Respect, Love, and RP

Camille11325 · 2016-10-05T01:38:42+00:00

I'll answer my own questions!

I definitely agree with the idea of 2 different definitions for respect, and the gap between the two definitions causes a lot of conflict. On /r/PurplePillDebate there is a lot of confusion and miscommunication because everyone assumes that they are using the term in the same way. We see a similar thing happen in real life especially when feminists demand respect for being women and others bristle and state that respect has to be earned. I don't think that gender is the only factor that determines which of the two definitions you gravitate towards. Off the top of my head I think that being liberal/left vs conservative/right plays a role. If you can think of any other factors I'd love to hear them!
I personally don't crave admiration + deference from M, I love being loved! To me this means being cared for, protected, and shown signs of confirmation that I am enjoyable and pleasing him. I'm not sure about what I think of the phrase I quoted, which is why I wanted to hear other opinions. I suppose the simplest response is that men and women love differently, and our respect = love. But I don't like the idea that true love = male love...
I absolutely hate the idea that women are incapable of love! This is something I definitely do not agree with other RP men on. Yes a lot of women are shallow, calculating, settling, etc. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible for someone who is female to feel and demonstrate love to the man in her life. To me this is another instance of female nature being demonised instead of being recognised as different.

cats_or_get_out · 2016-10-05T07:59:15+00:00

Good food for thought. The whole "women are incapable of love" is the male equivalent of "all men are pigs."

When I hear absolutes--always, never--I listen carefully for cognitive distortions such as black and white thinking (splitting). Emotions are the driver--"Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler." (F.N.)

This does not invalidate the sentiment (eg, "all men are pigs"), but it can help us to understand the feelings and experiences and fears behind the statement.

These types of statements can serve several functions. 1). It can be a mantra to help break old patterns of thought--this can be healthy, though it is often very hamster-ish. 2) it can be an emotional armor to protect against pain 3) it can be projection, a reflection of the traits one dislikes in himself. Nothing that we despise in other men is inherently absent from ourselves. We must learn to regard people less in the light of what they do or don't do, and more in light of what they suffer. (D.B.)

I feel sad for men and women who have these defeatist views. It must be very difficult living, interacting, and connecting with others with this giant "all men are scum"/"all women are incapable of love" shield up.

Never_Evil · 2016-10-05T03:54:07+00:00

Of course I feel compelled to come out of the shadows to comment on this one, haha. So glad this topic is being discussed, thanks! I'll definitely be learning a lot from this thread.

It seems to me (and ladies pls correct me if I'm wrong) that the women who crave admiration + deference from men are also women who crave power within the male social matrix (MSM). When a woman understands that she can be just as happy and fulfilled in a relationship where she is not technically being 'respected/looked up to' by her partner, it seems that she is also admitting her submission in power.

I think the liberal/left vs conservative/right point is super interesting because your political views will hugely determine how you see the 'fair' distribution of power on economic issues. A woman who relies on the government system to provide for her (aka liberal/left) will feel justified in craving respect from the MSM because she already sees herself as having power. Idk, that might be stretching things xD Thoughts?

However, it also seems that just because a women doesn't crave power within the MSM, that doesn't mean she lacks the desire for it within the female social matrix (FSM). A woman can and will want to be respected within the FSM. And I think it's fair to say that men see high value in women who are highly respected within the FSM, but I don't know if this is a relevant point for this topic.

A question: do you think that women need to truly respect a man before they are capable of loving them? As in, there is no possible way that woman could love a man if she does not respect him first. For me at least, I keep finding that to be true.

littleeggwyf · 2016-10-05T10:01:41+00:00

Yes, common courtesy or consideration is what I find makes me feel respected - being dismissed or ignored would be the most obvious sign of disrespect, to me. I would have maybe phrased the men's version as 'authority' being the sign of respect but I think it's sort of the same. Like a respected man will have authority when he speaks or suggests a course of action.
I definitely feel loved when cherished, being looked out for and being valued and special to my husband. I think the Redpill guys are right that TOO much of this makes it not special. I had an idea writing the point above that maybe male and female loves are reflections of our respects, like women love men by giving them authority and status, whilst men give love by providing safety and extra consideration. I'm not sure, about that. I don't like the saying because I am very much in love with my husband, and it's not like I feel superior.
Completely disagree. Women can be shallow or mercenary, the golddigger is a stereotype for a reason! But women can and do stand by their man through terrible trials that anything less than love would make impossible. I think women have to be more practical at times, especially with children, and sometimes necessity means a provider is an important part of what they look for in a man. I don't like it, but it's like prostitution - I would never even possibly consider being a prostitute now, but if it was that or starvation for my daughter, then I think it would be different.

jade_cat · 2016-10-10T21:16:43+00:00

We've often said on RPW that for men, respect = admiration + deference, while for women, respect = common courtesy. Do you agree with this distinction?

Yes, I 100% agree. Those two definitions fit perfectly with their respective social matrices.

Also, the word "respect" is polysemous (has multiple meanings), therefore it is useless to fight over "which meaning is the right one". Both meanings are valid. In linguistics, respect (admiration + deference) and respect (common courtesy) would be referred to as two different "word senses". The real problem starts when two individuals have a conversation without specifying which word sense is used. That creates a lot of misunderstandings and useless conflicts. Hence the importance of clearly defining concepts prior to arguing.

Interestingly, the etymology of the word "respect" is much closer to the male definition than the female definition.

Keeping the male definition of "respect" in mind, a common idea in the manosphere is that men want to be respected and women want to be cherished. Does this line up with your experience, and/or your observations?

Yes, definitely. Whenever I hear "I want my spouse/SO to respect me" or "He/She should respect her/him more" from my friends/family/acquaintances, I ask them "What do you mean by respect?/What is your definition of respect?". When they elaborate, their explanation fits with their gender. Men say something like "She should trust him more/defer more to him" and women say something like "He should be more considerate of her".

And building off of this, what are your thoughts on the saying "respect flows upwards, love flows downwards"?

Maybe this will be a very simplistic view, and maybe I am completely off-topic, but...

When we admire someone, we look up to them. Look at the women's eyes in these pictures: 1, 2. When we think of love, especially tender, motherly love, the images that come to mind are images like these ones: 1, 2, 3. In these eyes looking down, there is a feeling of protection that emanates from them. And as we know, men are biologically enclined to protect the woman they love. This picture greatly conveys that feeling.

Finally, a lot of men on TRP, Return of Kings, and the Roosh forums don't believe that women are capable of loving a man in the way that he wants. I've seen this idea in a more subtle form ("men are the true romantics") and more extreme ("all women are calculating and view relationships purely as an exchange nothing more", "she doesn't love you it's just your turn", etc). In what ways do you agree and where do you disagree?

I agree with the fact that women, being the weaker sex, necessarily had to find other means than brute strength to achieve their goals, therefore mastering their manipulative skills. However, going from this premise to the conclusion that "women are incapable of love" is a gigantic leap. It's like saying "since men have brute strength, they will necessarily be wife beaters".

Title	Respect, Love, and RP
Author	Camille11325
Upvotes	5
Comments	15
Date	October 5, 2016 1:29 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWives
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWives/comments/55x1md/respect_love_and_rp/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWives/respect-love-and-rp.209525 https://theredarchive.com/post/209525