's spiritual growth at the expense of your own, or as a way to avoid working on your own issues).

[–]wafflesandwich240 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The Bible is very clear not to marry non Christians, which you addressed, but I think even dating is risky. It can have many of the same things the Bible warns about and I doubt it'll be very effective. You have a very low chance that a girl will grow genuine faith because she wants to be with you, regardless of your looks. This just sounds like you don't like the girls at your church and you're looking for an argument to justify dating anyone

[–]RedPillWays0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This might work for a woman that's not smoking hot. The chicks I know that are hot don't have morals. They do snow, have or are down for have a train ran on them. Constantly hit up bars and use men as resources. If her SMV allows for it she will take full agency to use it. Dudes that don't do these things are going to have a hard time competing. She wants those feels. It's going to be BB vs. AF I guarantee you. The AF makes her feel some type of while the BB is predictable. Now if you are a 8 and she's 6 then yeah she will tolerate it. Chances are she hasn't had that party experience because of her SMV. Then again guys are thirsty, so might have to go lower. The problem is once she has those party years she's going to have Superman complex. This isn't the best I can do because I've had X amount of guys. Christian guys can't help but be predictable because we operate by a code. Once she figures this out she usually uses it to her advantage. You'll run into the whole Samson and Delilah issue. Where the guy is constantly being beat down. The desire component will make you lose frame. Otherwise why even go for the hot chick. The guy that could maintain frame is one who isn't even thinking about hotness. Her sexual prowess is her only agency. You would have to be crazy to think she won't use it on you.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The key is to get to her before she has had those wild party years. I have little doubt that my wife would have been caught up in the mess and walked a very different path if she had already gone to college before we met. Fortunately she had delayed doing so for a few reasons and by and large avoided the CC.

[–]BluepillProfessorEndorsed | MRP Mod0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I will leave it at: 1 Kings 11

Solomon’s Idolatry 11 King Solomon loved many foreign women in addition to Pharaoh’s daughter. He loved Hittite women and women from Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon. 2 They came from the nations about which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “Never intermarry with them. They will surely tempt you to follow their gods.” But Solomon was obsessed with their love. 3 He had 700 wives who were princesses and 300 wives who were concubines. [a] 4 In his old age, his wives tempted him to follow other gods. He was no longer committed to the Lord his God as his father David had been. 5 Solomon followed Astarte (the goddess of the Sidonians) and Milcom (the disgusting idol of the Ammonites). 6 So Solomon did what the Lord considered evil. He did not wholeheartedly follow the Lord as his father David had done. 7 Then Solomon built an illegal worship site on the hill east of Jerusalem for Chemosh (the disgusting idol of Moab) and for Molech (the disgusting idol of the Ammonites). 8 He did these things for each of his foreign wives who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. God Pronounces Judgment on Solomon 9 So the Lord became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 God had given him commands about this. He told him not to follow other gods. But Solomon did not obey God’s command. 11 The Lord told Solomon, “Because this is your attitude and you have no respect for my promises[b] or my laws that I commanded you to keep, I will certainly tear the kingdom away from you. I will give it to one of your servants. 12 But I will not do it in your lifetime because of your father David. I will tear it away from the hands of your son. 13 However, I will not tear the whole kingdom away from you. I will give your son one tribe for my servant David’s sake and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city that I chose.” Rebellions against Solomon 14 The Lord raised up Hadad the Edomite as a rival to Solomon. Hadad was from the Edomite royal family. 15 When David had conquered Edom, Joab, the commander of the army, went to bury those killed in battle and killed every male in Edom. 16 (Joab and all Israel stayed there six months until they had destroyed every male in Edom.) 17 Hadad was a young boy at the time. He and some of his father’s Edomite servants fled to Egypt. 18 They left Midian and went to Paran. Taking some men from Paran with them, they went to Pharaoh (the king of Egypt). Pharaoh gave Hadad a home, a food allowance, and land. 19 Pharaoh approved of Hadad. So he gave Hadad his sister-in-law, the sister of Queen Tahpenes, to be Hadad’s wife. 20 Tahpenes’ sister had a son named Genubath. Tahpenes presented the boy to Pharaoh in the palace, and Genubath lived in the palace among Pharaoh’s children. 21 When Hadad heard in Egypt that David had lain down in death with his ancestors and that Joab, the commander of the army, had died, he said to Pharaoh, “Let me go to my own country.” 22 Pharaoh asked him, “What don’t you have here that makes you eager to go home?” “Nothing,” he said. “But let me leave anyway.” 23 God also raised up Rezon, son of Eliada, as a rival to Solomon. Rezon fled from his master, King Hadadezer of Zobah, 24 after David killed the men of Zobah. Rezon gathered men and became the leader of a troop of warriors. They went to Damascus, settled there, and ruled a kingdom in Damascus. 25 In addition to the trouble that Hadad caused, Rezon was Israel’s rival as long as Solomon lived. He ruled Aram and despised Israel. 26 There was also Jeroboam, who was the son of Nebat and an Ephrathite from Zeredah. His mother Zeruah was a widow. He was one of Solomon’s officers, but he rebelled against the king. 27 This was the situation when he rebelled against the king: Solomon was building the Millo[c] and repairing a break in the wall of the City of David. 28 Solomon saw that Jeroboam was a very able and hardworking man. So he put Jeroboam in charge of all forced labor from the tribes of Joseph. 29 At that time Jeroboam left Jerusalem. The prophet Ahijah from Shiloh met him on the road. The two of them were alone in the open country, and Ahijah had on new clothes. 30 Ahijah took his new garment and tore it into 12 pieces. 31 He told Jeroboam, “Take 10 pieces because this is what the Lord God of Israel says: I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon’s hands and give ten tribes to you. 32 He will have one tribe left because of my servant David and Jerusalem, the city I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel. 33 I will do this because he has abandoned me and worshiped Astarte (the goddess of the Sidonians), Chemosh (the god of Moab), and Milcom (the god of Ammon). He has not followed my ways. He did not do what I consider right or keep my laws and decrees as his father David did. 34 “I will not take the whole kingdom from him. Instead, I will allow him to be ruler as long as he lives because of my servant David whom I chose, who obeyed my commands and laws. 35 But I will take the kingdom away from his son and give you ten tribes. 36 I will give his son one tribe so that my servant David will always have a lamp in my presence in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to place my name. 37 “I will choose you so that you can rule everything you desire. You will be king of Israel. 38 If you will do all I command you, follow my ways, and do what I consider right by obeying my laws and commands as my servant David did, then I will be with you. I will build a permanent dynasty for you as I did for David. And I will give you Israel. 39 I will make David’s descendants suffer for this, but not always.” 40 Then Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam, but Jeroboam fled to King Shishak of Egypt. He stayed in Egypt until Solomon died. Solomon’s Death 41 Aren’t the rest of Solomon’s acts—everything he did—and his wisdom written in the records of Solomon? 42 The length of Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem over all Israel was 40 years. 43 Solomon lay down in death with his ancestors and was buried in the City of David. His son Rehoboam succeeded him as king.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think this is a bit off topic actually. No one here is suggesting a Christian marry a “foreign woman” (non-believer) like Solomon did. What is being suggested is more of a Ruth / Rahab situation where a “foreign woman” joins God’s people and then marries.

What I am specifically challenging is the idea that going on dates with unbelievers is always to be avoided.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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