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Theory: Why The Average Christian Woman Is Unattractive

July 31, 2018
17 upvotes

The following is a theoretical examination. It is an attempt add to an important conversation and my hope is that it helps add to our understanding of important sexual dynamics as they pertain to the church. This should be critically examined and critique, discussion, and correction are all most welcome. Lastly, it should be noted that there are many very attractive Christian women despite the average being somewhat unfavorable.


Basic Economics of Attraction


It has become increasingly common to discuss individual attractiveness in terms of Sexual Market Value. This term is not just an abstraction. The Sexual Marketplace can be analyzed using economic theories just like any other economic system. By considering sexual behavior and attraction in economic terms one can gain valuable insight. For added clarity we can suspend moral and legal judgments to better see what is going on "under the hood" and reintroduce

Supply and Demand

In microeconomics, the law of supply and demand helps us understand the valuation of a good or service, in this case a mate. Where demand is high and mates are scarce, the value of a potential mate is high.

Let's consider some examples. (For the sake of simplicity, assume the "normal" baseline gender ratio is 1:1)

Imagine a boat with 100 people aboard, 50 men and 50 women. The ratio of men to women is 1:1. Now imagine that at the next port 40 of the women go ashore, leaving 50 men and 10 women behind for the next leg of the voyage. Now the ratio is 5:1, skewed heavily toward the men. The 50 men didn't magically become more sexually needy, so the demand for a mate remained constant. The supply, however, was greatly diminished. We know from the law of supply and demand that the value of the 10 remaining women would sharply rise; scarcity drives up price. This is all fairly intuitive and works the opposite direction as well; if men are scarce but women are plentiful, the value of the men increases as competition for each one becomes more fierce.

So what's the deal with churches?

The gender ratio is roughly 2:3; two men to every three women. This imbalance where there are more women than men should lead us to the conclusion that churches are a highly competitive environment for women looking for a husband. In competitive environments, women engage in an arms race of attraction oneupsmanship in order to secure a mate. Despite this logical conclusion, the reality in most churches is that women do not feel the need to compete for men and are, in general, less attractive than the average woman in the broader culture. This phenomenon has been observed, commented on, and discussed at length on this sub.

Why Does This Occur?


There are many possible explanations. It has been suggested that perhaps the church, being a welcoming place for the broken and weary, naturally harbors more of the dregs and downtrodden of society. While this is likely a part of the reason, it seems insufficient to explain the whole of the situation.

In my opinion, a more complete and compelling reason is that when hypergamy is factored into the equation, the gender ratio is actually reversed. Let me explain.

One of the principles of hypergamy is that men who rate below a 7 on the SMV scale simply do not exist in her sexual considerations. Even a woman who is a 3 or a 4 will not see a man below a 7 as a sexual being. Sure, they may end up marrying a commensurate 4 or 5, but that does not mean they see them as a sexual partner. No, they will see their husband as a roommate, child, provider, or friend. Sex for such a woman becomes a duty rather than a desire.

If one were to examine the congregations in America, especially on the coasts, one would find few men who rate above a 7 in terms of SMV. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the average church attending man of age is a 6, which may be generous in many places. Men are not hypergamous. We are willing to marry across, up, or somewhat down, the ladder. A man who is a 6, while he may prefer women who are 8+, will still find a 5 to be a potential sexual partner.

What this means is that in order to find the true gender ratio, we need to look beyond simply comparing the number of men to the number of women attending church. Instead, we need to look at the number of sexually appealing women to sexually appealing men. Perhaps mercifully there is no objective way to measure this. Speaking from observation, it would not seem far-fetched to me if the number of Christian men willing to partner sexually with the average woman is far greater than the number of Christian women willing to partner sexually with the average man. Thus, the supply of sexually available males is far above the demand, leading to a decrease in male value and thus a decrease in female competitiveness.

Drawing Conclusions


Christian communities are essentially "closed markets" with stiff tariffs. Shopping for a wife from outside the church (aka: importing) is generally frowned upon. Thus, Christian women, do not feel the need to compete with "foreign brands" in the market. Ford and Chevy were dominant automobile brands in America until they had to compete with foreign companies. Once foreign companies became players in American markets, Ford and Chevy were forced to up their game and offer the consumer more value to remain competitive.

Further, Christian men (fathers, pastors, brothers, husbands, etc) have an incentive not to encourage Christian women to become highly attractive in general. While the church is a closed market only buying domestic goods, the world has no objections to buying the church's exports. A highly attractive single Christian woman will be sexually pursued by men outside the church, increasing her abundance, while Christian men are largely limited to the bounds of the church in their sexual pursuits, decreasing their relative abundance.

Because of this limitation on the "size" of christian male "hunting ground", Women in church do not feel the need to go above and beyond in enhancing their beauty because they know that they are in high demand as they are.

One upside element to this is that the few men who are a 7+ in the church enjoy the benefits of being a scarce commodity. This certainly played out in my own favor. While I was single, many single women in my church (and others nearby) were aggressively pursuing me at the same time, competing with one another for my attention. Of course the down-side remains in that Christian women are on average less attractive than their heathen counterparts, so several of the pursuing women were not viable options.

Perhaps one way to improve this situation is to focus on elevating the SMV of the men around you. While it seems counter-intuitive to elevate the competition, this could be a case where a rising tide lifts every boat. Imagine a community where the average male SMV was 6. We know that men are typically able to marry one step below and still be content, so a female with a SMV of 5 would have a chance in the market. By increasing the average male SMV in a community to 8, that woman who is a 5 would need to elevate herself to at least a 7 to compete for an average male. It is difficult to say how this could be practically done, but it is theoretically a possible solution of sorts.

A potential side effect of this elevation of Christian male SMV would be macro community level dread. If Christian men as a whole, by some miracle, had an average SMV of 8+, it would not be surprising if they began to receive an elevated status in the broader culture as a sexually desirable demographic. In the same way that Brazilian Women enjoy a certain exotic branding, perhaps Christian Men could become the "gold standard" of hot guys. While it sounds crazy, it may not be too wild. There is a disturbing trend among some European countries where European women are seeking out Muslim men because they, unlike their soy-boy European counterparts, are not brainwashed by feminism and thus tend to exhibit more traditionally dominant and "Alpha" traits. It's a long shot, but crazier things have happened.

Another consideration is the messaging that is being preached to the church at large. The general message being sent to christian women is that men should love you for your inter-beauty and that outward appearances are of no importance. While there is some truth in that, it is too often taken too far and it has nearly become a matter informal dogma. Contrarily, Mormon women are taught to cultivate their beauty in order to attract and secure a worthwhile husband. This messaging comes from their mothers, fathers, peers, and leadership. While I am certainly not advocating for the Mormon faith, one cannot help but notice that on average Mormon women are more attractive than the average woman in most other faith communities. There are many things to consider here that can be gleaned without crossing over theological boundaries.

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Post Information
Title Theory: Why The Average Christian Woman Is Unattractive
Author OsmiumZulu
Upvotes 17
Comments 58
Date July 31, 2018 8:52 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit /r/RPChristians
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/theory-why-the-average-christian-woman-is.301826
https://theredarchive.com/post/301826
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/93csev/theory_why_the_average_christian_woman_is/
Comments

[–]Stryker72008 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you are on point as far as your SMV theory goes for christians. I do think the "Jesus is my boyfriend", "Jesus has my soulmate prepared for me", "I'm a special snowflake because Jesus says so", "Jesus loves me for who I am (overweight and all etc) definitely plays into a self-inflated SMV for church girls. Almost as much as the worldly girl that is a 6 who thinks she is an 8 just because some 8 guys are willing to give her one night stands.

I recently watched a Q&A session with Matt Chandler and his wife. One of the women in the audience asked Matt's wife how she can get married without being the pursuer. Matt's wife spent about 5 minutes answering the question, dancing around like crazy, and finally saying what boils down to as "Focus on your walk with Jesus and be yourself". While every christian should focus on Christ first, this gave nothing to the woman who asked the question. Women are so untouchable to crtizism they cannot even take self-help/improvement advice because "Jesus thinks they are perfect exactly how they are" and there is no reason to change anything. This is very destructive to a lot of young women that are actually desiring to get married.

Anyway, that combination of the above with the SMV issues that you detail in your post are what I believe have really screwed up the SMP in churches. One other final one that I have personally seen and heard many guys mention indirectly is the threat of the nuclear rejection in churches. Guys aren't let down easy these days if a girl rejects them. It is often nuclear and every girl in the church sees the rejection. Obviously this is the opposite of pre-selection, and other women that may have considered this guy that was rejected by one of them no longer consider him a viable date, even in the event his SMV is high enoug to secure a date with them normally.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

One aspect I've yet to see discussed here (still reading through the sidebar material) is that Christian men may be seen as less 'alpha' because of their submission to Christ, acknowledgement of their deep flaws, etc. Christian guys know they're fundamentally broken humans, working to be more like Christ, that's not exactly 'bad boy' material.

If you concede this (and you don't have to, please, go ahead and refute it) then would it not reduce the need of Christian women to work on their physical form? Supply of what hypergamy sees as "quality males" drops, the demand for the females to reciprocate with the feminine draw of physical attractiveness also drops?

[–]Rojo-Gringo3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Only if the "christ" presented to the church is a weakling as depicted on most Christian art work.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This.

Simply allowing depictions of "sissy Jesus" to dominate Christian art has served to erode masculinity within the church to a degree that I think would shock us.

[–]rocknrollchuckMod | 50M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the illustrations seem to forget that Christ was a working man for many years before he was of age to teach. Performing a job that required strength of arm.

[–]captain_my_captain225 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Brother, you are looking at this incorrectly. Yes we are flawed men, almost broken, no let's be real, we are so bad we know we deserve eternal hell. So what, if we know we are flawed?

What takes more internal strength? Looking in the mirror and saying, I am a horrible person who needs a Savior, or the man who looks in the mirror and says I'm not half bad.

Now if you followed the 'feminized' god of this world, the 'churchian' god, the god of "he loves me just the way I am" "all roads lead to god" etc etc, then yes, you will be seen as a weak, pitiful, beta.

If you follow the MAN who turned over the money tables, whipped the money changers, who silenced the pharisees with just a few words, this same MAN who will come back in armor with a sword to TAKE what is HIS, I follow HIM. So should you.

Do you think the men who followed Patton, were more or less 'alpha', how about those who followed Grant, How about those who followed Gideon? Following someone greater than yourself is Strength in action.

Now here is a man in depravity, writing about 'God Game' https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2017/10/19/god-game/ Truth is truth, Now 'banging on Saturday night' to go to church on Sunday is not a how we should do this, so how to you as a believing brother work 'God Game' and not in the 'churchian' way?

  • It's all about your 'mission' as Red-Curious likes to say, is always a higher priority than her, always.
  • She spouts off some nonsense of the 'feel good thing of the week' but it contradicts scripture; tell her she's incorrect, and why, in a firm loving way
  • She's is open to physical escalation, but you back off, and tell her why you are. (This is a hard one, very easy to fall into sin with this) but this will spin her hamster to 10K rpm

TL&DR It's all about your 'Frame',and since your frame's foundation should be built on the Rock that created the Universe, it's not ever "weak".

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That article is... fascinating. It is to our great shame that a secular man has a better handle on gender dynamics than most pastors, even in the conservative wings of the church. Thanks for linking it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess the other side of the coin of admitting you're corrupted and sinful is (or at least should be) glorious ambition, a desire to become more like the creator. A man who sets for himself that high a standard must be incredibly commited to self-improvement, in whatever aspect the Lord demands of him.

I do still see what is tempting to Christian women from the bad boys, it's a self sufficiency that is appealing. However, it is egotistical and hollow upon closer inspection. Better to have a foundation upon the Rock than whatever temporary value one's vanity may hold as lord.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think there may be something to what you are saying, but it depends on how the woman views Jesus. If she views Jesus primarily as some queer looking guy who walks around carrying lambs, her view of men who submit to queer Jesus will rightly be diminished in terms of their "alpha" status. On the other hand, if her theological head is on straight and she recognizes that Jesus is a sin conquering king who reigns over the world from the throne room of heaven, is bringing the nations into submission to His lordship, and will preside over the heavenly trial of every man and woman as judge, her perspective is far different.

A man who tries to wrestle a gorilla is not an alpha man, but a fool. That is plain to us. A man who defies God, the creator, judge, and king of the universe, is an obvious fool to anyone who knows God.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

One aspect I've yet to see discussed here (still reading through the sidebar material) is that Christian men may be seen as less 'alpha' because of their submission to Christ, acknowledgement of their deep flaws, etc. Christian guys know they're fundamentally broken humans, working to be more like Christ, that's not exactly 'bad boy' material.

Fallacy of omission.

Because there is a "dearth" of strong, masculine Christian leaders (men), you tend to get the "biased" view that only bad boys are attractive.

Take for example the manly leader of the worship band or the up-and-coming good looking pastor that's still single. It's often the case that a bunch of Christian women will be falling all over themselves to date and/or marry said men. You can see how attraction works in this instance, just like with any "bad boy" out there with women falling all over them.

It has nothing to do with weakness of submission to Christ or whatever nonsense secular RP comes up with nowadays.

If the Church had the monopoly on strong, manly men, even non-Christian women would be falling over themselves to date Christian men.

I'm no paragon of 'strong manly man' but it was obvious that a bunch of Christian women and non-Christian women were attracted to me while I was single and dating. The key is to raise and disciple strong, masculine leaders, and the women will follow. That's what Jesus did with His disciples.

I disagree with /u/OsmiumZulu that it depends on how a woman sees Jesus. It doesn't manner if she sees Jesus as some wimpy dude carrying lambs. Her hypergamy will always be attracted to strong, masculine men. That's why feminists, despite their crying otherwise, are still attracted to manly men even though they hate it.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If the Church had the monopoly on strong, manly men, even non-Christian women would be falling over themselves to date Christian men.

A very important point I wish the men in church worldwide would wake up to.

I disagree with /u/OsmiumZulu that it depends on how a woman sees Jesus. It doesn't manner if she sees Jesus as some wimpy dude carrying lambs. Her hypergamy will always be attracted to strong, masculine men.

The point I am making is that strong masculine men do not worship or live their life in submission to flannelgraph Jesus. Women know and pay attention to this. Sure, if a man is a 6'5", shredded, MMA fighter who happens to worship whimp-o Jesus, women won't care about the latter point enough to not find him attractive. The point is, such a man likely does not exist because you don't become a shredded MMA fighter when the "fuel" to your life is a sissy Jesus that doesn't want you to behave in a manly way.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The point I am making is that strong masculine men do not worship or live their life in submission to flannelgraph Jesus. Women know and pay attention to this. Sure, if a man is a 6'5", shredded, MMA fighter who happens to worship whimp-o Jesus, women won't care about the latter point enough to not find him attractive. The point is, such a man likely does not exist because you don't become a shredded MMA fighter when the "fuel" to your life is a sissy Jesus that doesn't want you to behave in a manly way.

Ah, I got what you're saying here. Actions follow the attitude.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Precisely.

[–]ExistentialEnnuii1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I completely agree. We are taught to shun all things secular. Growing up it was ingrained in me that woman were "impure" sex was looked as dirty. Suppressed masculinity. Church is full of soy boys. There is a lot of crying going on in church. The 'men' crying at the pulpit. I noticed that a lot of 'christian' woman always choose outside of church and try to convert the pagan to christ and 9/10 it doesn't work out she ends up leaving the church for the guy then finds jesus again and 'conciliates'

Woman are told they are the brides of christ therefore queens and princesses which doesn't help out a lot. The men? well they are filled to the brim with carnal desires and need to weep daily to atone to such dirty nature.

This is why I can't return to church.

[–]Rojo-Gringo3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If you're already married, it gets worse. The married women in church look even more aweful. They know that now, their man CAN'T have options or else it's called adultery and subject to church discipline (if it's a biblical church that still practices that). The married Christian women have their first kid and get fat, crop and bob their hair and generally end up looking like this. Christian men know they can't do anything about it, so they let themselves go and generally look like overweight betas shlubs. To make matters worse, the church is full of blue pill beta pastors and leaders who preach that loving your wife like Christ loved the church means to submit to her every demand and deny yourself of your own manhood.

[–]Stryker72002 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yep. By 35 all the ladies in church have hair that doesn’t even reach their shoulders. Completely ignoring 1st Corinthians 11. In the 1st year of my marriage I told my wife she will never have hair shorter than her shoulders and she will never be caught in anything but a skirt at church. So far she has been willing to obey out of respect for me, but it hard when all the other women are the opposite.

[–]Rojo-Gringo3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I visited the Bible college I went to 20 years ago and the single females I saw are already overweight and plain looking...and they are at their peak SMV years! I can't imagine how grotesque they will look in their 30s!

[–]Stryker72003 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Its insane. And if you try to even broach the subject with anyone they are instantly offended. The concept of wanting to appear attractive for their husbands etc is completely foreign to them and deemed inconceivable. It is such an example of a lack of any respect at all that it boggles my mind any young christina man wants to get married these days.

[–]Rojo-Gringo5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The pious Christianeeze starts to oooze out all over when they quote "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart" out of context. Then, when you talk about how a man expects to be loved in a sexual way, you are immediately looked at like a pervert. There is no openness to talk frankly about sexuality.

During a small group, the subject of purity came up and they asked us to discuss how we can maintain it among ourselves. I suggested that we stop being taboo about talking about it. We need to be able to call a spade a spade. Men want sex to be loved. This is why we need this:

Titus 2:3-4

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands,

How many women's bible studies teach women how to love and submit?

[–]Stryker72002 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

100% agree with you. All through highschool I felt the disapproval from the mom's and even girls my age because I was more than a little bit masculine. The male desire for sex is considered evil by them. Plays into an entire spectrum of issues.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ironically enough, this can play into the whole "bad boy that mom doesn't want me to date" thing and actually help attract young women.

[–]squizzo_radActual Disciple-Maker!1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a shaved bald feminist (21yo) who is part of my church's worship team. Almost every week this woman is center stage, projecting her ugliness upon the congregation. I had no knowledge of the content of 1 Corinthians 11, especially verse 5. It further affirms my perspective.

[–]Stryker72000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow that is insane man. That would definitely be enough for me to approach leadership.

[–]ExistentialEnnuii2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

IF a woman wears make up the more 'holier' older woman start to talk about her in their social circles within the church about how she has the jezebel spirit that may tempt their husband and really they full on attack the girl. My only conclusion is to rip out a page from the Jewish book (oh no! read galatians!) Men seperated from woman. jewish woman adorn themselves for the husband regardless how grotesque she looks. really only hope there is for the christian folks TBH.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One other final one that I have personally seen and heard many guys mention indirectly is the threat of the nuclear rejection in churches. Guys aren't let down easy these days if a girl rejects them. It is often nuclear and every girl in the church sees the rejection. Obviously this is the opposite of pre-selection, and other women that may have considered this guy that was rejected by one of them no longer consider him a viable date, even in the event his SMV is high enoug to secure a date with them normally.

Good point. I touch on it in middle of this post. It can be a serious hindrance. A brother at my old church once ran afoul of this and ended up labeled as the "thirsty desperate guy" after crashing and burning with a couple of the women in church. In reality he actually didn't crash and burn, but had gone out on dates with several women. They collectively determined that to be desperate "player" like behavior and started to smear his reputation, especially with new girls joining the church. He eventually left and sought greener pastures. Good news is that it worked for him and he has found a suitable wife since then.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The gender ratio is roughly 2:3; two men to every three women. This imbalance where there are more women than men should lead us to the conclusion that churches are a highly competitive environment for women looking for a husband. In competitive environments, women engage in an arms race of attraction oneupsmanship in order to secure a mate. Despite this logical conclusion, the reality in most churches is that women do not feel the need to compete for men and are, in general, less attractive than the average woman in the broader culture. This phenomenon has been observed, commented on, and discussed at length on this sub.

Your assumptions are too broad here. This would be correct, IF it were a closed market. However, it's not a closed market because a Christian woman can just walk out of the Church and see an attractive non-Christian man and think to herself, "well, maybe he'll come to Christ if I missionary date him."

The "arms race" only occurs if there is an actual lack of men via closed market system, which is true after the World Wars and Vietnam especially after WW2 in Russia and Eastern Europe. Russian and Eastern European women are famous for their competitiveness to earn husbands and look good all the time because they are competing for the actual few men. In these hyper-competitive environments, the age of marriage will actually drop as you can see on this chart because the women are more willing to get married earlier to lock up a man.

As you said, only the men who reach an attractive enough SMV/MMV (comparable to or above her own) will a woman want to compete for in a mate. That's why Christian male 7+ have their pick of the liter and often women competing or at least hanging around them. If there aren't any Christian men like that, the Christian women will either pine away saying "where have all the good Christian men gone" or start missionary dating.

Couple all of this with most Christians being willfully ignorant or ignoring how attraction plays a role in marriage and you have a big mess. Also, the masculinity being beaten out of men is a big one too.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your assumptions are too broad here.

Yes, they are.

This would be correct, IF it were a closed market. However, it's not a closed market because a Christian woman can just walk out of the Church and see an attractive non-Christian man and think to herself, "well, maybe he'll come to Christ if I missionary date him."

Correct. Christian women aren't operating in a truly closed system. That said, I believe the stigmas associated with dating non-Christians are still strong enough in most conservative churches that the system is closed enough to make this a useful thought experiment.

The "arms race" only occurs if there is an actual lack of men via closed market system

This, logically, would be true. Your analysis about post war and Eastern European countries is spot on. However, it fails to explain some instances. For example, I recently spent some time in Los Angeles my wife and some of her friends from there. The place is crawling with highly attractive men and women. When it comes to attractive people, there are few places in the world with such abundance. The group of people we were hanging out with were all very much in the "scene" of LA. Interestingly, the arms race is out of control there. Women who are 9/10 talk openly about wanting to get plastic surgery done so they can be even hotter and get ahead. If it takes being a 7+ man to exist as a sexual person on the SMV chart, in LA it's more like 8+ to exist.

Despite there being thousands if not millions of viable partner options, there are enough 9+ around that being anything less puts one at a disadvantage. Given that 10/10s do not even necessarily exist, we are talking about some of the most attractive people on earth trying to out-compete one on the details.

It's sort of like watching the Olympics. Everyone on the screen is better than 99% of the world population, but they are still all but killing themselves to gain a tenth of a second improvement on their time.

[–]Deep_StrengthMod | Married | deepstrength.wordpress.com0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that makes sense.

In a hyper-competitive area you would expect hyper-competitive people. In terms of physical beauty for women and ripped muscular men, this would especially be true in areas where modeling and/or movies are made.

[–]etaomega0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

For example, I recently spent some time in Los Angeles my wife and some of her friends from there. The place is crawling with highly attractive men and women. When it comes to attractive people, there are few places in the world with such abundance.

Dude, I'm out here in LA and I agree with you regarding the concentration of physically stunning women. Unfortunately, LA is thoroughly depraved and most of the people out here are pursuing selfish ambition (it's Hollywood after all). As one who attends a conservative, reformed church the trickle down effect is even worse (you may get a couple but they just visit and don't stick around).

You would think that some of those beauties would make their way to the church. Nope. Church is like, so lame and would interfere with my Sunday yoga/day party/instagram opportunity game. Not to mention that anyone who thinks that "the gays" are going to hell is like, so bigoted.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. I've visited a couple times and that was enough for me. I generally advise people get out of cities like that, but if I had to stay for some reason I would probably approach the SMP this way:

1) Find a megachurch/parachurch organization that has all the usual bells and whistles of attractional ministry. These ministries tend to attract fairly high SMV women compared to other ministries. This "gateway" effect between culture and church comes with dangers, but can be promising. 2) Get involved in some very limited capacity (though still primarily focusing on the conservative church) 3) Meet / game the attractive women. They have to be at least somewhat open to Jesus / Christianity / Biblical teaching. 4) Screen screen screen screen screen. Then repeat. Vet her by leading her and setting clear expectations. Teach her how to treat you. 5) Indoctrinate, disciple, and otherwise push their comfort zones theologically with the women who pass screening. Maintain full OI and hold ironclad frame. If a woman rejects what the Bible teaches, especially after being given a reasonable explanation as to why it makes sense, next her. 6) If a woman passes through all of this, shows credible signs of being a believer, and is thoroughly in your frame, she may be a viable option for marriage. 7) ... this is where a decision must be made to either next or marry. Only you could make that decision, and you will have to make it with imperfect information. Good luck!

Either way you are looking at buying a fixer-upper. She likely has an N count beyond what many would be comfortable with. Plus the battle has just begun. The culture around her does not understand or respect marriage and will try to push her into violation of that covenant. She will be surrounded by thirsty jacked guys swinging their dicks around for any woman willing; she will always be literally a text message away from cheating.

TL;DR: Get out of LA :P

[–]etaomega1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

By increasing the average male SMV in a community to 8, that woman who is a 5 would need to elevate herself to at least a 7 to compete for an average male.

I wonder what this looks like in the real world (i.e. how does a woman elevate her attractiveness two points). From my keen eye a woman either has it or she doesn't. It is all about the God given genetics (facial structure, skin, body type, etc.). One can tell when a woman is naturally beautiful and overall attractive. If a woman has put on embelishments (i.e. make up, high heels, shapely attire, etc.) to bump up her attractiveness I can see through it. I say to myself, "Self, this chick is out here fooling dudes." and I filter her down to her natural rank.

I was married before so I know that the true (i.e. natural attractiveness) physical value of one's wife will behold itself in short order post wedding. Women can be a nuisance so I need to have her "morning" beauty at an above average level to carry me through those tough times.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bear in mind that increasing SMV is not a linear function. Moving from a 1 to a 5 is easier than moving from a 5 to a 7, which is easier than moving from a 7 to an 8. Going from 8 to 9 takes astronomical effort and in some cases would likely include surgery or something. Unless a woman has unusually unattractive facial features, most young women can get to a 7 with proper diet, exercise, and grooming.

Further, many women who should be 7’s are 5’s because of poor dress, unhealthy living, or bad habits. By simply not doing the stupid things that detract from their appearances (overeating, dressing poorly, stupid piercings, dyed hair, etc) they can elevate their SMV to its “real” value.

[–]RunawayGrain0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Given our society, beauty is kind of a curse for Christian women though.

A lot of them just stop attending church in their 20's when they hit their peak attractiveness, and then start re-appearing when the looks fade and they start trying to find a guy to settle with.

We have a group in our church that runs a group home school among the group. I've got negative feelings towards homeschool based on past experience, but that's what these guys do. Mainly these kids wind up being carefully steered through life until ~18 or so, then thrown in the deep end. This relates to your post in that we had a girl and guy from this group get married a couple years ago. She was hot. Like model levels of hot. The guy wasn't, at all. But their families were close, and I suspect they got steered into it. So they got married at 18, as soon as she was able to legally do so. She appeared to be eager and all for it at the time. Then she started college. She had a ton of guys hitting on her, and I guess she started to resent her husband. She went from a fairly nice girl to an absolute horror in pretty short order. The way she was treating the husband was pretty bad, then she finally divorced him.

I've seen things like that happen frequently with homeschooled kids, though, but it punctuates the fact that an attractive girl is heavily tempted by our society.

Contrarily, Mormon women are taught to cultivate their beauty in order to attract and secure a worthwhile husband.

I've been to a Mormon "Meet and Greet" and it should be called a "Meat Market." The emphasis is definitely on looks rather than substance.

[–]Stryker72002 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Your experience with the homeschool group is unfortunately one that a lot of christians run into when their sole goal is to shelter their children from the world. Many of these parents never leave the "Directive" style of parenting, meaing low support and high direction. They still control all aspects of their kids lives. Instead of progressing from directive to coaching, then into supporting, and finally delegating as the child enters highschool years, they remain overly controlling and directive. When the child is "shot out of the quiver" after 18, they are very susceptible to falling away from their teachings as they have not learned self-discipline or internalized the beliefs they have been taught, instead always relying on their parents to direct their every decision. It is a recipe for disaster IMO.

[–]RunawayGrain0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

My experience with them goes way beyond that, as I was a dean at a mid sized state university for nearly a decade. I'd say it follows the 80/20 rule in that 80 percent of the homeschool kids can't hack it. Most of the ones that made it had parents who were formerly in the teaching profession, so I directly attribute the problems to parents who lacked the necessary skills to educate and socialize their kids properly.

Funny story though. One day I heard a commotion outside, went to check, and found one of the home-school moms railing on my secretary. Her kids theology professor had talked to them about Jesus being Jewish, and how that impacted his message. I'll never forget mom yelling "Jesus wasn't Jewish. Ain't you seen the pictures?" at the top of her lungs at my bewildered secretary. Same kid "chased a spider" under one of the buildings, and we had to have a crew rip the floor out to get him free.

Sometimes I wonder what happened to those kids, but then I just sort of look away.

[–]Stryker72000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are definitely a lot of cooks out there. I am in IL, where despite being one of the most libtard states in the Union, it is the most free when it comes to homeschooling. There are a lot of crazy parents that pull their kids out of school and don’t really do anything with them. Then there is a very organized group of homeschoolers with kids that really exceed.

I was in the former group. Many of my homeschooled peers are very successful adults now. But I realize my experience may not have been the norm.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Curious, was this in the south?

I have found that in the PNW where I grew up, the homeschoolers are normally extremely, almost embarrassingly, more successful than their public or private school peers. Sure, they have an awkwardness to overcome when the enter the "real world" but once they adjust they tend to thrive.

[–]RunawayGrain0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep.

[–]Rojo-Gringo2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of them just stop attending church in their 20's when they hit their peak attractiveness, and then start re-appearing when the looks fade and they start trying to find a guy to settle with.

I hear this story all the time. They go off to college, party it up, repent and come back to the church.

Mormons put a lot of stock into being attractive on all fronts. They seem to be happy all the time, have picture perfect families, do everything with excellence and make their religion attractive to people looking for the perfect life hoping they can find it in religion.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

A lot of them just stop attending church in their 20's when they hit their peak attractiveness

I think answering "Why?" this is explains a lot.

A young pretty woman grows up in church, her beauty growing with each passing year. The young men in church take notice of her and attempt to "nice" their way into her heart. Those young men serving her every whim makes sense to her. After all, her father worships and serves her mother the same way.

In other words, I think a large part of the reason why we see this exodus is because most churches do not produce strong, capable, attractive young men and the pretty young women realize this and seek it out elsewhere.

[–]RunawayGrain0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you are wrong.

In other words, I think a large part of the reason why we see this exodus is because most churches do not produce strong, capable, attractive young men

They do, but not really intentionally. Where I attend there are some guys who are definitely 'with it.' Some get screwed over in a divorce, some get broadsided, but a few guys wise up eventually.

On the other hand, most of the attractive young women aren't incentivized to hang around. Waiting until marriage is long gone. Our now former youth pastor claimed that virginity was a made up concept used to oppress women. So when your essentially telling a group the same thing as their secular counterparts, should you really be surprised when they decide to take you up on that message?

My personal experience and time as a college admin has probably made me jaded though, because when we would go out recruiting many girls stated their after high school plan was to get married so they didn't have to get a job. So if I see an attractive girl getting married young nowadays I suspect she's using the guy as a free ride.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My personal experience and time as a college admin has probably made me jaded though, because when we would go out recruiting many girls stated their after high school plan was to get married so they didn't have to get a job. So if I see an attractive girl getting married young nowadays I suspect she's using the guy as a free ride.

I actually think I'd prefer a society where young attractive women skipped college (and the CC) in favor of getting married young and starting a family. Getting a "free ride" is much closer to the historical model that produced the West than it is to the crap show we have now.

[–]RunawayGrain0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I actually think I'd prefer a society where young attractive women skipped college (and the CC) in favor of getting married young and starting a family.

Yeah, but these girls didn't seem to have the idea of being a housewife, and more of a trophy wife where the husband bankrolled them while they lived out their "Sex and the City" style social dreams. Kids and housekeeping were nowhere in the equation.

Getting a "free ride" is much closer to the historical model that produced the West than it is to the crap show we have now.

When i bailed out of higher ed I thought it couldn't get much worse. They've proved me very, very wrong.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It has been suggested that perhaps the church, being a welcoming place for the broken and weary, naturally harbors more of the dregs and downtrodden of society. While this is likely a part of the reason, it seems insufficient to explain the whole of the situation.

I'd like to elaborate on this point, using the following verse as a framework.

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God - Matthew 19:24, NIV

This may be stretching the verse's meaning, however I only wish to use is as a conceptual frame. I'm not trying to say this is exactly what the verse means.

'Riches' come in many forms, a beautiful woman could be said to be rich in beauty. SMV for men, at least on the financial/status side, can be restored to acceptable levels once people are brought low enough to be able to see Christ through the increasingly thin veil of the little "riches" they have left. However, women's beauty (and men's, but that's less of a factor for their SMV) only wanes with time, and is largely genetic. Perhaps unfortunately for women, men simply have it easier in terms of repairing their SMV post their encounter with their Saviour. Especially considering the later the conversion the closer the woman is to 'the wall' and the man is actually more likely to be increasing in SMV due to career progress.

TLDR - Men's SMV is less time sensitive, more rebuildable.

[–]NikthePieEater0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What affect does Jesus have on hypergamy?

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy operates within the bounds of a given sexual marketplace. Jesus is not engaged in the SMP and thus does not distort it. Not sure if that answers your question.

Did you mean, "What effect does being a Christian have on a woman's hypergamy?"

[–]ExistentialEnnuii0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Anyone ever been in a hispanic evangelical/pentecostal church?

Among puerto ricans they do hold alot of family values, woman tend to take care of themselves.

Now the woman (men also) that are inside these temples i've noticed can't take accountability for their actions in life, always blame the devil for something gone wrong or 'its God's plan' I gained weight? God loves me like this. Health as well. You get diabetes.. oh it's the tribulation one must go through. uh, no? get off your lazy behind and lose some weight. Most of the woman are morbidly obese and fat, why? because they know their husbands can't divorce/get rid of them so easily. If the men want to move in the hierarchy (pastor, deacons, etc any role) they must be husband to one wife (open to interpretation i know) man i can go on and on with things not mentioned in ops post.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Anyone ever been in a hispanic evangelical/pentecostal church?

I haven't, but I am not surprised to hear that they promote women taking care of themselves. In several Latin American countries it is common culturally for it to be viewed as the women's job to keep their husband from straying. I believe it was Chile that I read that it is fairly common for young women to wear revealing clothes around their husbands in public, more to keep his eyes on her than to attract other men. Never visited the country so I can't speak from experience, but if it is true than it is vastly different than most western cultures.

I've noticed that denominational and regional differences do tend to skew the attractiveness of the congregations. I've found that once one moves away from the coast, the women in church become more attractive. Even more-so if it is near a conservative college, though college churches have their own issues.

[–]ExistentialEnnuii0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't promote it. It's a sin to do so. They get this from the story of Jezebel. I ache at what goes on in those churches and here in the east coast the ones that do take care of themselves are shun by the elders. It's a paradox, one I've yet to comprehend.

[–]CommonMisspellingBot-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey, ExistentialEnnuii, just a quick heads-up:
alot is actually spelled a lot. You can remember it by it is one lot, 'a lot'.
Have a nice day!

The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.

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[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Excellent thoughts here. I really enjoyed this read.

the reality in most churches is that women do not feel the need to compete for men

I think a more basic reason is that most women don't feel a compulsive need to marry within the church. I can't count the number of women who have posted on reddit, been in small groups I've led, or talk about it on women's forums - that they're with a non-Christian guy and they're struggling because they loooooove him, but he's not willing to follow basic biblical principles for living or leading the relationship. We literally just had a post on this here on this sub just the other day. Most of these women end up back together with these non-Christian men.

Why does this happen? Because the church fails to teach biblical headship. She thinks that she can keep her obligation to God separate from her obligation to her husband. If the women in the church were appropriately instructed on not being yoked together with non-believers and the fact that their obligation to their husbands is something of actual substance and not the feminist version of marriage, then (assuming these women actually follow their pastor's advice) we would see a stark change almost immediately in the number of women who become more competitive to snag those godly single men.

Shopping for a wife from outside the church (aka: importing) is generally frowned upon.

For men, yes. I have not yet seen this imperative directed toward women, or the women simply aren't getting it. There are multiples more women willing to date outside the church than men. I think this has something to do with the whole "men follow God, women follow men" thing in 1 Cor. 11:3, but I don't want to speculate too much on that.

Thus, Christian women, do not feel the need to compete with "foreign brands" in the market.

Indeed. But the men do. Yet they're also told not to step up to the plate and improve themselves; they're told to become more like women.

A highly attractive single Christian woman will be sexually pursued by men outside the church, increasing her abundance, while Christian men are largely limited to the bounds of the church in their sexual pursuits, decreasing their relative abundance.

Ah ha! And now I see that I was writing my response too early before finishing the post :p


While it seems counter-intuitive to elevate the competition, this could be a case where a rising tide lifts every boat.

My reaction to this is less about getting hotter women in the church and more toward the fact that higher SMV guys will simply have a greater influence on society for Christ. So, as a whole, regardless of whether or not it's wise to increase competition within a niche SMP, there are other reasons why this should be engaged in anyway. The fact that it also improves the quality of women we're around is an added bonus, if it actually works.

But again, as you've already noted, I'm skeptical of this potential solution because those women will still be told by the church leaders and the rest of the world that they're fine just as they are and that men should want to marry them for what's inside and shouldn't care if they're 50-100lbs overweight.


Now let me shoot one back. I have 3 daughters. Two of them are old enough to talk and even at the ages of 3 and 4 I can already tell they're going to be boy crazy someday - and they will be HOT. I don't mean to be too Donald Trump-ish in saying that, but when I look at my daughters and what they prospectively stand to be someday, they're going to be gorgeous.

They're also incredibly emotional - far worse than I ever thought possible. When hormones start kicking in to worsen this issue, if I'm raising my daughters to cultivate their beauty, what do you recommend in the way of also training them to honor and revere their purity without causing psychological damage about sexuality that my wife experienced?

My primary plan right now is simply that I be the one to satisfy their need for validation, just like our spiritual Father places himself in the place of fulfilling our need for validation instead of us looking to the world. To that end, I have already started the process of giving them that validation in small ways and training them to rely on me so that one day they will trust my judgment when I decide whether or not to give their hearts to other specific men who come in their lives. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too.

[–]OsmiumZuluMod | Tulip Peddler | Married 6y[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

First, it's important to note that I am not a father yet. Despite this, I have thought about this topic at length as I hope to have daughters some day and want to navigate this part of their upbringing with wisdom. If I do end up with daughters and they turn out anything like their mom, they will be lookers too and will likely have a lot of opportunity for unwise behavior. So in other words: I share your concern though at this point only theoretically.

what do you recommend in the way of also training them to honor and revere their purity without causing psychological damage about sexuality that my wife experienced?

I think a big part will be getting your wife on board with your vision for your daughters. From your other writings it sounds like your wife is starting to come around to embrace her sexual side, which I think is very important for your daughters to see. The most well adjusted Christian women I have met had mothers who were comfortable and into their own sexiness. I believe that if their mother can model this for them and demonstrate what it can look like in Christian marriage, then daughters will grow up knowing firsthand what an appropriate sexual outlet looks like and seek it for themselves.

That gets to another important point. I think it's important to recognize and celebrate the fact of their sexuality and how fulfilling it will be for them when they have a husband to unleash it on. I think suppression is very different from repression. In psychiatric terms, suppression is the conscious inhibition of an unacceptable impulse or idea as contrasted with repression, which is unconscious. The conscious element of it is very important. If one is consciously holding back, they can consciously let loose, whereas someone who is unconsciously holding back isn't even aware that there is something to be set loose.

A poor analogy would be training your son how to efficiently commit acts of extreme violence. You have to train him up and encourage his aggression, tenacity, and ruthlessness. At the same time you have to teach him how and when those attributes are the be channeled legitimately; in self defense or in the defense of others. Ideally, by the time he is on his own he is extremely lethal, but also extremely aware of the need for self control, wisdom, and prudence.

Edit: The way most people I've seen raise there daughters (repression, etc) would be like having extremely violence-capable sons who are taught to repress their violence, but not how to control it and use it wisely. They are never explained in full detail the consequences of indiscretion, thus it is no wonder that when they get into emotional situations they have no framework developed on what to do and act out of emotionalism, often to unwise ends.

Much more to be said about all of this, and perhaps well worth a discussion post of its own, but those are my initial overarching thoughts on the matter. As to brass tacks and tactics, there are a multitude of ways to go about doing this well and I'm sure it varies widely by child and circumstances.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks. This is good, although still a few stories up in the air and not quite as down to earth :p I like the idea of helping my wife model this for the girls. It really prompted me to think:

Christ is our groom. Generally, in biblical times the wife was at home and the groom was away to work most of the day, just as Christ is away at work in the world, leaving his bride to tend to his children - his Spirit and instruction still with us, guiding how we should raise them.

I don't really like this conclusion because it takes a lot of power out of my hands and forces me to trust my wife to pick up from my lead to lead them. But I do see that as a direct parallel to the way that God empowers his bride and trusts her rather than doing all the work himself. So, then I have to ask: am I properly leading my bride to be trustworthy? Then when the time comes do I actually trust her?

[–]Willow-girlParticipation Trophy Wife0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

They're also incredibly emotional - far worse than I ever thought possible. When hormones start kicking in to worsen this issue, if I'm raising my daughters to cultivate their beauty, what do you recommend in the way of also training them to honor and revere their purity without causing psychological damage about sexuality that my wife experienced?

In a roundabout way ... "Pretty is as pretty does." Reward good actions/behavior, not good looks.

Also I think it's good for young women to get involved in sports, so they have a metric for their bodies like strength, health, agility, etc., and not just how attractive/appealing they are to boys.

[–]Red-CuriousMod | 34M | Married 11 yrs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a good point. Thanks.

[–]ascertainsanity0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are not hypergamous. We are willing to marry across, up, or somewhat down, the ladder. A man who is a 6, while he may prefer women who are 8+, will still find a 5 to be a potential sexual partner.

If anyone is familiar with Jeremy Camp it is easy to ascertain an apparent drop down the ladder for his wife (albeit this is his second wife due to the tragic death of his first). I have always been completely puzzled by that arrangement. He is clearly a muscular, attractive, talented, famous (in christian circles) and assumingely godly man. So why did he seemingly settle in the physical attraction dept.? Has he moved on so far from "youthful desires" that he only wanted certain qualities for child raising and fidelity and was satisfied when he found that? Who knows.

However, I have also seen many secular women who are "lookers" seemingly settle for an SMV man of below or right at 7. I see this time and time again, granted it could be mostly a southern thing. Regardless, I am left to wonder, do secular women grow tired of the trash treatment by secular men, thus raising the perceived SMV of a rare secular man with decent morals/values, perhaps even raising the SMV of a christian man despite his "weird religion"? If this is a real trend, it has always tempted me to "missionary date" or something of the sort. I have had a good amount of interest from women who are loosely believers or nominally christian but clearly not sold out. It's tempting to try to work to cultivate a more authentic and dedicated faith in one of these beautiful (yet some what repulsive in regard to conduct and character) women despite the unlikelihood of it ever being thoroughly successful or wise.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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