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PhantomDream09
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 819 points20 points21 points 6 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Is that something that happens? That's horrible.
In Australia, doctors are allowed to prescribe puberty blockers (which delay the onset of puberty, and are entirely reversible afaik) to teenagers with gender dysphoria. To do anything irreversible (ie hormones of the opposite sex, or surgery, though I don't think that's ever done to teenagers here), they need a court order, which is incredibly hard to get. I think that's a very reasonable way to go about it: it's been determined to be the best course of treatment with the best outcomes, and it's not making any irreversible decisions for children who are too young to consent.
[–]theartnomad 1 points1 points1 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Same here in the UK, plus kids have to regularly see a counsellor who will talk to them about their ideas about gender, assess how genuine they’re being etc.
There have been cases of doctors prescribing under 16s (or 18s? I can’t remember what age is allowed for hormone therapy) for hormone treatment, which is against the law and they were prosecuted by the medical council as far as I’m aware.
[–]BeneGezzWitch8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It’s the same in the US. I have a family member going through the early stages of this. When he begins puberty, they’ll put him on blockers and then there are years and years of counseling before the next hormonal step can be taken. It is also addressed from a team perspective, his pediatrician, endocrinologist, and psychologist so lots of perspectives and input.
FWIW we’ve known he was a she from toddlerhood, the moment he could express an opinion. He was feminine by every available metric and has always dreamt of long hair and makeup. Exactly no one in the family was surprised when he came out.
[–]theartnomad25, LTR 3.5 years2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes I suppose our healthcare system is different in that it would just be the GP peadiatrician and counsellor, but not the endocrinologist, because our access to specialist doctors is different than in the US.
Wow. That’s good that you all knew and expected it - it’s probably a lot worse for both parties when the family doesn’t see (or pretends not to) what is going on. I watched a programme on kids who want to be a different sex and gender recently, but I think it is still so rare. Do you think its more that our collective awareness is bigger and the availability of treatment is better than before, rather than more people coming out? It’s something that’s always intrigued me - has this always been a part of humanity but was less talked about due to lack of acceptance or means to do anything about it, or is it a recent development due to particular events and sets of circumstances..
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 85 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's definitely popped up throughout various cultures over millennia. 'Third gender', 'two spirit', etc.
[–]BeneGezzWitch2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Generally in the US, you’re referred to the endocrinologist from the GP and in this rare and specific situation that’s a pretty easy get.
Honestly they were hoping he’d be gay, less stigma and fewer interventions, but the great grandma said for the first time in her life she realized lgbt people were born that way which was interesting. Their psychologist said he’s basically at no risk for suicide because he’s so supported and accepted at home which was the parents main concern.
I think true transgender-ism is still verrry rare. That said, it’s never been safer to be out so it seems like it’s a growing population. There’s a man in his 50’s transitioning on my husbands job site. I think it’s always been present and the culture has dictated acceptance. I would imagine the same percentage of the population in Iran is trans as in America but when your essential nature carries a death sentence a lot can be suppressed in the name of survival.
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 81 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Perks of a functioning healthcare system, I guess, access to counselling is vital!
I think there have been a very small couple of cases like that in Australia. Very much against the rules though.
[–]theartnomad25, LTR 3.5 years1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Functioning healthcare system haha. In some ways. It’s free and keeps the diabetics, smokers etc alive by any means, but fails a lot of younger people. Waiting lists to see any specialist (we have to go through our GP and get referred, I know in America if you pay you can just go see a dermatogologist/neurologist etc without going through a GP, I don’t know what it’s like in Aus?) are outrageous. I’m on a 2 year waiting list to see an ortho for an issue that currently could be easily solved with the correct physio and professional advice on treatment, but by the time I actually get to see a specialist I’ll probably require serious surgery. And obese patients needing hip replacements keep getting pushed in front of me. Sorry rant over haha. But yes - fairly new things like children openly wanting a sex change are handled quicker and with a lot of care, as are the elderly. I think the NHS is amazing and awful at the same time, but I guess it’s better than Any private system. Would you not get counselling in Australia if you were under 16 and wanted hormone therapy/surgery for sex change?
Yeah those cases are few and far between, I should hope!
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 81 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's so disappointing! In australia, you need the referral from the GP (which takes about 15 minutes and can be free), then you can either see a specialist privately (which you pay for, and can be quite quick), or publicly (which yeah, takes some time!). Our system isn't perfect, but it works pretty well.
[–]JustScrollOnward3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
From what I’ve read, puberty blockers have permanent repercussions.
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 88 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Minor ones, but nothing compared to the poor outcomes for trans kids who transition later in life (eg massively high rates of suicide etc).
[–]JustScrollOnward1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Are there studies on this? All I’ve read is that suicide rates are actually higher after surgery, but nothing about ages of transition.
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 85 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, not sure. There are studies saying that kids who transition early [have better outcomes than the general population], and that people who 'pass' better, ie that you can't tell are trans, have lower rates of suicide.
AFAIK the swedish research about suicide rates wasn't saying they were higher after surgery because of the surgery, but because of the lack of care provided - that is, people pre-surgery are getting loads of mental health help, but afterwards they're often mostly left to fend for themselves.
[–]JustScrollOnward0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you!
It looks like one of my links fell off, I'll see if I can find it again.
[–]JustScrollOnward1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Permanent repercussions from my understanding being an inability to develop the secondary sex characteristics needed for reproduction and along with more serious health issues due to hormonal repercussions from that. Here’s a fascinating read that might have some better info. Not trying to pretend to be an expert. https://4thwavenow.com/2017/10/25/born-in-the-right-body-introducing-4thwavenows-new-spokesperson-mom-of-a-teen-desister/
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 82 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks, that was a really interesting article. I don't think there was much in the way of medical info in there, but a lot of her points were great. And I agree, in a lot of cases it seems like there are kids who think they're trans, but in reality, it's that they've internalised these ideas that 'cars are for boys, dolls are for girls, so if i like dolls i must be a girl' and vice versa, so unpacking those will mean that they're not trans.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I grew up in a very masculine household, and there were many times I preferred to dress up as a boy. I even was surprised once when my neighbor recognized me when I was dressed like my brother and wearing a hat and sunglasses 🙄
I was also a fat little ugly duckling of a girl, so I felt more comfortable being boyish sometimes to hide my body.
I'm so glad my parents didn't encourage it, and I'm much more comfortable being my feminine self now. I can only imagine how confusing it could have been for me.
My mom encouraged other behaviors in me that in hindsight I feel were damaging (she praised me for getting drunk at a friend's house when I was 15 by saying that she was glad I was "normal", and I was the only one to not get punished for that), so I really wonder what other damage could have been done.
Just let kids be kids for crying out loud! There can be so many phases we go through throughout childhood and adolescent-hood!
[–]proprioceptorlate 20s, married 3 years4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is a good point. Granted - our current understanding of neuroscience supports the fact that people can genuinely identify as a gender different than the one that matches their genetics or external genitalia (and there are cases when even those two things don't match). However, I think there isn't always enough vetting for people considering transitioning. If you Google "transgender regret" you find lots of posts where people have undergone the surgery, and wished they hadn't months or years later. I think it is such a huge decision, It should be approched with a lot of caution, counseling, and careful decision making.
Also, as a tomboy, I'm certainly glad that I grew up in a time when no one ever questioned my gender because of it!!!! I was still a girl, I was just a girl who liked playing in the dirt!
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
i've always wondered if trans-ness could be solved in many cases by topping up with their biological gender's hormone before trying to switch it off entirely and go the other way. if john feels like a woman, surely he's low on testosterone? let's pump him full of the stuff for a while and see if he feels a little better as a man.
i agree that children should not be making these decisions at all though, i didn't realise it was a reality!
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 82 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
i didn't realise it was a reality!
I don't think it is, very often.
[–]JustScrollOnward0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Far more commonplace than most realize. Anecdotally my young relative is going through this.
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 80 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Are they getting puberty blockers, or cross-sex hormones?
[–]JustScrollOnward0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Puberty blockers and binding, as far as I know.
[–]theartnomad25, LTR 3.5 years3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Interestingly, certain sports block puberty in children. Female gymnasts peak at a young age (a lot of them 16-18) and at that point they have little in the way of breasts, a lot of them don’t have periods yet and they are all rather short. This is because of the intense training regimes from very early on in life and building a lot more muscle than most young girls would. A serious injury that would put them out of training for longer than a couple of weeks can be career ending for a female gymnast (especially power gymnasts who need to be small!) - their hormones will kick in, their height will shoot up, they will grow boobs and hips and get a little heavier. This happens especially in girls who were genetically predispositioned to growing tall but hard training and packing on muscle had suppressed that pre injury. There are, of course, many gymnasts who peak later on in life, but all depends on genetics and how puberty affects their performance. Some would get an injury, go through puberty but they were going to be short anyway and have A cup breasts, so when they go back to training they don’t see as much difference.
I think something similar can happen in young female competitive swimmers and dancers too.
[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 83 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Okay, so puberty blockers are not a big deal at all, research says that side effects are minimal, and binding is safe when done properly. While I know it can seem weird, or like the child can't make those decisions, given that they're non-permanent (if they stop taking the blockers, they'll go through puberty), it's much, much better for them to be able to delay puberty while they're working out their gender identity, than to go through puberty and then have a much, much harder time if they transition later. The researchers have worked out that the risk of mild side effects is far smaller than the risk of trans teens and young adults killing themselves (which happens a lot.). I hope your family member's treatment goes well.
Thanks! At a certain point, does it become too late? What if my relative decides they are not transgender later on, but then has passed the point for puberty?
My understanding is that they may go through a milder puberty than they otherwise would have, but otherwise should be perfectly fine. There are cases of children taking puberty blockers who've decided against transition and gone through normal puberty, iirc.
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(15)00216-5/pdf I found this while looking for an article for someone else, it's a small study (n=101) but tl:dr; john feels like a woman, but it doesn't seem to be because of low T: john also has typical testosterone levels for someone born as a man.
[–]--cunt0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alright possible long-winded rant incoming. I don't know where I find myself politically. Personally I like taking on traditional roles, I know that it is best for me. I simply dont know whats best for society at large. I read here, I read gender critical stuff as well, because I strongly disagree with the liberal feminist mindset that seems most prominent / that I agreed with in my younger years. But I think the rise of starting kids on hormones & puberty blockers is awful. I think maybe it is a result of forcing such strict gender roles in a material, fashion sort of way (vs actions)- along with a million other things of course. I think if we were more accepting of some people just dressing in a way thats gender non-conforming, they wouldnt alter their body to match the gender the see suitable. Like my best friend is trans, ftm, I dont get it. But I see how she reached that decision. From the day I met her when we were 6, she wore boys clothes and had short hair and played Pokemon. Never grew out of it despite her family's best efforts. While this might be the best path for me (and possibly the majority of people) I imagine her conservative religious mother telling her everything she liked was for boys led her to a crossroads of either giving up everything she likes, or simply becoming a boy.
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[–]teaandtalk29, married 6 years, together 819 points20 points21 points (16 children) | Copy Link
[–]theartnomad 1 points1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BeneGezzWitch8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
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